In this thread we come up with ways to end racism

[dirk_mcblade]

Bottom post of the previous page:

I can't think of a better way to get back at a racist from something like two years ago than to break forum rules.

[AlamoTurtle]

So a racist would have to insult someone of a particular race about 20 times in your presence before you'd feel secure to conclude they're a racist?

That was an example. Any number is arbitrary. The higher it is, the greater the confidence with which you can make the assertion.
Finding out who's secretly racist and who isn't is not my job. I am not on the hunt. If there's no actual discrimination, I couldn't care less.

lmao that's not their actual position, it's just the most convenient one for them because they want to be able to say the word themselves.

The sheer arrogance in thinking you know other people's minds...

Or, or... OR... Wild and hot take from me... We just don't use racial insults and slang and terminology which might hint towards racism or homophobia or any of that shit? People don't need to read your mind, and they're not arrogant for it. How you portray yourself is up to you, and if you portray yourself in a way that others are easy to jump to conclusions, you're more than likely doing something wrong, on the off chance the individual is just fragile. Like you said, "the higher it is, the greater the confidence with which you can make the assertion," so the more people you piss off, the easier it is to assume you're in the wrong. Either way, it's ridiculous to tell people they must read your mind and BELIEVE you when you're saying such controversial shit that you mean no harm, because "you don't know me, I know me, and I can assure you that I'm not bad, trust me. My only defense is is me, I said so, but you're ignorant and arrogant if you don't trust me." Before you know it, all those who harbor racist feelings will be wearing anti-telepathic tinfoil hats as a "fashion trend", lol.

It's much easier to defend your innocence by simply using a more creative insult or word than to use something so demeaning and harsh that is used in racist and homophobic communities daily, but that's just me. I can't read your mind and know whether you have the vocabulary built-up to come up with something else, so I'll just have to default to say that you have good intentions when you don't choose other words instead of pointed and targeted hateful slang, according to your philosophy of repetition.

[Boot]

Or, or... OR... Wild and hot take from me... We just don't use racial insults and slang and terminology which might hint towards racism or homophobia or any of that shit? People don't need to read your mind, and they're not arrogant for it. How you portray yourself is up to you, and if you portray yourself in a way that others are easy to jump to conclusions, you're more than likely doing something wrong, on the off chance the individual is just fragile. Like you said, "the higher it is, the greater the confidence with which you can make the assertion," so the more people you piss off, the easier it is to assume you're in the wrong. Either way, it's ridiculous to tell people they must read your mind and BELIEVE you when you're saying such controversial shit that you mean no harm, because "you don't know me, I know me, and I can assure you that I'm not bad, trust me. My only defense is is me, I said so, but you're ignorant and arrogant if you don't trust me." Before you know it, all those who harbor racist feelings will be wearing anti-telepathic tinfoil hats as a "fashion trend", lol.

It's much easier to defend your innocence by simply using a more creative insult or word than to use something so demeaning and harsh that is used in racist and homophobic communities daily, but that's just me. I can't read your mind and know whether you have the vocabulary built-up to come up with something else, so I'll just have to default to say that you have good intentions when you don't choose other words instead of pointed and targeted hateful slang, according to your philosophy of repetition.

Listen I get the gist here I really do. In a vacuum I am open to this idea however if I already think that people are engaging in bad faith here, not really too upset about the words themselves due to racism but because they want to play internet word police, then I would really have no reason to give any ground. Why would I think that they would stop when I would give this ground? We already see it in this thread where "jannie" is being seen as just an insult tied to "tranny". The main meme here is that why ought I change my messaging to try to appeal to people who just are looking to view me in the worst possible light anyways?

[AlamoTurtle]

Listen I get the gist here I really do. In a vacuum I am open to this idea however if I already think that people are engaging in bad faith here, not really too upset about the words themselves due to racism but because they want to play internet word police, then I would really have no reason to give any ground. Why would I think that they would stop when I would give this ground? We already see it in this thread where "jannie" is being seen as just an insult tied to "tranny". The main meme here is that why ought I change my messaging to try to appeal to people who just are looking to view me in the worst possible light anyways?

Oh, I don't mean to stop using words like jannie and stuff. Just don't literally say the N word and defend it and shit and pretend it's not offensive, lol. The "jannie" argument is fucking stupid. Not even referring to you, you're cool. Maybe, idk.

