Pie Ops: The Line (has been crossed)

[Archie700]

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=31958
Note: this was in Manuel low pop

17:51:08: Reply from-pieguy223: There were so many traitors that I could reasonably believe one might have a core extraction objective
17:52:33: Reply from-pieguy223: Also I was IRL pissed at the revs for just looting my corpse and not reviving me

rip
Edit: new appeal
viewtopic.php?p=645523#p645523

[Vekter]

He's got like 21 notes since January and they're all for shit like this. Nukies are allowed to murderbone, but I feel like setting the nuke to max delay just to go around murdering people because you're mad at them for meta reasons is bullshit.

[Itseasytosee2me]

I get that the guys an asshole but this seems like a pretty odd straw that broke the camel's back considering its not a rulebreak and explicitly allowed by RP rules. Seems like he was on the highway to hell regardless.

[Kendrickorium]

>I am making Pieguy piegoodbye

[Archie700]

I get that the guys an asshole but this seems like a pretty odd straw that broke the camel's back considering its not a rulebreak and explicitly allowed by RP rules. Seems like he was on the highway to hell regardless.

He admitted he deliberately murderboned without doing his objectives and took it as slow as possible as a result of a metagrudge over not being revived after the revolution.
Sounds like a case for BONERMASTER and Associates.

[NoxVS]

I get that the guys an asshole but this seems like a pretty odd straw that broke the camel's back considering its not a rulebreak and explicitly allowed by RP rules. Seems like he was on the highway to hell regardless.

He admitted he deliberately murderboned without doing his objectives and took it as slow as possible as a result of a metagrudge over not being revived after the revolution.
Sounds like a case for BONERMASTER and Associates.

Pieguy will be out of luck if we seek a consultation with them first. Conflict of interest or whatever and all that.

[Timberpoes]

He's got like 21 notes since January and they're all for shit like this. Nukies are allowed to murderbone, but I feel like setting the nuke to max delay just to go around murdering people because you're mad at them for meta reasons is bullshit.

The original note was mistaken. It was set for 500 seconds (far from max: a duration that is similar to red call > load > early launch > shuttle transit)

I get that the guys an asshole but this seems like a pretty odd straw that broke the camel's back considering its not a rulebreak and explicitly allowed by RP rules. Seems like he was on the highway to hell regardless.

You're not too far off the mark when you look at the appeal without all that hidden stuff admins have access to. Note histories, asay/Discord admin channel discussions, etc.

In a vacuum you have: Nuke ops (and by extension lone ops) can murderbone. Station pop was ~20-ish at the time so it can be bikeshedded about whether this was lowpop or not. Arming the nuke for 500 seconds is absolutely not excessive. I've said internally that ordinarily I wouldn't consider this a rule break on MRP.

Without context, the ban probably shouldn't stand. But there's way more context that the ban reason and appeal response fails to properly deliver on. You'll hopefully get to see this context as it's part of the draft response I've got up for headmin discussion right now internally.

If you, as a player, have ever wondered why certain other players remain terminally on our servers despite the fact they make the game miserable to play it's probably because of scenarios just like this.

The banning admin's job is to justify their own bans to the satisfaction of the headmin team (who are one of the last lines of defence and are meant to investigate appeals thoroughly and fairly), their peers (who will challenge them on rulings and facts they disagree with) and the court of public opinion (because the admin team is a public-facing role that works best when the community supports our approach and trusts us).

Some players eternally bounce between breaking the rules and just-barely-following-the-rules. What you end up with is an admin who gets exasperated with the player, permabans them for a just-barely-following-the-rules incident, then the ban gets overturned by the headmins because the admin couldn't adequately justify it; which isn't to say the ban wasn't actually justified, but that picking the magic words the headmins want to hear is hard when the headmins change every 6 months.

Now that admin and their peers are also hesistant to ban the player for a similar incident again. That player has to really fuck up bad because the admins think the headmins will just keep overturning bans for anything minor (aka they lose trust and faith in the headmin team). Meanwhile the player keeps arguing that the admin team is being biased and gunning for them, making admins even more hesitant to deal with them because that kind of accusation can be a heavy stain on an admin's public record.

