Guy joins with 3 admins and a player on and tries to play the game normally nut

[MrStonedOne]

Bottom post of the previous page:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=33212

[Bawhoppennn]

Okay counter-argument to why they should be deadminned:
it's kinda funny so let's let it slide

[TheLoLSwat]

Okay counter-argument to why they should be deadminned:
it's kinda funny so let's let it slide

many options just as funny that arent direct admin abuse

[Bawhoppennn]

All the discussion around it is what makes it funny

[TheLoLSwat]

All the discussion around it is what makes it funny

yea this has been a wild ride of a thread

[kayozz]

So admins can pretty much do what they want then just apologise and everything is okay?
Players have been banned for much less.
I hate this level of hypocrisy.

[Archie700]

So admins can pretty much do what they want then just apologise and everything is okay?
Players have been banned for much less.
I hate this level of hypocrisy.

There's no decision from headmins yet.

[chocolate_bickie]

Man this sucks

Imagine if this was a new player had experienced this.

Joined low pop, somehow got to romerol, asked to zombify people (at this point justice spawn a taser).

Then just gets completly blanked and upon going through with there objective, deleted by cheat gun and dogpiled by two admins in dchat.

Justice's behaviour is worse than just admin conduct, they were a dick (rule 1) and were definetly playing to win with that egun (rule 12).

They should be getting a serious note for this behaviour.

[kayozz]

Edit: ignore.

[conrad]

Man this sucks

Imagine if this was a new player had experienced this.

Joined low pop, somehow got to romerol, asked to zombify people (at this point justice spawn a taser).

Then just gets completly blanked and upon going through with there objective, deleted by cheat gun and dogpiled by two admins in dchat.

Justice's behaviour is worse than just admin conduct, they were a dick (rule 1) and were definetly playing to win with that egun (rule 12).

They should be getting a serious note for this behaviour.

I was gonna reply to the thread, but wasn't sure what to say.

Well, this is it. Right here. I'll even add and say a new player might not know the existence of the forums, would just never play tg again, and this would be their only experience.

[Timberpoes]

It depends entirely on the headmin team, but there is strong precedent that it is better to not break conduct at all than to break conduct and ask for forgiveness.

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=28549&p=591672

This headmin team's decision won't be made any easier by the public nature of this complaint and commentary from admins and players alike. But genuine abuse of admin powers for your own benefit has a starting point of deadmin. With enough mitigation there's arguments made for pulling back from a straight deadmin to a demotion, and different severity in demotion to trial or back to square one as a candidate.

If you want some insight into how I would have approached the matter as a headmin last term, I would have proposed two options for Justice12354:
First would have been deadmin.
The second would have been demotion back to admin candidate to be retrained on conduct and behaviour. I would have volunteered to retrain them through their candidacy to this end.

Iain0 I would have suggested speaking to and formally warning, since they clearly understood what happened:

SAY: Iain0/(Bob Stange) (DEAD) "congratulations, you were a dick for no reason" (Recreation Area (66,113,2))
SAY: Iain0/(Bob Stange) (DEAD) "exactly, you're just a dick, and always were" (Recreation Area (66,113,2))
SAY: Iain0/(Bob Stange) (DEAD) "what on earth are you on about, they're in admin mode, if they wanted to make a fight the outcome is entirely their decision" (Recreation Area (66,113,2))
SAY: Iain0/(Bob Stange) (DEAD) "they live, or die, by the buttons they chose to press, nothing else" (Recreation Area (66,113,2))

As a trainer, standards are FAR above this level.

Starlord_Gwyn I would have also suggested formally warning, for much the same reason - they clearly understood what had happened and showed no intent in questioning that in the moment.

I would have also initiated demotion disucssions for both Gwyn and Iain0 as well - simply for completeness sake so I could say we considered the option. The strong likelyhood would have been our term settling on warnings and reminders about admin conduct and being a passive bystander (or active bystander) when they see poor conduct in the future.

Thankfully we have genuine community gems like Misdoubtful that very quickly log dived and spoke out against what had happened.

That's kinda how a lot of processes go. Figure out the entire range of available options, discuss them and narrow down what will happen until everyone is satisfied (or the fewest people are least-satisfied) with the outcome.

By contrast, deadminning aa130 last term was far easier because the nature of their misconduct was uncovered by myself and all the discussion happened in headmin-private. Even the admin team didn't know about it any of the facts until after we'd deadminned them. The decision wasn't influenced by any external factors or opinion.

[Misdoubtful]

Do people realize that in the real world people can't just apologize and have everything automatically be okay?

Oh I ran over your wife I'm so sowwy oppsie!!!! I apologized deal with it teehee! No????? Hello?????

Repercussions still come of things.

Things aren't just forgotten or swept under the rug.

[Hulkamania]

This thread has often repeated that traitors shouldn't murderbone on lowpop, but most people ignore the entire aspect that it was one of their objectives. If we're in the business of punishing people for playing their objectives (The thing the game explicitly gives them as a suggested thing to do) then we are in the wrong timeline.

Policing the round you're already in using admin powers is cringe, particularly (again) when someone is just playing their objectives.

[iain0]

Iain0 I would have suggested speaking to and formally warning, since they clearly understood what happened:

SAY: Iain0/(Bob Stange) (DEAD) "congratulations, you were a dick for no reason" (Recreation Area (66,113,2))
SAY: Iain0/(Bob Stange) (DEAD) "exactly, you're just a dick, and always were" (Recreation Area (66,113,2))
SAY: Iain0/(Bob Stange) (DEAD) "what on earth are you on about, they're in admin mode, if they wanted to make a fight the outcome is entirely their decision" (Recreation Area (66,113,2))
SAY: Iain0/(Bob Stange) (DEAD) "they live, or die, by the buttons they chose to press, nothing else" (Recreation Area (66,113,2))

As a trainer, standards are FAR above this level.

I'll still think this kind of thing can be a dick move - when you know someone else has spent 30 minutes working on something and then you go and ruin it, I'm gonna think thats a dick move. You see it in actual gameplay occasionally too where peoples time invested gets ruined, intentionally or otherwise, and it does just kinda suck. It's part of the game but its hard not to have some empathy for people who threw away their time like that. In this case, maybe it wasn't intentional, but when they double down (quote) "Happy to at least" "Ruin the game" , which prompts my second posting, they just feed into that 'dickishness' take (while this is /probably/ just something said in the heat of the moment). If someone's done something particularly cringe I'll likely mention it in a non official voice.

