Seth Deces And the Concept of Law 1 Human Harm

[Archie700]

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=31906&sid=d1e60b158 ... b58fbf252a

[oranges]

can you post an opinion so I know what to argue about.

[XII3912]

Ah seth he ain't a bad guy but he thinks differently he'll learn from this though

[Shadowflame909]

if you didnt kill a borg for trying to heal someone and just flashed them you would have gotten off better

Dont we have a rule like this but for security. No murdering in self defense for valid arrests?

[XII3912]

if you didnt kill a borg for trying to heal someone and just flashed them you would have gotten off better

they'd just come back and annoy you i don't think you can use this as a solution against borgs 100% of the time or he may not have had a flash which is likely

[Archie700]

can you post an opinion so I know what to argue about.

killing borg bad

[oranges]

i agree because you can lock them down or pop their battery out and they are basically rendered irrelevant.

[CandyClown]

Borgs are sweet and innocent and must be protected at all costs. Rule 0 anyone who would dare lay a finger on them.

But on a serious note, you can't kill a borg for taking an action it's compelled to take. Security and Asimov policy makes that clear. It doesn't matter how easy it is for a borg to be revived.

4. Don’t kill Asimov borgs for trying to stop harm, unless they are being excessively disruptive.

1.4. As a non-antagonist (human or otherwise), [do not instigate] conflict with silicons so you can kill them.

[CoffeeDragon16]

dudes writing it like a middle school essay with a rubric

[TheFinalPotato]

killing borg good actually excuse you

[Archie700]

I think it's arguable if a player refuses treatment for bleeding or starts harming the Borg trying to save him that those actions could be arguably self harm

Refusing treatment for bleeding is arguable self harm because the human, by their own initiative, has chosen to bleed instead of being treated.

Harming the Borg trying to save him is not.

[dirk_mcblade]

I think it's arguable if a player refuses treatment for bleeding or starts harming the Borg trying to save him that those actions could be arguably self harm

Refusing treatment for bleeding is arguable self harm because the human, by their own initiative, has chosen to bleed instead of being treated.

Harming the Borg trying to save him is not.

True but somebody was saying something like a medical borg ought to sacrifice itself in such cases or get a banhammer and that's not the kind of silicon policy I want to see. Or maybe my reading comprehension was mistaken.

[Archie700]

I think it's arguable if a player refuses treatment for bleeding or starts harming the Borg trying to save him that those actions could be arguably self harm

Refusing treatment for bleeding is arguable self harm because the human, by their own initiative, has chosen to bleed instead of being treated.

Harming the Borg trying to save him is not.

True but somebody was saying something like a medical borg ought to sacrifice itself in such cases or get a banhammer and that's not the kind of silicon policy I want to see. Or maybe my reading comprehension was mistaken.

That is the unfortunate consequence of a combination of preventing human harm over self-preservation being hard-coded into Asimov and having to deal with an asshole that hates you for existing

[dirk_mcblade]

I think it's arguable if a player refuses treatment for bleeding or starts harming the Borg trying to save him that those actions could be arguably self harm

Refusing treatment for bleeding is arguable self harm because the human, by their own initiative, has chosen to bleed instead of being treated.

Harming the Borg trying to save him is not.

True but somebody was saying something like a medical borg ought to sacrifice itself in such cases or get a banhammer and that's not the kind of silicon policy I want to see. Or maybe my reading comprehension was mistaken.

That is the unfortunate consequence of a combination of preventing human harm over self-preservation being hard-coded into Asimov and having to deal with an asshole that hates you for existing

If the human law 2s you to hold still then you have to sit and die.
If you're law 1 required to help a bleeding out human who starts attacking you, then the human doesn't want help because it is destroying its help, and it is therefore self harm which is not covered by law 1.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

I think it's arguable if a player refuses treatment for bleeding or starts harming the Borg trying to save him that those actions could be arguably self harm

Refusing treatment for bleeding is arguable self harm because the human, by their own initiative, has chosen to bleed instead of being treated.

Harming the Borg trying to save him is not.

True but somebody was saying something like a medical borg ought to sacrifice itself in such cases or get a banhammer and that's not the kind of silicon policy I want to see. Or maybe my reading comprehension was mistaken.

My intention wasn't so much that they HAVE to, but that Silicon Policy is such a fucking mess, and that people hate them just for doing their jobs, that it's one hell of a grey area. They could probably get away with walking away in this particular case, but a lot probably wouldn't want to chance it. And if a Human is bleeding to death, and another human is attacking them, then it's just a massive shitshow.

It's extremely stressful for them, and my point was mostly to convey all of those conflicting things they have to think about and make the best decision they can, and probably get yelled at by admins if they fuck it up, and that this complete and utter "Borg players are beneath" me attitude falls pretty heavy into Rule 1 territory because of the kicking someone while they're down effect.

(Arguably it's Rule 12, too, as separating them and healing him was supposedly "compromising my entire shit" meaning Seth wanted nothing more than to just unga unga unga kill valid, at the expense of other peoples' rounds (the borgo's, from the report all that dude had done was water vapour the halls...)

[mstachife]

Borgs following their laws don't stop them from being criminals

[technokek]

If the human law 2s you to hold still then you have to sit and die.

You clearly dont know the server rules....

[dirk_mcblade]

Yeah well when has that ever stopped people from opining.

[massa]

I will kill any borg that interrupts what I am doing or intervenes

lmao seth's cope logic though

[technokek]

Yeah well when has that ever stopped people from opining.

and yet you are banned and i am not

[dirk_mcblade]

Yeah well when has that ever stopped people from opining.

and yet you are banned and i am not

That ain't me brother

[Scriptis]

i was the borg in this situation

first: three days, eh, should've been a dayban at most. but i don't know seth's note history so w/e
second: this motherfucker was about to die. i can't stress that enough. he was fighting a guy with a butcher's cleaver with a pocket crowbar. it doesn't take a genius to figure out that he was going to lose (and he did). i bailed his ass out
third: "borgs are easy to revive" is such a copout. you were also easy to revive. you weren't revived because the medbay staff were incompetent. the roboticists are incompetent even more often (source: i play borg)

otherwise i feel that stereo adequately covered my point of view and i've been given my justice for borg bullying

#borgsagainstbullying

[Itseasytosee2me]

Seth is pretty much completely right we just aren't ready for it yet.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

third: "borgs are easy to revive" is such a copout. you were also easy to revive. you weren't revived because the medbay staff were incompetent. the roboticists are incompetent even more often (source: i play borg)

God as a Roboticist player, I am always in AWE when I watch other people play it. I've been an active posibrain sitting on the floor for a full 20 minutes, just being ignored by the Roboticist while he built himself a Durand.

(A Durand does not take 20 minutes to build. And I'm normally forgiving of New Players, but the types of Roboticists who think that only ONE part of their job is actually their job, and usually that's "me build mechs" is unbelievably frustratingly common)

[technokek]

i was the borg in this situation

first: three days, eh, should've been a dayban at most. but i don't know seth's note history so w/e
second: this motherfucker was about to die. i can't stress that enough. he was fighting a guy with a butcher's cleaver with a pocket crowbar. it doesn't take a genius to figure out that he was going to lose (and he did). i bailed his ass out
third: "borgs are easy to revive" is such a copout. you were also easy to revive. you weren't revived because the medbay staff were incompetent. the roboticists are incompetent even more often (source: i play borg)

otherwise i feel that stereo adequately covered my point of view and i've been given my justice for borg bullying

#borgsagainstbullying

so many bans revolve around you. I am going to report you for ban baiting.

[Pandarsenic]

third: "borgs are easy to revive" is such a copout. you were also easy to revive. you weren't revived because the medbay staff were incompetent. the roboticists are incompetent even more often (source: i play borg)

Truth levels beyond comprehension

What's even worse is that for some reason, it's unbelievably hard to get people to bring a fucking borg back to robotics for revival at all, sometimes. They just get left and ignored a lot.

[Agux909]

This is precisely the attitude that shouldn't be encouraged in the server against borgs, and which is why a lot of people get burnt or start hating playing as one. Even if you're security or the captain, you shouldn't be killing a borg if they see human harm and are just trying to follow their laws by obstructing you. There needs to be some good faith comprehension about these interactions.

I think this ban will prove to be beneficial once headmins step in to clarify and leave precedent about it.

[Archie700]

From his line of thinking, Hoolny might possibly be a sociopath

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

Borgs arent above the law. If you interfere in security matters, I can, have, and WILL arrest a borg, or even the AI. I've thrown carded AIs into cells before, and I will do it again for interfering in security matters. Security's job is to uphold our laws, not the borgs laws, especially when you consider that no one besides the borg can truly know what laws they have, considering subversion/hidden laws. Treat them like any other member of the crew, and make common sense decisions based around whether they had any freedom in their actions.

That being said, I think killing the borg in this particular case was uncalled for, and killing borgs in general should be a last resort. Your first option should be to give it an order, then locking it down, removing it's cell, temporarily disabling it with a flash or an ion rifle, changing it's laws, there's like a billion other ways to handle a borg that don't involve killing it. And in this particular case, it was just trying to save a human's life while they were bleeding out. If someone is bleeding out - just fucking detain/arrest them at that point! You don't have to murder them! The borg was acting reasonably to save someone's life, and this was a case that looks like they were acting out of angry bloodlust validhunting.

[Pandarsenic]

I've thrown carded AIs into cells before, and I will do it again for interfering in security matters.

Yeah but that's really funny whereas what our boi here did was boring and obnoxious.

[Mothblocks]

It feels like an appeal written by a real SS13 character

[Agux909]

Borgs arent above the law. If you interfere in security matters, I can, have, and WILL arrest a borg, or even the AI. I've thrown carded AIs into cells before, and I will do it again for interfering in security matters. Security's job is to uphold our laws, not the borgs laws, especially when you consider that no one besides the borg can truly know what laws they have, considering subversion/hidden laws. Treat them like any other member of the crew, and make common sense decisions based around whether they had any freedom in their actions.

That being said, I think killing the borg in this particular case was uncalled for, and killing borgs in general should be a last resort. Your first option should be to give it an order, then locking it down, removing it's cell, temporarily disabling it with a flash or an ion rifle, changing it's laws, there's like a billion other ways to handle a borg that don't involve killing it. And in this particular case, it was just trying to save a human's life while they were bleeding out. If someone is bleeding out - just fucking detain/arrest them at that point! You don't have to murder them! The borg was acting reasonably to save someone's life, and this was a case that looks like they were acting out of angry bloodlust validhunting.

Yes.

[Redrover1760]

It feels like an appeal written by a real SS13 character

A real ss13 greytider argues human supremacy as why he can kill vital station equipment for attempting to save a human's life, the story.

That borg is a hero borg. Nothing can convince me otherwise.

[dirk_mcblade]

This is why I think servers that include non-humans in Asimov are nuts. Borgs need at least sometimes a possible out.

[chocolate_bickie]

Honestly how hard is it to drag a prisoner into maint and beat them to death there.

There are some borg players who are martyr's but if you can't reign in your public bloodlust don't be surprised when the silicons intervene.