There's a lot more to this as well when it comes to admin team culture. When a player is making shifts utterly miserable for everyone else and you can't seem to get any ban to stick, it massively hits your morale as an admin. Some admins start making weird calls and trying to stretch at anything they can to see the player banned, because they're sick and tired of it - which leads to more absurd-seeming bans with a high risk of being overturned making the whole thing worse. More experienced admins offer to step in and may ban them instead, and will often just pick a stupidly simple reason and cite their massive note history on the tail of it.

Sometimes I'm sad that the players can't see what goes on behind the scenes. It truly is a different world when you have the responsibilities and associated burdens of being an admin. But hopefully that has provided some insight into things.

[Drag]

I can safely say that the ban I placed was not because of the singular incident that occurred with the lone op low pop. Rather it was a collection of multiple factors. Most of which are only available behind the scene. Also what timber said but its me this time

[Timberpoes]

I'm a freakin' hardass on bans and notes internally too.

Very outspoken in discussions on how to approach banning players, drafting good notes and ban reasons, interpretation of policy and in getting things just right the first time.

Hooo boy, I've had a great many clashes with admins over that, and I'm sure many can't wait for my term to end in the hopes a headmin with fewer opinions that get expressed less often takes my place.

Until then: I'm already headmin, there's nothing they can do to stop me.

(Host vote goof Autumn 2022)

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

Why wasn't this appeal denied immediately for obvious bad faith, he put an amongus ascii character shoving its ass in our face in the appeal and explicitly asked for headmin review solely to be annoying.

[Timberpoes]

Why wasn't this appeal denied immediately for obvious bad faith, he put an amongus ascii character shoving its ass in our face in the appeal and explicitly asked for headmin review solely to be annoying.

viewtopic.php?f=34&t=28437

We can still treat appeals fairly even if they're made in what appears to be bad faith.

[Bjarl]

Jerry was miserable to play with, so cheers to the admins for taking him out back.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

Why wasn't this appeal denied immediately for obvious bad faith, he put an amongus ascii character shoving its ass in our face in the appeal and explicitly asked for headmin review solely to be annoying.

viewtopic.php?f=34&t=28437

We can still treat appeals fairly even if they're made in what appears to be bad faith.

I get it, but, still, I feel pretty pissed off seeing this flagrant disrespect this guy has for you guys,

[Drag]

Every player, no matter what, has a fundamental right to the same fair process we offer to ensure complete quality control of our own admins and to ensure our players are given any justice they deserve.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

Every player, no matter what, has a fundamental right to the same fair process we offer to ensure complete quality control of our own admins and to ensure our players are given any justice they deserve.

I mean, yeah, of course. I don't think this guy shouldn't get a fair appeal. I just don't think this was a serious attempt AT a fair appeal. He literally put an amongus ascii shoving it's ass in our face in his post and said the voices in his head call him studmuffin.

[Drag]

Every player, no matter what, has a fundamental right to the same fair process we offer to ensure complete quality control of our own admins and to ensure our players are given any justice they deserve.

I mean, yeah, of course. I don't think this guy shouldn't get a fair appeal. I just don't think this was a serious attempt AT a fair appeal. He literally put an amongus ascii shoving it's ass in our face in his post and said the voices in his head call him studmuffin.

One part of me agrees, the other part of me is desensitized because at this point I'm used to stuff like this

[Archie700]

Besides, you can mock his appeal AFTER the headmins take him out back and shoot him in the head.

[Drag]

>I am making Pieguy piegoodbye

I got 1984'd and had to change that bit Im so sad

[BONERMASTER]

I get that the guys an asshole but this seems like a pretty odd straw that broke the camel's back considering its not a rulebreak and explicitly allowed by RP rules. Seems like he was on the highway to hell regardless.

He admitted he deliberately murderboned without doing his objectives and took it as slow as possible as a result of a metagrudge over not being revived after the revolution.
Sounds like a case for BONERMASTER and Associates.

Pieguy will be out of luck if we seek a consultation with them first. Conflict of interest or whatever and all that.

NOPE, because conflict of interest comes in when, for example, I am filing a complaint against them, and then at the same time defending them in an appeal. Because I have no ongoing case against them, and they're free to choose whoever they wish to represent them, it is perfectly valid to take our consultation, even if you contacted them beforehand.

