Peanut/Policynut? Linking-"murderbone"-to-objectives and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race.

[Pandarsenic]

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=31478

In the attempt to enforce RP by preventing casual murderbone, MRP servers have stifled traitor RP to be even more restrictive than 2014 BayStation and modern LRP servers.

HRP, 2014: You have NO objectives. You get telecrystals and absolute freedom to pursue what you think will make an interesting story for the round, as long as you justify it in an interesting way in-character and create points of interaction.

LRP, 2022: Objectives are a way to get TCs and items available, but you are free to RP whatever you want. Mad scientist or terrorist plasma flooding the station for revenge against imagined insults? Hijack the shuttle to pay off your debts? UnaRiddler asking the station to solve your puzzles, detonating a maxcap for every failed answer? Hell yeah, show them what you're made of.

MRP, 2022: Follow your objectives, or else

By strictly limiting your antagonistic actions to those that advance your goals, MRP drains antagonists of all opportunity for creativity, flexibility, dynamism, storytelling. With these policies in place, is it any wonder that Manuel is famed for antagonists who don't antagonize? What else can they do? What freedom do they have to be creative, to collaborate with each other for IC reasons, to be more than the sum of their objectives? Quiet antagonists who steal what they need and then go silent for the whole round to get greentext have always been one of the most hated types of player, accused of being a waste of the antag roll that someone else could have spent better. Were they right to be so maligned? Perhaps. Manuel shows us what happens when such a playstyle is, in effect, administratively enforced. "Boring, but practical" is exactly what it sounds like, not just for the antag player but for the whole crew.

[Itseasytosee2me]

Yeah, one of my biggest grievances with Manuel.

That being said still a rule break, so I suppose the ban is justified.

[Sylphet]

Yes, Manuel's murderbone policy is fucking awful, has a chilling effect on interesting gimmicks and emergent gameplay, and should be thrown out.

That said, it is against the rules and it would be bad if we started selectively enforcing rules.

[Stickymayhem]

That said, it is against the rules and it would be bad if we started selectively enforcing rules.

Rule 0

[RaveRadbury]

LRP, 2022: Objectives are a way to get TCs and items available, but you are free to RP whatever you want. Mad scientist or terrorist plasma flooding the station for revenge against imagined insults? Hijack the shuttle to pay off your debts? UnaRiddler asking the station to solve your puzzles, detonating a maxcap for every failed answer? Hell yeah, show them what you're made of.

MRP, 2022: Follow your objectives, or else

By strictly limiting your antagonistic actions to those that advance your goals, MRP drains antagonists of all opportunity for creativity, flexibility, dynamism, storytelling. With these policies in place, is it any wonder that Manuel is famed for antagonists who don't antagonize? What else can they do? What freedom do they have to be creative, to collaborate with each other for IC reasons, to be more than the sum of their objectives? Quiet antagonists who steal what they need and then go silent for the whole round to get greentext have always been one of the most hated types of player, accused of being a waste of the antag roll that someone else could have spent better. Were they right to be so maligned? Perhaps. Manuel shows us what happens when such a playstyle is, in effect, administratively enforced. "Boring, but practical" is exactly what it sounds like, not just for the antag player but for the whole crew.

Literally all you have to do is ahelp before you do anything big, I approve those requests all the time.

Big doubt that anyone is doing Riddler RP for their antag round on LRP. Gimme the round ID.

[Pandarsenic]

LRP, 2022: Objectives are a way to get TCs and items available, but you are free to RP whatever you want. Mad scientist or terrorist plasma flooding the station for revenge against imagined insults? Hijack the shuttle to pay off your debts? UnaRiddler asking the station to solve your puzzles, detonating a maxcap for every failed answer? Hell yeah, show them what you're made of.

MRP, 2022: Follow your objectives, or else

By strictly limiting your antagonistic actions to those that advance your goals, MRP drains antagonists of all opportunity for creativity, flexibility, dynamism, storytelling. With these policies in place, is it any wonder that Manuel is famed for antagonists who don't antagonize? What else can they do? What freedom do they have to be creative, to collaborate with each other for IC reasons, to be more than the sum of their objectives? Quiet antagonists who steal what they need and then go silent for the whole round to get greentext have always been one of the most hated types of player, accused of being a waste of the antag roll that someone else could have spent better. Were they right to be so maligned? Perhaps. Manuel shows us what happens when such a playstyle is, in effect, administratively enforced. "Boring, but practical" is exactly what it sounds like, not just for the antag player but for the whole crew.

