Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)

[Thunder11]

Bottom post of the previous page:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=33169
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=33171

It happened again gamers

[kayozz]

It's like trying to launch a rocket but NASA forgets to put any fuel in the rocket, so when the pilot decides to climb out of the rocket, NASA decides to sack the pilot. Then rehires him/her but tells them not to do it again.
Exactly like this, but exactly like my other example too.

[BONERMASTER]

Gotta say its pretty cringe the recent trend of admins realising their ban was hot garbage and negotiating the ban reason down to "Did nothing wrong but admits he was in the wrong because I have the power to reject him entirely if he doesnt and subject him to yet more tedious online rules-lawyering by a headmin appeal with no guarantee of an equally fair outcome".

ive noticed this too. admins will backpedal on the worst administrative decision ever seen in the 21st century by going "ok how about i lift your 10 day ban for slipping sec and just leave you with a note " and littletimmy123 who wants to play spessmans again will gobble it up and give praise for "benevolence" without even so much as an apology for overreacting.

If admitting fault and apologizing would make you lose credibility/respect, you didnt have any in the first place

In the end, they'll still slap you with a permanent mark that is already incredibly difficult to appeal on it's own and completely impossible in our biased banana court system, where the same admin that incriminated you gets to determine the conditions of your release. That's why there will be an entire thread (or series) about dealing with these exact kind of admins, so you can have the power to lawfully tell them to go fuck themselves and walk away without any charges.
I see a lot of overlap between these and powertripping / dirty cops, we'll be referring to some footage from "Audit the Audit" (like this one amongst many others https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttfKum235Rg) just so you know what's coming up, it just might be a complete revolution.


With lawful regards
-BONERMASTER

[stairmaster]

I think it'd be very funny if nasa did a televised space launch and the entire crew just committed suicide on air

[Qbmax32]

remember that there are still people who think that negative/neutral notes arent punishments

[Super Aggro Crag]

remember that there are still people who think that negative/neutral notes arent punishments

i disagree with em

[Tearling]

Like considering what damage situations like these actually cause and what the impact of bans or notes would actually provide for then future. What value or change in behavior would be coming from notes/bans for things like these?

Ironically situations like these tend to deal damage to the community's trust in admins more than anything else.

Everyone makes mistakes so I won’t join the hate train, but I think vekter and chesh should really just take a step back, realize they fucked up, apologize and remove all notes/everything. Shoutout timber btw keep it going

This.

we'll be referring to some footage from "Audit the Audit" (like this one amongst many others https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttfKum235Rg) just so you know what's coming up, it just might be a complete revolution.


With lawful regards
-BONERMASTER

Shit, didn't expect to see another audit the audit fan here.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Everyone makes mistakes so I won’t join the hate train, but I think vekter and chesh should really just take a step back, realize they fucked up, apologize and remove all notes/everything. Shoutout timber btw keep it going

The problem is that Chesh has a consistent habit of doing this. He started off really well, he was the one willing to slap the shitters who every other admin was too afraid of doing anything to. But at some point, whether it was burnout or just the inevitable 'When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail' he's fallen out of it.

My personal experiences with Chesh are him always coming up with HIS decision on what you're doing, and no matter how much you try to explain to him that he's wrong, he'll just ignore you and keep insisting that you were doing X. He won't listen to you, he'll come into the ticket with his mind made up and there is nothing you can do to change it. On another server he previously adminned for, I even had him straight up lie about the things I did, permaban me for what every other admin I spoke to agreed would be, IF YOU WERE GOING TO BAN AT ALL, three days tops, and then ban me from that server's discord, which is where that server did appeals, thus effectively trying to blacklist me. If I wasn't friends with the Host and thus had a way to talk to them directly, I would've been blacklisted because he lied about everything and overstepped his boundaries.

I've got nothing against Chesh as a person. I've played FFXIV with him before, and we were good pals. But I absolutely despise him as an admin, and I cannot trust him with any modicum of power and authority.

[RedBaronFlyer]

Tri-Tachyon is cringe, AI is cringe. Non-large slot energy weapons are horrid. High Tech ships last 30 seconds in battle before their battle readiness starts dipping. They use ship systems as a crutch. The Paragon is a crutch, the XIV Onslaught is the superior and more robust capital ship, I'd much rather have two XIV Onslaughts for the same deployment costs of deploying a single Paragon. High-Tech worst tech.