[dirk_mcblade]

Oh, I don't mean to stop using words like jannie and stuff. Just don't literally say the N word and defend it and shit and pretend it's not offensive, lol. The "jannie" argument is fucking stupid. Not even referring to you, you're cool. Maybe, idk.

You don't. But other people will. Some already are, apparently.
That's why while I think Ekaterina is lying, I also see some of MSO's point.

[conrad]

I think it's pretty understood that Ekaterina's account is a joke account.

[Ziiro]

The "jannie" argument is fucking stupid.

I recognize my deranged rambling is sometimes too correct for the sane.

anyway this entire meandering thread is showing is MSO is the enlightened centrist, champion of our free speech standing as a bulwark between the two points of "don't say slurs" <-----> "I want to call people slurs" at the nexus of "you can say slurs so long as you aren't being a bigot about it*"

*read as: having plausible deniability about being a bigot

[dirk_mcblade]

Ziiro and Ekaterina should be confined together to their own subforum.

[Ziiro]

if it comes to that just ban me

[MrStonedOne]

[propaganda image]

Distorting something to make it look ridiculous does not mean it is ridiculous. You push these people away. They look for other circles. They find circles of actual racists willing to take them in, and they join these circles. They are then slowly indoctrinated by actual racists into actual racism, all because you were oversensitive and bullied them over being an edgelord.

It's not because they "feel bullied" as your image says. It's because they feel accepted... by actual racists, after being rejected by you.

My final thoughts on this thread is just going to be to say that this is a real thing, that happens, and there are people who intentionally stoke this as a means of recruiting people

These fuckers would hang out at the outskirts of MRA communities trying to suck up anybody who got told that being for men's rights was sexist against women, or any sexual assault victim who got accused of what-a-boutism for wanting sexual assault conversations to be a bit more gender neutral. Before Jordan Peterson was getting his talks shutdown in the mainstream, he tried doing the circuit of the MRA personalities. This lasted a month before he basically got rejected. Trad-Cons are bad for men too. Being labeled a provider (and some extra political power if you are rich) is not a fair break for being pressured to work the mines and develop black lung because of your gender, and thats the world tradcons want to bring us back into.

The pipeline is, very simply:

• Convenience them to act in ways that alienates themself from the left (that the left makes very fucking easy to do. "I mean what's wrong with saying its ok to be white? Just say it.").
• Alienate the left from them (that the left usually has a good job doing on its own. "I mean what's wrong with saying its ok to be white? why would the left act so strongly to you saying its ok to be white if they didn't hate white people" and "See, its racist and sexist and transphobic to say ladies|jannies| play a videogame now, remember this when they call somebody racist or sexist or transphobic" (this is called false positive fatigue)).
• Disarm leftist arguments ("The left doesn't believe in real equality, they just want special privilege for minorities. remember this when they accuse our anti-immigrant talk as being racist, or accuse us as being bigots. we just want to protect our homes and our families from these thugs")
• --Responsibility Line: Remember this point in the pipeline, im gonna come back to it.--
• Feed them into communities that bombard them with propaganda about immigrants and minorities and the word "thug".
• Convince them that profiling and fear is normal and just a means to protect yourself, your country, your family, etc.

Like, I understand the argument that anybody who would fall for that is not an ally, I was in the manosphere since my high school days for over 15 years ago and managed to avoid turning into a rightoid, so it's possible to do. but they also weren't actively encouraging bigoted policies to be placed upon minorities until they got sent down the pipeline, and we might be better off if we just let them sit on the center instead of starting them down the path of fascism.

What I don't understand, is why the avg joe who falls for that is the Useful™ Idiot™, and not the mostly college educated leftoids who's ignorance is required for the pipeline to even start.

Look at the line of responsibility I labeled. Everything above requires an argument about the left being true.

It stops working if those statements stop being true.

Why is lying and saying dave chappelle hates trans people worth fueling Ron Desantis?

Why are leftists doing things that can be demonstrated to make the world a worse place for minorities?

Why is racism = prejudge + power worth all the harm it has done?

Why is getting worked up over anything that could maybe be a dog whistle worth providing fuel for the alt-right to grow stronger?