As for the comments about "live or die by the buttons they press" this is an old thing I have where players will "pray" "1v1 me god" or something similar, and this is in response to the idea that anyone can measure "skill" by having a fight with someone with admin equipment, its meaningless, and I've never understood this "fight god" thing, it only really makes sense in a metagamey OOC IC style approach - the person you're talking to is a literal god, what on earth does 1v1ing a god mean? God is as strong or robust as they create themselves, and most gods have power that dwarfs mortals. Many a god should one shot you. Or if they don't its because they chose not to. This is somewhat different to "as a player admin" for sure in that if you pray you're actively opening yourself up to whatever, while admin characters are (potentially) more constrained. I've occasionally lightninged people into crit, ahealed them, and claimed my divine victory... because what do you expect from fighting a god exactly? why would it be remotely like fighting another player, why would "mechanical skill" be a factor? and ultimately if god does decide to spawn as a normal 1v1 toolbox human its only because they chose to limit themselves to that. Some cross of weird philosophy about what it means to be a divine being, combined with a little "what does this actually mean IC". The same argument applies here in that as spawned in admins, who spawned themselves in weapons, the outcome is rather entirely down to what they chose. They chose a strong enough stun weapon to decimate (I assumed, not seeing this part of the fight because i broke my BYOND client and had to relog in order to read the antag's traitor panel and try determine the motives here) and thus it was never a fair fight and never likely going to be ; an admin creating a fight defines their parameters from no force, normal or overwhelming force, and in this case, it was strongly weighted towards the admin. Skill can be secondary to gear (cue discussions about ""OP"" cult stun, the great equaliser)

And with that all said I largely stay out of the conversation, I have no interest in getting into a fight with a player over what is a non rule breaking action, I gave my input ; that ruining the game they'd invested however long in to was a dick move, and thats that. If everyone had continued to fight in dead chat for extended period I'd likely have said something to ask people to simmer down, officially, either in dsay or asay, not that there was anyone else around initially, but with the fight long over there wasn't a lot to do and I didn't want to get drawn into the dead chat fight and rather move on to discussing how better to set up a game arena that is safely away from other players (justice has since figured out that you can just spawn in the holodeck map overlay on centcom z-level and fix up a few issues with lighting/gravity, so I guess we can all go back to staying the hell away from the station, which was always the route I preferred, since situations like this are simply inevitable)

[Mice World]

I'll still think this kind of thing can be a dick move - when you know someone else has spent 30 minutes working on something and then you go and ruin it, I'm gonna think thats a dick move. You see it in actual gameplay occasionally too where peoples time invested gets ruined, intentionally or otherwise, and it does just kinda suck. It's part of the game but its hard not to have some empathy for people who threw away their time like that.

You could make the same argument for the player. He'd spent around an hour getting to his final objective only to get killed unfairly.

In this case, maybe it wasn't intentional, but when they double down (quote) "Happy to at least" "Ruin the game" , which prompts my second posting, they just feed into that 'dickishness' take (while this is /probably/ just something said in the heat of the moment). If someone's done something particularly cringe I'll likely mention it in a non official voice.

This is obviously just the player acting spiteful after getting killed by an admin and receiving sass once they complain in d-chat about it.

[TheLoLSwat]

I'll still think this kind of thing can be a dick move - when you know someone else has spent 30 minutes working on something and then you go and ruin it, I'm gonna think thats a dick move. You see it in actual gameplay occasionally too where peoples time invested gets ruined, intentionally or otherwise, and it does just kinda suck. It's part of the game but its hard not to have some empathy for people who threw away their time like that. In this case, maybe it wasn't intentional, but when they double down (quote) "Happy to at least" "Ruin the game" , which prompts my second posting, they just feed into that 'dickishness' take (while this is /probably/ just something said in the heat of the moment). If someone's done something particularly cringe I'll likely mention it in a non official voice.

A player tried to interact with people that were on the station because their objectives requested that they do. They also were much more respectful than any LRP antag should be and you guys just blew him off. Anyone would be happy to ruin your silly card game if you use it as a basis to be rude to aforementioned person.


Ill try not to harp on any other points that have been beaten to death, but ill just leave this here

10. Losing is part of the game.

Your character will frequently die, sometimes without even a possibility of avoiding it. Events will often be out of your control. No matter how good or prepared you are, sometimes you just lose.

Anyways, moving on...

a lot of nothing snip

You cant draw any comparisons to your example and this situation because the player in question did not do anything to indicate they wanted to fight an admin OOCly. They RP'd very icly (by LRP standards anyway) and then blew up the card game after being disrespected (on lowpop too which is just crazy because you KNOW they arent doing anything that important). I also want to talk about your wording here:

Many a god should one shot you. Or if they don't its because they chose not to. This is somewhat different to "as a player admin" for sure in that if you pray you're actively opening yourself up to whatever, while admin characters are (potentially) more constrained.

because arent admin characters a LOT more restricted unless an event is going on? However, ill leave it to people with more experience so i dont step too far out of my depth.

And with that all said I largely stay out of the conversation, I have no interest in getting into a fight with a player over what is a non rule breaking action, I gave my input ; that ruining the game they'd invested however long in to was a dick move, and thats that. If everyone had continued to fight in dead chat for extended period I'd likely have said something to ask people to simmer down, officially, either in dsay or asay, not that there was anyone else around initially, but with the fight long over there wasn't a lot to do and I didn't want to get drawn into the dead chat fight and rather move on to discussing how better to set up a game arena that is safely away from other players (justice has since figured out that you can just spawn in the holodeck map overlay on centcom z-level and fix up a few issues with lighting/gravity, so I guess we can all go back to staying the hell away from the station, which was always the route I preferred, since situations like this are simply inevitable)

The big issue with saying this is you imply (or outright state but im not going to go that route if im only 90% sure of it) that you dont care about admin abuse that you were an active witness to because the player did an antagonistic action against admins that spawned in to play a trading card game. This wouldnt even be a big deal if you were just another /tg/ player that wanted to play cardgames with the admins on <10 pop, but you are an admin thats at the VERY least supposed to look out after the little guy (whether that be a new player, the general round health). Your entire response said almost nothing about the actual admin abuse at hand and you spent your time sidetracking with odd rhetoric and then going "well the player didnt break any rules so why should i care". I dont think you understand how crucial other active admins are when it comes to stopping abuse, and it concerns me that you dont show any regret at not stopping clear as day admin abuse because the admin is your friend. Why didnt you think to tell the abusive admin "you dunked on that nerd but we went a bit far, lets apologize because x y and z"? or tell another admin for a second opinion on if its abuse or just an admin dunking? I understand it being lowpop but you arent even showing slight regret for your actions, instead pivoting to the player being mean (for doing tot objectives and asking nicely?)