Baffling take, there's a lot to unpack here.
1. AI are based, High Hegemon Thog is just mad they won't date him because he's 5'11". Also AI are 2nd best science-fiction genre trope so they'll make for good storytelling 15 or so years down the line.
2. High tech is based clearly (You) have not spammed infinity phase ships. If we're gonna be talking about deployment costs you gotta check out high-tech phase ships. Also the apogee exists.
3. All the base game capital ships are dogwater but the Onslaught is easily the worst. It feels like you're flying a brick, someone could sneeze at its shields and cause it to overload, and to top it all off its inbuilt thermal cannons are worse than any medium energy weapon while contributing significantly to its flux issues. I'd take an Aurora over a XIV Onslaught day of the week.
4. So long as the abomination that is the Legion exists high tech cannot be worst tech. Astral simply too stronk.
5. Tri-tach's market - friendly theme is a straight bop fr how could you call them cringe

100,000 credits have been deposited into your account.
(also yeah friendly tri-tach theme is pretty good and I have PTSD from the hostile one due to Remenants)

[Bawhoppennn]

You’re responding to your own post, not mine. I’m sure anyone facing this type and amount of criticism would feel awful regardless of whether or not it’s deserved. I don’t see the benefit of adding another voice to the cry when others have already stated my thoughts better than I could. At this point I don’t think there’s anything more to be said other than the long and short of it that they messed up, should acknowledge this and take whatever steps they can to remedy it.

I understand the sentiment on a kindness level absolutely. I do think though having more pressure and criticism might finally force someone who refuses to admit when they constantly fuck up, to actually throw in the towel. Or for their superiors to throw it in for them... Naturally though, it is still a game, so the stakes are low. If you want to be more kind, that is very understandable.

we'll be referring to some footage from "Audit the Audit" (like this one amongst many others https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttfKum235Rg) just so you know what's coming up, it just might be a complete revolution.


With lawful regards
-BONERMASTER

Shit, didn't expect to see another audit the audit fan here.

Youtube likes to spam Audit the Audit for some reason I think. I watched like one video once and suddenly the algorithm thinks I am a huge fan... Also can I just note how Chrome's autocorrect is deathly insistent that I spell Youtube as 'YouTube'?

remember that there are still people who think that negative/neutral notes arent punishments

Should've voted me for headmin, smh. I had a whole system to fix the notes problem, and finally do away with the mental gymnastics that they're somehow not punishments.

I've got nothing against Chesh as a person. I've played FFXIV with him before, and we were good pals. But I absolutely despise him as an admin, and I cannot trust him with any modicum of power and authority.

I agree that this is important to keep in mind. I think every /tg/ admin is a decent person (with one exception.... ), but that doesn't mean they are all amazing at being video game admins. I mean how good you are at being a moderator on a 2d spess game really has no bearing on the quality of your character, standing in the world, or wholeness of life, in the slightest. Nothing wrong if you can't be a good admin on a computer game.

[wesoda25]

You’re responding to your own post, not mine. I’m sure anyone facing this type and amount of criticism would feel awful regardless of whether or not it’s deserved. I don’t see the benefit of adding another voice to the cry when others have already stated my thoughts better than I could. At this point I don’t think there’s anything more to be said other than the long and short of it that they messed up, should acknowledge this and take whatever steps they can to remedy it.

I understand the sentiment on a kindness level absolutely. I do think though having more pressure and criticism might finally force someone who refuses to admit when they constantly fuck up, to actually throw in the towel. Or for their superiors to throw it in for them... Naturally though, it is still a game, so the stakes are low. If you want to be more kind, that is very understandable.

Thanks for respecting that. Was honestly pretty afraid to check the thread when I saw I got quoted three times

[CMDR_Gungnir]

I've got nothing against Chesh as a person. I've played FFXIV with him before, and we were good pals. But I absolutely despise him as an admin, and I cannot trust him with any modicum of power and authority.

I agree that this is important to keep in mind. I think every /tg/ admin is a decent person (with one exception.... ), but that doesn't mean they are all amazing at being video game admins. I mean how good you are at being a moderator on a 2d spess game really has no bearing on the quality of your character, standing in the world, or wholeness of life, in the slightest. Nothing wrong if you can't be a good admin on a computer game.

Yeah, like. I also wanna clarify too because my wording was kinda harsh, I don't hate him as an admin because I think he's power-hungry or anything, even with my story of my experiences. There's that old saying though, that there's nothing more dangerous than a zealot who believes they're doing the right thing.

