Awful Dungeon Master In Training, a Manuelmin Story Peanut

[Kendrickorium]

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=33374

when, when will they learn

[NecromancerAnne]

There is a history established of certain behaviors related to this and similar actions getting out of hand. That's not dismissable, and does speak to a history of recklessness with regards to their actions using dangerous equipment. That said, a benign incident seems like a weak excuse. I think Maia is being slated for a perma if this is all it takes for a ban.

But, what I'm wondering is exactly how they earned notes for plasma/trit floods. Is it excessive or that they did do it at all being the issue? It doesn't even mention status in relation to those notes, and I don't think I've heard of Maia flooding as a nonantag. Was the supermatter shard incident as a nonantag?

These kinds of bans do make me wonder what is happening behind the scenes exactly. How concretely is a profile on a player being built, and whether or not it has basis in the rules. I suppose we'll see come admin response.

[EmpressMaia]

There is a history established of certain behaviors related to this and similar actions getting out of hand. That's not dismissable, and does speak to a history of recklessness with regards to their actions using dangerous equipment. That said, a benign incident seems like a weak excuse. I think Maia is being slated for a perma if this is all it takes for a ban.

But, what I'm wondering is exactly how they earned notes for plasma/trit floods. Is it excessive or that they did do it at all being the issue? It doesn't even mention status in relation to those notes, and I don't think I've heard of Maia flooding as a nonantag. Was the supermatter shard incident as a nonantag?

These kinds of bans do make me wonder what is happening behind the scenes exactly. How concretely is a profile on a player being built, and whether or not it has basis in the rules. I suppose we'll see come admin response.

the SM shard was as a non antag, me and another engie were working on it and scuffed it by accident

ive never trit/plasma flooded as a non antag

[EmpressMaia]

by "history of abuse" haricros just means a few times where i fucked up as atmos or was being very stupid as an antag

[vect0r]

Is that a... DOUBLEPOST???

[Hoxha]

Is that a... DOUBLEPOST???

in their own peanut thread at that

[Turbonerd]

They should've placed a holofan and firelock regardless of whether the tator escaping alive was perceivable or not. Those sort of things should have some form of security if they're in a public place, especially if it's departures.

Aside from that, I think it's fucking ridiculous that passive healing allowed the traitor to get up from a plasmafire and escape. I hope I find out what passive healing the tator had so I can remove it when feature freeze ends. Passive healing is a cancer to the game and this is an example of passive healing making this game be lame.

People should be able to dump someone in a plasmafire or slit their throat off to finish someone off in a cool way, without having to round remove them first just in case they have one of those ridiculous passive healing things. Fuck this shit.

[rasonj]

This is the same person that got a Manuel ban overturned very recently. viewtopic.php?f=7&t=33318
I will quote them from their previous appeal

[NecromancerAnne]

Aside from that, I think it's fucking ridiculous that passive healing allowed the traitor to get up from a plasmafire and escape. I hope I find out what passive healing the tator had so I can remove it when feature freeze ends. Passive healing is a cancer to the game and this is an example of passive healing making this game be lame.

Healing viruses, plasma fixation especially relevant here, are passive healing. Wounds have a mild heal attached to them through determination. Maybe they ate a bit of food or were smoking omnizine cigs. They're a plant person (though fire hurts those guys real bad). The entire healing chem system. The Asclepius rod.

You got a lot of work cut out for ya, buddy.

[BONERMASTER]

I was expecting a wild story about a DnD session spiraling out of control and getting everyone banned! The Title has literally nothing to do with the ban itself except for "roleplay" like come on DUDEEE. I'm so disappointed!


With crushed regards
-BONERMASTER

[NecromancerAnne]

This is the same person that got a Manuel ban overturned very recently. viewtopic.php?f=7&t=33318
I will quote them from their previous appeal

"them succumbing doesn't remove you from culpability"

Man, this was a bad one. Lemme just kind of refamiliarize myself.