If you respond to nothing else, can you tell us if you had any plans to talk to Justice in the event the complaint never was made? Would you have went to another admin to atleast ask for another opinion? Would you let it get swept under the rug and laugh about it in a few weeks? The mistake(s) have already been made, but your attitude towards it can make all the difference going forward

[Timberpoes]

<Snip>

As for the comments about "live or die by the buttons they press" this is an old thing I have where players will "pray" "1v1 me god" or something similar, and this is in response to the idea that anyone can measure "skill" by having a fight with someone with admin equipment, its meaningless, and I've never understood this "fight god" thing, it only really makes sense in a metagamey OOC IC style approach - the person you're talking to is a literal god, what on earth does 1v1ing a god mean? God is as strong or robust as they create themselves, and most gods have power that dwarfs mortals. Many a god should one shot you. Or if they don't its because they chose not to. This is somewhat different to "as a player admin" for sure in that if you pray you're actively opening yourself up to whatever, while admin characters are (potentially) more constrained. I've occasionally lightninged people into crit, ahealed them, and claimed my divine victory... because what do you expect from fighting a god exactly? why would it be remotely like fighting another player, why would "mechanical skill" be a factor? and ultimately if god does decide to spawn as a normal 1v1 toolbox human its only because they chose to limit themselves to that. Some cross of weird philosophy about what it means to be a divine being, combined with a little "what does this actually mean IC". The same argument applies here in that as spawned in admins, who spawned themselves in weapons, the outcome is rather entirely down to what they chose. They chose a strong enough stun weapon to decimate (I assumed, not seeing this part of the fight because i broke my BYOND client and had to relog in order to read the antag's traitor panel and try determine the motives here) and thus it was never a fair fight and never likely going to be ; an admin creating a fight defines their parameters from no force, normal or overwhelming force, and in this case, it was strongly weighted towards the admin. Skill can be secondary to gear (cue discussions about ""OP"" cult stun, the great equaliser)

<Snip>

The problem I have is that you clearly knew what was going on, i.e. Justice12354 used admin powers to win the fight in some way, shape or form. Explicitly mentioning to the player they're "in admin mode" and that "the outcome is entirely their decision". Mentioning "they live, or die, by the buttons they chose to press".

SAY: Iain0/(Bob Stange) (DEAD) "what on earth are you on about, they&#39;re in admin mode, if they wanted to make a fight the outcome is entirely their decision" (Recreation Area (66,113,2))
SAY: Iain0/(Bob Stange) (DEAD) "they live, or die, by the buttons they chose to press, nothing else" (Recreation Area (66,113,2))

As a trainer you have to know what Justice did was unacceptable.

An admin spawning themselves into a shift with admin gear and any intent to use it against the ordinary crew not only falls short of this part of admin conduct:

Don't cheat. Do not use admin powers for your own benefit. Don't use your powers to abuse other players.

But also any thoughts that they were doing it as part of an actual event, if you had such a thing in mind, falls foul of this part of admin conduct:

If you need someone to fill a role in-game, such as an event character or someone who is AFK, prioritize players over admins. We're here to create fun for them, not for ourselves. If you are killing or otherwise acting as an antag as an event character yourself, think twice.

It's in the training note we give all new admins to confirm we've taught them about the responsibilities that come with being an admin:

[<font color="red">NO</font>] Correct Adminhelp Procedure, Admin Rules and Conduct, Rule Enforcement and Banning </br></br>

Our trainers are meant to be the best of the best. I want to say I could point at any trainer at random and there'd be a 100% chance that if another admin used their powers in the same way Justice12354 did, they would have called it out in the moment, explained why what they did was problematic and passed the report on to the headmins.

That you didn't step in to reprimand Justice12354's actions in the moment and seemed to support them instead, is reflection that would - if I were still headmin - have me questioning your suitability as an admin trainer.

As part of the triumvirate that promoted you to a trainer, I want to emphasise the solemnity with which I just said the above. I'm not just being a contrarian for the sake of it, for once.

This wasn't just a failure on Justice12354's part. This incident was a combined failure of all admins involved. And I think that is a point of great significance too. It's something you, Gwyn, Justice and every other admin on our team can and should learn from.

[CPTANT]

We have really reached the day admins are saying traitors following their objectives is "being a dick".

A dark day indeed.

[ekaterina]

The tot murderboning in lowpop showed no empathy, someone needs to take him out. I think the admins could've ahelped, but it was 5 pop and the tot literally held the round hostage.
The player probably opened themselves up to getting banned by opening this complaint, they're an obvious bad faith player.

"Muh bad faith" is a made up standard. Antagonist followed rule 4. Deal with it.

Having said that, the murderboning tot had to be punished in some way and Justice most likely reacted in the moment.

"Had to" be punished for doing something that literally broke no rules?

Deadpop murderbone is a rule 12 violation under "play-to-win" with elements of rule 1. Of course, this requires invoking Rule 0.

Per rule 4, rule 12 does not apply to antagonists. Obviously.

The fact that lowpop murderboning is incredibly cringe and absolutely something you'll get bwoinked for doesn't make this not clear-cut admin abuse.

You cannot punish a player for doing objs on lowpop SURELY. Words like murderbone are being thrown around but it doesn't seem like this to me at least... The players on the holodeck were also kinda...rude? Like, they weren't nice to the antag here they basically told them to fuck off and the antag acted in turn to fuck them over. Seems fair to me!

Spawning weapons in so you can play singleplayer coop on the station z-level as a DMPC is a big, big yikes. Acting like you did nothing wrong afterwards is a big, big yikes.
If we don't allow antags to antag properly on lowpop, we should probably look to disable creating them entirely until they're allowed to kill.

