Im sad dungeon and dragon is removing half orc and half elf

[Super Aggro Crag]

I liked playing as those types of heroes and now they are going to be illegal...

[Not-Dorsidarf]

are you sure theyre really removing them and not just cutting them to sell to you in a splat

[SkeletalElite]

Couldn't you just play them anyways?

What are they gonna do? Break in your house and cut the pages from your handbook?

[Super Aggro Crag]

Couldn't you just play them anyways?

What are they gonna do? Break in your house and cut the pages from your handbook?

People will kick you from the game if you try using "unofficial content" like old rules

[conrad]

What? Sauce?

[Armhulen]

Couldn't you just play them anyways?

What are they gonna do? Break in your house and cut the pages from your handbook?

People will kick you from the game if you try using "unofficial content" like old rules

Seriously what kind of "people" are you playing with because they sound subhuman

[rasonj]

Couldn't you just play them anyways?

What are they gonna do? Break in your house and cut the pages from your handbook?

People will kick you from the game if you try using "unofficial content" like old rules

If people kick you from the dnd group for wanting to use unofficial content, either they were already looking for a reason to boot you, or you were unable to have a conversation and compromise like an adult.

[Super Aggro Crag]

Couldn't you just play them anyways?

What are they gonna do? Break in your house and cut the pages from your handbook?

People will kick you from the game if you try using "unofficial content" like old rules

Seriously what kind of "people" are you playing with because they sound subhuman

Wotc is trying to dominate all VTTs and screw over other ones like foundry and roll20 and if they say theyre unofficials then theyre going to get their shilldms to kick people lest they lose their account for violating the NuOGL

[vect0r]

Just play 3.5, the better version.

[Armhulen]

Couldn't you just play them anyways?

What are they gonna do? Break in your house and cut the pages from your handbook?

People will kick you from the game if you try using "unofficial content" like old rules

Seriously what kind of "people" are you playing with because they sound subhuman

if they say theyre unofficials then theyre going to get their shilldms to kick people

Why are you playing with shilldms!?! Only dm i've ever dnd'd with both homebrewed the campaign and was an absolute chiller

[Armhulen]

Also you really should have linked this, this is what the thread is about

https://boundingintocomics.com/2023/04/ ... ly-racist/

Dumb decision, this is the same tier as people saying evil races in fantasy settings are racist.

[vect0r]

IMO as somebody who this change is trying to appeal to, this is stupid.

[Armhulen]

yeah bro half races had such a gross and racist portrayal



...as community leaders and adventurers

[Super Aggro Crag]

tell me wizards of the coast if half elves and half orcs are so bad then why is there so much art of them that i have jacked off to?

[BeeSting12]

I'm confused as to how it's racist.

[Armhulen]

I'm confused as to how it's racist.

This (very racist) video is a brain parasite that makes people have completely braindead takes about fantasy races. I'm not saying it caused this, but it's the exact same thought where people try to equate fantasy races to real life races and then get offended. Same ideology being applied here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymUEPKTEQaQ

[oranges]

sounds like you need a better dm

[Cheshify]

You should try some new TTRPGs, there are a lot out there!

[Arcanemusic]

Just play a variant human and say you're a half elf/orc, with the feat and bonus skills you can still play a decently good pc, but I agree you miss out on the unique identity.

Alternatively, just do the opposite and play the full race and say you're a halfbreed.

[iamgoofball]

Also you really should have linked this, this is what the thread is about

https://boundingintocomics.com/2023/04/ ... ly-racist/

Dumb decision, this is the same tier as people saying evil races in fantasy settings are racist.

im not sure if you're aware but gygax was a very, very racist old man

like im talking lovecraft level racist

[Super Aggro Crag]

Also you really should have linked this, this is what the thread is about

https://boundingintocomics.com/2023/04/ ... ly-racist/

Dumb decision, this is the same tier as people saying evil races in fantasy settings are racist.

im not sure if you're aware but gygax was a very, very racist old man

like im talking lovecraft level racist

you can't be racist against the welsh and italians, goofball

[Armhulen]

Also you really should have linked this, this is what the thread is about

https://boundingintocomics.com/2023/04/ ... ly-racist/

Dumb decision, this is the same tier as people saying evil races in fantasy settings are racist.

im not sure if you're aware but gygax was a very, very racist old man

like im talking lovecraft level racist

I fully belieb it but I don't think half-races in fantasy settings are racist

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Just play 3.5, the better version.

