Henry Revealed To Be Mastermind Behind Reiders Insanity Peanut

[Kendrickorium]

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=33835

damn you, Henry.

[JusticeGoat]

What if some rounds you just don't get your desired items and you deal with it by obtaining another elsewhere?

[Armhulen]

Henry also took public tool storage's toolbelt that I desired before I was able to, which added to my reasoning of this action.

What the hell? I launched the wrong game! This isn't AMONGUS

[Vekter]

What if some rounds you just don't get your desired items and you deal with it by obtaining another elsewhere?

[Jacquerel]

If a toddler was capable of crushing someone in an airlock in retaliation for taking a thing they wanted then they would do it, not sure how many years you need to add before that ceases to be what I expect from someone but it's not many.

[TheRex9001]

I dont know this Henry guy might be collaborating with Clara, worth keeping an eye on.

[Pandarsenic]

If I say all the things I want to say about Reider I'll get put on fnr post approval but

I have to say

We always love the rare peanuts where nobody shows up to defend the appellant.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

If I say all the things I want to say about Reider I'll get put on fnr post approval but

I have to say

We always love the rare peanuts where nobody shows up to defend the appellant.

headmin review

[Cheshify]

"Headmin Review"
Ok Karen

[Kubisopplay]

"Headmin Review"
Ok Karen

Headmin review of this admin

[Armhulen]

"Headmin Review"
Ok Karen

Headmin Review

[ekaterina]

So we're banning assistants for fighting with other assistants now?
The admins are stealing our jobs!! This is sec content!

[Kendrickorium]

"Headmin Review"
Ok Karen

Headmin Review

ill be making an admin complaint, thanks for this

FOR THOSE OF YOU THAT CANT READ

"methinks a line has to be drawn in the sand when everyone's playing the "how-close-can-i-get-to-making-a-low-effort-post-chain" that gets people warned eventually pretty much every time and post announcement + merging into rules post + previous warning one should know better than to leave their post devoid of content in a manner that seems incredibly easy to start a low effort post chain from"
-Armhulen, 2023

[Vekter]

"Headmin Review"
Ok Karen

Headmin Review

ill be making an admin complaint, thanks for this

I can't even fucking read it, Kendrick.

[Kendrickorium]

"Headmin Review"
Ok Karen

Headmin Review

ill be making an admin complaint, thanks for this

I can't even fucking read it, Kendrick.

IM NOT GOOD AT THESE THINGS, OKAY

[Pandarsenic]

"Headmin Review"
Ok Karen

Headmin Review

ill be making an admin complaint, thanks for this

I can't even fucking read it, Kendrick.

IM NOT GOOD AT THESE THINGS, OKAY

Headmi—

[PengisBungholius]

wouldn't "you didn't do it because of that." from vekter in the ticket be what Reider was saying "no but that makes them valid to be crushed" to?

[sinfulbliss]

getting firelocked a single time for a squabble over an item you both want is an IC issue

[TheLoLSwat]

understandable. pretty IC but its so close to the line that someone with reiders history doing it can be a no no for the admins. I hope to see him back as sec

[Armhulen]

"Headmin Review"
Ok Karen

Headmin Review

ill be making an admin complaint, thanks for this

FOR THOSE OF YOU THAT CANT READ

"methinks a line has to be drawn in the sand when everyone's playing the "how-close-can-i-get-to-making-a-low-effort-post-chain" that gets people warned eventually pretty much every time and post announcement + merging into rules post + previous warning one should know better than to leave their post devoid of content in a manner that seems incredibly easy to start a low effort post chain from"
-Armhulen, 2023

I missed you, never leave me again kenddy

[datorangebottle]

I have to say

We always love the rare peanuts where nobody shows up to defend the appellant.

To be fair, I was asleep.

This is a massive IC issue, even considering Reider's previous history.
Why was this even put on Vekter's table?
Did Vekter see it and go "oh, that's bullshit"?
Did the giant fucking baby that got firelock crushed once for valid reasons ahelp it?
Reider's note history is because he had a pattern of randomly firelock crushing people, not because he firelock crushed people as a preventative measure or because they were going to beat him to something they were both going after. Jesus christ. He's literally being punished for following the recommendation in that note.

[2023-02-18 02:46:04 | note by rageguy505]
Stunned and wordlessly firelock crushed someone for no reason as a non-antag and gave them a stack sutures after. Have atleast a IC reason before assaulting people.