Once again, Ocelot has the correct opinion

The player did absolutely nothing wrong, they were simply playing the game within all the rules and got abused for it. Very clear cut case for the headmins.

Agreed. I second all of these objectively correct takes.

Absolutely not. Admins MUST be held to a higher level of scrutiny, and even ignoring that, the player did an annoying but not rule-breaking thing

Once again, WineAllWine has the correct opinion.

[mfw I notice there are 3 more pages of drama]

yeah deadmin, this shit is unacceptable. Plain and simple

No doubt the easiest part about this situation would be deadminning thunder (for me it's the fact that they taunt the player for having low hours). But what about the other two admins? This will probably be the reason the complaint will take a while to process.

Even though other admins werent directly involved, they should also be reminded to stand up to other admins when they are about to or are doing clear abuse. It doesnt sit right with me that this admin only apologized after being called out with overwhelming evidence (along with a peanut thread applying additional pressure), when they and other admins involved wouldnt have cared about the blatant abuse if the player didnt make a report. Although this problem solves itself with the report being made (in the case of the abusing admin), the other two admins still shouldnt be left off the hook for being passive spectators to abuse.

While I agree that this is clearly unacceptable, I am left to wonder if straight-up deadminning one or more of them over a single instance of misconduct where the only damage was one round (as opposed to, say, an abusive ban where a player was kept for several hours or days out of the game) is excessive. However, I agree that the other two admins who were present should also be investigated, as iwishforducks points out and thelolswat develops.

I wasn't really following what was going on in the scene up until the holodeck exploded and the game was ended

iain0 stated they really weren't aware of the situation

Iain0 I would have suggested speaking to and formally warning, since they clearly understood what happened:
[snip - proof from logs]

Does this mean... iain0 lied in ahelps lied in the forum?

This thread has often repeated that traitors shouldn't murderbone on lowpop, but most people ignore the entire aspect that it was one of their objectives. If we're in the business of punishing people for playing their objectives (The thing the game explicitly gives them as a suggested thing to do) then we are in the wrong timeline.

One more based take for the list, from the chadmin who reinvented the escalation policy.

I also didn't spawn the gun out of salt, because that was far before the real conflict began (...) the truth is that I got overly attached to the match Gwyn and I had been building up and, in the heat of the moment, the salt got over me (...) I understand my conduct in that exchange of words was unacceptable and not even close to the standards we're held up to (...) At the moment I didn't realize it, but now I understand that my conduct was far away from acceptable (...) With all of this in mind, I'd like to apologize to Virescent for unfairly using admin weapons against them and for my overall unprofessionalism. I take all the blame for the outcome of the conflict and I realise that I should've been better and taken this position as an Administrator far more seriously.

Do people realize that in the real world people can't just apologize and have everything automatically be okay?

While Misdoubtful is correct, this isn't the real world, it's a videogame and its respective organisation. The only real damage was one round of a videogame. While Justice's apology does not make his wrongdoing vanish, it certainly does ameliorate it. It is also noteworthy that he responds with honesty as to the nature of his actions, admitting that it came from anger instead of using the anti-murderbone lynch mob as a cover.
The headmins should consider both the small scope of the damage cause and the honest apologetic response from Justice when deciding on the appropriate course of action.

[iain0]

Firstly to note that it can be a dick move AND fully within the rules. That is the case here. I've previously mentioned in my posts that had the holodeck parties ahelped the bombing I'd have marked it IC, because it is. Being a dick and playing within the rules aren't mutually exclusive.

The problem I have is that you clearly knew what was going on, i.e. Justice12354 used admin powers to win the fight in some way, shape or form. Explicitly mentioning to the player they're "in admin mode" and that "the outcome is entirely their decision". Mentioning "they live, or die, by the buttons they chose to press".

As a trainer you have to know what Justice did was unacceptable.

Sure, but by that time they've already killed the captain with their own weapon. It's already fucked, and even if I'd decided to delete Justice's character I dont think I could have reacted in time, especially not since I'd had to relog and reopen things due to BYOND being awesome. I know things are fucked by them killing the cap and they'll have a dubious decision to answer to the headmins for, but its just done at that point. And as an admin, yes, Justice literally "decided" the outcome of this fight, thats part of whats unfair about it, it wasn't a balanced skilled measure of anything.

I've already stated my take on "did things go wrong", absolutely, killing the tot is clearly going too far. I wouldn't even be comfortable with stunning them, though there are arguably paths that can play out IC from there as suggested by other posters. Personally (and already stated elsewhere in this post) I'd have probably just gibself'ed at this point as admins in-context really shouldn't be conflicting with the antags (though arguably even gibself is the lame route out from an RP perspective). So, sure, I do know, but once they lethally attack the deed is done and it's rather automatically on the headmins plate.

This was also clearly not an event, this was just admins spawning in to play some game on a quiet low pop shift, it's more akin to playminning but isn't even really that, they're not interested in the round or being involved in it, but implicitly are by having spawned into it, its just a mess, and why my gut feeling is just against using the holodeck in the first place like this.

As for intervening, wasn't really the option other than during the dead chat phase which I quickly distanced myself from, and as mentioned, had it continued I'd have tried to stop it and direct it towards the complaint forum.

I'm also not really sure what rank AT's pull over normal GMs. Certainly giving input is fine but as a GameAdmin it was always 'dont tread on others toes', and while AT certainly ranks over their candidates, and should probably report on trialmin issues to their trainer, game admins feel more like they just answer to headmins and potentially GMs might take a stance. I may have underestimated my coverage, but with the admin complaint quickly filed everything is pretty much on the path it should be.

We have really reached the day admins are saying traitors following there objectives is "being a dick".

A dark day indeed.