Just play Pathfinder, the better 3.5 (3.5 is better than 5e though)

I'm confused as to how it's racist.

This (very racist) video is a brain parasite that makes people have completely braindead takes about fantasy races. I'm not saying it caused this, but it's the exact same thought where people try to equate fantasy races to real life races and then get offended. Same ideology being applied here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymUEPKTEQaQ

I've always laughed at those types. "This is a tribalistic race of warriors, who raid and pillage anything and everything they can get their hands on. Their skin tones vary, but are rarely the same as a human's, and they have tusks in their mouth. They are usually extremely strong, and wield two-handed weapons, though some are known to prefer dual wielding axes. An unfortunate habit is that they have a tendency to go into a berserker rage." "Dude wtf why are orcs just black people." how racist do people have to be to make that comparison?

[Armhulen]

I dunno, CMDR, but they must not have any fun playing Stellaris

[Super Aggro Crag]

Just play 3.5, the better version.

Just play Pathfinder, the better 3.5 (3.5 is better than 5e though)

I'm confused as to how it's racist.

This (very racist) video is a brain parasite that makes people have completely braindead takes about fantasy races. I'm not saying it caused this, but it's the exact same thought where people try to equate fantasy races to real life races and then get offended. Same ideology being applied here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymUEPKTEQaQ

I've always laughed at those types. "This is a tribalistic race of warriors, who raid and pillage anything and everything they can get their hands on. Their skin tones vary, but are rarely the same as a human's, and they have tusks in their mouth. They are usually extremely strong, and wield two-handed weapons, though some are known to prefer dual wielding axes. An unfortunate habit is that they have a tendency to go into a berserker rage." "Dude wtf why are orcs just black people." how racist do people have to be to make that comparison?

i want to play pathfinder 1e but people only want to play 2e

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Just play 3.5, the better version.

Just play Pathfinder, the better 3.5 (3.5 is better than 5e though)

I'm confused as to how it's racist.

This (very racist) video is a brain parasite that makes people have completely braindead takes about fantasy races. I'm not saying it caused this, but it's the exact same thought where people try to equate fantasy races to real life races and then get offended. Same ideology being applied here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymUEPKTEQaQ

I've always laughed at those types. "This is a tribalistic race of warriors, who raid and pillage anything and everything they can get their hands on. Their skin tones vary, but are rarely the same as a human's, and they have tusks in their mouth. They are usually extremely strong, and wield two-handed weapons, though some are known to prefer dual wielding axes. An unfortunate habit is that they have a tendency to go into a berserker rage." "Dude wtf why are orcs just black people." how racist do people have to be to make that comparison?

i want to play pathfinder 1e but people only want to play 2e

Pathfinder 1e is the best version. I want to play it again but all of my friends who I could join prefer doing voice-based roleplay and I get uncomfy about that, I prefer text-based RP and voice-based chatter-and-strategizing.

[Super Aggro Crag]

Just play 3.5, the better version.

Just play Pathfinder, the better 3.5 (3.5 is better than 5e though)

I'm confused as to how it's racist.

This (very racist) video is a brain parasite that makes people have completely braindead takes about fantasy races. I'm not saying it caused this, but it's the exact same thought where people try to equate fantasy races to real life races and then get offended. Same ideology being applied here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymUEPKTEQaQ

I've always laughed at those types. "This is a tribalistic race of warriors, who raid and pillage anything and everything they can get their hands on. Their skin tones vary, but are rarely the same as a human's, and they have tusks in their mouth. They are usually extremely strong, and wield two-handed weapons, though some are known to prefer dual wielding axes. An unfortunate habit is that they have a tendency to go into a berserker rage." "Dude wtf why are orcs just black people." how racist do people have to be to make that comparison?

i want to play pathfinder 1e but people only want to play 2e

Pathfinder 1e is the best version. I want to play it again but all of my friends who I could join prefer doing voice-based roleplay and I get uncomfy about that, I prefer text-based RP and voice-based chatter-and-strategizing.

i cant do voice based roleplay because i have a very thick accent

[Vekter]

Couldn't you just play them anyways?

