Trooper goes "Holy War" on his own team

[Archie700]

Bottom post of the previous page:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=32812

This needs context

trying really hard not to quote Monty Python

[Timberpoes]

It's part of why I said a verbal warning or minor note would seem sufficient.

I'm not saying this isn't a thing an admin can deal with, but I felt the approach was a big overstepping of how things should have been handled. It's not really about hills and dying, it's about looking at the entire context of everything.

I don't think the player went in with the malicious intent to ruin things for as many people as possible. It was just a moment of IC stupidity during a period when IC rules are NORMALLY suspended and the end of the round is NORMALLY not being held up 9 minutes. It feels like the ban was not placed because the player actually warranted being banned, but for some symbolic "making an example/making a point reason".

All the neurons for caring about the fun of others ends where EoRG begins. The only reason this is an issue is because it's an incident 9 minutes into a delayed round end.

Players will do dumb shit during EoRG. They'll do dumber shit when you drag on EoRG past 9 minutes. That's how it is. This was an IC rule break during a moment when IC rules are generally suspended, when that period had been ongoing for 9 minutes.

This entire situation is easily resolved because there's no concept of OOC or IC at this point. Fix the hole, revive the people, tell the player not to do it again, and get to handling whatever it is you're doing that's causing such a massive delay.

No need for a note unless you're being particularly anal that evening, and definitely no need for bans.

[Edited final comment] Are we going to bring admins up on conduct when the shift ends and they just drop bombs on the shuttle killing everyone instantly before they get to have any fun? In that context, we're holding players to higher standards than ourselves and applying concepts against them that admins regularly break themselves when the shift ends. It's EoRG. Live and let die and let the bodies hit the floor.

[Archie700]

Rule 0 is primarily "the admins can choose not to enforce the rules if they want, but they're held accountable for it if they do".

Rule 1 is "don't be a dick". It can supercede all other rules, INCLUDING its own precedents. It is the discretionary anti-lameness rule that you go to when no other rule applies, but you feel it is in the best interests of the server to deal with some edge case administratively. Of course again, the admin using it in this way is held accountable for it.

This ruling sparks a lot of "we want the admin team to trust that the headmins will have their backs on controversial but necessary bans", The Headmin Ruling.

I don't think this was controversial but necessary. Given the circumstances at play here, this genuinely wasn't a fair response. When two rules clash, admins should take a pragmatic approach. Because TECHNICALLY it's not against the rules. So understand that and respect that.

This was an edge case that could absolutely have been handled by a verbal warning, or perhaps even a minor note if the admin had a particularly rough and barky stick up their ass that day. But having this as a ban on their record feels lame and serves no useful long-term purpose that any other lesser approach couldn't also achieve.

I know if I see a ban for "killed people during EoRG" I'll basically just ignore it because it's a dumb reason to ban a person. Everyone is bored as shit, killing eachother, just waiting for the round to end and the server to restart.

When I spawn people in with Deathsquad gear to "end of round greet" the shuttle at Centcom and someone gets trigger happy and starts shooting before the shuttle has arrived? I right click delete, revive killed people and leave it at that.

As a counter to this though, ERTs are explicitly and only ever admin spawned roles - a player is never going to lose access to some mystical non-admin initiated ERT buildup, seeing an admin trying to make some fun for players and acting on the thought of "how do I maximise how quickly I reduce this available fun to zero" is shitty behaviour whether or not the rules of the normal game are suspended, and access to ERTs is neither an inherent right nor anywhere close to a required element to play the game.

I mentioned in my part of the denial for this, and I stand by it that had this been literally any form of server or greater application ban than "wow that was a dick move to pull with an ERT spawned to entertain people, stop taking ERTs if you're gonna act like that" I would've chosen getting it overturned as a hill worth dying on, but it wasn't, it was a back-off on taking an admin event role because wow way to be a dick the moment you've got access to one.