I don't even like Reider. I think he's an asshole. But this is an absurd ban.

[Armhulen]

I have to say

We always love the rare peanuts where nobody shows up to defend the appellant.

To be fair, I was asleep.

This is a massive IC issue, even considering Reider's previous history.
Why was this even put on Vekter's table?
Did Vekter see it and go "oh, that's bullshit"?
Did the giant fucking baby that got firelock crushed once for valid reasons ahelp it?
Reider's note history is because he had a pattern of randomly firelock crushing people, not because he firelock crushed people as a preventative measure or because they were going to beat him to something they were both going after. Jesus christ. He's literally being punished for following the recommendation in that note.

[2023-02-18 02:46:04 | note by rageguy505]
Stunned and wordlessly firelock crushed someone for no reason as a non-antag and gave them a stack sutures after. Have atleast a IC reason before assaulting people.

I don't even like Reider. I think he's an asshole. But this is an absurd ban.

firelocking people over "he took THE ROUNDSTART belt!!!" is degenerate gameplay and that's all i need to agree with it

[Turbonerd]

Roundstart tech storage fighting is NRP cringe. Treat the round as if it hasn't just started and play normally, not that hard. They're both cringe shits.

[Vekter]

I have to say

We always love the rare peanuts where nobody shows up to defend the appellant.

To be fair, I was asleep.

This is a massive IC issue, even considering Reider's previous history.
Why was this even put on Vekter's table?
Did Vekter see it and go "oh, that's bullshit"?
Did the giant fucking baby that got firelock crushed once for valid reasons ahelp it?
Reider's note history is because he had a pattern of randomly firelock crushing people, not because he firelock crushed people as a preventative measure or because they were going to beat him to something they were both going after. Jesus christ. He's literally being punished for following the recommendation in that note.

[2023-02-18 02:46:04 | note by rageguy505]
Stunned and wordlessly firelock crushed someone for no reason as a non-antag and gave them a stack sutures after. Have atleast a IC reason before assaulting people.

I don't even like Reider. I think he's an asshole. But this is an absurd ban.

Ratio.

[datorangebottle]

firelocking people over "he took THE ROUNDSTART belt!!!" is degenerate gameplay and that's all i need to agree with it

What is 'degenerate gameplay' even supposed to mean?
Regardless, what sort of world do we live in where 15 brute damage that doesn't kill someone and is in some way justified is grounds for any sort of administrative action?
I just don't see where this crosses any lines whatsoever.
Are we fulpstation now? Do we really want to cultivate an environment where players are scared to punch each other in the face as part of roleplay(something I have done and will continue to do) because an admin could see it and ban them?

[datorangebottle]

Ratio.

You're a tool.

[Vekter]

firelocking people over "he took THE ROUNDSTART belt!!!" is degenerate gameplay and that's all i need to agree with it

What is 'degenerate gameplay' even supposed to mean?
Regardless, what sort of world do we live in where 15 brute damage that doesn't kill someone and is in some way justified is grounds for any sort of administrative action?
I just don't see where this crosses any lines whatsoever.
Are we fulpstation now? Do we really want to cultivate an environment where players are scared to punch each other in the face as part of roleplay(something I have done and will continue to do) because an admin could see it and ban them?

I would like to culture an environment where it's not considered to be a reasonable action to slam someone's body into a fucking door because they took something you wanted.

People resort to violence way too fucking easily in this game. Hell, people run around shoving each other into the walls for fun. I'm not ever going to argue that LRP needs to be the same as MRP or that the servers should be anything like Fulp, but no, I don't think people being able to wordlessly beat the piss out of each other for a pair of gloves is "peak gameplay" nor is it something we should be encouraging.

[kieth4]

I don't particularly view this as an issue, however I don't like the attitude!

I wish people were more honest with this stuff, he obviously did it for the belt or gloves or w/e and trying to find bs reasons to justify it is cringe, I think he would have gotten a better response if from the get go he was 100% truthful.

However, the history kinda makes this iffy, with a history like and a note for a random crush not that long ago makes me kinda iffy.

No idea on what I'll rule on as despite me not viewing this as an issue he does have a history & tried to make an excuse (which I don't entirely believe.)

[dirk_mcblade]

It's a bold strategy calling the guy posting logs a nerd. Surely this will increase the appellates intangible rapport with the admins and it could give him that edge to push him over the finish line into a successful appeal.

