Captain that takes the antique laser gun got owned by rule 12.

[Turbonerd]

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=33017

I don't think he understands how captain is supposed to be played like. I think he should try to hire a bodyguard instead.

[sinfulbliss]

spoilering your peanut posting shouldnt make it kosher to peanut post

[toemas]

ban is deserved given this persons playstyle but the admin needs to reword it to reflect that

[Pandarsenic]

spoilering your peanut posting shouldnt make it kosher to peanut post

Everything I said is true and relevant, I just don't want to jump too far ahead of the admin who actually applied the ban. And it's hard to call "Only a bitch-made Captain takes the Antique Laser before shit goes down" formal policy when I put it in those words. But it absolutely is the case and everyone knows it.

A captain with any pride has the goal to keep the damn laser IN the display case, not to remove it personally.

[Bawhoppennn]

Yeah good ban. Probably should be reworded though.

[datorangebottle]

Everything I said is true and relevant, I just don't want to jump too far ahead of the admin who actually applied the ban. And it's hard to call "Only a bitch-made Captain takes the Antique Laser before shit goes down" formal policy when I put it in those words. But it absolutely is the case and everyone knows it.

A captain with any pride has the goal to keep the damn laser IN the display case, not to remove it personally.

While I agree with you that the laser is supposed to stay in the case outside of emergencies, you didn't need to barge into a ban appeal thread and piss all over the forum rules to tell people that. Peanut threads exist for a reason.

Other admins hopping in to peanutpost and speculate about policy isn't setting a great example for the candymin. I'd like to think that any admin with the confidence to apply a ban should have the confidence to justify that ban. If they're uncertain about their own reasoning, they can talk to the other admins about it privately, make sure things are sound, but other admins shouldn't be jumping into the thread before the banning admin and massively inflating the page length.

If the appealer has talked to two separate admins besides the one that banned them before the banning admin has even looked at the thread, something is going very wrong. I understand that rule 12 is new and also very complex, but come on. Let Rectification say something before jumping down the player's throat with opinions and precedents.

---

Anyway, there are a lot of lame things the captain did, but some of these things aren't nearly as lame as they could be.
Lame things:

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-Taking the antique laser roundstart
-Hiding traitor objectives because they could be stolen(the handtele belongs to anybody with teleporter access, not specifically the RD; if it belonged to the RD, it would spawn in their office).
-Playing all-access security officer instead of captain (wandering the station looking for threats as opposed to generally managing the crew).

Things that could've been lamer:

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+They cooperated with an antagonist who outed themselves and offered to help the crew. Even though I find that method of playing antagonist almost as equally lame as all-access security officers, it's to the player's credit that they didn't just hunt down and destroy the changeling immediately after they outed themselves.
+The efficient handling of the revolution, as opposed to slaughtering any crew within arm's reach, and not giving in to antag rollers by calling the shuttle as soon as the revolution's over
+To be fair to the appealer: there was a revolution, so working with/behaving like security in that context is fine.

All in all, the first two points are enough for some sort of rule 12 action, note or ban IMO. The fourth point is complicated; refusing to hunt an antagonist is absolutely not playing to win... UNLESS the antagonist is recruited to hunt other antagonists, but that doesn't seem to be the case here at a glance.

[Kendrickorium]

@lolswat

--like I was when I first came to tg, I played a lot like you, and our past selves on hippie, that was over two years ago

captain(or other heads) on this server isn't about getting items, it's about taking time to interact with people and their stories and events, but MOST importantly setting a good example for the crew

this involves roleplaying, a lot of it. be ready to die, a lot. stop caring about it. take the time as a ghost to observe other people and make friends with other ghosts. stop caring about threats. let the other heads handle their areas.

I similarly equip myself in the beginning of the round --hand tele, door remote, sechuds, stunbaton, flash, cuffs, and the most deadly weapon ever conceived-- the dragnet, which you already know about.
all other items are left where they are.

the items I equip are used 95% defensively to escape situations I dont care to be in anymore.

the point i'm trying to make, leave that hippie mentality and playstyle completely behind you. find a new one. I tried to tell yobi all this but, yobi is yobi.
the admins are politely trying to nudge you in the correct direction by giving you these notes and bans. stop trying to defend yourself in the appeal thread, admit that you need to change your playstyle.
you can have a lot of fun here, a lot of the players and regulars on sybil are fantastic intelligent people,
but I only realized this once i stopped looking for trouble everywhere I went

my recommendation? try watching tex at blackpantslegion on youtube. he has a whole playlist of tg, ss13, and USMC videos you can watch and enjoy.
learn to be a relaxed spaceman. embrace the tex. he will literally show you how to enjoy this game.