And this is just putting words in my mouth. Ruining a 30 minute game so you can 1 population romerol is a dick move. Thats not an administrative ruling however as it all falls under rule 4 which is pretty sacred ground, i'm not really sure what the romerol conclusion would be either, admins aren't supposed to be antags either and I still think suiciding out early is the best move here. Given the antag is the only legitimate player there simply isn't anyone to romerol and it's kinda pointless on a 1 pop station anyway. There were probably other approaches, like I could have deadminned and being a bored scapegoat for 10 minutes while the shuttle arrived, though since you'd then have to attack the 1 player antag on the station I guess you end up dead as a zombie pretty quick too. But I also dont like this, admins aren't supposed to be antags and I'd rather just remain separated entirely. That said its a 1 pop station so I guess some ground can be given to helping the crew/antags out with odd requests. But overall, its just my opinion, and unless i need to 1984 myself more I think its fine to have an opinion, as long as my rulings remain consistent to the rules (i.e. as stated, IC issue here with the actual bombing part, which is a phrase that doesn't really apply to what happened next, but there's nothing wrong with ruining the game, which may not even be intended, though i dont know how else this encounter could end). Just also kinda sucks. Such is the game sometimes.

The objectives are largely pointless still. But they can persue them. Or not. They can just blow up the holodeck for literally no reason, romerol or not. Thats their freedoms.

(and to cover off comments about 'my awareness', i'm certainly not paying attention until the explosion sound happens, after which I break my BYOND and relog and then watch the kill happen. As soon as they start lethally attacking the tot I know things have gone wrong, thats kinda where the hard line lies, with the stunning being a softer line depending on what happened next)

[Sightld2]

Traitor gaming while 5 people are on is cringe

You say that - but I've had a discussion about this before and the admins at the time disagreed with your sentiments.
There's literally nothing in the rules that suggests a player cannot play the traitor role on low pop.

Also abusing your admin powers to kill a player is far more cringe than someone trying to play the game.

I didn't say I agreed that admin intervention/abuse should be exercised in response. I agree that it's a degree worse especially since Admins are expected to be held to a higher standard.

That being said, I also disagree that there's nothing in the rules remotely suggesting against this type of play. Lowpop murder-bone is against the rules, zombies I would think count as that no? But Rules-Lawyering aside, I really wish everyone would think about the other people playing the game with them. By unleashing zombies, what have you achieved beyond superficial green letters on an end round screen? You "win" I guess. I understand there's also not much interesting you can do as a Traitor with 5 people on, but I think being considerate about the fun they're having would be cool or whatever. I would think that if you want to "play the traitor role", is it really as fun if its just list of fetch-quest jobs with no resistance? Just to bring a round where others are actively enjoying something to a close? I'd think that if you really want to enjoy the traitor role, maybe it'd be better to accept that that's kinda impossible with 5 people on, and instead look for a different server.

I dunno, I don't play on LRP so maybe thats just me.

[datorangebottle]

I feel like a lot of people are missing a point- the game doesn't function at this low of a population. Objectives don't matter at this point of low population. Pursuing them is extremely lame. There was nobody to antagonize. There was no round ongoing to ruin with admin abuse. There was no challenge or stakes. This affected all of one player. If you're comparing it to vehicular manslaughter, you might be overreacting.

[ekaterina]

I feel like a lot of people are missing a point- the game doesn't function at this low of a population. Objectives don't matter at this point of low population. Pursuing them is extremely lame. There was nobody to antagonize. There was no round ongoing to ruin with admin abuse. There was no challenge or stakes. This affected all of one player. If you're comparing it to vehicular manslaughter, you might be overreacting.

It doesn't matter if it's lame or not, it doesn't justify admin abuse - and, here, you're the one missing the point.

As to your second point, I agree with the conclusion but not the reasoning. It's not about how many people it affects. Randomly banning one player out of 90 would also "affect[] all of one player" and it would nonetheless unequivocally be gross abuse. It's about how much it affects. In this case, it affected one round of one player. Very limited effect - comparing it to manslaughter is a significant exaggeration.

[CPTANT]

We have really reached the day admins are saying traitors following there objectives is "being a dick".

A dark day indeed.

And this is just putting words in my mouth. Ruining a 30 minute game so you can 1 population romerol is a dick move.

It's a bit weird that say words are being put in your mouth, only to say just that.

[datorangebottle]

I feel like a lot of people are missing a point- the game doesn't function at this low of a population. Objectives don't matter at this point of low population. Pursuing them is extremely lame. There was nobody to antagonize. There was no round ongoing to ruin with admin abuse. There was no challenge or stakes. This affected all of one player. If you're comparing it to vehicular manslaughter, you might be overreacting.

It doesn't matter if it's lame or not, it doesn't justify admin abuse - and, here, you're the one missing the point.

As to your second point, I agree with the conclusion but not the reasoning. It's not about how many people it affects. Randomly banning one player out of 90 would also "affect[] all of one player" and it would nonetheless unequivocally be gross abuse. It's about how much it affects. In this case, it affected one round of one player.

I'm not saying that it justifies the abuse, or that the abuse was deserved. I'm using that lameness to point out that people are acting like they had a dog named 'rule 4' and that the abusive admin in question kicked it down the road like a soccer ball.

Was spawning in a gun bad? Yes. Was it so bad that they can't apologize for it? Probably not.

p.s. banning one player out of a 90 player round affects not just the banned person, but also the other 89 players who now have to play without that person. In an active round, each person is still important because of the flow of information, items, and interactions.

[BONERMASTER]

I feel like a lot of people are missing a point- the game doesn't function at this low of a population. Objectives don't matter at this point of low population. Pursuing them is extremely lame. There was nobody to antagonize. There was no round ongoing to ruin with admin abuse. There was no challenge or stakes. This affected all of one player. If you're comparing it to vehicular manslaughter, you might be overreacting.

Best take, fully agree.
Admin apologised, the player is OK with it, nothing more that needs to be done.


With manslaughtering regards
-BONERMASTER

[WineAllWine]

I feel like a lot of people are missing a point- the game doesn't function at this low of a population. Objectives don't matter at this point of low population. Pursuing them is extremely lame. There was nobody to antagonize. There was no round ongoing to ruin with admin abuse. There was no challenge or stakes. This affected all of one player. If you're comparing it to vehicular manslaughter, you might be overreacting.

No, no; we've been over this. This is an admin complaint nut, not a ban appeal. We aren't arguing over the player's behaviour. we're arguing whether the thing the admin did was abuse, (it seems to me we've concluded it was) and then what the punishment should be.


--------------------------

[Removed after reading some logs I;d missed: oopsie-doopsie]

[ekaterina]

Admin apologised, the player is OK with it, nothing more that needs to be done.