Maybe that shouldn't be the case. Maybe the rules of the game being suspended in EoRG for the normal minute or so that it lasts while the server resets means that the fundamental idea that "maybe you shouldn't be a dick to the people behind the other screens" is also suspended; irrelevant other context (like the normal minute long reset timer where everyone gets at least a chance to participate getting dragged out to nearly ten times its normal duration with most people locked out of the ability to do anything at all), but frankly I'd rather it didn't, so here we are :shrug:

The argument assumes that he was malicious about killing his team and not just thinking Rule 1 Precedent 3 was still in play.



Additional information was that Riggle did not tell anyone that they were supposed to be sent to the station prior to spawning, and the fact that the ERT did not seem to be a specially-created one but a chaplain adminspawn. How was mauzer supposed to know that Rule 1 Precedent 3 was not at play here?

This is also going to be a consistently issue on the part of Rule 1 Precedent 3. If the ruling is that you can't kill your ERT team even after roundend without admin approval, then the precedent has to be changed to state that, because the Precedent 3 is VERY straightforward on the rule on EORG (You are essentially treated as a lone antagonist).

[NamelessFairy]

Words

The argument assumes that he was malicious about killing his team and not just thinking Rule 1 Precedent 3 was still in play.



Additional information was that Riggle did not tell anyone that they were supposed to be sent to the station prior to spawning, and the fact that the ERT did not seem to be a specially-created one but a chaplain adminspawn. How was mauzer supposed to know that Rule 1 Precedent 3 was not at play here?

This is also going to be a consistently issue on the part of Rule 1 Precedent 3. If the ruling is that you can't kill your ERT team even after roundend without admin approval, then the precedent has to be changed to state that, because the Precedent 3 is VERY straightforward on the rule on EORG (You are essentially treated as a lone antagonist).

Noting the bit that "Riggle didn't tell anyone", all ERT types by default have a TGUI popup when you spawn as one with an admin set objective, in this case that objective could probably constitute as being told since it does not appear that that objective was set to "kill everybody" or something similar.

[Archie700]

Noting the bit that "Riggle didn't tell anyone", all ERT types by default have a TGUI popup when you spawn as one with an admin set objective, in this case that objective could probably constitute as being told since it does not appear that that objective was set to "kill everybody" or something similar.

I tried to find that but apparently Melonmesa doesn't have it.

I did however, find this. 194786

Code: Select all

07:28:29	ADMIN	*no key*/(Harvester (547)) changed the equipment of Riggle/(Kadence Kelley) to Kadence Commander.		
07:28:36	ADMIN	Riggle/(Kadence Kelley) has entered build mode.		
07:28:37	ADMIN	Build Mode: Riggle/(Kadence Kelley) built the wall	(150, 81, 1)	CentCom Transport Shuttle Dock
07:28:37	ADMIN	Build Mode: Riggle/(Kadence Kelley) built the reinforced wall	(150, 81, 1)	CentCom Transport Shuttle Dock
07:28:37	ADMIN	Build Mode: Riggle/(Kadence Kelley) built the wall	(150, 82, 1)	CentCom Transport Shuttle Dock
07:28:37	ADMIN	Build Mode: Riggle/(Kadence Kelley) built the wall	(150, 83, 1)	CentCom Transport Shuttle Dock
07:28:38	ADMIN	Build Mode: Riggle/(Kadence Kelley) built the reinforced wall	(150, 83, 1)	CentCom Transport Shuttle Dock
07:28:38	ADMIN	Build Mode: Riggle/(Kadence Kelley) built the reinforced wall	(150, 82, 1)	CentCom Transport Shuttle Dock
07:28:40	ADMIN	Build Mode: Riggle/(Kadence Kelley) built the wall	(138, 82, 1)	CentCom Transport Shuttle Dock
07:28:40	ADMIN	Build Mode: Riggle/(Kadence Kelley) built the reinforced wall	(138, 82, 1)	CentCom Transport Shuttle Dock
07:28:44	ADMIN	Build Mode: Riggle/(Kadence Kelley) built the wall	(153, 75, 1)	CentCom Armory
07:28:44	ADMIN	Build Mode: Riggle/(Kadence Kelley) built the reinforced wall	(153, 75, 1)	CentCom Armory
07:28:45	ADMIN	Build Mode: Riggle/(Kadence Kelley) built the wall	(153, 76, 1)	CentCom Armory
07:28:45	ADMIN	Build Mode: Riggle/(Kadence Kelley) built the reinforced wall	(153, 76, 1)	CentCom Armory
07:28:45	ADMIN	Build Mode: Riggle/(Kadence Kelley) built the wall	(153, 77, 1)	CentCom Armory
07:28:46	ADMIN	Build Mode: Riggle/(Kadence Kelley) built the reinforced wall	(153, 77, 1)	CentCom Armory
07:28:57	SAY	Riggle/(Kadence Kelley) "Hello."	(147, 80, 1)	CentCom Transport Shuttle Dock
07:28:59	SAY	Riggle/(Kadence Kelley) "Follow me"	(147, 80, 1)	CentCom Transport Shuttle Dock
07:29:04	EMOTE	Riggle/(Kadence Kelley) points at Orbital Drop Pod Loading	(140, 84, 1)	CentCom Transport Shuttle Dock
07:29:04	EMOTE	Riggle/(Kadence Kelley) points at Orbital Drop Pod Loading	(140, 84, 1)	CentCom Transport Shuttle Dock
07:29:04	EMOTE	Riggle/(Kadence Kelley) points at Orbital Drop Pod Loading	(140, 84, 1)	CentCom Transport Shuttle Dock
07:29:04	EMOTE	Riggle/(Kadence Kelley) points at Orbital Drop Pod Loading	(140, 84, 1)	CentCom Transport Shuttle Dock
07:29:05	EMOTE	Riggle/(Kadence Kelley) points at Orbital Drop Pod Loading	(140, 84, 1)	CentCom Transport Shuttle Dock
07:29:07	SAY	Riggle/(Kadence Kelley) "In there"	(140, 84, 1)	CentCom Transport Shuttle Dock