[Kendrickorium]

Everything I said is true and relevant, I just don't want to jump too far ahead of the admin who actually applied the ban. And it's hard to call "Only a bitch-made Captain takes the Antique Laser before shit goes down" formal policy when I put it in those words. But it absolutely is the case and everyone knows it.

A captain with any pride has the goal to keep the damn laser IN the display case, not to remove it personally.

While I agree with you that the laser is supposed to stay in the case outside of emergencies, you didn't need to barge into a ban appeal thread and piss all over the forum rules to tell people that. Peanut threads exist for a reason.

Other admins hopping in to peanutpost and speculate about policy isn't setting a great example for the candymin. I'd like to think that any admin with the confidence to apply a ban should have the confidence to justify that ban. If they're uncertain about their own reasoning, they can talk to the other admins about it privately, make sure things are sound, but other admins shouldn't be jumping into the thread before the banning admin and massively inflating the page length.

If the appealer has talked to two separate admins besides the one that banned them before the banning admin has even looked at the thread, something is going very wrong. I understand that rule 12 is new and also very complex, but come on. Let Rectification say something before jumping down the player's throat with opinions and precedents.

---

Anyway, there are a lot of lame things the captain did, but some of these things aren't nearly as lame as they could be.
Lame things:

Code: Select all

-Taking the antique laser roundstart
-Hiding traitor objectives because they could be stolen(the handtele belongs to anybody with teleporter access, not specifically the RD; if it belonged to the RD, it would spawn in their office).
-Playing all-access security officer instead of captain (wandering the station looking for threats as opposed to generally managing the crew).

Things that could've been lamer:

Code: Select all

+They cooperated with an antagonist who outed themselves and offered to help the crew. Even though I find that method of playing antagonist almost as equally lame as all-access security officers, it's to the player's credit that they didn't just hunt down and destroy the changeling immediately after they outed themselves.
+The efficient handling of the revolution, as opposed to slaughtering any crew within arm's reach, and not giving in to antag rollers by calling the shuttle as soon as the revolution's over
+To be fair to the appealer: there was a revolution, so working with/behaving like security in that context is fine.

All in all, the first two points are enough for some sort of rule 12 action, note or ban IMO. The fourth point is complicated; refusing to hunt an antagonist is absolutely not playing to win... UNLESS the antagonist is recruited to hunt other antagonists, but that doesn't seem to be the case here at a glance.

i'd agree with you arguing on lolswats behalf due to the shenanigans that round, but i know his playstyle, ive watched it, I used to be it. it was also noted that they've already been noted/punished for this kind of stuff

trust me, this ban is a step in the right direction

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

The biggest thing that I find fault with in this case, that really tips it in to rule 12 territory for me was taking the fireaxe and hiding it in the safe.

Captain wants to outfit himself with gamer gear? Whatever.

Captain hides items other people may potentially try to grab pre-emptively? That's playing to win.

[toemas]

Putting the fireaxe in the safe was literally the most innocuous thing they did what are you talking about. People will break in and steal it consistently every single round if you dont do that

[Striders13]

captains taking antique gun roundstart should be valid to have all their gear stolen by tiders

[iwishforducks]

very happy to see Itseasytosee2me working as admin and this ban was on point and so was their response

[Kendrickorium]

Putting the fireaxe in the safe was literally the most innocuous thing they did what are you talking about. People will break in and steal it consistently every single round if you dont do that

its anti player and anti fun, philip. the entire playstyle is antiplayer. thats the whole point the admins are making here.

[Scriptis]

lisa's playstyle blows and this is a much-needed wake-up call

maybe someday khara will take this same hint (she's doing better but progress is slow, i can only yell at people so much)

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08:36:01	SAY	TheLoLSwat/(Lisa Green) (DEAD) "surely i would be banned if i was actually breaking rules"

lol

[Kendrickorium]

lisa's playstyle blows and this is a much-needed wake-up call

maybe someday khara will take this same hint (she's doing better but progress is slow, i can only yell at people so much)

Code: Select all

08:36:01	SAY	TheLoLSwat/(Lisa Green) (DEAD) "surely i would be banned if i was actually breaking rules"

lol

kharas been talking a LOT more lately, i'm very happy

[toemas]

its anti player and anti fun, philip.

No

the entire playstyle is antiplayer.

Yes

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

Frankly, I wish Lisa would just stop playing Captain altogether. Every time she does that bullshit where she calls and says "give me x recall votes or I wont recall" I have an aneurysm, because her reasoning is explicitly OOC. "The dead can't vote, so we need a voting system that accounts for them!" No, Lisa, you VERY clearly do not understand the concept of not mixing OOC metainformation with what you should actually do for roleplay, as evidenced both by your obnoxious shuttle calls and your hiding the fireaxe and hand tele in this thread.