Perhaps this is enough, perhaps not. I'm not entirely sure myself, and, judging by the lack of decision yet, I don't think the headmins are either. In any case, there is one more thing to do: for the headmins to determine whether the other two admins present engaged in any wrongdoing or notable negligence, or neither.

[Tearling]

If you're comparing it to vehicular manslaughter, you might be overreacting.

I somehow doubt that anyone here thinks that this situation is anywhere near the extremity of vehicular manslaughter. They're using an analogy to get a point across, which is the exact point of a comparison.

[Capsandi]

Force catastrophic meteors every minute after 15 mins in when pop is under whatever we are calling lowpop nowadays. Also wtf is lowpop even some people think its <20 some people think its <35 like whats the deal.

[WineAllWine]

Force catastrophic meteors every minute after 15 mins in when pop is under whatever we are calling lowpop nowadays. Also wtf is lowpop even some people think its <20 some people think its <35 like whats the deal.

I call catastrophic meteors when I want the crew to call the shuttle, but honestly they're not a big deal. Even a catasrophic one is fine, most hallways remain pressurised and youve still got an AI & Comms

[iain0]

It's a bit weird that say words are being put in your mouth, only to say just that.

I feel that
"Following your objectives is being a dick" is a very sweeping statement that at face value touches on every antag at every population doing any objective, rather a silly statement in a void. That said if you pick all the murder objectives intentionally on low pop it is kinda cringe still. So there's some very much better qualified version of this statement, but generalising it to the degree you do here is just overdoing it.
"Destroying something when people have spent 30 minutes on it is a bit dickish" is what I actually am saying. Note their actions here dont even complete the objective (they completed it according to round end even without converting anyone), and there is very likely a resolution here that doesn't involve destroying the game (such as delaying conversion or other administrative intervention as per my self-sacrificial-scapegoat cringe suggestion)

I dont see these statements as the same because they draw that the conclusion is reached from different sources, and the one I state is a consistent feeling that applies to other situations where something with time invested gets needlessly trashed. The other statement is clearly not generally applicable, which is what you drew from what I said apparently.

(Edit: And it's all just IC no matter even why an antag trashes anyone's something, just to be clear, but the above clarifies what I said with that opinion and why)

[Timberpoes]

Sure, but by that time they've already killed the captain with their own weapon. It's already fucked, and even if I'd decided to delete Justice's character I dont think I could have reacted in time, especially not since I'd had to relog and reopen things due to BYOND being awesome. I know things are fucked by them killing the cap and they'll have a dubious decision to answer to the headmins for, but its just done at that point. And as an admin, yes, Justice literally "decided" the outcome of this fight, thats part of whats unfair about it, it wasn't a balanced skilled measure of anything.

I've already stated my take on "did things go wrong", absolutely, killing the tot is clearly going too far. I wouldn't even be comfortable with stunning them, though there are arguably paths that can play out IC from there as suggested by other posters. Personally (and already stated elsewhere in this post) I'd have probably just gibself'ed at this point as admins in-context really shouldn't be conflicting with the antags (though arguably even gibself is the lame route out from an RP perspective).

You're an admin! I would expect any admin to remedy the situation.

Discuss the conduct breach with Justice12354. Call out Gwyn for gloating about the prospect of a complaint. Revive the player they killed. Apologise to the player for the inconvenience. Place a weekban on Justice12354 for cheating in a weapon leading to an unjust kill.

What would I have done in that situation? "Uh, Justice bro, you better apologise to 'em, revive 'em and start to unfuck that ass. What were you thinking? Then get your ass a batcave with the headmins and tell 'em you fucked up, there may be a valid complaint incoming and you might just make it out with a first and last warning not to repeat that again."

... So, sure, I do know, but once they lethally attack the deed is done and it's rather automatically on the headmins plate.

At what point in your time as an admin have you ever seen someone killed for no reason and ruled "Well, he killed you for no reason. I know things are fucked but hey, the deed is done. If you'd ahelped while he was attacking you maybe I could have spoken to him about not attacking you and prevented it. But too late for that now. I can't talk to him. I can't revive you. My hands are tied. It's in the past."

And I want to be very, very clear about this. It is only on the headmin's plate because the player formally complained about it.

If the player had not complained, would this be on the headmin's plate right now?

I'll say what I see: I am 100% positive that if the complaint wasn't made, you wouldn't have reported it and Gwyn wouldn't have reported it. There was absolutely no indication at all from deadchat or ASAY or anything that you even thought what Justice12354 did was an issue!

I'm also not really sure what rank AT's pull over normal GMs. Certainly giving input is fine but as a GameAdmin it was always 'dont tread on others toes', and while AT certainly ranks over their candidates, and should probably report on trialmin issues to their trainer, game admins feel more like they just answer to headmins and potentially GMs might take a stance. I may have underestimated my coverage, but with the admin complaint quickly filed everything is pretty much on the path it should be.

To pick another piece out, it's not so much rank pulling. Admin Trainers know admin conduct, else they wouldn't (or shouldn't) be trusted with training up future players to know and understand what is right and what is wrong as an admin.

Look at how you acted and reacted to this incident and tell me you'd be happy if a candidate you were training did what you did.

It's not your job to enforce admin conduct, but it every admin's job to call out conduct breaches as and when they are seen. As a trainer, you are an experienced admin. You already know this. You already know what a conduct breach is. You already know you shouldn't sit by quietly when genuine conduct breaches happen. You don't join in the conversation calling a player that just got admin abused a dick, I'll give you that one for free.

There's no concept in the admin team of someone being able to do genuine conduct breaching admin abuse and the other admins being powerless to stop them due to rank. All admins are equipped with the ability to place admin bans for a reason, and admin bans don't pull rank. If I caught a Headmin seriously breaking conduct, I'd ban 'em without a second thought if I couldn't lecture 'em about it first.

Everything here applies to Starlord_Gwyn too with modified context that they supported the end result even more and felt so self-assured there was no issue here that they re-assured Justice there'd be nothing to answer for in the complaint.

They failed in their responsibilities as an admin as well.

[conrad]

btfo

I like Timberpoes.