"I also want to note that I still don't think the mime objectively lost their right to adminhelp when they succumbed. It just means that we would treat the situation as if he'd been crit and not take into account the fact that he died. There's nothing necessarily wrong with not wanting to sit there and wait for someone to revive you if you don't intend on continuing to play the round, but we obviously can't say "You killed him" if all you did was put him into light crit and he succumbed."

So the issue is the fight happened at all? I know this isn't about this appeal in particular but fucking goddamn. He escalated with a fucking sword. He opted to enter the conflict and increased the lethality. Even if he was the defender in this scenario as suggested by Vekter, since the mime was in control of the escalation, he opted to force Maia into lethal combat, and heavily lethal at that, to stop the fight. Proper escalation still exists on Manuel and was being followed here.

I've seen this shit before, unfortunately having to also have the puck shuffled down to me to deal with it, and definitely the end result is that someone has most likely decided Maia is two inches from being perma'd if they only had enough notes to do the job. I've not run into anything particularly egregious from Maia in my own experiences with her that would make me think its her personality that is the issue, it's that she's louder and more active than most players, willing to get a little messy and let things get out of hand, and willing to be actively a threat when an antagonist.

Hugbox isn't quite how I would view this, as I think plenty of other players could do these same things and not even receive any admin attention at all. I think it might be an example of some players standing out too much and getting slapped down if there is something they do that might be misconstrued as bad behaviour/is bad behaviour in the case of fucking up a few times learning the ropes of the game, and it more often than not starts with someone with a bone to pick.

[Ryusenshu]

I was part of the cleanup crew of that fire
It really was relatively small and controlled fast, since atmos lagged out alot

[Super Aggro Crag]

this is a spiteban.

[rasonj]

I really miss playing on manuel, but I find the policies surrounding sabotage and public projects are overtuned and innovation killers. I think it should be encouraged to create things that are able to be sabotaged by other players. More interaction = good.

[Constellado]

I am dissapointed to see this ban.

Why is that? We are playing a game called space station 13, and if somebody cannot do self defense in a creative way, what is the point of the game? Do we want manuel ss13 to be a game where the only way to kill antags is with classic weapons? Do we want to shun people from making fun enginnering based kill devices? Even if its to kill a traitor as a non antag? Now, if that device kills half the crew, then sure, it is warranted a ban. but this? This didnt really hurt anybody, and they got a 4 day ban for it. Who cares if they have a bad note history, other players like me will see this and think: "Maybe I shouldn't do something like that in the future". Is this something we want? I play almost exclusively chief engineer on manuel, and the best times I have had was rounds where I would fix damage that was caused by the crew. The only time I didnt like it was when somebody used hellfire foam in the hallways.(mainly because it took a very long time to dissapear, but! once it did disspear the damage was fixed in 5 minutes) But this? This is something that I would find welcome in a round, and would give me something to do.

Sure, this can warrant a note, and I guess, if there are enough notes then maybe it turn into a ban. The issue is that I do not know what these notes are, so when I see this all I think is: "I cannot do this kind of thing on manuel? sad." I also beleive that other people that read it will think the same.
This ban has brought many questions into my mind. Is there a way that we can clear up exactly what kind of creative projects are allowed on manuel, and what would warrant a note or a ban? I have seen engineers build all kinds of crazy contraptions, would I have to ahelp it when it is causing issues? Or when I can see it going wrong? Would me as a CE get a note for letting it be built (even if I didnt touch the contraption) if it goes wrong?

I also wonder if I, with a clean note history, get a free pass if I did this exact thing... I'd damn hope not. Because if so, this would make it a spite ban 100%.

[Kendrickorium]

I was expecting a wild story about a DnD session spiraling out of control and getting everyone banned! The Title has literally nothing to do with the ban itself except for "roleplay" like come on DUDEEE. I'm so disappointed!


With crushed regards
-BONERMASTER

its the admins job to create fun and interesting circumstances for the player, like a dungeon master would.
an admin punishing a player on a ROLE PLAY server because they did something that could be construed OUTSIDE THE BOUNDARIES OF THE GREAT AND MIGHTY MANUEL RULEBOOK, would likely make an absolutely awful dungeon master.

I hope that explains my thread title.

With explanatory regards
-KENDRICKORIUM

[NecromancerAnne]

Now that the responses have hit, I'm genuinely unsure how we've reached a point where culpability for project or construction failure now comes with an attached punishment if exploited by antagonist action. I would have thought it dealing with a much smaller issue but these guys are about ready to establish some policy around this that seems more far reaching than I thought. Isn't the entire the point of antagonists to make things go belly up?

1) This establishes a method by which an antagonist can attack your continued ability to play this game if your project is even a little bit dangerous and close enough to a public space. My first thoughts are engineering and atmos on meta as primary examples of where this might become an issue.

2) Your project has to be entirely isolated from players whatsoever for this not to be a potential risk factor.

3) Both of these things beg the question as to why bother doing this kind of thing if nobody can be possibly present to interact with it, or run the risk of someone with the funny role doing their thing?

Why can this be the rationalization we've hit? What precedent does this set? What is the expectation for play if things can be allowed to go wrong? Why are we actively establishing ban loopholes?

There is a difference maliciously ineffective containment methods going bust in a public area (old tesla setups that absolutely would just blow containment for example), and someone actively sabotaging something that normally wouldn't run that risk without intervention. Vekter and Harricross believe the precedents meant to apply to the former cover also the latter, which is absolutely not the correct application of that precedent.

I'm so tired of seeing this every week...

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Now that the responses have hit, I'm genuinely unsure how we've reached a point where culpability for project or construction failure now comes with an attached punishment if exploited by antagonist action. I would have thought it dealing with a much smaller issue but these guys are about ready to establish some policy around this that seems more far reaching than I thought. Isn't the entire the point of antagonists to make things go belly up?

1) This establishes a method by which an antagonist can attack your continued ability to play this game if your project is even a little bit dangerous and close enough to a public space. My first thoughts are engineering and atmos on meta as primary examples of where this might become an issue.

2) Your project has to be entirely isolated from players whatsoever for this not to be a potential risk factor.

3) Both of these things beg the question as to why bother doing this kind of thing if nobody can be possibly present to interact with it, or run the risk of someone with the funny role doing their thing?

Why can this be the rationalization we've hit? What precedent does this set? What is the expectation for play if things can be allowed to go wrong? Why are we actively establishing ban loopholes?

There is a difference maliciously ineffective containment methods going bust in a public area (old tesla setups that absolutely would just blow containment for example), and someone actively sabotaging something that normally wouldn't run that risk without intervention. Vekter and Harricross believe the precedents meant to apply to the former cover also the latter, which is absolutely not the correct application of that precedent.

I'm so tired of seeing this every week...

Honestly, half the fun is when shit goes catastrophically wrong. And y'know what? Someone making a silly project that gets out of hand, or exploited by an Antag is the best way for it!

SS13's greatest aspect, and the point that Manuel should be striving for, is stories! I'm gonna remember the time that Engineering's singularity project got sabotaged, leading to a desperate attempt to make it to one of the few ways off-station (Public Mining, Cargo's Mining Shuttle, the Gulag Shuttle) without being shlorp'd by the Singularity, far more than I'm going to remember the 5th time in the last 3 days that the Blob spawned in Icebox's HFR room or bottom floor of the prison and destroyed the stairs, leading to a situation where the crew lacks any way to fight it because it lacks multi-z interactions.
EDIT: Note: Something on the scale of 'Engineering tried to make a Singularity for the shiggles" should have Admin Approval, so that it doesn't happen every round and get stale. This paragraph was mostly hyperbole because an exaggerated point is easier to demonstrate.

Even on a smaller scale, having a section of the station that's 'cordoned off' for a while while Engineering fixes the atmos and the hallways because the Atmos Tech's public-display open-turf burn chamber got sabotaged is going to have a very interesting and deep effect on the round. Engineering's now out of their department, making a Supermatter sabotage easier to start, but it also means that outside of those staff, who are going to be working bit-by-bit, that area of the station's now a ghost town, and some of the ambient crew are going to be drawn there to sit outside the firelocks and stare in, mouthbreathing.

And in both cases, it's thematic as fuck. SS13, the station, is not supposed to be a super safe place. It's a deathtrap. That's why rounds end with the Emergency Shuttle. Things Going Wrong should be encouraged and allowed, as long as it's not done maliciously. I burnt Atmos to the ground a couple days ago, because I forgot that Hydrogen was invisible and extremely flammable, when I fucked up trying to work with the HFR (where the FUCK do the pipes go??? I thought I'd put them right, but apparently I was wrong). The Metal Hydrogen I was trying to make was of absolutely no benefit to the actual station, as all I planned to do with it was make my axe for the bragging rights that I'd done it myself for the first time. Is the only reason I shouldn't be noted or banned for it the fact that it was done in Atmos?

Let people make their projects. If the Traitor had been conscious and standing when it was done, that would be one thing, as it's a very real chance he'll break out and that'd be willful negligence. But how could Maia have possibly known that he had a healing virus? She, rather reasonably, thought the dude was going to stay on the ground.

Things Going Wrong Because Of Something Unexpected That Nobody Could Reasonably Have Prepared For is the soul of this game.

[BeeSting12]

Manuel bans are such a guaranteed good peanut thread because they're almost always bad. This is a case where the secret rule at the bottom of the wiki page should have been applied instead of the banbo- I mean admin - giving a four day ban because of the player's history. Absolutely a spite ban

[Scriptis]

this ban is gross

come get on sybil. with the exception of killing people with it, you can build this shit all you want as nonantagonist. we need more creative types

[BeeSting12]

Yea it looks like empressmaia just doesnt match the MRP playstyle manuel admins want, which is unfortunate because I think it's a good ss13 playstyle, but if he keeps playing there he'll just earn a ban from all tg servers. I sincerely hope other admins will see the note history and take it with a grain of salt once they see it's from manuel.

[Constellado]

1) This establishes a method by which an antagonist can attack your continued ability to play this game if your project is even a little bit dangerous and close enough to a public space. My first thoughts are engineering and atmos on meta as primary examples of where this might become an issue.

2) Your project has to be entirely isolated from players whatsoever for this not to be a potential risk factor.

3) Both of these things beg the question as to why bother doing this kind of thing if nobody can be possibly present to interact with it, or run the risk of someone with the funny role doing their thing?

This. There are many projects that will only be worth it if the crew could see it. For example, there was a couple engineers that built an sm engine that uses disposals to throw an sm shard backwards and forwards. Thats cool, but only worth it in a visible space. So they did that, and it turned out fine, and had no issues. Was a great thing to look at. Now what if that got sabotaged? Would the people who made it get a note for it? If so, that is uncool in my book and ruins the spirit of the game.

[Indie-ana Jones]

This shit is so stupid. When do these kind of bans stop?

[NoxVS]

Now that the responses have hit, I'm genuinely unsure how we've reached a point where culpability for project or construction failure now comes with an attached punishment if exploited by antagonist action. I would have thought it dealing with a much smaller issue but these guys are about ready to establish some policy around this that seems more far reaching than I thought. Isn't the entire the point of antagonists to make things go belly up?

While I haven't really looked into the ban that much to see how accurate this is, I imagine a big part of it is trying to have a difference between a project failing catastrophically due to sabotage despite efforts taken to make it safe and a project failing catastrophically due to sabotage because barely anything was put into keeping it safe. I still remember all the times where cargo would make a singularity that "accidentally" got released and ended the round. At a certain point, carrying out a project that is dangerous, has 0 actual benefit, and has barely any effort put into keeping it safe seems like you are just waiting for someone to sabotage it so you can feign surprise.

[iwishforducks]

this is an official “manuel moment”

i remember recently i attached a knife to a cleanbot pAI and watched it cut the shins of like 20 people on accident. in comparison, the cleanbot did more damage than that plasmafire ever did. easily the most fun ive ever had.

not only that, but maia also went out of their way to make a chamber for it and made sure their victim was dead and therefore wouldn’t break out.

[BrolyButterfingers]

They should've placed a holofan and firelock regardless of whether the tator escaping alive was perceivable or not. Those sort of things should have some form of security if they're in a public place, especially if it's departures.

Aside from that, I think it's fucking ridiculous that passive healing allowed the traitor to get up from a plasmafire and escape. I hope I find out what passive healing the tator had so I can remove it when feature freeze ends. Passive healing is a cancer to the game and this is an example of passive healing making this game be lame.

People should be able to dump someone in a plasmafire or slit their throat off to finish someone off in a cool way, without having to round remove them first just in case they have one of those ridiculous passive healing things. Fuck this shit.

It was, I believe, full-thresholded starlight healing, they threw me up against space-exposed windows and I managed to activate my hardsuit right before the fire was ignited.

[CPTANT]

This shit is so stupid. When do these kind of bans stop?

They won't, this is what Manuel players want. A hugbox where noting ever happens and they have a virtual greenshift that lasts for 3 hours so they can do their projects.

This shit happening again and again is also why I am in favour of separating Manual and LRP administration. I don't want people that think this way to admin Terry or Sybil, even if they supposedly adjust for the LRP ruleset.

[BrolyButterfingers]

Now that the responses have hit, I'm genuinely unsure how we've reached a point where culpability for project or construction failure now comes with an attached punishment if exploited by antagonist action. I would have thought it dealing with a much smaller issue but these guys are about ready to establish some policy around this that seems more far reaching than I thought. Isn't the entire the point of antagonists to make things go belly up?

1) This establishes a method by which an antagonist can attack your continued ability to play this game if your project is even a little bit dangerous and close enough to a public space. My first thoughts are engineering and atmos on meta as primary examples of where this might become an issue.

2) Your project has to be entirely isolated from players whatsoever for this not to be a potential risk factor.

3) Both of these things beg the question as to why bother doing this kind of thing if nobody can be possibly present to interact with it, or run the risk of someone with the funny role doing their thing?

Why can this be the rationalization we've hit? What precedent does this set? What is the expectation for play if things can be allowed to go wrong? Why are we actively establishing ban loopholes?

There is a difference maliciously ineffective containment methods going bust in a public area (old tesla setups that absolutely would just blow containment for example), and someone actively sabotaging something that normally wouldn't run that risk without intervention. Vekter and Harricross believe the precedents meant to apply to the former cover also the latter, which is absolutely not the correct application of that precedent.

I'm so tired of seeing this every week...

This ban creates a lot of perverse incentives for players (both antagonists and assholes) to commit sabotage in order to get other players in trouble OOC. I can just imagine all the non-loggable ways you can cause harm with even basic contraptions like a monkeygrille conveyor by just combat-mode walkpushing someone onto the belt and then ahelping it, or standing in a doorway and letting all the gas out without letting it close, that make this kind of enforcement REALLY easy to game, and that's just if I wanted to be a prick as a non-antag. If I'm an antag I can just break peoples' shit and wait for someone else to ahelp it.

this was an antagonist interaction, and the plasma was released by an antagonist. The non-antag shouldn't be liable here.

[vect0r]

I have asked for clarification on the rule under which they were banned, so hopefully we find that out soon…

[vect0r]

I have asked for clarification on the rule under which they were banned, so hopefully we find that out soon…

[Constellado]

This shit is so stupid. When do these kind of bans stop?

They won't, this is what Manuel players want. A hugbox where noting ever happens and they have a virtual greenshift that lasts for 3 hours so they can do their projects.

I don't think this is actually the case. Personally, I want to see interesting things to happen in a round, and these rulings causes people to play by the book, and never do anything interesting.

Also the proposed changes to the MRP policy to do with antags and escalation also says otherwise to your point. Would it be happening if people wanted a pillow fort hugbox server? I'd be expecting the opposite.

If I want a hugbox I can move to another server. I don't want Manuel to be a hug box. I don't want to hold back building projects in fear of getting banned, either.

[CPTANT]

This shit is so stupid. When do these kind of bans stop?

They won't, this is what Manuel players want. A hugbox where noting ever happens and they have a virtual greenshift that lasts for 3 hours so they can do their projects.

I don't think this is actually the case. Personally, I want to see interesting things to happen in a round, and these rulings causes people to play by the book, and never do anything interesting.

Also the proposed changes to the MRP policy to do with antags and escalation also says otherwise to your point. Would it be happening if people wanted a pillow fort hugbox server? I'd be expecting the opposite.

If I want a hugbox I can move to another server. I don't want Manuel to be a hug box. I don't want to hold back building projects in fear of getting banned, either.

The changes to antags and escalation that have been debated for ages and never get implemented?

[Constellado]

The changes to antags and escalation that have been debated for ages and never get implemented?

Yep, those. My bet is it's being held back by some admins backroom, who knows what's happening back there. Oh also the AI can murderbone when malf in Manuel now, so that's cool. I'm pretty sure that's recent.

this is an official “manuel moment”

i remember recently i attached a knife to a cleanbot pAI and watched it cut the shins of like 20 people on accident. in comparison, the cleanbot did more damage than that plasmafire ever did. easily the most fun ive ever had.

To be honest I think these admins just hate gas floods. Like... I put a knife on a PAI cleanbot too and didnt get a bwoink. All in good fun.

[Timberpoes]

This has to be a targeted ban at the player and not their actions.

I don't see what was a rule break here. Just an SS13 moment.

[NecromancerAnne]

While I haven't really looked into the ban that much to see how accurate this is, I imagine a big part of it is trying to have a difference between a project failing catastrophically due to sabotage despite efforts taken to make it safe and a project failing catastrophically due to sabotage because barely anything was put into keeping it safe. I still remember all the times where cargo would make a singularity that "accidentally" got released and ended the round. At a certain point, carrying out a project that is dangerous, has 0 actual benefit, and has barely any effort put into keeping it safe seems like you are just waiting for someone to sabotage it so you can feign surprise.

I do agree that this is the precedent in question, it's what I mentioned actually and that's exactly the distinction to be made, but I think even that needs some careful consideration to prevent outright negating this as a possibility. I do think the occasional wilful negligence can be fine, it's more it to an excessive degree that makes it an issue.

All things in circumstance and situation, of course.

[NecromancerAnne]

This has to be a targeted ban at the player and not their actions.

I don't see what was a rule break here. Just an SS13 moment.

The fact that discussion about the situation in Manuelcord is being brought up here is kind of petty and unprofessional. Like, come on, players don't have to take bans lying down. Even this seems like it hinges on the player being grossly snivelling about the situation.

I hate this presumption of guilt and need for punishment, rather than using these administrative actions as an opportunity for discussion. This shouldn't be how admins conduct themselves. You can have a conversation about the situation without the expectation that they are verbally prostrating themselves before you and still come to the conclusion and understanding that the player in question didn't mean ill-will, even if things did get out of hand.

Whoever is training these folk, please, try and wring this out of new admins, it's how we've ended up in this awkward administrative turmoil.

[BONERMASTER]

If so, that is uncool in my book and ruins the spirit of the game.

Fuck the spirit of the game.


With unruly regards
-BONERMASTER

[Timberpoes]

The fact that discussion about the situation in Manuelcord is being brought up here is kind of petty and unprofessional. Like, come on, players don't have to take bans lying down. Even this seems like it hinges on the player being grossly snivelling about the situation.

I hate this presumption of guilt and need for punishment, rather than using these administrative actions as an opportunity for discussion. This shouldn't be how admins conduct themselves. You can have a conversation about the situation without the expectation that they are verbally prostrating themselves before you and still come to the conclusion and understanding that the player in question didn't mean ill-will, even if things did get out of hand.

Whoever is training these folk, please, try and wring this out of new admins, it's how we've ended up in this awkward administrative turmoil.

Oh, believe me when I say that it's not a taught thing. We do try to wring it out. But once any admin leaves immediate and instant oversight, they learn through observing others.

There's massive visibility in admin channels, but zero in asay. All our new admins are trained to come to bus for help and advice since you get the best spread of views, opinions and expertise.

Manuel issues tend to get solved in asay. Usually by the same small group of admins. New admins learn this behaviour and repeat it.

Of course, how do admins learn to use asay instead of adminbus?

Usually when issues like this are brought into adminbus, the overwhelming response is some flavour of "explicitly allowed by the rules and the spirit of the game, no matter how much you personally dislike it or the player as an admin".

Do the maths on that.

[CPTANT]

You can say its a new admin thing, but Vekter seems to thoroughly support the ban.

[EmpressMaia]

You can say its a new admin thing, but Vekter seems to thoroughly support the ban.

I've argued with vekter in discord so he probably personally dislikes me

[EmpressMaia]

And by argued I mean I called him an incompetent ass who would do better admining skyrat

[CPTANT]

Why is he allowed to shamelessly peanut post in an appeal is is not involved with in the first place?

[Annihilite111]

While i find Maia to be an extremely annoying person, this ban is clearly bullshit and another example of manuelmins deciding that a player is bad for the community and then finding reasons to perma them. Vekter being complicit is the smoking gun here, because from what i've seen i don't believe that he is capable of empathising with players as fellow people.
Please Headmins, just assign another admin as his handler. I know you keep him around because he's obsessively active but he clearly cannot handle nuanced bans, as evidenced by the insane amount of absurd appeals he's been involved in.
Surely you have a few lying around who're on the less stubborn side of the autism spectrum.

[Timberpoes]

Why is he allowed to shamelessly peanut post in an appeal is is not involved with in the first place?

He isn't. They were reported and this has been remedied.

[EmpressMaia]

While i find Maia to be an extremely annoying person, this ban is clearly bullshit and another example of manuelmins deciding that a player is bad for the community and then finding reasons to perma them. Vekter being complicit is the smoking gun here, because from what i've seen i don't believe that he is capable of empathising with players as fellow people.
Please Headmins, just assign another admin as his handler. I know you keep him around because he's obsessively active but he clearly cannot handle nuanced bans, as evidenced by the insane amount of absurd appeals he's been involved in.
Surely you have a few lying around who're on the less stubborn side of the autism spectrum.

What makes me annoying?

[EmpressMaia]

While i find Maia to be an extremely annoying person, this ban is clearly bullshit and another example of manuelmins deciding that a player is bad for the community and then finding reasons to perma them. Vekter being complicit is the smoking gun here, because from what i've seen i don't believe that he is capable of empathising with players as fellow people.
Please Headmins, just assign another admin as his handler. I know you keep him around because he's obsessively active but he clearly cannot handle nuanced bans, as evidenced by the insane amount of absurd appeals he's been involved in.
Surely you have a few lying around who're on the less stubborn side of the autism spectrum.

What makes me annoying?

[Ryusenshu]

Im just gonna say that Firefighting is often pretty fun, and its a shame that in most cases estinguishers are only used for:
- Pyro slimes
- Spicy SM
- non-human bonking

Not sure where the Atmosian Content is on manuel if all you can do is make funny gas and thats it, because there is almost never a fire to fight or a flood to handle

edit:
And yes, the picture that shows the spread of the fire on the appeal seems pretty accurate from what ive seen
While there was a bunch more plasma at departures, none of it ignited before the shuttle left, and the shuttle ride was pretty safe (if we disregard fights)

[CMDR_Gungnir]

While i find Maia to be an extremely annoying person, this ban is clearly bullshit and another example of manuelmins deciding that a player is bad for the community and then finding reasons to perma them. Vekter being complicit is the smoking gun here, because from what i've seen i don't believe that he is capable of empathising with players as fellow people.
Please Headmins, just assign another admin as his handler. I know you keep him around because he's obsessively active but he clearly cannot handle nuanced bans, as evidenced by the insane amount of absurd appeals he's been involved in.
Surely you have a few lying around who're on the less stubborn side of the autism spectrum.

I don't always agree with Vekter, but generally I've found him relatively easy to cooperate with, in personal experience. I've had cases where I erroneously murdered a few Golems because they were being Mild Shitters and had the Lavaland Golem Debuff despite being built on station, and he didn't even place a note on me for it.

In my personal experience at least, as long as you can calmly explain why you did what you did, and that you understand what you did wrong, he's relatively easy to work with.

[RedBaronFlyer]

This shit is so stupid. When do these kind of bans stop?

They won't, this is what Manuel players want. A hugbox where noting ever happens and they have a virtual greenshift that lasts for 3 hours so they can do their projects.

This shit happening again and again is also why I am in favour of separating Manual and LRP administration. I don't want people that think this way to admin Terry or Sybil, even if they supposedly adjust for the LRP ruleset.

Honestly most of the players on manuel I've seen have generally been in support of increased sabotage and such, but just don't want it to be the kind of situation where people turn medbay into a crater every round because their target was in medbay. Does it have flaws compared to LRP? Absolutely without a doubt. There are definitely some people who get their jimmies a bit too rustled if anything negative happens to them (me included sometimes admittedly)

but saying "Oh manuel is a hugbox where people burst into tears if an antag kills someone" is 100% disingenuous and incorrect. I've played on a few servers, and Manuel has been one of the few that can both survive having a kinda slow greenshift/low threat round and also have super high-intensity rounds that results in 80-90% crew casualties without too much salt. If Sybil can do that as well then that's fantastic but LRP just isn't my cup of tea.

This has to be a targeted ban at the player and not their actions.

I don't see what was a rule break here. Just an SS13 moment.

The fact that discussion about the situation in Manuelcord is being brought up here is kind of petty and unprofessional. Like, come on, players don't have to take bans lying down. Even this seems like it hinges on the player being grossly snivelling about the situation.

I really hope this doesn't turn into yet another "admin accepts that the ban was bullshit, but the player accepts a note" thing that has been happening as of late. Most of those should have been no note at all.

A borged nightmare a few days ago broke a plasma statue while smashing other statues and started a SMALL low intensity (less than 20 tile) fire ON ACCIDENT that almost immediately got extinguished, only one person got hurt (me running through the fire because funni and it was minor burns) and they got note because of it.

Sometimes it feels like there's a player list and if anyone is on the list, then they get way more severe punishments where someone else would just get a finger wag for doing the same thing. At the same time it feels like there's another list of people who only get meanly worded notes at best for shit that would get anyone else banned, even though they've been doing the same shit over and over for months on end and are nearly universally recognized as a bad faith player that regularly breaks the rules or nearly breaks the rules.

[BeeSting12]

This is honestly such an ss13 moment, I hate that a player got banned over this. Traitor is on the edge of death, makes a nutty escape at the absolute last second. Sounds like a fun round tbh manuel mins need to stop taking everything so seriously