What are they gonna do? Break in your house and cut the pages from your handbook?

People will kick you from the game if you try using "unofficial content" like old rules

This only really happens in official content (like Adventurer's Guild). Any group that's going to boot you for wanting to play something that used to be in the game and was removed (for a frankly silly reason) is probably not one you want to play with anyway.

E: Actually someone on >digg explained it and this makes more sense.

Because there are playable Elf and Orc ancestries, as well as a bunch of other ones these two could have mingled with - if you had a specific "Half"-Orc, why are those

* the only "Half" ones, where are Half-Goblins, Half-Dragonborn, etc?

* reduced to only one parent, what do Elves + Orcs get as their offspring?

* why are somewhat distinct from their named parent, not sharing any key feature with them ... as well as no other possible parent lineage, creating something entirely new?

Pair that with an inherent racist note of only accounting to be something "half" instead of being something complete and you have a proper reasoning for going away from this.

Current playtest just has you keep mechanics from one parent and mixes in visuals from both. Other systems are playtesting the split approach of ancestry AND culture, for someone with the body of an orc taught in the elven ways (as part of shared custody perhaps).

Doesn't seem like a huge loss, tbh. You can just say you're an orc or elf and specify that one of your parents was a human if you want, aka "what we've been doing for mixed heritage characters of other races for ages".

[NoxVS]

You should try some new TTRPGs, there are a lot out there!

I’ve got the hottest take that most of the vast variety of TTRPGs out there are bad. That’s why everyone plays DND and tries to cram new systems into it - Because the alternatives are often unpolished and unfun

[CMDR_Gungnir]

E: Actually someone on >digg explained it and this makes more sense.

Because there are playable Elf and Orc ancestries, as well as a bunch of other ones these two could have mingled with - if you had a specific "Half"-Orc, why are those

* the only "Half" ones, where are Half-Goblins, Half-Dragonborn, etc?

* reduced to only one parent, what do Elves + Orcs get as their offspring?

* why are somewhat distinct from their named parent, not sharing any key feature with them ... as well as no other possible parent lineage, creating something entirely new?

Pair that with an inherent racist note of only accounting to be something "half" instead of being something complete and you have a proper reasoning for going away from this.

Current playtest just has you keep mechanics from one parent and mixes in visuals from both. Other systems are playtesting the split approach of ancestry AND culture, for someone with the body of an orc taught in the elven ways (as part of shared custody perhaps).

Doesn't seem like a huge loss, tbh. You can just say you're an orc or elf and specify that one of your parents was a human if you want, aka "what we've been doing for mixed heritage characters of other races for ages".

Yeah but Wizards themselves said they're deeply uncomfortable with such a "racist" depiction of something which none of those are except for one point (which is arguably based on a false premise anyway).

[Cheshify]

You should try some new TTRPGs, there are a lot out there!

I’ve got the hottest take that most of the vast variety of TTRPGs out there are bad. That’s why everyone plays DND and tries to cram new systems into it - Because the alternatives are often unpolished and unfun

I have been converted by pathfinder2e. A lot of TTRPGs aren't great but many fill better niches than DnD's "kinda mid at everything".

[Vekter]

Yeah but Wizards themselves said they're deeply uncomfortable with such a "racist" depiction of something which none of those are except for one point (which is arguably based on a false premise anyway).

Eh, whatever. I don't see it as a huge loss anyway - there's a ton of much more creative races to pick from than them and, as I said, if you really want to keep playing it, you can. I'm well aware that Wizards isn't doing this out of the ~goodness of their heart~ or any stupid shit, they're doing it for optics, but it's not a huge change and I don't think it'll impact most players.