You are literally just a terrible RPer.

[Pandarsenic]

While I agree with you that the laser is supposed to stay in the case outside of emergencies, you didn't need to barge into a ban appeal thread and piss all over the forum rules to tell people that. Peanut threads exist for a reason.

Other admins hopping in to peanutpost and speculate about policy isn't setting a great example for the candymin.

He asked -- "I just ask what policy captain players have to follow (cap can get it roundstart, cap has to wait until blue, cap has to have actual confirmation of enemies on board)" -- so I provided what clarity was possible to provide, some of which is just "Sorry but there is no written set-in-stone policy of It's always/never okay to take the laser in X/Y circumstances, but here's where you can find the logs to show how the situation is different than it was presented and why that makes it contextually a reasonable decision and not a violation of the 'playing-to-win beyond IC reason' rule."

I think people gotta be realistic in that going from the written abstract rules to concrete server situations is basically done by Vibe and if you're ruining the Vibe that's what gets you slapped. There's no magic number of antag objectives you can hide, no magic number of weapons you can carry. It's just whether your armaments have a Vibe that synchronizes with the round's Danger Vibe.

When an appeal gets an overwhelming "good, you deserved it" peanut response like this one, all we can do is hope to nudge the player toward an understanding of why they have a reputation that would evoke such visceral hostility from the forums.

[Kendrickorium]

yeah, the whole taking the gun out all the time roundstart is just the tip of the iceburg, and the admin goes into detail about all the other things as well

[saprasam]

why do they say the riot armour is better than the carapace? are they daft?
also people who take antique without any good reason deserve a vasectomy. sorry not sorry!

[Kendrickorium]

holy christ lolswat definitely never wrote essays on the hippie forums

good lord

[Capsandi]

Lol their pfp rules unban now

[Togopal]

Lol their pfp rules unban now

After carefully reviewing the ban appeal, I agree with this sentiment. This is how all appeals regarding rule 12 should be handled, going forward.

[MrStonedOne]

Putting the fireaxe in the safe was literally the most innocuous thing they did what are you talking about. People will break in and steal it consistently every single round if you dont do that

The rule is a roleplay enforcing rule. its not about diskish behavior or game hurting behavior, but behavior that has no ic reasoning and is designed to 'play-2-win' or otherwise known as min-maxxing.

Removing the emergency and fire safety critical item from the more open bridge to the more secure captains safe is not "the most innocuous thing they did" its the most obviously not defensible thing they did.

Or to put it another way: The rounds you play are but a minor spattering of highlights of the shifts your character has worked in. Most shifts your character has played has gone properly without so much of a blue alert, and nothing comes from 'a good portion' of blue alert shifts either.

Responding or preemptively countering 'every single round' events is the kind of thing rule 12 is suppose to prevent.

[Ziiro]

IT'S A FUCKING THREE DAY BAN, THIS DOES NOT REQUIRE A DISSERTATION FROM ALL PARTIES INVOLVED

[Kendrickorium]

one of the things i would do on hippie as a warden was completely antag proof the brig - sealed airlocks, sealed doors, sealed vents, cut cams, reinforce armory, etc roundstart

I never got away with this once on tg-- the admins gave me brain damage

when I asked why they politely gave pretty much the same explanation MSO just did

its a really important thing to remember about this game, especially in positions of power and roleplaying.
that is you have to be able to lean back a bit, relax, and let the antags antagonize!

[Kendrickorium]

one of the things i would do on hippie as a warden was completely antag proof the brig - sealed airlocks, sealed doors, sealed vents, cut cams, reinforce armory, etc roundstart

I never got away with this once on tg-- the admins gave me brain damage

when I asked why they politely gave pretty much the same explanation MSO just did

its a really important thing to remember about this game, especially in positions of power and roleplaying.
that is you have to be able to lean back a bit, relax, and let the antags antagonize!

it never occurred to me to actually let the antags get away with their shit, or roleplay at all
for years I took this game as a kill the bad guys simulator, and its only when admins convinced me to drop that shit way of thinking that I started having a lot more fun and making friends
started having even MORE fun when i stopped caring about dying at all

its a game, people! relax and enjoy it, and remember others are trying to enjoy it as well

[Kendrickorium]

yes, i responded to my own post instead of editing

enjoy this triple post

the thread may now be locked

[Agux909]

I like this ban. I like easy2see's responses. Had no idea they were a candidate but they seem to be handling their (first?) appealed ban in an exemplary way. Good for them!

wholesome triple post

I want to kiss Sunshine Day and marry her.

[san7890]

I like this ban. I like easy2see's responses. Had no idea they were a candidate but they seem to be handling their (first?) appealed ban in an exemplary way. Good for them!