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[2022-11-21 19:29:09.908] ATTACK: Mazur907/(Chaplain Osterweis) primed a holy hand grenade at CentCom Briefing Room (147,78,1) containing: (metamaterial beaker 1 : Potassium, 150); (metamaterial beaker 2 : Holy Water, 150);. (CentCom Briefing Room (147,78,1))
[2022-11-21 19:29:13.445] ATTACK: Mazur907/(Chaplain Osterweis) has thrown the holy hand grenade  (CentCom Briefing Room (146,75,1))
[2022-11-21 19:29:13.623] ATTACK: Mazur907/(Chaplain Osterweis) threw and hit Roniii/(Medical Officer Fryer) with the holy hand grenade (NEWHP: 100)  (CentCom Briefing Room (146,75,1))

It seems Riggle DID try to tell them.

That...kinda becomes more complex.

Also, note that the ERT was already a mess of people attacking each other BEFORE the bomb.

Code: Select all

07:28:55	ATTACK	Pilot778/(Chaplain Paynter) fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from CentCom Briefing Room	(149, 74, 1)	CentCom Briefing Room
07:28:55	ATTACK	Pilot778/(Chaplain Paynter) shot Atlasle/(Medical Officer Griffiths) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 100)	(149, 74, 1)	CentCom Briefing Room
07:28:55	ATTACK	Jamal 2.0/(Security Officer Hawker) fired at Unicorn_MAIN2/(Harvester (881)) with the electrode from CentCom Briefing Room	(148, 74, 1)	CentCom Briefing Room
07:28:55	ATTACK	Sk1Wass3r/(Chaplain Boyer) fired at [�space] with the disabler beam from CentCom Briefing Room	(151, 76, 1)	CentCom Briefing Room
07:28:55	ATTACK	HAMGLAZE/(Chaplain Jyllian) fired at [folder] with the disabler beam from CentCom Briefing Room	(149, 74, 1)	CentCom Briefing Room
07:28:55	ATTACK	Sk1Wass3r/(Chaplain Boyer) shot Sirphilips/(Security Officer Benford) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 100)	(151, 76, 1)	CentCom Briefing Room
07:28:57	ATTACK	TwistedSilicon/(Security Officer Lombardi) fired at [floor] with the electrode from CentCom Briefing Room	(149, 74, 1)	CentCom Briefing Room
07:28:57	ATTACK	TwistedSilicon/(Security Officer Lombardi) shot Jamal 2.0/(Security Officer Hawker) with the electrode (NEWHP: 100)	(149, 74, 1)	CentCom Briefing Room
07:28:57	ATTACK	Sirphilips/(Security Officer Benford) fired at [reinforced table] with the electrode from CentCom Briefing Room	(151, 75, 1)	CentCom Briefing Room
07:28:58	ATTACK	TwistedSilicon/(Security Officer Lombardi) fired at [floor] with the electrode from CentCom Briefing Room	(150, 79, 1)	CentCom Briefing Room
07:28:58	ATTACK	TwistedSilicon/(Security Officer Lombardi) shot Orangu/(Medical Officer Langston) with the electrode (NEWHP: 100)	(150, 79, 1)	CentCom Briefing Room
07:29:00	ATTACK	TwistedSilicon/(Security Officer Lombardi) fired at [wooden table] with the electrode from CentCom Briefing Room	(146, 77, 1)	CentCom Briefing Room
07:29:00	ATTACK	TwistedSilicon/(Security Officer Lombardi) shot Neon Spark/(Security Officer Pearsall) with the electrode (NEWHP: 100)	(145, 78, 1)	CentCom Briefing Room
07:29:00	ATTACK	Truz/(Security Officer Hegarty) fired at [floor] with the electrode from CentCom Briefing Room	(146, 74, 1)	CentCom Briefing Room
07:29:00	ATTACK	Truz/(Security Officer Hegarty) shot Urok/(Chaplain Burns) with the electrode (NEWHP: 100)	(146, 74, 1)	CentCom Briefing Room
07:29:04	ATTACK	TwistedSilicon/(Security Officer Lombardi) fired at [floor] with the electrode from CentCom Transport Shuttle Dock	(145, 83, 1)	CentCom Transport Shuttle Dock