As for the "orcs are racist" thing... I can see it. It relies on some bad stereotypes of both black and indigenous people and, even if it's just a fantasy race, they can do better than that. I feel like the idea that "if you see them like that, you're the racist actually" is bullshit because these are commonly held stereotypes of multiple different races, people don't magically just only know about them if they're racist.

E: Also as for other systems, Pathfinder is neat. I haven't played 2E but it's apparently quite good. GURPS is also worth a look, tends to work very well in many different situations.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Yeah but Wizards themselves said they're deeply uncomfortable with such a "racist" depiction of something which none of those are except for one point (which is arguably based on a false premise anyway).

Eh, whatever. I don't see it as a huge loss anyway - there's a ton of much more creative races to pick from than them and, as I said, if you really want to keep playing it, you can. I'm well aware that Wizards isn't doing this out of the ~goodness of their heart~ or any stupid shit, they're doing it for optics, but it's not a huge change and I don't think it'll impact most players.

As for the "orcs are racist" thing... I can see it. It relies on some bad stereotypes of both black and indigenous people and, even if it's just a fantasy race, they can do better than that. I feel like the idea that "if you see them like that, you're the racist actually" is bullshit because these are commonly held stereotypes of multiple different races, people don't magically just only know about them if they're racist.

It's not a particularly huge loss, I just don't like the fact they aren't honest about it. Because either they're lying, which is bad, or they genuinely believe it, at which point what decidedly deranged thing are they going to do next?

On the Orc thing, sure. But they're not black or indigenous people. They're Orcs. "People used to hold the stereotypes that black people were savage tribals, that means that any fantasy race that is a savage tribal is a racist caricature of black people!" is utterly unhinged. You wouldn't look at the common depiction of Goblins or whatever as greedy bankers and go "That must be the Jews!" you call them out on that stereotype because they're also often innately visually coded as such (often with large noses, etc etc etc) that fits the stereotypes.

Orcs don't. The only real comparison to any stereotypes is the fact that they're (usually) a race of low-technology "savage" tribals. To flatly declare that as racist is to say that you can never have a race of outcasts who don't get to enjoy the fruits of society's advancements.

[Vekter]

It's not a particularly huge loss, I just don't like the fact they aren't honest about it. Because either they're lying, which is bad, or they genuinely believe it, at which point what decidedly deranged thing are they going to do next?

On the Orc thing, sure. But they're not black or indigenous people. They're Orcs. "People used to hold the stereotypes that black people were savage tribals, that means that any fantasy race that is a savage tribal is a racist caricature of black people!" is utterly unhinged. You wouldn't look at the common depiction of Goblins or whatever as greedy bankers and go "That must be the Jews!" you call them out on that stereotype because they're also often innately visually coded as such (often with large noses, etc etc etc) that fits the stereotypes.

Orcs don't. The only real comparison to any stereotypes is the fact that they're (usually) a race of low-technology "savage" tribals. To flatly declare that as racist is to say that you can never have a race of outcasts who don't get to enjoy the fruits of society's advancements.

Yeah, but there are ways to do something like Orcs without leaning into things like "they naturally tend towards being violent" and "they're mostly an undeveloped race that's more about brawn than brains". For all of its faults, WoW has done a good job of pulling back from a lot of those tropes, or at least finding something else to blame them on than it being their nature.

It's also not just that they're "low technology savage tribals", it's that they are also specified to be less intelligent than other races and have a pre-disposition to violence, both of which are racist tropes commonly ascribed to black people. It's like how, by itself, having goblins in the funny meme wizard game isn't anti-Semitic, but making a plot point where they kidnap children from their beds at night and then explicitly putting things in that refer to a "goblin rebellion" that's patterned after an actual Jewish rebellion, then you're just making really short Jews.

If you can take your fantasy race and replace all references to "orcs" with "black people" and it sounds like some 1890s KKK propaganda, then you haven't made orcs. You've made a caricature of black people. You can call it whatever you want, but that's still what it is. Am I saying that's what Wizards did? No, I think there's a lot more nuance to it than that, but it's silly to say that "if you're the one seeing those things and thinking of black people, you're the racist, not them".