Which has already been sent their way, so, see you in court!


With fine regards
-BONERMASTER & Associates



(DISCLAIMER: ANY AND ALL REFERENCES TO THE LAW ARE MADE FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY!
BONERMASTER & ASSOCIATES IS A WORK OF FICTION AND NOT A LAW FIRM, BONERMASTER IS NOT A LICENSED LAWYER AND WILL NOT GIVE YOU LEGAL ADVICE, PLEASE CONSULT A LICENSED PROFESSIONAL FOR YOUR LEGAL QUERIES!)

[sinfulbliss]

Very outspoken in discussions on how to approach banning players, drafting good notes and ban reasons, interpretation of policy and in getting things just right the first time.

Hooo boy, I've had a great many clashes with admins over that, and I'm sure many can't wait for my term to end in the hopes a headmin with fewer opinions that get expressed less often takes my place.

This is actually a very good thing and you should keep it up.

I'm confused by this ban though. I agree with the rationale of admins being able to permaban people over minor/line-toeing offenses due to extreme histories, but this doesn't even strike me as just-barely-following-the-rules. It strikes me as completely in-line with the rules. I was always under the impression nuke ops could murderbone freely, since their end goal is arming the nuke and thereby gibbing everyone on the station. They're kitted out explicitly for the purpose of mass homicide. 8 minutes doesn't seem like delaying the round to any significant degree where this would fall under the "cannot delay round to be a dick" clause.

If they set the timer to 90 seconds instead of 8 minutes, they wouldn't have been bwoinked. This just seems very odd from a 3rd-person perspective. Perhaps it's lowpop murderboning, but since everyone gets gibbed after the nuke goes off anyway, it doesn't make much sense for that rule to be targeted at nukies.

[Nabski]

Timberpoes long as post hits hard and true for me. At least people aren't allowed to make an admin complaint until they appeal.

[sinfulbliss]

There were 29 active players on the round in question. I suppose that just makes the mark of lowpop murderboning but it depends who you ask (I'd say <30).

But as a nukie your end goal is to set off the nuke and gib everybody. Are nukies held to the same lowpop murderbone standards as traitors? Probably would make a good policy thread.

[Shadowflame909]

There were 29 active players on the round in question. I suppose that just makes the mark of lowpop murderboning but it depends who you ask (I'd say <30).

But as a nukie your end goal is to set off the nuke and gib everybody. Are nukies held to the same lowpop murderbone standards as traitors? Probably would make a good policy thread.

No.. but just like how traitors shouldn't be recalling the shuttle to extend their antag round. Nukies should be thematically trying to kill everyone by blowing up the nuke. Not by being a serial killer playing a single player game

Both these things require not prioritizing your fun over everyone elses

[XII3912]

I don't really think this was perma worthy at all heck even ban worthy a nuclear operative is like a Blob, on manuel it has murderbone rights though setting the nuke to the max time and murderboning would probably be a rule 1 violation in the mrp setting known as manuel, I can understand why he faced some sort of administrative action but I think this should be lifted.

[sinfulbliss]

There were 29 active players on the round in question. I suppose that just makes the mark of lowpop murderboning but it depends who you ask (I'd say <30).

But as a nukie your end goal is to set off the nuke and gib everybody. Are nukies held to the same lowpop murderbone standards as traitors? Probably would make a good policy thread.

No.. but just like how traitors shouldn't be recalling the shuttle to extend their antag round. Nukies should be thematically trying to kill everyone by blowing up the nuke. Not by being a serial killer playing a single player game

Both these things require not prioritizing your fun over everyone elses

I don't really think nukies should be trying to prioritize everyone else's fun? They're there to destroy the station with a nuclear weapon to end the round. If they kill everyone in the process that's sorta why they get fuckin machineguns and grenade launchers. Is it fun to get 2-tapped with an L6? Not really. Should nukies give a fuck? Not at all.

Is the argument really: "well they're allowed to kill everyone but it has to be through their objective of exploding the nuke, and they can't kill everyone before that"? Cause that sounds ridiculous.

[Archie700]

If you're trying to kill everyone before stealing the nuke disk and arming the nuke then you're just playing murderbone traitor with better gear.