[Archie700]

That being said, I also disagree that there's nothing in the rules remotely suggesting against this type of play. Lowpop murder-bone is against the rules, zombies I would think count as that no? But Rules-Lawyering aside, I really wish everyone would think about the other people playing the game with them. By unleashing zombies, what have you achieved beyond superficial green letters on an end round screen? You "win" I guess. I understand there's also not much interesting you can do as a Traitor with 5 people on, but I think being considerate about the fun they're having would be cool or whatever. I would think that if you want to "play the traitor role", is it really as fun if its just list of fetch-quest jobs with no resistance? Just to bring a round where others are actively enjoying something to a close? I'd think that if you really want to enjoy the traitor role, maybe it'd be better to accept that that's kinda impossible with 5 people on, and instead look for a different server.

I dunno, I don't play on LRP so maybe thats just me.

Lowpop murderbone is not against the rules in LRP by itself. It is frowned upon, and may result in action if the person has done it repeatedly or has shown that he really only cares about killing people.

[Misdoubtful]

... So, sure, I do know, but once they lethally attack the deed is done and it's rather automatically on the headmins plate.

At what point in your time as an admin have you ever seen someone killed for no reason and ruled "Well, he killed you for no reason. I know things are fucked but hey, the deed is done. If you'd ahelped while he was attacking you maybe I could have spoken to him about not attacking you and prevented it. But too late for that now. I can't talk to him. I can't revive you. My hands are tied. It's in the past."

And I want to be very, very clear about this. It is only on the headmin's plate because the player formally complained about it.

If the player had not complained, would this be on the headmin's plate right now?

I'll say what I see: I am 100% positive that if the complaint wasn't made, you wouldn't have reported it and Gwyn wouldn't have reported it. There was absolutely no indication at all from deadchat or ASAY or anything that you even thought what Justice12354 did was an issue!

This right here is the biggest thing I can't help but keep in mind and I'ver had in mind since the moment I saw that this issue had technically three admins involved in it.

I can't help but think about it and ask, how many times have admin conduct violations happened that were not brought to the headmins attention? How many floated under the radar? I don't know, because this is a serious red flag when it comes to peoples integrity.

When I've headmined servers some were SO bad about this that I didn't have a choice but to comb through logs of the game daily in certain circumstances for certain actors that raised my suspicions. Thats shitty micromanagement no one wants to deal with and the solution is the ground floor people, the admins, holding each other accountable, especially those that train UP admins.

Quite frankly I don't give a shit if the person is another admins friend or not, I'd like to believe we all have the integrity to do what is right even no one else is looking and it could have been gotten away with and sweeped under the rug. This passing of the baton 'oh someone will let them know via a complaint' doesn't fly. Why would an issue like this not be raised up before the complaint was ever even made? As you said, what if the dude NEVER made that complaint?

It doesn't matter if the issue has nothing to do with you, you see it, you take ownership of it, and you do what you can to make it right. Accountability starts with YOU, not some schmuck.

If an admin knows what to do in these situations and intentionally doesn’t do what they’re here to do, we are going to do far more damage letting it slide because other admins (and players) see that we don't care if they also don’t do a good job.

And I'm not saying this to target anyone, I'm saying it in general out of principle.

[Sightld2]

That being said, I also disagree that there's nothing in the rules remotely suggesting against this type of play...-

Lowpop murderbone is not against the rules in LRP by itself. It is frowned upon, and may result in action if the person has done it repeatedly or has shown that he really only cares about killing people.

Yes I agree, I carefully used the words "remotely suggesting" in response to someone above who I interpreted to have said that there was absolutely nothing even hinting at discouraging this type of play.

[cybersaber101]

All these dumb arguments and quote replies OMEGALUL.

[Kendrickorium]

[cybersaber101]

I wish I watched the muppets when I was a kid, that would have been awesome.

[RedBaronFlyer]

You know, I can make some really dumb calls in hindsight but at least I try to stay good intentioned in the end. I don't think Justice can say the same in this situation which makes me sad.


World is a fuck

BORN TO DIE / WORLD IS A FUCK / Kill Em All 2563 / I am spessman man / 410,757,864,530 DEAD GREYTIDERS
BORN TO DIE / WORLD IS A FUCK / Kill Em All 2563 / I am spessman man / 410,757,864,530 DEAD SHITSEC

Spoiler:

(I couldn't choose which one I liked more)

[Timberpoes]

All these dumb arguments and quote replies OMEGALUL.

You mean conversation?

[Gwyn]

Starlord_Gwyn I would have also suggested formally warning, for much the same reason - they clearly understood what had happened and showed no intent in questioning that in the moment.

I would have also initiated demotion disucssions for both Gwyn and Iain0 as well - simply for completeness sake so I could say we considered the option. The strong likelyhood would have been our term settling on warnings and reminders about admin conduct and being a passive bystander (or active bystander) when they see poor conduct in the future.

I would like to clarify somewhat actually. I wasn't aware the admin Justice had spawned in a cheat gun until the logs were put on the forums. I hadn't seen the spawn datum, and I was in hardcrit when it was used from taking an X4 hit and a shotgun blast to the head immediately as the altercation started.

I also wasn't aware at the time that romerol-ing the crew was his objective, from our conversations while at the holodeck he talked about it as if he just wanted to do that impulsively to try it out. I'm not sure what the logs say on what his objectives were, or if I missed a chat message where he elaborated that it was his mission.

From my perspective, I was invited on a sub-5 player lowpop round by an admin to try out the new card game holodeck stuff, we were just hanging out there and the only other person on the station, the antagonist acting captain, even joined in for conversation and was hanging out previously before the events the logs describe. One of the tricky parts of this is that me and Timberpoes talked about in a previous conversation is this original situation kind of blurs the line between playminning and event, because the (sole) crew was invited to join in and was socially interacting and playing along up to a certain point. He asks a few times if he can romerol us because "he really wants to do it", we politely ask him not to because we need functioning hands for the card game, then he leaves.

Later he comes back and we have the situation we described in the logs. We're in the middle of settling a card round, he tries to interject a few times, then after maybe 15 seconds feels we're not talking enough to him and says "oh so you're ignoring me are you?" and before we can respond bombs the holodeck, blowing me into softcrit and then hardcritting me with a shotgun. I hear the sounds of several lasers and guns go off, and by the time I turn into a ghost, I see him in stamcrit and then being killed by his own weapon he dropped.