E: I'm interested to hear if anyone biracial was concerned about this because it definitely smells more like ID Pol "doing a Blizzard" bullshit than anything.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Yeah, but there are ways to do something like Orcs without leaning into things like "they naturally tend towards being violent" and "they're mostly an undeveloped race that's more about brawn than brains". For all of its faults, WoW has done a good job of pulling back from a lot of those tropes, or at least finding something else to blame them on than it being their nature.

People like to put the cart before the horse in these discussions. "Yes, but they're not black people, they're orcs." I get that, but that doesn't mean they must lean into those tropes. It's their system, they can do literally anything they want with it.

Well it's not their nature any more than it is WoW's orcs. WoW's orcs have it to blame on the Fel Corruption. D&D's orcs were created by an Evil-aligned god of war. And I think it's good to keep that.

People can always play one who doesn't apply. Perhaps they're strong enough to resist the influence. Perhaps the influence is weaker on them. Perhaps their personal character story in the campaign is about their struggle against that influence as they seek to be better.

[NoxVS]

You should try some new TTRPGs, there are a lot out there!

I’ve got the hottest take that most of the vast variety of TTRPGs out there are bad. That’s why everyone plays DND and tries to cram new systems into it - Because the alternatives are often unpolished and unfun

I have been converted by pathfinder2e. A lot of TTRPGs aren't great but many fill better niches than DnD's "kinda mid at everything".

I don't remember which edition of pathfinder I played, but I just hated the feat trees and stuff like that. When I am making a level 1 character I do not want to also have to make a level 2, level 3, level 4, level 5, level 6, level 7 - so on and so forth. Especially without respecing. Also this is more nitpicky but I absolutely hate the whole vancian magic system thing I hate it

[Super Aggro Crag]

Whenever people say "damn! Orcs is racist cuz they be black people!" It makes me go "lol" cuz they're based off G*rmans

Furthermore i find the idea that people think being multiethnic means theyre inherently lesser fucking stupid and a result of the globalist homogenization movement's efforts to state that "de wypeepou have no culturino". If you ask a guy with an Italian dad and a Norwegian mom about his cultural ancestry he wouldn't say "well i can only eat half of a spaghetti because of my inherent inferiority".

[Omega_DarkPotato]

You should try some new TTRPGs, there are a lot out there!

I’ve got the hottest take that most of the vast variety of TTRPGs out there are bad. That’s why everyone plays DND and tries to cram new systems into it - Because the alternatives are often unpolished and unfun

have you tried LANCER its this cool TTRPG about mech combat in space (no it's not starsector)
the core rulebook is free, and there's also a web service called compcon that acts as a reference sheet, miniature rulebook, and player sheet generator/manager/helps you build mechs/pilots/etc. There's additional services for GMs, allowing you to make NPCs, encounters, and modify campaigns - plus compcon links into stuff like Foundry for easy integration.

The game's fairly simple but incredibly well-done at the same time, with combat rules that are enjoyable and deep without being tedious/arbitrarily complex.

[Tegun]

im not sure if you're aware but gygax was a very, very racist old man

like im talking lovecraft level racist

We LOVE the AD&D official harlot table. 70s-80s seem very weird from today's perspective.

Yeah, but there are ways to do something like Orcs without leaning into things like "they naturally tend towards being violent" and "they're mostly an undeveloped race that's more about brawn than brains". For all of its faults, WoW has done a good job of pulling back from a lot of those tropes, or at least finding something else to blame them on than it being their nature.

It's also not just that they're "low technology savage tribals", it's that they are also specified to be less intelligent than other races and have a pre-disposition to violence, both of which are racist tropes commonly ascribed to black people. It's like how, by itself, having goblins in the funny meme wizard game isn't anti-Semitic, but making a plot point where they kidnap children from their beds at night and then explicitly putting things in that refer to a "goblin rebellion" that's patterned after an actual Jewish rebellion, then you're just making really short Jews.