[kayozz]

Radical Idea: We don't try to come up with ways to hurt people that just want to enjoy the game that we are all playing together, and go touch grass for a bit!


With crazy regards
-BONERMASTER

Radical idea. A good one.

[TheLoLSwat]

Radical Idea: We don't try to come up with ways to hurt people that just want to enjoy the game that we are all playing together, and go touch grass for a bit!


With crazy regards
-BONERMASTER

Radical idea. A good one.

yeah ss13 racism is supposed to be really stupid anyway since you are working with moths and lizards and catpeople so why not get creative with the slurs you call them

[dirk_mcblade]

Radical Idea: We don't try to come up with ways to hurt people that just want to enjoy the game that we are all playing together, and go touch grass for a bit!


With crazy regards
-BONERMASTER

Radical idea. A good one.

yeah ss13 racism is supposed to be really stupid anyway since you are working with moths and lizards and catpeople so why not get creative with the slurs you call them

Well you could call moths buggers but that's only TWO letters removed from the gamer word and might evoke painful memories of the times buggery was a defined crime.
Or Orson Scott Card might sue you for infringing on his enders game IP. Actually that might be a strike towards it being rooted in bigotry. Allegedly.

[Armhulen]

man fuck enders game

[BrolyButterfingers]

Ender's Game is one of the gayest YA novels I've ever read and it must make Orson Scott Card so fucking mad to know that he inadvertently made a book about a bunch of gay kids

[dirk_mcblade]

You might not like it but the use of soap as a weapon in science fiction was pioneered by enders game.

[cybersaber101]

264 posts, wowie.

[Farquaar]

I liked the movie for Ender's Game. Never read the book though. Or maybe I did? It would have been a long while ago though.

[dirk_mcblade]

I liked the movie for Ender's Game. Never read the book though. Or maybe I did? It would have been a long while ago though.

It's kind of meh. Main character yeets his rival by slipping him with soap and his brother ends up controlling the world by becoming Q Anon.

[BeeSting12]

I liked the movie for Ender's Game. Never read the book though. Or maybe I did? It would have been a long while ago though.

The book's way better.

[vect0r]

The book is great

[iwishforducks]

ender’s game was great. i read it years ago and i will never read it again because im sure it would suck. either way it was the gayest shit ever. amazing book

[iwishforducks]

Radical Idea: We don't try to come up with ways to hurt people that just want to enjoy the game that we are all playing together, and go touch grass for a bit!


With crazy regards
-BONERMASTER

Radical idea. A good one.

yeah ss13 racism is supposed to be really stupid anyway since you are working with moths and lizards and catpeople so why not get creative with the slurs you call them

Well you could call moths buggers but that's only TWO letters removed from the gamer word and might evoke painful memories of the times buggery was a defined crime.
Or Orson Scott Card might sue you for infringing on his enders game IP. Actually that might be a strike towards it being rooted in bigotry. Allegedly.

my moth name is bugger

[BrolyButterfingers]

ender’s game was great. i read it years ago and i will never read it again because im sure it would suck. either way it was the gayest shit ever. amazing book

Book still holds up, shit's also Lil Nas X levels of gay

[dendydoom]

it's somewhat ironic to me that the defence of slurs as a way to not fold to the sensitivity of others is commonly made by people who, at the root of it all, feel personally attacked for being criticized for saying them.

i read honestly too much of this thread while trying to decipher what was a defence of bigotry and what was merely a kneejerk reaction to the perceived actions of "the left" until i realized who fucking cares dude?

you can spend all day and night wasting your time concocting scenarios in which "if you say it in this context, it's okay. if we banned all slurs, then this valid situation would be destroyed!" but truthfully deep down we know this is a flimsy defence and isn't the true reason why people who enjoy saying those words are saying them, it's a weak smokescreen to try and lend credibility to a lazy and intolerant rhetoric and a way to filter out people who don't pass the slur vibe check by normalizing that language across the entire community.

should we outright instantly ban people for using that language? some say yes, some say no, but the real point here is: should we cheer it on and accept its normalization without any sort of criticism or thought? absolutely not.

unless you're in a court reading off a transcript of what someone said, there's 2 reasons to say a racial slur:

1) you're trying to make people uncomfortable by saying the most shocking thing you can think of and then you don't want to catch heat for intentionally saying things that make other people uncomfortable so you hide behind "it's a joke bro calm down what next i can't say master C/slave D?"

2) you're a racist

both of these things makes someone a jackass. both of these things lead to a dogshit community that's frankly embarrassing to try and defend through semantics. we all know the real world is complicated. we all know the reality of prejudice and racism and its impact is an extremely complicated problem that won't be solved by a thread in the shitpost forum. what we do know is that it leads to a terrible and intolerant community when it becomes the norm.

much like the same place MSO draws his experiences from, i can only provide you with a personal anecdote to this:

i turned 30 this year, i'm an autistic woman that grew up spending every minute of my free time online back in the day where real world politics and influence had yet to touch the internet, where we all collectively pissed our pants when the news made mention of 4chan or something online because it just never happened. all of this language was normalized, used everywhere, because it was "in a vacuum" and "edgy humour" and in my teen years i participated in it because i wanted the people in my circles to like and accept me, and it genuinely made me develop a deep seated sense of self loathing because while the language didn't target me specifically, it still applied to me, and i saw people that i liked and respected and wanted acceptance from accepting it and even applauding it. the choice was to either accept it or be pushed out of the one place that i had left to hide in from the world. it made me subconsciously hate myself to see people that i consider friends brazenly use terms that could easily be applied to me with a couple words prefixed (you're a xxxx) but they would defend it by saying it's just in a vacuum, it's just a joke, and that the real issue was that i was too sensitive, that i took it too seriously, and that i was the real problem by being hurt by "just words". guess what? everyone is affected by the language we use. we have to take personal responsibility for the things we say and the way we treat other people. it's really that simple. if you're being an asshole, then there's no defence: you're just an asshole. acting in defiance of "woke" anecdotes you saw on digg doesn't change that.

i'm not saying that's exactly what's happening here, but in many ways it sure feels like it. it's disregarding the complexity of the meaning and impact of words either because it's too complicated to bother with or because it makes people who aren't affected by the casual use of slurs uncomfortable to have to recognize that words mean things. and what for? so some people can take the lazy route and reach for words they know are shocking and upsetting. if you want to talk about catering to the lowest common denominator, then here we are. but aside from that, most importantly, it creates a community that makes low effort ignorant shitposters feel the most welcome and pushes out anyone who doesn't feel cool with hanging out with a community that almost takes pride in the fact that spamming slurs is the peak of comedy. if you ever feel frustrated at how rude, intolerant and frankly stupid some of the most vocal community members can be, then consider how the foundational mechanisms of the community support those voices and deflect criticism of them under some misguided defence of free speech (another frankly ironic facet of this thread but we're reaching novel levels of wordcount here and i'm agonizingly becoming aware of it.)

and, finally, if you've made it this far, if we're speaking openly and honestly, it embarrasses me to recognize that i'm a part of that community. it makes me feel genuine shame, and regrettably i still find myself unable to escape trying to explain it away in the hopes that the underlying good of this community will still shine through. SS13 and tgstation is a beautiful game with wonderful players who tell incredible stories together in a way that's so unique and so special that it can't be found anywhere else. i wish more people would recognize and put effort into that aspect of it and understand what an incredible and unique thing we've made together rather than whatever the fuck this absolute mess of a thread is. but with the attitudes that come out in places like this thread i will never feel comfortable bringing my friends into it until we grow up.

EDIT: for the record, because it's important to me to make this clear, do i think MSO is a racist? no. absolutely not. misplaced good intentions perhaps? yes, a little. i think he's a damn good sysadmin and excellent at what he does and things like rule 11 and slurs being added to the ooc filter are good changes that were made with good intentions.

[ekaterina]

[long fancy post]

None of the arguments you made are new, they all echo arguments that others have already made in this thread or its predecessors.
As it stands, it's still not my problem that you're upset by a word. We can't cater to everyone. Some people are upset by spiders, others by clowns, and I don't see you calling on us to remove either of those things.

You also either wilfully ignored or outright missed a third reason to say it, even though you practically mention it in your anecdote.
That reason is that the words are already a part of your vocabulary, (as in, for example the 4chan communities, from which this server originates) and you refuse to go out of your way to change it because of oversensitive people.