Because of the information I was lacking up until the log-pull, what I thought happened was there was a duel between a captain with basically all the gear on station and an uplink against a person firing back with a standard laser gun. Having a fair fight with the antag captain even having advantage over the last remaining people onboard but losing seemed like a far more reasonable outcome than what actually happened, and I joined the deadchat conversation with this perspective. When he was complaining in there, I called him cringe for murderboning on an extremely lowpop round, which it seems most of the posters here agree is bad player behavior, and then salting about it. (Though bad admin behavior is somewhat worse than bad player behavior.) I then mistakenly thought in admin chat that this would make for a bad admin complaint. Not gonna lie, look like an idiot now saying that. I was completely off-base.

I'd like to adress some final small points. There's a lot of concerns being voiced here that this was an instance of admin-friending at its worst. I've only started playing again recently, and have interacting with Justice for maybe 3 days, I barely know them. Timberpoes also floated the idea of admintraining us again. My first admin training was done by a game master that isn't around anymore, MortoSasye, and the training was kind of cut short due to circumstances at the time. During my promotion, I stated I felt my training wasn't sufficient yet and I wasn't ready, but other admins at the time assured me that showing humility in that situation was good enough of a sign to continue the promotion. I'm out of practice after a hiatus as well, and honestly wouldn't mind getting trained again, for my own good.

Lastly, I think this whole situation appeared more from misunderstandings, miscommunication and getting too salty rather than any malice from admins towards the playerbase. It was a mix of circumstance, a handful of bad calls and annoyance that led to a pretty toxic situation that in the end admins were responsible for. I don't, nor do I think any of the other admins involved, have any ideas of superiority over players or would normally believe it acceptable to just admin-button you out of the round. As for Justice, I believe Timber's suggestion of demotion rather than deadminning is more appropriate in this situation, I don't believe them to be a bad faith actor or a person who would normally or habitually do this. In the end, that is up for headmins to decide, though. Feel free to reply with any questions if you have them, and I apologize for the damage I inadvertently caused to the faith players have in our administration.

[conrad]

Here's a few ways the analysis of the situation could've gone better:

- Right click player when they ask about Romerol; Show player panel, traitor panel, check objetives. It should show as "Traitor Specific Objectives";
- Literally communicate ock ick that you're testing something. If being a tot and completing objectives is suck a dick move, is it as bad as just voicing "Yo we're admins and we're testing something, sorry mate could you leave us alone?";
- Spawn carbons for them to test their objective. Remind them that there's 4 people alive, and one of them is a miner on a different Z level;
- Quite frankly, give the player a tot antag token for their time wasted;
- Maintain cool and composure. You're not that important, you're just an admin. You and the player are both humans.

I think Gwyn getting admin training is a valid idea. I think Justice getting demoted is also a valid idea. Imagine if this was highpop, and there was an actual salt inducing problem happening. I don't have trust that a high pop ticket would've been handled properly by those two admins.

[Misdoubtful]

Nobody will always have all the details when things are happening (it happens for everyone across the board it's a fundamental element of the game) but just please for the love of God, don't dogpile or dunk on people in dchat like that.

The benefit of the doubt goes a long way in many situations and especially in this game. Nobody is going to blame you for not having all the pieces in a situation like this, but they will look at how you act on what you have and what you question, especially as an admin.

Even if the player was 100% without a doubt wrong in this situation or wasn't, I'd still be encouraging them to make a complaint or talk through what happened if they felt something was amiss. It can be the only way for them (and everyone else) to find out for sure sometimes.

I'd rather we all be encouraging people to make complaints with a sense of pride knowing we aren't doing the things we need to not be doing. Then we just look great when the complaint flops.

Otherwise we have to consider how these things will look when our dirty laundry gets aired, and as you've seen here, it looks pretty bad.

[Gwyn]

Even if the player was 100% without a doubt wrong in this situation or wasn't, I'd still be encouraging them to make a complaint or talk through what happened if they felt something was amiss. It can be the only way for them (and everyone else) to find out for sure sometimes.

I'd rather we all be encouraging people to make complaints with a sense of pride knowing we aren't doing the things we need to not be doing. Then we just look great when the complaint flops.

Completely agree with this, this is was my intention, even if salt got in the way. Players should always be informed they can make an admin complaint when they disagree with the admin's conduct, and it's the best way to keep us accountable.

I think Gwyn getting admin training is a valid idea. I think Justice getting demoted is also a valid idea. Imagine if this was highpop, and there was an actual salt inducing problem happening. I don't have trust that a high pop ticket would've been handled properly by those two admins.

I don't think this situation could've happened on high-pop, as the circumstances of a fundamentally dead station are much different. Though I do think I'm a bit sluggish and inefficient at logdiving, I can handle things like escalation violations, grief or inappropriate IC/OOC well, this circumstance was something entirely different, and I've learned to act with far more caution if I recognize something similar again.

[Misdoubtful]

I know this would probably be better said in adminbus but if you have questions on how to do things or how to better do things: you don't have to be an admin candidate or trialmin to ask and learn to do them, or even to ask people to let you know if they a certain kind of ticket comes up you'd like more experience with, some kinds are just really rare. Any trainer would be as willing to teach you something new or review things for you as they would for their own candies, other admins would too.

The game state, our tools, and the types of tickets will always be shifting around and there is always something new to learn. Doubly so for admins.

[Gwyn]

I know this would probably be better said in adminbus but if you have questions on how to do things or how to better do things. You don't have to be an admin candidate or trialmin to ask and learn to do new things, or even to ask people to let you know if they a certain kind of ticket comes up you'd like more experience with, some kinds are just really rare. Any trainer would be as willing to teach you something new or review things for you as they would for their own candies.

The game state, our tools, and the types of tickets will always be shifting around and there is always something new to learn. Doubly so for admins.

Mhm. I've just been out of it for a while and got stuck in my habits when it comes to adminning. Even if it isn't required I think I'll request retraining.

[cybersaber101]

All these dumb arguments and quote replies OMEGALUL.

You mean conversation?

ya, I'm uneducated on the price and economy of gravel as of late so my quality of life has gone down dramatically.

[Kendrickorium]

how HAS gravel been these days

[Epicgamer545]

It’s important to know when and why to interact in a round, as your presence as a commander or otherwise can influence player behavior and otherwise make or break the entire round.

It’s a proper rule that even I am still learning, but I’m confident anyone can learn and master it with the right steps.

[Qbmax32]

200th post get