[Drag]

There were 29 active players on the round in question. I suppose that just makes the mark of lowpop murderboning but it depends who you ask (I'd say <30).

But as a nukie your end goal is to set off the nuke and gib everybody. Are nukies held to the same lowpop murderbone standards as traitors? Probably would make a good policy thread.

No.. but just like how traitors shouldn't be recalling the shuttle to extend their antag round. Nukies should be thematically trying to kill everyone by blowing up the nuke. Not by being a serial killer playing a single player game

Both these things require not prioritizing your fun over everyone elses

I don't really think nukies should be trying to prioritize everyone else's fun? They're there to destroy the station with a nuclear weapon to end the round. If they kill everyone in the process that's sorta why they get fuckin machineguns and grenade launchers. Is it fun to get 2-tapped with an L6? Not really. Should nukies give a fuck? Not at all.

Is the argument really: "well they're allowed to kill everyone but it has to be through their objective of exploding the nuke, and they can't kill everyone before that"? Cause that sounds ridiculous.

The ban reason was not for this situation alone, it was simply the final straw in a long line of situations where there was additional bans, notes, poor conduct and the pure fact Timber had already warned them for their note accurals made me put my foot down. When I look at the situation as a whole:
-Piegiy was a player in the round but died and ended up round removed, in response to this they gained a personal metagrudge against the entire server
-Lone op is an antag that is designed to punish incompetent command staff for not securing our lord and savior disky
-Pieguy stated their intent to metagrudge the server(which I have a problem with) as revenge for not caring about his death, in a situation where it was chaotic for everyone
-Pieguy only attempted to do their objectives after they had killed a fair amount of players and only after admins prompted them to do their objectives
-The main issue isn't this situation alone, this is repeated behavior that has not improved over time.
-Rule 12. This is especially notable because this behavior is apparent and constant. Intentionally not going after the disk to metagrudge and then setting the timer to eight minutes is ruining the fun of everyone else purely for the sake of your own benefit. A core server rule is being broken and has been for a long time.

[massa]

copium overdose+MRP powertrip insanity

This is all cope. Cope cope cope where you grasp at straws over yet another completely pathological manuel ban.

This is one big cope of "um they never broke the rules sweaty but we're PERMABANNING them and we're using the time he rolled the role of a heavily armed nuclear terrorist with explicit orders to kill everyone onboard and nuke a station to justify it." (why is there a timer if we can't set it? lmfao)

[XII3912]

If you're trying to kill everyone before stealing the nuke disk and arming the nuke then you're just playing murderbone traitor with better gear.

Yep! And while nobody likes a murderboner nukie has a pass even in the mrp setting

Ban is just a case of somebody fucking up too much and now they pay the price

[Boot]

I feel like if you wanna rule 1 the guy then just rule 1 the guy. I don't like this setting the meme that Nukies going out of their way to kill people is "murderboning". I feel like its pretty common for Nukies to set the timer for more then the minimum then send a few back with the disk while one or two guys stay back to play tdm. I don't imagine a world were you start handing out bans for this.

On a side note, I have personally recalled the shuttle as a thief even when the station was in tatters just to get more time to steal my objective. Is that like a big no-no that I managed to get away with?
Side note to the side note. What if I am a traitor and I steal the comms board from secure storage, hide it away in maint and destroy the rest of the comms boards. I feel ike its effectively the same in extending the round but my gut says we'd treat it differently.

[Drag]

On a side note, I have personally recalled the shuttle as a thief even when the station was in tatters just to get more time to steal my objective. Is that like a big no-no that I managed to get away with?
Side note to the side note. What if I am a traitor and I steal the comms board from secure storage, hide it away in maint and destroy the rest of the comms boards. I feel ike its effectively the same in extending the round but my gut says we'd treat it differently.

For the first one, I feel like yes. I would have asked you not to do that as a thief.

For the second one Id consider a lot of factors: Are you trying to do a gimmick and need more time? What kind of state is the station in? How many people are dead? Do you have a history of doing this? Context matters more here because I want to know what your intent for doing so is, there is a buffer for rule 12 because of rule 4. As a rule four protected antagonist (thief is not rule four protected.) you are not only one of the driving forces of the round but you also give both security and medical their job content. However, rule 12 starts mattering more if you intentionally at every turn take it so far you make every encounter you create miserable for the mass majority of players for the sole sake of your own fun. It's one thing to own security, it's another to own the entire station and not allow anyone to call the shuttle.