[dendydoom]

[long fancy post]

None of the arguments you made are new, they all echo arguments that others have already made in this thread or its predecessors.
As it stands, it's still not my problem that you're upset by a word. We can't cater to everyone. Some people are upset by spiders, others by clowns, and I don't see you calling on us to remove either of those things.

You also either wilfully ignored or outright missed a third reason to say it, even though you practically mention it in your anecdote.
That reason is that the words are already a part of your vocabulary, (as in, for example the 4chan communities, from which this server originates) and you refuse to go out of your way to change it because of oversensitive people.

that's not a third reason, it falls under the first reason. you're clutching at semantics to explain why you're an asshole, i've seen it a million times before. now a million and one.

your reductive reasoning over equating not liking spiders to not liking racial slurs will not work in dragging me into a long, drawn out debate into whether or not you're a dipshit. i already know the answer to that. it was a good attempt, though. well done.

[ekaterina]

[long fancy post]

None of the arguments you made are new, they all echo arguments that others have already made in this thread or its predecessors.
As it stands, it's still not my problem that you're upset by a word. We can't cater to everyone. Some people are upset by spiders, others by clowns, and I don't see you calling on us to remove either of those things.

You also either wilfully ignored or outright missed a third reason to say it, even though you practically mention it in your anecdote.
That reason is that the words are already a part of your vocabulary, (as in, for example the 4chan communities, from which this server originates) and you refuse to go out of your way to change it because of oversensitive people.

that's not a third reason, it falls under the first reason. you're clutching at semantics to explain why you're an asshole, i've seen it a million times before. now a million and one.

Are you actually claiming purposefully trying to shock people is the same as not caring?

your reductive reasoning over equating not liking spiders to not liking racial slurs will not work in dragging me into a long, drawn out debate into whether or not you're a dipshit. i already know the answer to that. it was a good attempt, though. well done.

One of us wants freedom. The other wants to curtail free speech because of mean words. Which one of us is a dipshit is self-evident.

[dendydoom]

Which one of us is a dipshit is self-evident.

see? we can agree on something. this is progress. i'm proud of you.

[Armhulen]

guys we just caught up on like 2 years of not talking about rule 11 over a few threads... we done here? i mean fucking enders game is beginning to seep into this thread, so i'm just asking

[kayozz]

One of us wants freedom. The other wants to curtail free speech because of mean words. Which one of us is a dipshit is self-evident.

Cringe. Anyone who spouts 'freedom' as an excuse to sling slurs at people is beyond helping in my opinion. Go back to 4chan.
Just to clarify, YOU are the dipshit. You.

!	Message from: mso
	User was banned for inciting a thread to get heated enough to need to be locked via tasteless personal attacks.

[ekaterina]

muh feewings!1!!1!!

"HHAHAA LOOK AT MY IMAGE! SEE? I DREW AN IMAGE WHERE YOU'RE UGLY WHICH MEANS I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG HAHAA!"

[AsbestosSniffer]

Please keep fighting, it sustains me. I DEMAND BLOOD! I DEMAND SPECTACLE!

[TheLoLSwat]

Please keep fighting, it sustains me, I DEMAND BLOOD! I DEMAND SPECTACLE!

the "fighting" in question:

[AsbestosSniffer]

the "fighting" in question:

What do you mean you don't take entertainment from rabid pugilism?

[kayozz]

muh feewings!1!!1!!

"HHAHAA LOOK AT MY IMAGE! SEE? I DREW AN IMAGE WHERE YOU'RE UGLY WHICH MEANS I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG HAHAA!"

What liberties have you lost? The right to be racist? The right to be homophobic?
You sad little person.

[Armhulen]

Yes, I do really think this thread can be sunset. Thanks for posting honestly to those who did, discussions like this are important regardless of whom you're agreeing and disagreeing with.
Considering we just went through two rule 11 discussion threads in a row it might make sense to have a little cooldown on this topic if it's not related to anything current but *just* let's bring up the rule 11 discussion again. Just putting that out there. Between this, and the terry thread, we've had around ~420 posts so another thread is just going to end up like page 6 of this one where we talk about enders game and send embedded images owning other forum posters.