07:29:04	ATTACK	TwistedSilicon/(Security Officer Lombardi) shot Atlasle/(Medical Officer Griffiths) with the electrode (NEWHP: 100)	(145, 83, 1)	CentCom Transport Shuttle Dock
07:29:07	ATTACK	BingBong34/(Medical Officer Singh) attempted to inject BingBong34/(Medical Officer Singh) with the combat stimulant injector (Epinephrine, Omnizine, Leporazine and Atropine) (NEWHP: 100)	(138, 84, 1)	CentCom Transport Shuttle Dock
07:29:07	ATTACK	BingBong34/(Medical Officer Singh) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/medicine/epinephrine (3.3u, 1 purity), /datum/reagent/medicine/omnizine (3.3u, 1 purity), /datum/reagent/medicine/leporazine (1.7u, 1 purity) and /datum/reagent/medicine/atropine (1.7u, 1 purity)) from the combat stimulant injector to BingBong34/(Medical Officer Singh) (NEWHP: 100)	(138, 84, 1)	CentCom Transport Shuttle Dock
07:29:07	ATTACK	BingBong34/(Medical Officer Singh) injected BingBong34/(Medical Officer Singh) with the combat stimulant injector (Epinephrine, Omnizine, Leporazine and Atropine) (NEWHP: 100)	(138, 84, 1)	CentCom Transport Shuttle Dock
07:29:09	ATTACK	Mazur907/(Chaplain Osterweis) primed a holy hand grenade at CentCom Briefing Room (147,78,1) containing: (metamaterial beaker 1 : Potassium, 150); (metamaterial beaker 2 : Holy Water, 150);.	(147, 78, 1)	CentCom Briefing Room
07:29:12	ATTACK	Jamal 2.0/(Security Officer Hawker) grabbed Urok/(Chaplain Burns) passive grab (NEWHP: 100)	(148, 73, 1)	CentCom Briefing Room
07:29:13	ATTACK	Mazur907/(Chaplain Osterweis) has thrown the holy hand grenade	(146, 75, 1)	CentCom Briefing Room
07:29:13	ATTACK	Mazur907/(Chaplain Osterweis) threw and hit Roniii/(Medical Officer Fryer) with the holy hand grenade (NEWHP: 100)	(146, 75, 1)	CentCom Briefing Room
07:29:18	ATTACK	Mazur907/(Chaplain Osterweis) fired at Raven Diesel/(Chaplain Roberts) with the laser from CentCom Briefing Room (NEWHP: 73.8)	(143, 74, 1)	CentCom Briefing Room
07:29:18	ATTACK	Mazur907/(Chaplain Osterweis) shot Raven Diesel/(Chaplain Roberts) with the laser (NEWHP: 73.8)	(143, 74, 1)	CentCom Briefing Room
07:29:18	ATTACK	Mazur907/(Chaplain Osterweis) fired at Raven Diesel/(Chaplain Roberts) with the laser from CentCom Briefing Room (NEWHP: 63.8)	(143, 74, 1)	CentCom Briefing Room
07:29:19	ATTACK	Mazur907/(Chaplain Osterweis) shot Raven Diesel/(Chaplain Roberts) with the laser (NEWHP: 63.8)	(143, 74, 1)	CentCom Briefing Room
07:29:19	ATTACK	Mazur907/(Chaplain Osterweis) fired at Raven Diesel/(Chaplain Roberts) with the laser from CentCom Briefing Room (NEWHP: 53.8)	(143, 74, 1)	CentCom Briefing Room
07:29:19	ATTACK	Mazur907/(Chaplain Osterweis) shot Raven Diesel/(Chaplain Roberts) with the laser (NEWHP: 53.8)	(144, 74, 1)	CentCom Briefing Room
07:29:20	ATTACK	Mazur907/(Chaplain Osterweis) fired at Raven Diesel/(Chaplain Roberts) with the laser from CentCom Briefing Room (NEWHP: 46.3)	(144, 74, 1)	CentCom Briefing Room
07:29:20	ATTACK	Mazur907/(Chaplain Osterweis) shot Raven Diesel/(Chaplain Roberts) with the laser (NEWHP: 46.3)	(144, 74, 1)	CentCom Briefing Room
07:29:20	ATTACK	Mazur907/(Chaplain Osterweis) fired at Raven Diesel/(Chaplain Roberts) with the laser from CentCom Briefing Room (NEWHP: 36.3)	(145, 74, 1)	CentCom Briefing Room
07:29:20	ATTACK	Mazur907/(Chaplain Osterweis) shot Raven Diesel/(Chaplain Roberts) with the laser (NEWHP: 36.3)	(145, 74, 1)	CentCom Briefing Room