-snip-

second (viewtopic.php?f=34&t=33005)

[Agux909]

I like this ban. I like easy2see's responses. Had no idea they were a candidate but they seem to be handling their (first?) appealed ban in an exemplary way. Good for them!

-snip-

second (viewtopic.php?f=34&t=33005)

Oh right! But San, that one didn't even qualify to get a peanut! I want to think THIS ONE was their first REAL appeal.

With stakes, a peanut gallery and a dramatic headmin review at the end, you know.

[san7890]

I like this ban. I like easy2see's responses. Had no idea they were a candidate but they seem to be handling their (first?) appealed ban in an exemplary way. Good for them!

-snip-

second (viewtopic.php?f=34&t=33005)

Oh right! But San, that one didn't even qualify to get a peanut! I want to think THIS ONE was their first REAL appeal.

With stakes, a peanut gallery and a dramatic headmin review at the end, you know.

i don't know i think getting banned for a day over (effectively) being SSD had some stakes to the person who was banned. i see where you're coming from though

[Striders13]

surprised it got lifted tbh. I still think 3 day ban was fair.

[toemas]

Itseasy2see steps in and does what all the admins should have done weeks ago - and then headmins lift the ban. Sad to see

[Itseasytosee2me]

Its fair enough considering their previous warnings were not explicitly targeting this issue. It puts them on thinner ice going forward.

[Kendrickorium]

Its fair enough considering their previous warnings were not explicitly targeting this issue. It puts them on thinner ice going forward.

yeah. they said that about lucy for about 6-8 months

[iwishforducks]

Rectification (in this appeal) asserts that this ban was meant to be a "slap on the wrist", however a three day server ban is considered to be an excessive time to be banned under that line of reasoning.

a 3 day ban is a slap on the wrist

is there no such thing as making people take some time off to reflect anymore?

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Applying three hour bans so they had to come back the next day because their evening was over used to be a funny (if rude) ban punishment for "touch grass" moments

[Timonk]

As a captain main: i am sorry. I take the gun 10/10 times. It's just way too useful of a tool.
Tider annoying? Give him third degree burns
Get attacked by traitor in Maint? Char his leg.
Get chased by a group of revolutionaries? Group burns
Barricades? Gone. Gun recharged on its own.
AI hid ion gun? Skill issue your gun recharged
Laser duel? Guess who got infinite lasers

[Agux909]

Last night I played a few rounds in a row with Lisa as Captain/HoS and I can say with confidence that they have learnt nothing from their ban.

[cocothegogo]

The way they coloured certain words in that thread like they were decorating a Christmas tree is giving me a headache

[Turbonerd]

Last night I played a few rounds in a row with Lisa as Captain/HoS and I can say with confidence that they have learnt nothing from their ban.

Yeah I'm not sure why this one got shortened, considering it was obvious they did not learn anything in their appeal.

[Kendrickorium]

another hippie player that sadly won't make it in the long run

[Bawhoppennn]

Rectification (in this appeal) asserts that this ban was meant to be a "slap on the wrist", however a three day server ban is considered to be an excessive time to be banned under that line of reasoning.

a 3 day ban is a slap on the wrist

is there no such thing as making people take some time off to reflect anymore?

Yeah but I mean it's just a game, let's not be too strict

[iwishforducks]

Rectification (in this appeal) asserts that this ban was meant to be a "slap on the wrist", however a three day server ban is considered to be an excessive time to be banned under that line of reasoning.

a 3 day ban is a slap on the wrist

is there no such thing as making people take some time off to reflect anymore?

Yeah but I mean it's just a game, let's not be too strict

“it’s just a game” yeah then you can handle not playing it for 3 days

[Misdoubtful]

Rectification (in this appeal) asserts that this ban was meant to be a "slap on the wrist", however a three day server ban is considered to be an excessive time to be banned under that line of reasoning.

a 3 day ban is a slap on the wrist

is there no such thing as making people take some time off to reflect anymore?

Yeah but I mean it's just a game, let's not be too strict

Preach. Not about this ban, just in general. They are more than welcome to repeat their mistakes if they so choose and reap the consequences.

[iwishforducks]

Rectification (in this appeal) asserts that this ban was meant to be a "slap on the wrist", however a three day server ban is considered to be an excessive time to be banned under that line of reasoning.

a 3 day ban is a slap on the wrist

is there no such thing as making people take some time off to reflect anymore?

Yeah but I mean it's just a game, let's not be too strict

Preach. Not about this ban, just in general. They are more than welcome to repeat their mistakes if they so choose and reap the consequences.

if a 3 day ban is sacred then i dont want to even think about what it takes to perma some of our worst shitters (SPOILER: INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT)