RP rules rewrite discussion

[Itseasytosee2me]

Seen here: viewtopic.php?t=33481

[Itseasytosee2me]

This is an improvement from what we have had certainly, and gives players alot more freedom and encouragement to act in character.
However, i think they are overly vauge when it comes to dealing with confirmed traitors or other antagonists and the examples of crime and punishment inflicted could reasonably have been done by non-antagonists, making this somewhat non confrontation with the normal rule 4, which i think was the opposite if their intent.
If the ruling is indeed trying to make security treat antagonists and non antagonists the same under the eyes of the law, i think that is contrary to the rule requiring playing a realistic character.
Im also iffier on escalation, it’s certainly better than before but i would like the definition of “relaxed escalation” spelled out clearly next to current escalation policy, as the term is used beyond the context of MRP traitors.

[RedBaronFlyer]

I'm cautiously optimistic about the changes. I look forward to seeing more plasma floods and bombings. Hopefully, it isn't just constant "I waited for my target to go into medbay then bombed medbay to kill as many people as possible" every round though. That was my experience on goon and it kinda turned me off of SS13 for a bit because it would happen almost every round.

[NecromancerAnne]

It's not quite that bad, but certainly I think the emphasis on objectives has been to the servers detriment. Completion over setup and payoff. Not that I think it any antagonists fault, their mechanics hinge on it.

[Annihilite111]

It's not quite that bad, but certainly I think the emphasis on objectives has been to the servers detriment. Completion over setup and payoff. Not that I think it any antagonists fault, their mechanics hinge on it.

Who looked at Manuel, saw "ROLEPLAY SERVER" and decided that it would be best to tie all allowed behavior directly to game mechanics?

[ekaterina]

I don't play on MRP so my opinion here is mostly limited to the following:
I like rule 3 and would like to see it brought over to LRP as well (with a minor adaptation: that warden only outranks officers when giving out sentences, not outside the brig).

I find rule 6 interesting and I'm considering trying out MRP but I would obviously dislike rules 4 and 9 as an LRP player, considering those restrictions are part of the broad "why LRP players play LRP".

If the ruling is indeed trying to make security treat antagonists and non antagonists the same under the eyes of the law, i think that is contrary to the rule requiring playing a realistic character.

I don't. Crime is crime and the law is blind. A traitor who only commits petty theft shouldn't be executed on the spot.

[NecromancerAnne]

It's not quite that bad, but certainly I think the emphasis on objectives has been to the servers detriment. Completion over setup and payoff. Not that I think it any antagonists fault, their mechanics hinge on it.

Who looked at Manuel, saw "ROLEPLAY SERVER" and decided that it would be best to tie all allowed behavior directly to game mechanics?

It's not a rule. You can actually ignore your objectives for something else. The only thing you can't do is murderbone and meaninglessly murdering people without at least some reasoning. If you have some setup, then you should be fine. This means talking to people. The new rules even suggest someone who is nice to you is of equal target to someone who wasn't, so a knife twist betrayal is on the table as well. You can do a lot with that, and the groundwork is there for roleplay.

The issue of course is what is put before the player first. Since tots are our most common antag, most of them get met with progtot's mechanics and instructions to complete those side objectives, and they believe this is what they're supposed to be doing. Working towards their final objective. This definitely is a way to close the loop of their role succinctly, but it's also going to be repeated at least 4 or 5 times across every round. It is certain they can do this, the rules say they can, but there is no variety and it ultimately pushes players into a hyper-focus mechanical loop over a roleplay loop. Many of these people can be just following their role and never use the talk key once in the entire round, and not break a single rule.

On top of that, conflict doesn't arise from this naturally. It's entirely an ooc timer towards their final objective. Same with heretics in this regard. So, we've got a mechanical push to maintain mechanics, since that is the most obvious thing the game points the player towards, and a ruleset that guarantees that you can do this and be safe so long as you maintain that as the reasoning and that your actions are constructive towards that goal.

Outside of this, it is muddier, more uncertain, and has less direction. Players don't have the strongest grasp of mechanics, experience, interaction or creativity in equal measure, and so these players may often rely on tried and true. Since everything wants them to maintain a mechanical loop, that is what they'll learn and fall back on. Since it is repeated across all the players who might come here, and likely what our player churn will interact with, this is basically the expected experience. (maybe this is in part why thieves broke down. Players prefer certainty over vagueness. Hence why the progression of thieves policy was lenient escalation before degrading into basically no escalation options before it was removed. People were often confused, and no policy makers were open to figuring out exactly how this non-antag antag was meant to be behaving.)

Thankfully, it's not all dire, people still get creative despite this. But you'll notice this the most if you play sec on Manuel for long enough. It's very formulaic. Worse, it rewards noninteractivity and is just an alternative route to the murderbone speedruns of old.

[Timberpoes]

Don't confuse the rules for the enforcement.

I mainly did the murderbone rule rewrite portion to limit what I considered bullshit admin enforcement of the existing rules.

The old murderbone rules basically allowed the same stuff the current ones do. But entrenched MRP admin team enforcement culture instead turned antags into objective bots. We have murderbone bans on the system for 1 kill.

Murderbone is gone. The word is poison on MRP. MRP admins lost sight of the purpose of the murderbone rules. In come restricted antagonists to replace them.

With new rules I expect new enforcement more in line with what the original rules intended.

And now antag objectives are finally suggestions because the ability for antags to kill outside of their objectives is fully codified in the rules - it just requires a bit of RP brain.

Requiring RP brain is a damn good outcome for an increased RP server.

[iwishforducks]

my main issue with the new rules is “you are required to have a reason for every kill”- and i know the intent of that rule. it’s incredibly easy to come up with a reasoning. but, what if i slip up? what if i forget the reasoning? what if i find the reasoning personally embarrassing (i dont fuckin know) and fuck up when an admin asks me why i killed [x]. the rules certainly give a lot of leeway but it’s still vague and some admins methinks will have different interpretations on what’s valid IC reasoning. am i banned?

i think we should just let antags kill in small doses with zero worry. it’s exhausting to come up with a reasoning for everything you do. you know why i do 90% of the things i do? because it feels right. and really? that’s what playing a character is about. i reserve my thinking and rationale for more important things, if you will.

[iwishforducks]

i like that you’re allowed to mass sabotage if you feel like it tho. hope i see more plasma floods

[Misdoubtful]

I for one am anticipating policy threads about this that I'll get to deal with.

There is a general understanding that these new rules aren't perfect, it would be on the burner for far too long trying to get there and still not get there without people playing the game questioning things.

[Armhulen]

However, i think they are overly vauge

Frankly I like the vagueness of it all. Means following the spirit is in more focus than following the word

[TheLoLSwat]

what if i find the reasoning personally embarrassing

"why did you kill Patrick paramedic?"
"too embarrased to say uwu <333"

manuel

[wesoda25]

I'm cautiously optimistic about the changes. I look forward to seeing more plasma floods and bombings. Hopefully, it isn't just constant "I waited for my target to go into medbay then bombed medbay to kill as many people as possible" every round though. That was my experience on goon and it kinda turned me off of SS13 for a bit because it would happen almost every round.

Rule 5 precedent 3 covers and rule 10 cover this I think.

Well done to headmins. Interesting rewrite that really allows RP to flourish and enables admins to stomp out the stuff that hurts the server in the long run. Makes me excited to play on Manuel and even interested in trying adminning again, should I get more acclimated to the culture.

[iwishforducks]

what if i find the reasoning personally embarrassing

"why did you kill Patrick paramedic?"
"too embarrased to say uwu <333"

manuel

i dont know maybe my grandma died to ligma and someone made a ligma joke and i kill them over it

[Armhulen]

what if i find the reasoning personally embarrassing

"why did you kill Patrick paramedic?"
"too embarrased to say uwu <333"

manuel

i dont know maybe my grandma died to ligma and someone made a ligma joke and i kill them over it

Do you think you should get banned for that?

[iwishforducks]

what if i find the reasoning personally embarrassing

"why did you kill Patrick paramedic?"
"too embarrased to say uwu <333"

manuel

i dont know maybe my grandma died to ligma and someone made a ligma joke and i kill them over it

Do you think you should get banned for that?

ligma balls

serious answer: i think it should be fine to kill like a few people for absolutely no reason at all. just committing small acts of murder and not systematic station genocide. i think it breeds goodness for the round for people to die (gives medical something to do, security, detective, paranoia, etc.)

[Armhulen]

what if i find the reasoning personally embarrassing

"why did you kill Patrick paramedic?"
"too embarrased to say uwu <333"

manuel

i dont know maybe my grandma died to ligma and someone made a ligma joke and i kill them over it

Do you think you should get banned for that?

ligma balls

serious answer: i think it should be fine to kill like a few people for absolutely no reason at all. just committing small acts of murder and not systematic station genocide. i think it breeds goodness for the round for people to die (gives medical something to do, security, detective, paranoia, etc.)

Youtuber debate format: Thinning out the station a little should be a valid excuse for a few people, especially if they work close to any of your objectives in some way

[NecromancerAnne]

I don't know if it will stop the cavalcade of angry players at times. I had a lovely round where I saw deadchat frothing over a tot having killed one person in self defense and another using the syndicate pod used to send him to the ninja dojo.

[Itseasytosee2me]

Not being able to commit random acts of violence when the opportunity erupts is a real drag. Had a recent traitor CMO round, and when you get a guy under the knife its just all to easy to yank out the heart, watch em struggle and toss the body in the morgue, or shoot a syringe gun full of lexorin into a random passer by as the shuttle arrives before running off. Or placing an X4 charge at the opposite side of the wall you know doctors are preforming surgery right on the other side of, or choral hydrating some dude whos right next to an airlock and then tossing them out. Sometimes the opportunity to preform a random act of violence is too good and I would hate to give that up.

[Bawhoppennn]

This is a lot better.

One issue I still have is regarding punishment severity. These rules don't specifically clarify on Enemy of the Corporation. Previously, Enemy of the Corporation gradually became less meaningful, and it actually became against the rules at one stage to permabrig someone just for being a confirmed traitor who did nothing else, let alone execute. Now of course security players should be able to choose lesser punishments (though that's a weird choice), but it seems absolutely 100% fundamental to the setting that someone who is literally an enemy agent aboard the station and is confirmed to be said hostile party, needs to be able to be locked up. This is the RP server, and that is like the most basic thing ever. Personally I think instant execution is warranted like previous times (even if that's unpopular), but atleast permaing must be an option... making it so you have to let an enemy espionage operative go back onto your station? That's craziness. Hopefully under these rules that will be explicitly allowed. (FYI, if a person cannot be confirmed a traitor, then I think the rules relating to crimes committed are fine... in other words, LOCK YOUR UPLINK)

i think we should just let antags kill in small doses with zero worry. it’s exhausting to come up with a reasoning for everything you do. you know why i do 90% of the things i do? because it feels right. and really? that’s what playing a character is about. i reserve my thinking and rationale for more important things, if you will.

Youtuber debate format: Thinning out the station a little should be a valid excuse for a few people, especially if they work close to any of your objectives in some way

Not being able to commit random acts of violence when the opportunity erupts is a real drag. Had a recent traitor CMO round, and when you get a guy under the knife its just all to easy to yank out the heart, watch em struggle and toss the body in the morgue, or shoot a syringe gun full of lexorin into a random passer by as the shuttle arrives before running off. Or placing an X4 charge at the opposite side of the wall you know doctors are preforming surgery right on the other side of, or choral hydrating some dude whos right next to an airlock and then tossing them out. Sometimes the opportunity to preform a random act of violence is too good and I would hate to give that up.

IMO, I think the way this should be handled is that every traitor gets 3 free kills. No questions asked. And then every kill after that needs to be justified.

This allows for creativity and emergent moments, strong conflict, while still avoiding random endless slaughters.

Don't confuse the rules for the enforcement.

I mainly did the murderbone rule rewrite portion to limit what I considered bullshit admin enforcement of the existing rules.

The old murderbone rules basically allowed the same stuff the current ones do. But entrenched MRP admin team enforcement culture instead turned antags into objective bots. We have murderbone bans on the system for 1 kill.

Murderbone is gone. The word is poison on MRP. MRP admins lost sight of the purpose of the murderbone rules. In come restricted antagonists to replace them.

With new rules I expect new enforcement more in line with what the original rules intended.

And now antag objectives are finally suggestions because the ability for antags to kill outside of their objectives is fully codified in the rules - it just requires a bit of RP brain.

Requiring RP brain is a damn good outcome for an increased RP server.

You are so based

[stewydeadmike]

I'm cautiously optimistic. I think the new rules are an improvement definitely but my main concern is how much of an actual effect this will have with a culture that has such strong attitudes against any kind of killing seen as unjustified. You may not get yelled at by admins for plasma flooding anymore but you could still get yelled at by your fellow players which can have the same sort of chilling effect. Maybe these attitudes will change with time but I imagine there's gonna be a fair bit of friction until then.

[Super Aggro Crag]

"stay in your lane" is going to empower stupid useless fuckwits who don't do their job to take job slots and then scream and cry when you try to do it for them because they're too busy blowing up the chem lab making meth or building an autism form while the station runs out of power because they didn't set up the SM.

[Misdoubtful]

"stay in your lane" is going to empower stupid useless fuckwits who don't do their job to take job slots and then scream and cry when you try to do it for them because they're too busy blowing up the chem lab making meth or building an autism form while the station runs out of power because they didn't set up the SM.

If they are doing something like this and not doing what people are asking them, its not like people can do nothing but sit on their hands.

It just gives people the interaction opportunity of reasonably requesting. After those requests though?

Also to everyone in general: stop caring if other people get mad. You aren't going to get banned because you made someone upset Jesus Christ. Hugboxers btfo.

[Super Aggro Crag]

"stay in your lane" is going to empower stupid useless fuckwits who don't do their job to take job slots and then scream and cry when you try to do it for them because they're too busy blowing up the chem lab making meth or building an autism form while the station runs out of power because they didn't set up the SM.

If they are doing something like this and not doing what people are asking them, its not like people can do nothing but sit on their hands.

It just gives people the interaction opportunity of reasonably requesting. After those requests though?

Also to everyone in general: stop caring if other people get mad. You aren't going to get banned because you made someone upset Jesus Christ. Hugboxers btfo.

when i tried to do this i got banned for 3 days. stop being disingenous.

[Misdoubtful]

"stay in your lane" is going to empower stupid useless fuckwits who don't do their job to take job slots and then scream and cry when you try to do it for them because they're too busy blowing up the chem lab making meth or building an autism form while the station runs out of power because they didn't set up the SM.

If they are doing something like this and not doing what people are asking them, its not like people can do nothing but sit on their hands.

It just gives people the interaction opportunity of reasonably requesting. After those requests though?

Also to everyone in general: stop caring if other people get mad. You aren't going to get banned because you made someone upset Jesus Christ. Hugboxers btfo.

when i tried to do this i got banned for 3 days. stop being disingenous.

Then there has to be more to this story.

[Super Aggro Crag]

"stay in your lane" is going to empower stupid useless fuckwits who don't do their job to take job slots and then scream and cry when you try to do it for them because they're too busy blowing up the chem lab making meth or building an autism form while the station runs out of power because they didn't set up the SM.

If they are doing something like this and not doing what people are asking them, its not like people can do nothing but sit on their hands.

It just gives people the interaction opportunity of reasonably requesting. After those requests though?

Also to everyone in general: stop caring if other people get mad. You aren't going to get banned because you made someone upset Jesus Christ. Hugboxers btfo.

when i tried to do this i got banned for 3 days. stop being disingenous.

Then there has to be more to this story.

i asked a guy if he could make me a glass of lye he said FUCK OFF CUNT. When he left his department i walked in to make a glass of lye and he called me a FUCKING CUNT FUCK YOU CUNT DIE and tried to set me on fire and burn me to death with acid. So I called him an aspie and got banned for 3 days.

[iwishforducks]

"stay in your lane" is going to empower stupid useless fuckwits who don't do their job to take job slots and then scream and cry when you try to do it for them because they're too busy blowing up the chem lab making meth or building an autism form while the station runs out of power because they didn't set up the SM.

stay in your lane is just a dumb rule over all i dont like it in any capacity

[Misdoubtful]

"stay in your lane" is going to empower stupid useless fuckwits who don't do their job to take job slots and then scream and cry when you try to do it for them because they're too busy blowing up the chem lab making meth or building an autism form while the station runs out of power because they didn't set up the SM.

If they are doing something like this and not doing what people are asking them, its not like people can do nothing but sit on their hands.

It just gives people the interaction opportunity of reasonably requesting. After those requests though?

Also to everyone in general: stop caring if other people get mad. You aren't going to get banned because you made someone upset Jesus Christ. Hugboxers btfo.

when i tried to do this i got banned for 3 days. stop being disingenous.

Then there has to be more to this story.

i asked a guy if he could make me a glass of lye he said FUCK OFF CUNT. When he left his department i walked in to make a glass of lye and he called me a FUCKING CUNT FUCK YOU CUNT DIE and tried to set me on fire and burn me to death with acid. So I called him an aspie and got banned for 3 days.

viewtopic.php?p=651942#p651942

You were banned for a rule 11 issue though, not a stay in your lane issue. I thought I remembered what you were talking about.

There was in fact much much more to this story.

[wesoda25]

Yeesh crag just got owned

[Super Aggro Crag]

"stay in your lane" is going to empower stupid useless fuckwits who don't do their job to take job slots and then scream and cry when you try to do it for them because they're too busy blowing up the chem lab making meth or building an autism form while the station runs out of power because they didn't set up the SM.

If they are doing something like this and not doing what people are asking them, its not like people can do nothing but sit on their hands.

It just gives people the interaction opportunity of reasonably requesting. After those requests though?

Also to everyone in general: stop caring if other people get mad. You aren't going to get banned because you made someone upset Jesus Christ. Hugboxers btfo.

when i tried to do this i got banned for 3 days. stop being disingenous.

Then there has to be more to this story.

i asked a guy if he could make me a glass of lye he said FUCK OFF CUNT. When he left his department i walked in to make a glass of lye and he called me a FUCKING CUNT FUCK YOU CUNT DIE and tried to set me on fire and burn me to death with acid. So I called him an aspie and got banned for 3 days.

viewtopic.php?p=651942#p651942

You were banned for a rule 11 issue though, not a stay in your lane issue. I thought I remembered what you were talking about.

There was in fact much much more to this story.

yeah because him acting like an absolute cockhead and breaking rule 1 by being a dickhole is now actually super cool and good and you can get banned for not liking it, under the new rules you champion. i can't wait for power to not come on for 45 minutes every shift because the engineers are jerking themselves off instead of setting up the engine and then get told it's valid when i get murdered for asking for engineering access to try and set it up

[BrolyButterfingers]

Absolutely loving the rework so far. I'm seeing interesting playstyles and equipment that I deadass have NEVER seen on Manuel before. I saw hellburn grenades for the first time in a few hundred hours. I freon-flooded the station. Antags are being really creative and it almost feels like a renaissance. I finally have stuff to do as an atmos main who lives for damage control.

[RedBaronFlyer]

Such reasons may include escalating against people who are excessively polite or helpful as well as being mean or rude, escalating against groups of people who exclude them or escalating against people who ignore or avoid attempts to communicate entirely.

Okay, I'm kind of dumb, but I'm a bit confused by the "Such reasons may include escalating against people who are excessively polite or helpful as well as being mean or rude" part. Is this so that people don't go, "wtf I was nice why kill?"

It kind of feels a bit like doublespeak. You can kill, but you need a reason per escalation guidelines, the reason can be if the person was nice, wasn't nice, seemed cliquey, or weren't responding to you. It's kind of the same issue I have with the sabotage rule.

Mass station sabotage that is likely to kill people is allowed so long as the antagonist does not take any direct and specific personal actions to maximise the bodycount beyond what the sabotage itself causes. Examples of mass station sabotage include plasma flooding, causing a supermatter delamination and spacing the station.

You can't go out of your way to mass maim or indiscriminately kill the crew after the fact, but you can do mass sabotage (such as spacing the station or plasma fires) which some types of sabotage will inherently get a fairly big body count depending. Is this meaning, "Hey, don't go from maint tunnel to maint tunnel gunning people down indiscriminately after you spaced/bombed/plasma-flooded?"

I haven't seen this in action so I have no idea how it's playing out. I figure it's fine, and I'm just reading a bit too much into it.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Such reasons may include escalating against people who are excessively polite or helpful as well as being mean or rude, escalating against groups of people who exclude them or escalating against people who ignore or avoid attempts to communicate entirely.

Okay, I'm kind of dumb, but I'm a bit confused by the "Such reasons may include escalating against people who are excessively polite or helpful as well as being mean or rude" part. Is this so that people don't go, "wtf I was nice why kill?"

It kind of feels a bit like doublespeak. You can kill, but you need a reason per escalation guidelines, the reason can be if the person was nice, wasn't nice, seemed cliquey, or weren't responding to you. It's kind of the same issue I have with the sabotage rule.

That's the point. You just need to have a reason. As long as you can say "I did it because (XYZ)" and that "XYZ" isn't "Because I wanted to" you're fine.

Mass station sabotage that is likely to kill people is allowed so long as the antagonist does not take any direct and specific personal actions to maximise the bodycount beyond what the sabotage itself causes. Examples of mass station sabotage include plasma flooding, causing a supermatter delamination and spacing the station.

You can't go out of your way to mass maim or indiscriminately kill the crew after the fact, but you can do mass sabotage (such as spacing the station or plasma fires) which some types of sabotage will inherently get a fairly big body count depending. Is this meaning, "Hey, don't go from maint tunnel to maint tunnel gunning people down indiscriminately after you spaced/bombed/plasma-flooded?"

I haven't seen this in action so I have no idea how it's playing out. I figure it's fine, and I'm just reading a bit too much into it.

So, if you set off a singulo? That's great. If you stun baton people and throw them into it, that's not so great.

[Armhulen]

snip

viewtopic.php?p=651942#p651942

You were banned for a rule 11 issue though, not a stay in your lane issue. I thought I remembered what you were talking about.

There was in fact much much more to this story.

yeah because him acting like an absolute cockhead and breaking rule 1 by being a dickhole is now actually super cool and good and you can get banned for not liking it, under the new rules you champion. i can't wait for power to not come on for 45 minutes every shift because the engineers are jerking themselves off instead of setting up the engine and then get told it's valid when i get murdered for asking for engineering access to try and set it up

While *in my opinion* we are a little over-harsh on some insults, if you ahelped that he was acting like someone with aspergers oocly instead of calling him an aspie icly you would have probably gotten him banned

[Super Aggro Crag]

snip

viewtopic.php?p=651942#p651942

You were banned for a rule 11 issue though, not a stay in your lane issue. I thought I remembered what you were talking about.

There was in fact much much more to this story.

yeah because him acting like an absolute cockhead and breaking rule 1 by being a dickhole is now actually super cool and good and you can get banned for not liking it, under the new rules you champion. i can't wait for power to not come on for 45 minutes every shift because the engineers are jerking themselves off instead of setting up the engine and then get told it's valid when i get murdered for asking for engineering access to try and set it up

While *in my opinion* we are a little over-harsh on some insults, if you ahelped that he was acting like someone with aspergers oocly instead of calling him an aspie icly you would have probably gotten him banned

ok