[Tearling]

Maybe the rules of the game being suspended in EoRG for the normal minute or so that it lasts while the server resets means that the fundamental idea that "maybe you shouldn't be a dick to the people behind the other screens" is also suspended; irrelevant other context (like the normal minute long reset timer where everyone gets at least a chance to participate getting dragged out to nearly ten times its normal duration with most people locked out of the ability to do anything at all), but frankly I'd rather it didn't

Might as well just say "Maybe the rules say you can grief post roundend, but I'd rather it didn't." because that's what this debate boils down to.

[Farquaar]

Timberpoes is correct.

[kieth4]

[Edited final comment] Are we going to bring admins up on conduct when the shift ends and they just drop bombs on the shuttle killing everyone instantly before they get to have any fun? In that context, we're holding players to higher standards than ourselves and applying concepts against them that admins regularly break themselves when the shift ends. It's EoRG. Live and let die and let the bodies hit the floor.

I think that this final comment is actually a very good thinking point here. Players often wait for the shift to end just so they can use their loot and stuff that they spent hours building. Players are blown up, killed or even singlos are spawned as tickets extend the round further and further on. Why is a player killing other players not ok but an admin spawning in some kind of bullshit mass killing thing ok. I'd personally rather be in a deathsquad fight than in a station with nothing left because an admin spawned singlo just killed it.

One rule for me, another for thee.

[spookuni]

[Edited final comment] Are we going to bring admins up on conduct when the shift ends and they just drop bombs on the shuttle killing everyone instantly before they get to have any fun? In that context, we're holding players to higher standards than ourselves and applying concepts against them that admins regularly break themselves when the shift ends. It's EoRG. Live and let die and let the bodies hit the floor.