If you can take your fantasy race and replace all references to "orcs" with "black people" and it sounds like some 1890s KKK propaganda, then you haven't made orcs. You've made a caricature of black people. You can call it whatever you want, but that's still what it is. Am I saying that's what Wizards did? No, I think there's a lot more nuance to it than that, but it's silly to say that "if you're the one seeing those things and thinking of black people, you're the racist, not them".

E: I'm interested to hear if anyone biracial was concerned about this because it definitely smells more like ID Pol "doing a Blizzard" bullshit than anything.

Always been surprised how there hasn't been more of a shitstorm about how most WoW races are in the end just some caricatures of real world peoples as fantasy races, like the tauren native american vibe or trolls with their accents and voodoo. Meanwhile FF14 just recently had that controversy regarding a traditional sami outfit being sold in the game's store.

[datorangebottle]

Wotc is trying to dominate all VTTs and screw over other ones like foundry and roll20 and if they say theyre unofficials then theyre going to get their shilldms to kick people lest they lose their account for violating the NuOGL

Thank god Pathfinder 2e exists and is way better than anything WOTC has put out in recent times.

[Super Aggro Crag]

i only like first edition pathfinder

[TheRex9001]

I'm confused as to how it's racist.

This (very racist) video is a brain parasite that makes people have completely braindead takes about fantasy races. I'm not saying it caused this, but it's the exact same thought where people try to equate fantasy races to real life races and then get offended. Same ideology being applied here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymUEPKTEQaQ

I hate this video so much because comparing black people to what they call an inherently evil race is pretty fucking racist. This video is also bad because the creator seems to think the imperium are the good guys in w40k (Their information comes soley from memes). The imperium are not the good guys but neither is anyone else. This video sucks and this post has more thought put into it than the entire video.

[Fikou]

It's also not just that they're "low technology savage tribals"

ok

it's that they are also specified to be less intelligent than other races

...cause they are low technology savages?

and have a pre-disposition to violence

...cause they are tribal savages?

theyre just big dumb green guys its not that complicated, how does it make the depiction racist?

[dirk_mcblade]

WOTC's IP is literally a PDF file and its only value is in artificial scarcity enforced at the end of a gun held by the government. They're an obsolete company so who cares what they think.

[Misdoubtful]

sounds like you need a better dm

This or find another ruleset to try there are tons.

BF has been gushing about: Blades In The Dark: Steampunk Heists so we'll probably be trying that soon.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Always been surprised how there hasn't been more of a shitstorm about how most WoW races are in the end just some caricatures of real world peoples as fantasy races, like the tauren native american vibe or trolls with their accents and voodoo. Meanwhile FF14 just recently had that controversy regarding a traditional sami outfit being sold in the game's store.

My favourite part is that it isn't even a traditional sami outfit, they just kinda claimed it is. Whole thing's already been debunked.

[Annihilite111]

I'm confused as to how it's racist.

This (very racist) video is a brain parasite that makes people have completely braindead takes about fantasy races. I'm not saying it caused this, but it's the exact same thought where people try to equate fantasy races to real life races and then get offended. Same ideology being applied here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymUEPKTEQaQ

I will never understand how these """people""" can't see that they're the ones projecting their biases onto fantasy races. Tolkien made Orcs as a metaphor for how he saw the Germans during the war, and being unable to imagine a race of brutish, violent savages without instantly thinking of black people says infinitely more about these people than the people who came up with it.

[Super Aggro Crag]

If u ask a klansman why they hate black people they arent going to say "they are tribal brutes with big tusks and they keep invading our land and stealing our crops and swinging axes around" theyll say something about smoking crack and welfare checks and i aint never seen no orc with a crack pipe

[Farquaar]

In the immortal words of the anons of 4chan's /tg/ board:
"Have you tried not playing D&D?"

In seriousness though, just play games with friends or unofficial groups. The real fun in tabletop has always been the freedom to do whatever your group wants. Never let WOTC and their legion of west-coast sensitivity readers take that away- they don't own tabletop and they don't own you either.

[Farquaar]

Also stop giving WOTC money. Give it to Steve Jackson instead.