[conrad]

It's a bold strategy calling the guy posting logs a nerd. Surely this will increase the appellates intangible rapport with the admins and it could give him that edge to push him over the finish line into a successful appeal.

Maskenary is not here to make friends.

[SkeletalElite]

I don't think people being able to wordlessly beat the piss out of each other for a pair of gloves is "peak gameplay" nor is it something we should be encouraging.

I disagree.
You will do more damage stunning someone with rubbershot than you will firelock crushing them once. Imagine taking a little brute damage in a scuffle. Imagine.
The escalation rules say "As a non-antagonist you may begin conflict with another player with valid reason (refusal of critical services, belligerent attitude, etc) OR if it does not excessively interfere with their ability to do their job"


Reider had a reason (getting the gloves before henry) and did not excessively interfere with henry's round.

[datorangebottle]

I would like to culture an environment where it's not considered to be a reasonable action to slam someone's body into a fucking door because they took something you wanted.

It's not just because they took something he wanted- they were going to take something else he wanted, and he wanted to beat them to it. A firelock crush comes with a decently long stun. It was his best and only option for remaining in the running for that pair of funny yellow gloves. You did provide a number of alternatives in the appeal, which I'll address briefly in a spoiler:

► Show Spoiler

Shove/table him (does no lethal damage) - Doesn't last long enough and relies heavily on positioning, is really only useful for leading into a firelock crush to keep him down for longer.
talk the problem out - The other guy has nothing to gain from bargaining for the easiest pair of gloves and toolbelt to get in the game, especially not from another assistant. Reider has nothing to offer this guy. There's no grounds for discussion.
go to Engineering and ask for gloves (of which there are often extras) - Engineers guard these extra supplies with their lives, and there's a long-standing enmity between engineers and assistants because of conflicts over these spare gloves. Asking would generally get him nowhere.
, see if Cargo could order one for you (idk about other QMs but I wouldn't balk at it), - Similar story to Engineering, though slightly more likely to succeed. Only slightly. The short of it is that cargo's typically very defensive about their money and don't want to spend it on some rando assistant when it could better be spent on any number of other things. I have successfully done this before, but it usually takes the first entire half hour of the round to get it done, and by then any plans I had are pre-emptively foiled by other people getting there first.
have Security step in - Laughable. The most you can do is tell them that <x> broke into tech storage and maybe get his tools and gloves confiscated on a permanent basis as borderline rule 1 levels of petty revenge. Most security staff really won't care that assistants broke into non-secure tech storage.

People resort to violence way too fucking easily in this game. Hell, people run around shoving each other into the walls for fun. I'm not ever going to argue that LRP needs to be the same as MRP or that the servers should be anything like Fulp, but no, I don't think people being able to wordlessly beat the piss out of each other for a pair of gloves is "peak gameplay" nor is it something we should be encouraging.

A few points, here:
He didn't beat the piss out of the guy. He did a whopping fifteen brute damage. That's not even enough to disable a limb. If he had put him into crit, we wouldn't be having this discussion. You are consistently exaggerating how much damage he actually dealt here.
I don't think it's peak gameplay either, but the roundstart competition for the gloves sure enables it for whoever wins. For assistants, those gloves can make or break a round. They're part of baseline access to the sandbox.
I also don't think it's something we should be actively discouraging either. Players should be allowed to play a more aggressive character. Someone who's quick to jump into a fight. Before you go off quoting the rules at me, I'm not saying people should be allowed to be insane and just murder other people for gloves. Some minor brute damage? That should be on the table.

Lastly, I'd really like you to address this question from me, if nothing else:

Why was this even put on Vekter's table?

Why were you even involved in the first place? I don't understand. It's a very clear IC issue with little to no coverage in the rules, to me.

[iwishforducks]

reider consistently and constantly baits people into escalating with him. i've seen him firelock crush people in every round he's in (if he's not an antag)

[Armhulen]

What is 'degenerate gameplay' even supposed to mean?

If everyone was playing like the person in question, would everyone leave for more enjoyable servers?
Do they increase the fun of the round, or are they a fun leeching parasite for their own enjoyment?

[Capsandi]

this thread rules

[sinfulbliss]

What is 'degenerate gameplay' even supposed to mean?

If everyone was playing like the person in question, would everyone leave for more enjoyable servers?
Do they increase the fun of the round, or are they a fun leeching parasite for their own enjoyment?