I think that this final comment is actually a very good thinking point here. Players often wait for the shift to end just so they can use their loot and stuff that they spent hours building. Players are blown up, killed or even singlos are spawned as tickets extend the round further and further on. Why is a player killing other players not ok but an admin spawning in some kind of bullshit mass killing thing ok. I'd personally rather be in a deathsquad fight than in a station with nothing left because an admin spawned singlo just killed it.

One rule for me, another for thee.

For what it's worth, and talking only for myself - yeah, employing the haha time to make everyone go to the deadchat bitching dimension as fast as possible tools as an admin when you know the round is going to be / is being delayed is shitty. I don't think admins should be doing it when they know people are gonna be there a while, and while I can't talk for the others, I'd uphold the admin complaint against an admin dropping an explosive missile on another admin's attempt to give people something to do 10 minutes into everyone being dead post roundend.

Admin scrungos / pod spam / directly deleting players can be funny and entertaining when it's a minute of stupidity after a round and we all know it's gonna roll over - probably while the pods are still flying and people are still running for their lives - in a minute. It's very much not either of those things when it's 10 minutes of "Wow look at this admin have all this fun at our expense". If people are still dependent on us in our positions as DMs / the people who provide funny shit to do, the fact that technically we "can" throw it in their face and just do what we want shouldn't apply if we care at all about the spirit of the rules.

[iwishforducks]

pathetic headmin response lol

[Itseasytosee2me]

Booooooooring

[Riggle]

I fully agree with Timber that the note is of low value. It doesn't really add much of anything, other than "hey this person did something lame once". Maybe it's useful for when you're picking event characters.

As I said earlier I did not verbally warn them because the round had been delayed for 19 minutes and I did not want to have three more tickets to deal with. In any other situation I'd leave them with a verbal warning, I hope you understand why I chose this route.

Words

Perhaps I should have tried harder, but not like that would have helped. I know that people shot eachother but there's a difference between a laser and grenade that immediately kills you. Maybe it makes it more unfair as the fight was already started... I just tried telling people not to be lame.

[Agux909]

I think you fucked up. Even if the ban on itself isn't as serious, and kind of a joke, you should be aiming to have higher standards, being more reasonable than what you showed here. Because being an admin isn't a joke, right?

Caring about flavor text or teams after EOR in a non-event round is the oddity, not the rule. So, at minimun, make sure you inform the server with a loud global warning before deciding to punish players who KNEW they weren't doing anything wrong. You are FULLY responsible of making sure of this, before you even think about making players responsible of following some demeanor you thought they had to follow.

Really puzzled with the headmin decision here. I wonder how will this precedent have a bearing in the future regarding punishing players even if they didn't bend/break rules. Sounds terrible, but maybe I'm just being too dramatic about it.

[Archie700]

Words

If you felt that the verbal warning was sufficient, then why ban the person from ERT for 7 days? I know ERT and pAI is not common, but come on.

Just globally warn everyone not to kill each other and carry on. You did not have to individually handle each person since it was already roundend and the issue was people fighting each other as an ERT. A global warning that you are trying to set up an event and further killings before you reach the station will be punished was all you needed.

[Riggle]

I don't think standards have anything to do with this. All I've tried to do is tell people not to be extremely lame. A global warning wouldn't have the same effect as the ban or personal verbal warning, at least in my personal opinion.

I'm completely fine with them blowing themselves up after round end, just not almost immediately after spawning in an extremely cramped space. It's exceptionally lame to do so.

There was another person trying to make holes in CC using their RCD but since they haven't killed anyone they just got deleted.

[Tearling]

Really puzzled with the headmin decision here. I wonder how will this precedent have a bearing in the future regarding punishing players even if they didn't bend/break rules. Sounds terrible, but maybe I'm just being too dramatic about it.

I guess they missed the old days of Nervere. Maybe they'll decide to get rid of the public logs, too, while they're at it.

[iwishforducks]

we were spoiled with a headmin trio with a lot of spine (and at times too much spine), now we're back to normal spineless headmin trios

what a truly just putrid ruling

[Shadowflame909]

manuel m-

wait that's terry!

Um....check admin who if admins are giving out ghost roles on delayed round end...moment.