This is a shitty 2D Atmos Sim so the saying's a bit hyperbolic here, but you get the sentiment. I think his heart's in the right place, I just don't think he makes the right calls. When you get so paranoid that someone can try to explain things from their side and you just go "no you were doing XYZ" it might be time to step back from it for a while, and come back later.

[Misdoubtful]

Some of y'all gotta chill.

[Archie700]

Don't the people know they can file a complaint about it for the case of Vekter?

[TheLoLSwat]

Don't the people know they can file a complaint about it for the case of Vekter?

Admins should be making public complaints when they see their peers mishandling ahelps and situations such as this instead of covering it up by allowing them to walk back the punishment from very unfair to just slightly unfair.

[BONERMASTER]

Don't the people know they can file a complaint about it for the case of Vekter?

Admins should be making public complaints when they see their peers mishandling ahelps and situations such as this instead of covering it up by allowing them to walk back the punishment from very unfair to just slightly unfair.

Fuck admin self regulation.
It is inevitable that power unchecked will lead to corruption. We can't fix human nature, but we can fix the system.

The only solution, the BONERMASTER solution: The players tribunal.
Power from the players to the players.
Power to ban the admins.

Scared?


With powerful regards
-BONERMASTER

[Dax Dupont]

We have a million ways to kill yourself in this game. You have the right to kill yourself especially considering mass suicides are usually funny

[Agux909]

/tg/ station...

► Show Spoiler

WHAT A DISASTER

[Not-Dorsidarf]

I'm not really sure what to think of Cheshify straight up admitting that they know that no rules were being broken but issued a ban anyway.

And again we see the "Negotiating an improper ban down to a black mark on the permanent record despite all parties agreeing no wrong having occured by leveraging your control of their ability to play" thing.

[Agux909]

I'm not really sure what to think of Cheshify straight up admitting that they know that no rules were being broken but issued a ban anyway.

And again we see the "Negotiating an improper ban down to a black mark on the permanent record despite all parties agreeing no wrong having occured by leveraging your control of their ability to play" thing.

Looks like the consequence of this appeal's set precedent is finally rearing its head.
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=32812
Hope I'm wrong.

(tl;dr of that was getting punishment for things that didn't break any rule. In that case griefing during EORG, which was allowed by the current rules. Well, at least back then)

[Archie700]

The main problem is that no one has made an official complaint about what happened.
Not of Vekter or Cheshify.
The ban is even criticized by admins due to the very bad circumstances, but yet no official complaint or request for headmin review is given from the people appealing.

[iwishforducks]

yet no official complaint or request for headmin review is given from the people appealing.

most of our players just want to play the game and don’t care about politics

[Misdoubtful]

yet no official complaint or request for headmin review is given from the people appealing.

most of our players just want to play the game and don’t care about politics

[TheLoLSwat]

yet no official complaint or request for headmin review is given from the people appealing.

most of our players just want to play the game and don’t care about politics

Exactly. Admins would have a much easier time writing complaints from clear misconduct they see (peanut threads come to mind) given their familiarity with the rules but on the other hand they are volunteers that do it out of love (i hope) so we cant hound on them too much like one would with local law enforcement.

[saprasam]

if the round was literally fucking unplayable because of firelocks being broken why in gods green earth would you ban/note people for killing themselves
firelocks being broken because of shitmos is already bad enough but when it's just broken forever i think i'd just end it all there too

this truly is one of the bans of all time. impressive jurisdiction. incredible reasoning. i am truly enlightened

[Tearling]

if the round was literally fucking unplayable because of firelocks being broken why in gods green earth would you ban/note people for killing themselves
firelocks being broken because of shitmos is already bad enough but when it's just broken forever i think i'd just end it all there too

It wasn't unplayable per se but it was not fun whatsoever.
Also yeah, turning the firelocks off did not work. People ended up going around hacking firelocks to keep them from activating on the round I played.

[toemas]

in a situation like this the headmins should intervene and handle it themselves instead of waiting to be summoned

[wesoda25]

Moved to resolved =/

[iwishforducks]

Moved to resolved =/

horrible precedent. really disappointing to see

[BeeSting12]

The pAI deathsquad ban from above was also kinda wild. A simple aheal for all involved and a bwoink telling him to cut the shit this one time would've solved the situation just fine considering that example is probably one of the few times end of round grief is unacceptable. Absolutely nuts. Disappointed to see a lack of headmin intervention on this one.

edit - I recant the last part, headmins came through

[conrad]

remember that there are still people who think that negative/neutral notes arent punishments

It's totally not a punishment. Until it needs to be. Skub for the skub tub.