[sinfulbliss]

The ban reason was not for this situation alone, it was simply the final straw in a long line of situations where there was additional bans, notes, poor conduct and the pure fact Timber had already warned them for their note accurals made me put my foot down.

This makes perfect sense to me, if what they did is linetoeing. I have trouble seeing how it is.

-Piegiy was a player in the round but died and ended up round removed, in response to this they gained a personal metagrudge against the entire server
-Lone op is an antag that is designed to punish incompetent command staff for not securing our lord and savior disky
-Pieguy only attempted to do their objectives after they had killed a fair amount of players and only after admins prompted them to do their objectives

This seems like a fairly strict view of lone op. Are they required on the MRP ruleset to complete their nuke objective in a timely manner? I'm sorta unfamiliar with MRP so I don't really know.

I think the main issue revolves around the question: are nukies allowed to murderbone on lowpop or not? If that's considered linetoeing rule 1 then the ban makes perfect sense. I was just under the impression nukies could kill whoever they wanted, even on MRP, and doing that prior to completing your nuke objective or not wouldn't make a difference if it's allowed.

[Drag]

The ban reason was not for this situation alone, it was simply the final straw in a long line of situations where there was additional bans, notes, poor conduct and the pure fact Timber had already warned them for their note accurals made me put my foot down.

This makes perfect sense to me, if what they did is linetoeing. I have trouble seeing how it is.

-Piegiy was a player in the round but died and ended up round removed, in response to this they gained a personal metagrudge against the entire server
-Lone op is an antag that is designed to punish incompetent command staff for not securing our lord and savior disky
-Pieguy only attempted to do their objectives after they had killed a fair amount of players and only after admins prompted them to do their objectives

This seems like a fairly strict view of lone op. Are they required on the MRP ruleset to complete their nuke objective in a timely manner? I'm sorta unfamiliar with MRP so I don't really know.

I think the main issue revolves around the question: are nukies allowed to murderbone on lowpop or not? If that's considered linetoeing rule 1 then the ban makes perfect sense. I was just under the impression nukies could kill whoever they wanted, even on MRP, and doing that prior to completing your nuke objective or not wouldn't make a difference if it's allowed.

Generally, yes, however this is a special case for the reasons I lined out. If it was literally just "Lone op murderbones" it wouldn't of been a problem.

[sinfulbliss]

Generally, yes, however this is a special case for the reasons I lined out. If it was literally just "Lone op murderbones" it wouldn't of been a problem.

People are narrowly evading rules while having colorful histories and admins should have leeway to permaban them for things that would ordinarily just be notes. That I totally agree with. But if you agree lowpop loneop murderboning isn't a problem, what about what they did here was notable?

Murdering everyone because they were angry about their previous life is a little cringe, but if they were allowed to do so then the intention shouldn't really matter IMO.

The 8 minute timer is really the only thing that would make sense to be line-toeing, but an extra 6min of a nukie murderbone seems too insignificant to be worth mentioning. The last straw on the camel's back argument is one I totally agree with but it has to at least be a straw.

[Drag]

Generally, yes, however this is a special case for the reasons I lined out. If it was literally just "Lone op murderbones" it wouldn't of been a problem.

People are narrowly evading rules while having colorful histories and admins should have leeway to permaban them for things that would ordinarily just be notes. That I totally agree with. But if you agree lowpop loneop murderboning isn't a problem, what about what they did here was notable?

Murdering everyone because they were angry about their previous life is a little cringe, but if they were allowed to do so then the intention shouldn't really matter IMO.

The 8 minute timer is really the only thing that would make sense to be line-toeing, but an extra 6min of a nukie murderbone seems too insignificant to be even worth mentioning. The last straw on the camel's back argument is one I totally agree with but it has to at least be a straw.