Literally all you have to do is ahelp before you do anything big, I approve those requests all the time.

Big doubt that anyone is doing Riddler RP for their antag round on LRP. Gimme the round ID.

God I wish they were still doing it. I haven't seen that shit in over 8 years (and you had to have a small number of really good riddles, because you couldn't order more TTVs).

Manuel is where I would expect it to happen, except the server culture (player-side aversion to antagonists actually antagonizing) and the administrative defaults (murderbone rules, etc.) discourage it.

[RaveRadbury]

Manuel is where I would expect it to happen, except the server culture (player-side aversion to antagonists actually antagonizing) and the administrative defaults (murderbone rules, etc.) discourage it.

The big secret admins don't want you to know is that if you go about your antag round with enough style and novelty you can get away with quite a bit. Unfortunately so many people are sweaty for their round to happen PERFECTLY that they are unwilling to do any sort of talking or communication and then their style meter drops to 0 because everyone hates wordless kills.

I've had people be like "Can I nuke the SM" and I'm like "Can you make any sort of announcement over comms about how this is your revenge and they'll all pay for their betrayal, can you do like *any* amount of villain monologuing before you do your big thing" and once its laid out for them like that they find a way to do it and everyone has a cool time dying idk.

[Bawhoppennn]

It's really hard to deny that there's a significant group who have an large aversion to antaggery. So many people complain in deadchat/the Discord, even sometimes when it's the dang objective for the antag... Even if admins don't get involved, it's a really disheartening player atmosphere in that regard.

[Pandarsenic]

The big secret admins don't absolutely do want you to know is that if you go about your antag round with enough style and novelty you can get away with quite a bit. Unfortunately so many people are sweaty for their round to happen PERFECTLY that they are unwilling to do any sort of talking or communication and then their style meter drops to 0 because everyone hates wordless kills.

I've had people be like "Can I nuke the SM" and I'm like "Can you make any sort of announcement over comms about how this is your revenge and they'll all pay for their betrayal, can you do like *any* amount of villain monologuing before you do your big thing" and once its laid out for them like that they find a way to do it and everyone has a cool time dying idk.

The trick there ofc is that we've already selected for people who have higher aspirations than Greentext or Body Count and are receptive to a nudge in the right direction.

Honestly, I'd-

Hol' up

Idea

Going straight to the ideas forum I'm a genius brb

[Boot]

Literally all you have to do is ahelp before you do anything big, I approve those requests all the time.

Big doubt that anyone is doing Riddler RP for their antag round on LRP. Gimme the round ID.

"If you wanna have fun you better ask the jannies or ELSE". Manuel is a mistake.

[RaveRadbury]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWHRB98McEc

[Itseasytosee2me]

The system would be perfect if admins were eternally active and focused omniscient paragons of fun. Until then, it will always be at least a little limiting.

[wesoda25]

LRP, 2022: Objectives are a way to get TCs and items available, but you are free to RP whatever you want. Mad scientist or terrorist plasma flooding the station for revenge against imagined insults? Hijack the shuttle to pay off your debts? UnaRiddler asking the station to solve your puzzles, detonating a maxcap for every failed answer? Hell yeah, show them what you're made of.

MRP, 2022: Follow your objectives, or else

By strictly limiting your antagonistic actions to those that advance your goals, MRP drains antagonists of all opportunity for creativity, flexibility, dynamism, storytelling. With these policies in place, is it any wonder that Manuel is famed for antagonists who don't antagonize? What else can they do? What freedom do they have to be creative, to collaborate with each other for IC reasons, to be more than the sum of their objectives? Quiet antagonists who steal what they need and then go silent for the whole round to get greentext have always been one of the most hated types of player, accused of being a waste of the antag roll that someone else could have spent better. Were they right to be so maligned? Perhaps. Manuel shows us what happens when such a playstyle is, in effect, administratively enforced. "Boring, but practical" is exactly what it sounds like, not just for the antag player but for the whole crew.

Literally all you have to do is ahelp before you do anything big, I approve those requests all the time.

Big doubt that anyone is doing Riddler RP for their antag round on LRP. Gimme the round ID.

I did it on sybil a long while ago.

[RaveRadbury]

LRP, 2022: Objectives are a way to get TCs and items available, but you are free to RP whatever you want. Mad scientist or terrorist plasma flooding the station for revenge against imagined insults? Hijack the shuttle to pay off your debts? UnaRiddler asking the station to solve your puzzles, detonating a maxcap for every failed answer? Hell yeah, show them what you're made of.

