"Controversial" changes: the thread

[Timonk]

I'm sick of it.
Example: belt pr getting merged.
Despite getting argumented and voted into the ground, it still manages to get merged. Why? A certain John "Fulp" Willard thought it was good.
After that in the same thread, someone said "nerfs are going to be controversial" NO. NOT LIKE THAT.
The only controversy that was in this thread was coders threatening to merge it against the will of people who actually have to play with it.
Good Controversy entails a healthy debate with good arguments on both sides. In this case one's side was "guh realism" and then the other side proved that your changes aren't realism but bogus, then stacked multiple other arguments on top. But guess what?? It got merged anyway.
Then there is the argument of "but muh RP!!"
yes, ss13 is an RP game, of sorts.
But stop trying to fit it into the singular category of "Space RP". It is so much more. If you want to make it like that, you might as well remove the gameplay and make it chat only. Touching grass might help too.
Categories you might fit ss13 into: Action, Roleplay, 2D, Simulation, Multiplayer
But no, instead we chose to confine it to the roleplaying aspect.
Stop trying to force the playerbase to play by your rules. How about you play by the playerbases rules instead? Or at least a healthy balance to hold up order. Why force tg to become more and more roleplay only if the playerbases enjoys the action based factor more?

[Shadowflame909]

so true timonk

i'd add another genre. Atmos sim.

This game is like if someone turned the hub world from roblox/gmod/byond into a game and then allowed you to sabotage that hub world preventing people from playing the games within the main game.

ss13, especially on /tg/station with lavaland, surgeries, atmos setups, slime ranching, farming, court cases, prison breaks, and cooking is just a really big onion

And whenever a pr comes along that does a blanket change to this onion everyone suffers for it in different ways.

[Rohen_Tahir]

skill issue

[iamgoofball]

Stop trying to force the playerbase to play by your rules. How about you play by the playerbases rules instead?

learn to code then

[chocolate_bickie]

TG has reached the point where they are willing to merge multiple goof pr's each month.

Also as Orange has said, what players think dosen't and never has mattered.

Admins and coders will do what they want and if they are feeling generous, might acknowledge your complaints.

[iain0]

Fucking medical tools take silver to print, and unlike engineering, medics neither start with belts, or a full tool kit, and there's never enough on any station to supply a well sized medical department.

Just why. The problem this was designed to solve I never even saw as a problem, but all this does is screw over MDs for the first 10-15 minutes of the round until mining get some silver in (good luck if you have no miners, dismantling surgical tables yields very unusable ammounts of silver). And once the silver is in, its the same as it always used to be (the PR being because too many random assistants print surgical tools? apparently? never seen the issue. so now assistants just come back at 10 min when the minings done. that REALLY fixed that problem didn't it. literally the only people it bothers are those who have time sensitive / shift start requirements on tools. I.E. MEDICAL).

Also my belt slot is for my defib so I guess I'm going to need to hoard boxes. Invest in boxes today. Until they get nerfed and then fuck knows what we're supposed to do.



Getting other people to fix/do things is an MRP thing. Trying to enforce it purely mechanically without any coded incentive for the other party to do things is going to fail hard on many servers, just like thermomachine ballast or the old medical research before medical basically got domain over it. These things just don't work out in practise. The person who "should" be doing the job needs to do the job, and code can't enforce this, only server policy can, and this entire thing abot people carrying too much stuff or doing too many things is ALSO server policy. Why enforce the limitation, and not any incentive, via code? Ultimately this is best left a server policy choice based on RP level. Trying to force this stuff via code just leads to situations where things become unworkable, unusable or just never done (like thermomachines/med research there)

Just genuinely question what people think they're "improving" sometimes, rather seems like just trying to limit the game to fit their idea of a goal, but can only work on a server that plays "like that ideal" in the first place.

[blackdav123]

Interdepartmental cooperation is great until that cooperation becomes entirely mandatory and also there are good odds that the people you are relying on to mine silver or fix shit are the very traitors sabotaging everything. I recall one of the arguments for limited storage space being "if you really want to hoard materials in your bag as an engineer just get a construction bag", and yet now an engineer cant have tools and a bag, ignoring the fact that construction bags dont hold anything useful for constructing.