Here’s the issue with handling this stuff administratively:
It means minor crimes confirm the person to be an antagonist.

If people receive notes and bans for the simple theft of someone’s insuls or a toolbelt, it relegates these crimes to antagonists, and on LRP servers where antag = valid, you start to have real issues.

I played Fulp for a while where hacking to departments was bwoinkable, because in their view, it made the round worse for a bunch of shitters to be hacking wherever they wanted to go. The downside of course is that hacking into a department told sec instantly you were either A) about to be bwoinked, or B) an antag.

Very harmless tiding like this is a net benefit to the servers, because it serves as a baseline chaos that gives antags breathing room.

[Vekter]

Reider had a reason (getting the gloves before henry)

The appropriate response to "someone might take something before I can" is not "crush them with a firelock so I can get to it first", it's "GO GET ANOTHER ONE SOMEWHERE ELSE".

You guys are focusing on the wrong thing. The issue is that:

1) Reider's reason for attacking the other player was stupid, and
2) Reider has done this far, far more times than is really reasonable.

I don't think it's unreasonable for me to expect people to act like adults when we have an 18+ rule. If someone might get something you want before you, try to get it first. If you don't, oh fucking well. Maybe you don't get that item for the round. Insulated gloves aren't mandatory to your enjoyment of the game. Maybe you go somewhere else to get them, as I suggested in the appeal.

E: The forums didn't tell me Sinful posted before I did because they are bad.

Very harmless tiding like this is a net benefit to the servers, because it serves as a baseline chaos that gives antags breathing room.

You're right in moderation. The issue comes when it becomes the general norm of the server for people to do shit like this. I banned Reider because it's a constant issue with him. You should be allowed to greytide a little as a treat, but if you make it your entire personality, you are going to get your shit kicked in.

[Chadley]

What I wouldn't give to see Reider's note history.

I bet it reads like an essay.

[ekaterina]

Roundstart tech storage fighting is NRP cringe. Treat the round as if it hasn't just started and play normally, not that hard. They're both cringe shits.

Complaining about NRP assistants... on Terry...
it's hard to believe you actually play on Terry with opinions like this.

No idea on what I'll rule on as despite me not viewing this as an issue he does have a history & tried to make an excuse (which I don't entirely believe.)

All a history can do is amplify an issue, and make the punishment for reoccurring offences harsher. Having a history does not make a something that is not an issue into an issue.

If everyone was playing like the person in question, would everyone leave for more enjoyable servers?

Irrelevant. He was an assistant. If we applied the standard for assistants to every job, of course the server would go to shit.
Assistants' primary function is to do minor grief and be sec content, change my mind.

Appeal denied.

Vekter denying an appeal? Who could've seen this coming?

The appropriate response to "someone might take something before I can" is not "crush them with a firelock so I can get to it first", it's "GO GET ANOTHER ONE SOMEWHERE ELSE".

You're not here to educate Reider on how to be polite, but to enforce rules. Point to the rule he actually broke.

1) Reider's reason for attacking the other player was stupid, and
2) Reider has done this far, far more times than is really reasonable.

His reason was valid per escalation policy as others have explained, and having done valid actions in the past is irrelevant.

I don't think it's unreasonable for me to expect people to act like adults when we have an 18+ rule. If someone might get something you want before you, try to get it first. If you don't, oh fucking well. Maybe you don't get that item for the round. Insulated gloves aren't mandatory to your enjoyment of the game. Maybe you go somewhere else to get them, as I suggested in the appeal.

The player acting like an adult (OOC) is not the same as the character acting like an adult.

Very harmless tiding like this is a net benefit to the servers, because it serves as a baseline chaos that gives antags breathing room.

You're right in moderation. The issue comes when it becomes the general norm of the server for people to do shit like this. I banned Reider because it's a constant issue with him. You should be allowed to greytide a little as a treat, but if you make it your entire personality, you are going to get your shit kicked in.

Assistants like Reider make for sec content and create the potential for interesting interactions.
The admin's job is not to be untouchable security. As the representative of the Security Officers' Union, I have to say: stop taking our jobs!

[Vekter]

Lastly, I'd really like you to address this question from me, if nothing else:

Why was this even put on Vekter's table?

Why were you even involved in the first place? I don't understand. It's a very clear IC issue with little to no coverage in the rules, to me.