MRP, 2022: Follow your objectives, or else

By strictly limiting your antagonistic actions to those that advance your goals, MRP drains antagonists of all opportunity for creativity, flexibility, dynamism, storytelling. With these policies in place, is it any wonder that Manuel is famed for antagonists who don't antagonize? What else can they do? What freedom do they have to be creative, to collaborate with each other for IC reasons, to be more than the sum of their objectives? Quiet antagonists who steal what they need and then go silent for the whole round to get greentext have always been one of the most hated types of player, accused of being a waste of the antag roll that someone else could have spent better. Were they right to be so maligned? Perhaps. Manuel shows us what happens when such a playstyle is, in effect, administratively enforced. "Boring, but practical" is exactly what it sounds like, not just for the antag player but for the whole crew.

Literally all you have to do is ahelp before you do anything big, I approve those requests all the time.

Big doubt that anyone is doing Riddler RP for their antag round on LRP. Gimme the round ID.

I did it on sybil a long while ago.

Headmin this man.

[wesoda25]

Thats a nice thing to say thanks

I should say though it really wasn’t anything that unique at the time. Gimmicks on lrp can be difficult due to the culture of powergaming but hopefully that new rp rule gives people a bit more breathing room with their antag rounds

[datorangebottle]

Would it be so bad if we just said, "You can get away with killing like five people with little justification, but any more than that and it better be related to your objectives."?

[Pandarsenic]

That wouldn't solve the problem, it would just create more of this weird tangle of rulings.

I think viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31482 would be a good balance of being sure antags kill with a purpose, TELLING everyone that purpose, and giving them that freedom (but also putting them under scrutiny if their reason is something stupid like "lol kill them all")

I'm a big proponent of "every kill should be for an actual reason, but there should be no shortage of kills." Plus, prompting for a gimmick means (hopefully) giving people something to interact with.

[Stickymayhem]

That wouldn't solve the problem, it would just create more of this weird tangle of rulings.

I think viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31482 would be a good balance of being sure antags kill with a purpose, TELLING everyone that purpose, and giving them that freedom (but also putting them under scrutiny if their reason is something stupid like "lol kill them all")

I'm a big proponent of "every kill should be for an actual reason, but there should be no shortage of kills." Plus, prompting for a gimmick means (hopefully) giving people something to interact with.

I wish there was some way to get the vibe correct and the vibe is the following:

If you're fucking boring you get to kill less people than if you're creative.

But when it comes down to it this basically amounts to "Unlimited freedom for cool people and minimal freedom to lame people" which is dumb

I dunno I wish we just did more short sharp bans to curb annoying repeat behaviours from the minority that makes things unfun by abusing stuff.

[Pandarsenic]

I wish there was some way to get the vibe correct and the vibe is the following:

If you're fucking boring you get to kill less people than if you're creative.

But when it comes down to it this basically amounts to "Unlimited freedom for cool people and minimal freedom to lame people" which is dumb

This has always kind of been the case, though, including that IMO historically admins clearly knew that some players were Good and would do cool things, but others were just kind of Assholes and they wouldn't do anything fun or exciting or creative. It was just a Known Thing, not just to the admin team but to the players, and you can't shut that info out.

The simple fact is admins are humans who can't help making those observations of the impacts that these players have on the rounds they're in. It's more fun to watch something like "Two assistants made a containment field with 40 tesla balls on the bridge and the field just got breached and now the entire station is being fucking bodied by a poorly thought out megaproject and someone whose objective was to steal a jetpack" compared to, say, "Parapen my target, C4, later nerds! Time to figure out what to do with the rest of my TC." It's more fun to DIE to that kind of unexpected catastrophe than by some boring "Traitor poked me, gibbed me, and did nothing for the next 40 minutes."

Even though Progtraitor pushes them to do STUFF constantly, that stuff still doesn't need to be interesting to anyone. It's all too easy to just be "I do what I have to until I get more TCs for new toys."

[Annihilite111]

Literally all you have to do is ahelp before you do anything big, I approve those requests all the time.

Big doubt that anyone is doing Riddler RP for their antag round on LRP. Gimme the round ID.

My ADHD-afflicted peabrain is straining it's limit as it is whenever i play an antag role. Having to juggle a conversation in ahelps on top of that would likely send it over the edge and see my plans tumble to the ground like bowling pins. Also, antag rolls are already RNGy enough. If i now also have to roll an admin who will agree to my gimmick, i'm effectively having to roll positive twice in a row for a fun round.
I've asked for new thief objectives twice, and had my ahelp rejected one of those times. I don't think that speaks much for the viability of tying fun, creative antag rounds to admin mandate.

[nianjiilical]

to be fair if security is robust they can just flash the borgs and cut the cams and trying to stop them from harming just gets your borgs locked down and your laws changed

[Pandarsenic]

to be fair if security is robust they can just flash the borgs and cut the cams and trying to stop them from harming just gets your borgs locked down and your laws changed

Hey buddy, I think you've got the wrong door. The silicon thread is two blocks down

[datorangebottle]

That wouldn't solve the problem, it would just create more of this weird tangle of rulings.

I don't see how that makes rulings more complicated if all the previous definitions of 'who can or can't murderbone and when does that change' get swept away by 'just don't commit mass murder without a really good reason, okay?'. Maybe I'm not thinking about this hard enough.

[RaveRadbury]

My ADHD-afflicted peabrain is straining it's limit as it is whenever i play an antag role. Having to juggle a conversation in ahelps on top of that would likely send it over the edge and see my plans tumble to the ground like bowling pins. Also, antag rolls are already RNGy enough. If i now also have to roll an admin who will agree to my gimmick, i'm effectively having to roll positive twice in a row for a fun round.
I've asked for new thief objectives twice, and had my ahelp rejected one of those times. I don't think that speaks much for the viability of tying fun, creative antag rounds to admin mandate.

You're too focused on having ideal rounds, this is the kind of stuff that causes people to burn out.

Try to go with the flow more.

[YBS]

I will make it public knowledge right now that if a traitor wants to have a thematic gimmick that I will sponsor them directly.

I will even write up something if they aren't feeling imaginative, then reward them for following essentially cosmetic objectives.

And if you are on MRP and want to do these things, I will Rule 0 the whole thing and fistfight other admins in the parking lot over protecting creative freedom.

[datorangebottle]

I will make it public knowledge right now that if a traitor wants to have a thematic gimmick that I will sponsor them directly.

I will even write up something if they aren't feeling imaginative, then reward them for following essentially cosmetic objectives.

And if you are on MRP and want to do these things, I will Rule 0 the whole thing and fistfight other admins in the parking lot over protecting creative freedom.

I'm putting 20 bucks on Plapatin. Anyone else want to bet?

[Kendrickorium]

i'm confused what the problem is, just play on bagil or sybil

i'm assuming the people that play on manuel with it's strict rules WANT to be there and play that way

[massa]

fuck bro

his name is Gon Dola

we need guys like that on sybil... all his actions were based. Gon, you can run free, frolic in our green pastures, on Sybil. You don't have to live in 1984 anymore.

Come home.

[Sylphet]

I will make it public knowledge right now that if a traitor wants to have a thematic gimmick that I will sponsor them directly.

I will even write up something if they aren't feeling imaginative, then reward them for following essentially cosmetic objectives.

And if you are on MRP and want to do these things, I will Rule 0 the whole thing and fistfight other admins in the parking lot over protecting creative freedom.

+1 to this. If you have a gimmick, I will back it up. I might even go for turning it into an event.

[nianjiilical]

to be fair if security is robust they can just flash the borgs and cut the cams and trying to stop them from harming just gets your borgs locked down and your laws changed

Hey buddy, I think you've got the wrong door. The silicon thread is two blocks down

i need to not post when sleep deprived

[sinfulbliss]

The odd thing about this ban is the admin chose to, for whatever reason, mention the CE and Hates who “came at him” in the rationale.

If I am hacking into the cap office from bridge and the CE teleports into bridge, aren’t you allowed to kill the CE even under MRP rules? And if Hates “came at them,” they can kill them too right? I’m not sure why these scenarios were listed, just leave it at the two other situations where there was seemingly no reason to kill (robo and engi).

[massa]

The odd thing about this ban is the admin chose to, for whatever reason, mention the CE and Hates who “came at him” in the rationale.

If I am hacking into the cap office from bridge and the CE teleports into bridge, aren’t you allowed to kill the CE even under MRP rules? And if Hates “came at them,” they can kill them too right? I’m not sure why these scenarios were listed, just leave it at the two other situations where there was seemingly no reason to kill (robo and engi).

Homeboy had no option here.

Also, rule 0. Mannymins be wildin.