The largest issue I had with this case was the metagruding, yes you can use an antagonist role to metagrudge but you cannot actively seek an antagonist roll out specifically to metagrudge. Lone op is an opt in role and while the selection of the op is random from the quotes:

[2022-06-17 17:21:26.659] SAY: Pieguy223/(Jerry Notagan) (DEAD) "if I get lone op I&#39;m not grabbing the disk until everyone on the station is dead" (Kitchen (137,121,2))

and

17:52:33: Reply from-pieguy223: Also I was IRL pissed at the revs for just looting my corpse and not reviving me

The sirens going off in my mind is that this player is going after this antag roll because he's angry and he wants to get back at other people. This assumption was made because of their entire history as a player, on top of what they themselves said.

[sinfulbliss]

The largest issue I had with this case was the metagruding, yes you can use an antagonist role to metagrudge but you cannot actively seek an antagonist roll out specifically to metagrudge. Lone op is an opt in role and while the selection of the op is random from the quotes:

[2022-06-17 17:21:26.659] SAY: Pieguy223/(Jerry Notagan) (DEAD) "if I get lone op I&#39;m not grabbing the disk until everyone on the station is dead" (Kitchen (137,121,2))

and

17:52:33: Reply from-pieguy223: Also I was IRL pissed at the revs for just looting my corpse and not reviving me

The sirens going off in my mind is that this player is going after this antag roll because he's angry and he wants to get back at other people. This assumption was made because of their entire history as a player, on top of what they themselves said.

If antagonists are allowed to metagrudge, then stating you are going to metagrudge if you roll antag isn't really an issue right? If opt-in antags aren't allowed to metagrudge though then I suppose it makes sense, but that seems really obscure. I don't see why their reason for opting into lone op should matter. Maybe they were mad and wanted to get back at people, but if nuke ops are allowed to do this, then so what?

I can see why the sirens went off. But they got lucky and got the only role that would allow them to express their otherwise-bannable-metagrudging within the bounds of the rules. That's just my personal view, I understand your perspective though.

[massa]

17:52:33: Reply from-pieguy223: Also I was IRL pissed at the revs for just looting my corpse and not reviving me

The sirens going off in my mind is that this player is going after this antag roll because he's angry and he wants to get back at other people. This assumption was made because of their entire history as a player, on top of what they themselves said.

unfortunate, guys, don't admit to your actual human emotions that every single person has while you're accomplishing your objectives for the ghost roll you lucked out on

[Drag]

The largest issue I had with this case was the metagruding, yes you can use an antagonist role to metagrudge but you cannot actively seek an antagonist roll out specifically to metagrudge. Lone op is an opt in role and while the selection of the op is random from the quotes:

[2022-06-17 17:21:26.659] SAY: Pieguy223/(Jerry Notagan) (DEAD) "if I get lone op I&#39;m not grabbing the disk until everyone on the station is dead" (Kitchen (137,121,2))

and

17:52:33: Reply from-pieguy223: Also I was IRL pissed at the revs for just looting my corpse and not reviving me

The sirens going off in my mind is that this player is going after this antag roll because he's angry and he wants to get back at other people. This assumption was made because of their entire history as a player, on top of what they themselves said.

If antagonists are allowed to metagrudge, then stating you are going to metagrudge if you roll antag isn't really an issue right? If opt-in antags aren't allowed to metagrudge though then I suppose it makes sense, but that seems really obscure. I don't see why their reason for opting into lone op should matter. Maybe they were mad and wanted to get back at people, but if nuke ops are allowed to do this, then so what?

I can see why the sirens went off. But they got lucky and got the only role that would allow them to express their otherwise-bannable-metagrudging within the bounds of the rules. That's just my personal view, I understand your perspective though.

Stating you're going to metagrudge is an issue because you are not allowed to seek out antag status for the sake of upholding a metagrudge. It would be one thing if it was like "Oh cool, lone op. Oh cool, I got lone op. Oh wait, now I can get some revenge" vs "Fuck this place fuck these people I'm hitting this button because fuck them I'm gonna fuck them up." I agree with you not allowing ghost role antags to metagrudge at all makes more sense but as it stands right now that is what the policy is.

[massa]

you are desperately grasping at anything to ban a lone nukie for doing whatever he wants AND SUCCESSFULLY accomplishing his objectives

RULE 4 MF

[Drag]

you are desperately grasping at anything to ban a lone nukie for doing whatever he wants AND SUCCESSFULLY accomplishing his objectives

RULE 4 MF

Rule 12, rule 7, and you are also ignoring this issue on its own is not the entire reason for the ban, which I said several times.