I genuinely don't have to answer this question and, given the attitude of the few people in this thread who disagree with me, answering it does nothing but put me in a worse place. Either "Someone adminhelped", which puts pressure on the person who was involved and makes them much less likely to adminhelp in the future, or "I did it of my own volition", which (in your eyes) makes me look like an asshole.

[Timberpoes]

The appeal has been adequately reviewed.

[ekaterina]

The appeal has been adequately reviewed.

Based, now review my essay.
I am requesting Poes' review.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

I think that the crew getting violent with each other over petty matters is a *good* thing, especially in cases like this where there's clearly no intent to continue harming someone... I dont like the idea that the only reason you ever cause damage to someone is that you want to crit/kill them. Death matches over stupid stuff sucks, but removing low-level violence like punching someone because they're taking all the good tools you wanted makes me sad. `

[Vekter]

I think that the crew getting violent with each other over petty matters is a *good* thing, especially in cases like this where there's clearly no intent to continue harming someone... I dont like the idea that the only reason you ever cause damage to someone is that you want to crit/kill them. Death matches over stupid stuff sucks, but removing low-level violence like punching someone because they're taking all the good tools you wanted makes me sad. `

Again, it's worth noting that this is a problem of sheer volume. I don't agree that you should constantly come to blows over extremely petty things, but the rules don't agree with me in general. It's allowed, as long as it's not a constant issue.

Reider has been a constant issue for months now.

[ekaterina]

the rules don't agree with me in general.

If you acknowledge your ban was not in accordance with the rules, why did you reject the appeal?

P.S. I responded to your old post in my long one - I was still editing when you made a new post, not sure whether you saw it or not - check if there's anything you want to reply to.

[Boot]

Hypothetically right if Reider "just went to go somewhere else for the gloves" but this played out just as it did before would he still be getting banned here?

[Vekter]

the rules don't agree with me in general.

If you acknowledge your ban was not in accordance with the rules, why did you reject the appeal?

P.S. I responded to your old post in my long one - I was still editing when you made a new post, not sure whether you saw it or not - check if there's anything you want to reply to.

I have you blocked, which is why I haven't been responding to your posts, but I feel like this one is safe since it's a pretty reasonable question.

My actions are well within the rules. 5-6 other admins agreed with me (with no dissenting opinion) at the time of the incident.

My opinion in regards to the rules are that we're often too lenient on greytiding on both servers (moreso on Manuel) and that we should be addressing these issues early on with players before it becomes as bad as it has with Reider. A talk with him when he'd played 50-100 hours could've resulted in a lot less headache. Mind you, that doesn't mean that I think we should be banning people for only a few offenses early on in their time here. I'm speaking more from a guiding standpoint than a punitive one.

Where you're getting confused is in the belief that my opinion has anything to do with how I enforce the rules. I'm allowed to not agree with how the server is run. Ask MSO, it's been a constant thing between us for months now. It's also why I post so much in Policy Discussion. But I'm also mature enough to know that, even if I don't agree with every little rule we have, I still have to enforce them if I'm going to be an admin.

tl;dr I didn't ban him because of my opinion, I banned him because he broke the rules.

[TheLoLSwat]

chef meza is the future...

[datorangebottle]

Lastly, I'd really like you to address this question from me, if nothing else:

Why was this even put on Vekter's table?

Why were you even involved in the first place? I don't understand. It's a very clear IC issue with little to no coverage in the rules, to me.

I genuinely don't have to answer this question and, given the attitude of the few people in this thread who disagree with me, answering it does nothing but put me in a worse place. Either "Someone adminhelped", which puts pressure on the person who was involved and makes them much less likely to adminhelp in the future, or "I did it of my own volition", which (in your eyes) makes me look like an asshole.

A fair point to make. I have a couple of counterpoints, even if they're unlikely to change anything about your stance.
Making someone adminhelp less about things that are clear IC issues is a net benefit, as it wastes less peoples' time.
You already look like an asshole in my eyes for acting on something that (in my opinion, admittedly) wasn't actionable.
I've cooled down a bit by now. I'm just concerned, because I usually just assume that an admin got involved because of an ahelp. The way it looks is that a player decided to get the pettiest revenge possible for someone else getting to the gloves before them, by remembering that Reider had a very public ban about firelock crushing a little while back and ahelping it to get him banned again.

[Shellton(Mario)]

Am not going to care about 15 brute damage even with reiders history. He had a reason for it and if the player wants he can escalation against him.

IC ISSUE