[CPTANT]

Moved to resolved =/

horrible precedent. really disappointing to see

Yeah what is it with the headmins not giving a shit. I can't imagine they didn't read it, I know they weren't specifically summoned but if you read that appeal as an headmin and think "this is fine" then something is seriously wrong.

[iwishforducks]

Moved to resolved =/

horrible precedent. really disappointing to see

Yeah what is it with the headmins not giving a shit. I can't imagine they didn't read it, I know they weren't specifically summoned but if you read that appeal as an headmin and think "this is fine" then something is seriously wrong.

this term has always felt like they haven't done a whole lot. lots of things were just left in the air when it was very clear action should have been taken. maybe it's just a lack of transparency. i wouldn't want to personally think that any of the headmins have been sitting on their asses. i also felt the same way two terms ago; the last term was great in terms of transparency. i don't think i will vote for anyone from this term ever again

[TheLoLSwat]

the secret to dealing with admin misconduct.

wait for an even bigger peanut thread so you can silently close the complaint / appeal / peanut in one fell swoop!

just kidding i trust head admin team to at the very least be yelling at people and leaving admin notes, but not putting it in the appeal because its an appeal? i might be coping hard for the admins though

[BeeSting12]

look at this guy, he thinks admins get noted for admin misconduct. LOL

[wesoda25]

Whether it’s being dealt with in-house or not it should still be acknowledged publicly. Communication is so easy and goes such a long way.

[Timberpoes]

They weren't moved by the headmins, but the current term's so silent on everything you can't even assume they've properly read the appeals.

However, since none of them have commented at all, I think it's safe to assume either they agree with the outcome or they care so little they're happy someone else moved the appeals so they don't feel any need to form any sort of opinion on them.

Headmins did respond and the reponse was good.

[Archie700]

Well that was a turn.

[Timberpoes]

Thank goodness for that. I retract my previous critique entirety. A good outcome for common sense, if a little slow to get through the works. Glacial but good is still good.

[iwishforducks]

Thank goodness for that. I retract my previous critique entirety. A good outcome for common sense, if a little slow to get through the works. Glacial but good is still good.

a good outcome but i think it's still valid to say there's transparency issues

the decision is lackluster when the admins involved resorted to lashing out against players with mutes and bans. why was that not addressed directly?

[Timberpoes]

That's just par for the course. Not even the admin team will know if parties have been spoken to privately by the headmins.

It's generally poor form to publicly punch down as headmin unless there is bad faith or malice or some other malfeasance involved.

But for pure "public policy" reasons headmins are not likely to discourage admins from placing discretionary bans and notes or shutting off OOC when drama starts, even when wrong to do so. We need admins to feel confident doing so in good faith isn't gonna get them lectured or demoted.

Appeal demeanor is far more important, owning your own mistakes and not treating players as some sort of enemy to be overcome. To me the problem lies there - work with the player to overcome the issues in the appeal and reach a fair outcome. And listen to the player.

[wesoda25]

Happy ending! I think.

[iwishforducks]

Appeal demeanor is far more important, owning your own mistakes and not treating players as some sort of enemy to be overcome. To me the problem lies there - work with the player to overcome the issues in the appeal and reach a fair outcome. And listen to the player.

i agree

[Tearling]

Thank goodness for that. I retract my previous critique entirety. A good outcome for common sense, if a little slow to get through the works. Glacial but good is still good.

Re-visited the chapel incident complaint thread in honor of this result.

Say, Timber, do you still have the chapel incident note? Or did it get removed somewhere along the line?

[Timberpoes]

Thank goodness for that. I retract my previous critique entirety. A good outcome for common sense, if a little slow to get through the works. Glacial but good is still good.

Re-visited the chapel incident complaint thread in honor of this result.

Say, Timber, do you still have the chapel incident note? Or did it get removed somewhere along the line?

Yup, still got it. It was originally a 3-day ban for suiciding with the reason of "Part of the Mass Suicide/Ghost Sniping/IC in OOC destruction of round 137998"

It got reduced to a 1-day ban for "R137998 - Wordlessly joined the suicide pact in the chapel."

That wasn't overturned and still sits in my note history.

It's why I'm so opposed to any other player picking up a note or ban for it. I totally know how it feels to be a player in the moment, then go through the entire appeals process for it.