[Drag]

Rule 4 has not and will never immediately invalidate all of the other rules TG has, this situation and this players history have led to a long line of events where their actions and refusal to change their behaviors have caught up to them. On top of that this player was an MRP player, which adds another point that rule 12 is even more apparent.

[sinfulbliss]

Stating you're going to metagrudge is an issue because you are not allowed to seek out antag status for the sake of upholding a metagrudge.

You're right, I dug it up:

This alone justifies the ban, you didn't need to say anything else even. Textbook violation of the headmin ruling

[Drag]

I'm playing seven games of 5D chess and half the admin team doesn't even know it

[sinfulbliss]

I'm playing seven games of 5D chess and half the admin team doesn't even know it

You're INSANE you could have left out all the lowpop murderbone-8min-nuke-needless-killing stuff and just been like. HERE IS THE RULE DISALLOWING GHOSTROLE METAGRUDGING. HERE IS YOUR QUOTE SAYING YOU WOULD GHOSTROLE METAGRUDGE. HERE IS THE BAN. GOODNIGHT.

[Drag]

I'm playing seven games of 5D chess and half the admin team doesn't even know it

You're INSANE you could have left out all the lowpop murderbone-8min-nuke-needless-killing stuff and just been like. HERE IS THE RULE DISALLOWING GHOSTROLE METAGRUDGING. HERE IS YOUR QUOTE SAYING YOU WOULD GHOSTROLE METAGRUDGE. HERE IS THE BAN. GOODNIGHT.

I might also be a giant fucking moron and like making everything complicated

[Drag]

I'm playing seven games of 5D chess and half the admin team doesn't even know it

You're INSANE you could have left out all the lowpop murderbone-8min-nuke-needless-killing stuff and just been like. HERE IS THE RULE DISALLOWING GHOSTROLE METAGRUDGING. HERE IS YOUR QUOTE SAYING YOU WOULD GHOSTROLE METAGRUDGE. HERE IS THE BAN. GOODNIGHT.

I might also be a giant fucking moron and like making everything complicated

(Help.)

[CitrusGender]

[Archie700]

I'm playing seven games of 5D chess and half the admin team doesn't even know it

You're INSANE you could have left out all the lowpop murderbone-8min-nuke-needless-killing stuff and just been like. HERE IS THE RULE DISALLOWING GHOSTROLE METAGRUDGING. HERE IS YOUR QUOTE SAYING YOU WOULD GHOSTROLE METAGRUDGE. HERE IS THE BAN. GOODNIGHT.

I might also be a giant fucking moron and like making everything complicated

maybe you should change the note to include that metagrudging thing

[CMDR_Gungnir]

you are desperately grasping at anything to ban a lone nukie for doing whatever he wants AND SUCCESSFULLY accomplishing his objectives

RULE 4 MF

Lone Antagonists can do whatever they want. They cannot ERP.
Lone Antagonists can do whatever they want. They cannot just go around calling everyone the Hard R and talking about the 49% or whatever it is.
Lone Antagonists can do whatever they want. They cannot metacomm.
Lone Antagonists can do whatever they want. Lowpop Murderboning is punished.

Rule 4 isn't a blanket "The rules don't apply to you". The actual rule explicitly starts with some examples of things it applies to (and remember, Rule 11 and the Lowpop Murderbone stuff apply, too, outside of the explicitly listed stuff).

This entire ban could be justified under Rule 1. If the nuke goes off, the round ends and people get back into it faster. He actively went out of his way to prolong it, so that he could click more spacemen until they became horizontal, on a low-pop round. (Pop may be 29, but consider that it was also post-revs, so there's gonna be a lot of dead people). From playing with this dude, I can tell you from experience, this guy has a consistent habit of prioritizing his own fun over anyone else's. Often to the DETRIMENT of theirs.

I get that you hate Manuel with a burning passion, but sometimes enough is enough. We have rules for a reason, if you or he don't like 'em, then without any hostility or spite in my words, I genuinely think you should try looking elsewhere.

[Archie700]

So when's the more serious appeal