[NoxVS]

Here's another awful change they made despite 148 downvotes, the most any PR has received - They completely removed cloning from the game. I don't get why they keep doing these unpopular changes that no one wanted, and if they keep it up this server is going to be dead before 2021 rolls around.

[Turbonerd]

I am so sick of this negativity meta going around in the SS13 community. None of this fucking matters. Pointless complaining over any change for no reason.

[Jackraxxus]

I agree with OP. I would go so far as to argue that the points made in the original post are in fact "hella based".
While the changes to belts do not affect me personally (Average silicon enjoyer) I'm worried it will be continuation and reinforcement of the poor practice of the codebase to disregard feedback.
While most of the negativity on the PR OP specifies I assume was speculation (?, at the very least initially) as to what the change would be like, I would like to see that if the change pans out to be an error, coders will go back and revert the change. It happened fairly recently (and is currently happening somewhat with buckshot) I'm pretty sure so it's not entirely unprecedented.
While coders often claim that the playerbase are the playtesters it seems (to me, at least) that they don't often care about the results.

[iain0]

Here's another awful change they made despite 148 downvotes, the most any PR has received - They completely removed cloning from the game. I don't get why they keep doing these unpopular changes that no one wanted, and if they keep it up this server is going to be dead before 2021 rolls around.

Pulling a conclusion from a sample size of one shouldn't need much explanation as flawed.

Also with cloning, there was an indirect benefit - giving medical a job - the negative feedback and concern was that it would ruin the rounds by making mortality too problematic. This didn't happen. But at least there was a decent positive reason.

What's anyone gaining by making surgical tools unobtainable only at round start? Or crowbarring atmos into cryo? Or limiting belts from going in bags? How does this lead to improvements in the game (given LRP servers are simply never going to be driven by 'someone else wants me to do something i have no motivating actual reason to do')

[Timonk]

Stop trying to force the playerbase to play by your rules. How about you play by the playerbases rules instead?

learn to code then

Assuming i would open a PR to revert the belt pr right now, do you think it would get merged?

[Timonk]

I am so sick of this negativity meta going around in the SS13 community. None of this fucking matters. Pointless complaining over any change for no reason.

It doesnt matter because they don't listen. That's my problem.

[NoxVS]

Pulling a conclusion from a sample size of one shouldn't need much explanation as flawed.

Here's another awful change they made despite 135 downvotes to only 3 upvotes - They removed the tesla and singularity engines except through supermatter delaminations. I don't get why they keep doing these unpopular changes that no one wanted, and if they keep it up this server is going to be dead before 2021 rolls around.

Here's another awful change they made despite 84 downvotes - They replaced intents with combat mode. I don't get why they keep doing these unpopular changes that no one wanted, and if they keep it up this server is going to be dead before 2022 rolls around.

Here's another awful change they made despite 63 downvotes - They removed circuits. I don't get why they keep doing these unpopular changes that no one wanted, and if they keep it up this server is going to be dead before 2019 rolls around.

Here's another awful change they made despite 58 downvotes - They added gender neutral preferences. I don't get why they keep doing these unpopular changes that no one wanted, and if they keep it up this server is going to be dead before 2020 rolls around.

Here's another awful change they made despite 55 downvotes - They added pride pins to the game. I don't get why they keep doing these unpopular changes that no one wanted, and if they keep it up this server is going to be dead before 2022 rolls around.

Here's another awful change they made despite 53 downvotes - They removed tasers from the game. I don't get why they keep doing these unpopular changes that no one wanted, and if they keep it up this server is going to be dead before 2020 rolls around.

Here's another awful change they made despite 52 downvotes - They removed null crates from the game. I don't get why they keep doing these unpopular changes that no one wanted, and if they keep it up this server is going to be dead before 2020 rolls around.

Here's another awful change they made despite 51 downvotes - They removed stasis beds from the game. I don't get why they keep doing these unpopular changes that no one wanted, and if they keep it up this server is going to be dead before 2020 rolls around.

[massa]

Stop trying to force the playerbase to play by your rules. How about you play by the playerbases rules instead?

learn to code then

why would you run the ship aground and tell everyone to just learn to drive better when you're the person who has the experience required not to deliberately run it aground

[Timonk]

Pulling a conclusion from a sample size of one shouldn't need much explanation as flawed.

Here's another awful change they made despite 135 downvotes to only 3 upvotes - They removed the tesla and singularity engines except through supermatter delaminations. I don't get why they keep doing these unpopular changes that no one wanted, and if they keep it up this server is going to be dead before 2021 rolls around.

Here's another awful change they made despite 84 downvotes - They replaced intents with combat mode. I don't get why they keep doing these unpopular changes that no one wanted, and if they keep it up this server is going to be dead before 2022 rolls around.

Here's another awful change they made despite 63 downvotes - They removed circuits. I don't get why they keep doing these unpopular changes that no one wanted, and if they keep it up this server is going to be dead before 2019 rolls around.

Here's another awful change they made despite 58 downvotes - They added gender neutral preferences. I don't get why they keep doing these unpopular changes that no one wanted, and if they keep it up this server is going to be dead before 2020 rolls around.

Here's another awful change they made despite 55 downvotes - They added pride pins to the game. I don't get why they keep doing these unpopular changes that no one wanted, and if they keep it up this server is going to be dead before 2022 rolls around.

Here's another awful change they made despite 53 downvotes - They removed tasers from the game. I don't get why they keep doing these unpopular changes that no one wanted, and if they keep it up this server is going to be dead before 2020 rolls around.

Here's another awful change they made despite 52 downvotes - They removed null crates from the game. I don't get why they keep doing these unpopular changes that no one wanted, and if they keep it up this server is going to be dead before 2020 rolls around.

Here's another awful change they made despite 51 downvotes - They removed stasis beds from the game. I don't get why they keep doing these unpopular changes that no one wanted, and if they keep it up this server is going to be dead before 2020 rolls around.

Other than null crates and circuits all of these changes turned out to be good.

[Kendrickorium]

Stop trying to force the playerbase to play by your rules. How about you play by the playerbases rules instead?

learn to code then

if someone offered to build me a house for free and did a shitty fucking job i'd probably tell them they did a shitty fucking job and find someone else to build me a house

maybe we need new coders? maybe we should start a gofundme for stoned one to hire new coders? I wonder how much money it would raise, goof? any guesses as to how much money all the people complaining about changes they dont want could raise, goof?

[Kendrickorium]

Here's another awful change they made despite 148 downvotes, the most any PR has received - They completely removed cloning from the game. I don't get why they keep doing these unpopular changes that no one wanted, and if they keep it up this server is going to be dead before 2021 rolls around.

the removal of cloning was an ironic amazing change that has made the game much better for all, don't @me

[Kendrickorium]

Here's another awful change they made despite 148 downvotes, the most any PR has received - They completely removed cloning from the game. I don't get why they keep doing these unpopular changes that no one wanted, and if they keep it up this server is going to be dead before 2021 rolls around.

the removal of cloning was an ironic amazing change that has made the game much better for all, don't @me

nevermind i see what you did there

[Kendrickorium]

Pulling a conclusion from a sample size of one shouldn't need much explanation as flawed.

Here's another awful change they made despite 135 downvotes to only 3 upvotes - They removed the tesla and singularity engines except through supermatter delaminations. I don't get why they keep doing these unpopular changes that no one wanted, and if they keep it up this server is going to be dead before 2021 rolls around.

Here's another awful change they made despite 84 downvotes - They replaced intents with combat mode. I don't get why they keep doing these unpopular changes that no one wanted, and if they keep it up this server is going to be dead before 2022 rolls around.

Here's another awful change they made despite 63 downvotes - They removed circuits. I don't get why they keep doing these unpopular changes that no one wanted, and if they keep it up this server is going to be dead before 2019 rolls around.

Here's another awful change they made despite 58 downvotes - They added gender neutral preferences. I don't get why they keep doing these unpopular changes that no one wanted, and if they keep it up this server is going to be dead before 2020 rolls around.

Here's another awful change they made despite 55 downvotes - They added pride pins to the game. I don't get why they keep doing these unpopular changes that no one wanted, and if they keep it up this server is going to be dead before 2022 rolls around.

Here's another awful change they made despite 53 downvotes - They removed tasers from the game. I don't get why they keep doing these unpopular changes that no one wanted, and if they keep it up this server is going to be dead before 2020 rolls around.

Here's another awful change they made despite 52 downvotes - They removed null crates from the game. I don't get why they keep doing these unpopular changes that no one wanted, and if they keep it up this server is going to be dead before 2020 rolls around.

Here's another awful change they made despite 51 downvotes - They removed stasis beds from the game. I don't get why they keep doing these unpopular changes that no one wanted, and if they keep it up this server is going to be dead before 2020 rolls around.

the removal of null crates was and is still horseshit.
don't forget they removed swarmers for the simple reason of "it's twwoo gwiefy"

[Kendrickorium]

my name is gupta and thank you for attending my ted talk

[Rohen_Tahir]

Posting this to prevent Kendrickorium from sextupleposting

[Kendrickorium]

i dont know how gupta does it i need a nap now

[Rohen_Tahir]

gupta did 9/11

[Pandarsenic]

Stop trying to force the playerbase to play by your rules. How about you play by the playerbases rules instead?

learn to code then

You first

[iamgoofball]

Stop trying to force the playerbase to play by your rules. How about you play by the playerbases rules instead?

learn to code then

if someone offered to build me a house for free and did a shitty fucking job i'd probably tell them they did a shitty fucking job and find someone else to build me a house

maybe we need new coders? maybe we should start a gofundme for stoned one to hire new coders? I wonder how much money it would raise, goof? any guesses as to how much money all the people complaining about changes they dont want could raise, goof?

hey if you wanna pay me to not code then sure

[Pandarsenic]

Stop trying to force the playerbase to play by your rules. How about you play by the playerbases rules instead?

learn to code then

You first

Disclaimer, I don't even dislike you or all the stuff you do, I just couldn't resist saying that any longer, that post isn't representative of my real feelings.

[Timonk]

Stop trying to force the playerbase to play by your rules. How about you play by the playerbases rules instead?

learn to code then

if someone offered to build me a house for free and did a shitty fucking job i'd probably tell them they did a shitty fucking job and find someone else to build me a house

maybe we need new coders? maybe we should start a gofundme for stoned one to hire new coders? I wonder how much money it would raise, goof? any guesses as to how much money all the people complaining about changes they dont want could raise, goof?

hey if you wanna pay me to not code then sure

Would you pay me not to shit on your doorstep every morning

[Indie-ana Jones]

I think public opinion should matter to some extent. Who do you make the game for if not the players themselves? I think the issue is that the playerbase has become very divided in the way they play, so any change you propose is going to sound good to someone, and you also have to understand that there's people outside the github lurkers who have opinions on things too. I will say I think that some coders have a mentality of "programming for the playerbase I want, fuck anyone else" mentality though, which I think is simply no way to go about things.

[Annihilite111]

Xenobio nerf. Nanites removal. Future second xenobio nerf. Genetics nerf (okay fine thermals and lasers were cringe). Botany nerf. Circuit removal and gutted reimplementation.

And yes, Null crates.

Traitor kits removal. Nightmare rework. Progtot. Swarmer removal. Various removals from the uplink.

Coders have been methodically removing anything that can be used to powergame AKA anything strong except batong. We are thus forced into a stale meta of combat being about two identically performing spacemen competing to click eachother once and end the fight. A game where half the jobs have ways of becoming demigods of robustness, each in a unique and interesting way, is WAY more engaging than one where both crew and antags are fucking hard-limited into a certain range of power. I play ss13 for the unprecedented freedom it offers and while that freedom still exists, coders seem to be dead set on forcing me into the niche i roll roundstart. Antags and crew are both being restricted in how far outside their "class" they can reach, and considering that both genetics, xenobio and botany are on the chopping block im not seeing any improvements to the sotuation in the future. I know for a fact that new xenobio is going to be utterly neutered compared to its current version, which will of course make it unuseable for clever and creative gimmicks for both crew and antags.
The current maintainers seem to have this baffling belief that anything that makes you more powerful than what you can get easily as crew/your antag type is bad, when it just results in a more predictable, stale experience for everyone.

I'm not gonna remember the 1000th desworder, but the madman who made a space xenobio lair and is churning out xenobio mobs and golems on an industrial scale and teleporting them onto the station is gonna stick in my head.
Fucking stop removing the interesting stuff

[Shadowflame909]

Yes. The playerbase who loves the RP but hates the action packed part of this game will be pleased at any set of limitations to jobs, all the way to removals of several departments worth of content, and vice versa

Game appeals to too many different groups.

We must merge MRP and LRP and have the newly formed and forcably combined playerbases hash it out until one type of player remains. Or it gives birth to a hybrid robust and roleplaying playerbase.

[Tearling]

Stop trying to force the playerbase to play by your rules. How about you play by the playerbases rules instead?

learn to code then

Assuming i would open a PR to revert the belt pr right now, do you think it would get merged?

Try it, and when it doesn't work, use that instead of a hypothetical. Though I agree, you shouldn't just threaten it, go do it.

[oranges]

You have one vote when it comes to development, and that's choosing to play or not to play

if the bad changes overwhelm the good, leave

if they don't, stay and stop worrying so much about this crap

if the playerbase disappears, you were right

if it doesn't, you were wrong

Sticking around and being upset constantly about things you have no control over will just turn you miserable and twisted and make everyone dislike you

[Kendrickorium]

Stop trying to force the playerbase to play by your rules. How about you play by the playerbases rules instead?

learn to code then

if someone offered to build me a house for free and did a shitty fucking job i'd probably tell them they did a shitty fucking job and find someone else to build me a house

maybe we need new coders? maybe we should start a gofundme for stoned one to hire new coders? I wonder how much money it would raise, goof? any guesses as to how much money all the people complaining about changes they dont want could raise, goof?

hey if you wanna pay me to not code then sure

tempting

[Kendrickorium]

You have one vote when it comes to development, and that's choosing to play or not to play

if the bad changes overwhelm the good, leave

if they don't, stay and stop worrying so much about this crap

if the playerbase disappears, you were right

if it doesn't, you were wrong

Sticking around and being upset constantly about things you have no control over will just turn you miserable and twisted and make everyone dislike you

I think the current game industry proves that people are fucking morons and will play literally anything no matter how fucking stale boring and mindless it is, given that it's multiplayer.
you could take /tg/ and over the years remove all weapons except for stun batons and it would still be popular.
the above poster was right. the game is being gutted. things are continually taken away with nothing added in its place. it doesnt take a genius to know that this is a bad thing.

[Shadowflame909]

Xenobio nerf. Nanites removal. Future second xenobio nerf. Genetics nerf (okay fine thermals and lasers were cringe). Botany nerf. Circuit removal and gutted reimplementation.

I'm not gonna remember the 1000th desworder, but the madman who made a space xenobio lair and is churning out xenobio mobs and golems on an industrial scale and teleporting them onto the station is gonna stick in my head.
Fucking stop removing the interesting stuff

I would also like to say is that my most fun memory from this game is fighting a ling with a standard holopara in space (still possible) with a virology fleshmend tier outhealing space damage virus in ash drake armor with a hierophant club (no longer possible)

It was truly a moment of nanotransen vs syndicate. But with all these fun gadgets of survival the crew gets being locked away and soft removed (toxins gating) or hard removed it feels like nanotransen isn't meant to compare to the enemies of command anymore. Not even in late-game.

Servers kind of forced itself from a self-competing sandbox to a strictly and tightly well-managed RP game by a DM (the admins interfering with the power of god whenever the antags turn the crew sideways too much.)

We had tools that used to wipe out antags! Remember beam rifles ohkoing blob? Combining two bags of holdings to kill the wizard? Bomb Spears? (literally just got nerfed last week)

Now we just get turned sideways and have to salt in deadchat until the admin takes pity on the playerbase and spawns a deathsquad or code red ert that uses their admin only tools to turn the antag into paste.

It's more restricted and more narrow. If the game can influence its coders. Then the syndicate have taken over nanotransen and installed dummy puppets to weaken it while keeping them tough

Edit: Worst part is no one is happy! Not the LRP players who get their playstyles clamped down upon. Or the MRP players who would rather not see any destruction at all, as the game is more of a backdrop for their chats with other players. A job sim if you will.

[oranges]

You have one vote when it comes to development, and that's choosing to play or not to play

if the bad changes overwhelm the good, leave

if they don't, stay and stop worrying so much about this crap

if the playerbase disappears, you were right

if it doesn't, you were wrong

Sticking around and being upset constantly about things you have no control over will just turn you miserable and twisted and make everyone dislike you

I think the current game industry proves that people are fucking morons and will play literally anything no matter how fucking stale boring and mindless it is, given that it's multiplayer.
you could take /tg/ and over the years remove all weapons except for stun batons and it would still be popular.
the above poster was right. the game is being gutted. things are continually taken away with nothing added in its place. it doesnt take a genius to know that this is a bad thing.

you know where the door is

[Misdoubtful]

I mean, there are servers that preserve the state of the game from six years ago, if someone really wants a trip down memory lane.

[Timonk]

You have one vote when it comes to development, and that's choosing to play or not to play

if the bad changes overwhelm the good, leave

if they don't, stay and stop worrying so much about this crap

if the playerbase disappears, you were right

if it doesn't, you were wrong

Sticking around and being upset constantly about things you have no control over will just turn you miserable and twisted and make everyone dislike you

"I don't like our current president"
"lol just move away then if you don't like him that much, try liking him for a change maybe you won't be so hateful then"

[TheFinalPotato]

The president is a dictator for life who is choosing other replacement dictators who agree with him, and has been for the last 4 years.
Why do you think this will change.

[Boot]

You have one vote when it comes to development, and that's choosing to play or not to play

if the bad changes overwhelm the good, leave

if they don't, stay and stop worrying so much about this crap

if the playerbase disappears, you were right

if it doesn't, you were wrong

Sticking around and being upset constantly about things you have no control over will just turn you miserable and twisted and make everyone dislike you

You know I thought about it but I think I'll just stick around and keep on bitching that you guys are ruining the game instead.

[oranges]

your funeral

[oranges]

You have one vote when it comes to development, and that's choosing to play or not to play

if the bad changes overwhelm the good, leave

if they don't, stay and stop worrying so much about this crap

if the playerbase disappears, you were right

if it doesn't, you were wrong

Sticking around and being upset constantly about things you have no control over will just turn you miserable and twisted and make everyone dislike you

"I don't like our current president"
"lol just move away then if you don't like him that much, try liking him for a change maybe you won't be so hateful then"

comparing switching servers to moving countries is a new one

[Farquaar]

I miss the singulo engine bros

[Iatots]

Add everything back in but remove all types of portable radio
that will return the fear of god in people.

[Farquaar]

Add everything back in but remove all types of portable radio
that will return the fear of god in people.

Remove all radios
Make it so only the PA system can be used for stationwide communication
Make the station ~50% smaller (no more empty space- hallways should be used very sparingly and should be no wider than two tiles)
Make combat quick and lethal, especially if you're caught unaware
Everyone should be regularly forced into close proximity with other people and they should be terrified of that fact.

[Timonk]

You have one vote when it comes to development, and that's choosing to play or not to play

if the bad changes overwhelm the good, leave

if they don't, stay and stop worrying so much about this crap

if the playerbase disappears, you were right

if it doesn't, you were wrong

Sticking around and being upset constantly about things you have no control over will just turn you miserable and twisted and make everyone dislike you

"I don't like our current president"
"lol just move away then if you don't like him that much, try liking him for a change maybe you won't be so hateful then"

comparing switching servers to moving countries is a new one

If you think about it, it isn't that farfetched
By this point I've been on tg for almost 4 years, I've never consistently played on any other server, i think i would have trouble getting accustomed to the new codebase and community, since i know 0 people and have no one to talk to
But eventually something will drive me away, like the removal of metastation or something

[oranges]

they all use tgstation there's no differences

[wesoda25]

I didn’t read the belt pr really but I think it’s a good idea because its a step toward keeping people from having a well optimized inventory, and instead making them pick and choose what to carry.

Perhaps your decision to leave behind the captains saber for a toolbelt will be a good one when the AI tries to bolt you in a room and kill you. Or maybe you’ll regret it when you get attacked by some other sort of antag.

Course, in and of itself this doesn’t achieve much. There’s many other ways to carry around everything you could possibly need.

[chocolate_bickie]

I didn’t read the belt pr really but I think it’s a good idea because its a step toward keeping people from having a well optimized inventory, and instead making them pick and choose what to carry.

Perhaps your decision to leave behind the captains saber for a toolbelt will be a good one when the AI tries to bolt you in a room and kill you. Or maybe you’ll regret it when you get attacked by some other sort of antag.

Course, in and of itself this doesn’t achieve much. There’s many other ways to carry around everything you could possibly need.

The only weapon a true spaceman needs is a refueled welder and a screwdriver aimed at the eye.