Muh realism codenut

[The Wrench]

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/74770

Lol

[conrad]

[kinnebian]

this dude peanuted an ALREADY merged thing... SMH!!!
theres nothing to bicker over here, its already done!!!

[datorangebottle]

>scare off good faith mining players with overpowered enemies, annoying gear acquisition, and no ORM on lavaland
>make having good-faith miners more important
I don't know what to tell you.

[sinfulbliss]

>scare off good faith mining players with overpowered enemies, annoying gear acquisition, and no ORM on lavaland
>make having good-faith miners more important
I don't know what to tell you.

>scare off good-faith science players with experisci, toilet scanning, complex gas shell experiments
>make having good-faith science players more important by locking more things behind RND

[chocolate_bickie]

>scare off good faith mining players with overpowered enemies, annoying gear acquisition, and no ORM on lavaland
>make having good-faith miners more important
I don't know what to tell you.

>scare off good-faith science players with experisci, toilet scanning, complex gas shell experiments
>make having good-faith science players more important by locking more things behind RND

Why do I have to scan 4 uranium walls????

It literally kills my character.

In fact why do I have to scan more than one of everything.

What gameplay values comes from making 4 meat toilets?

[datorangebottle]

>scare off good faith mining players with overpowered enemies, annoying gear acquisition, and no ORM on lavaland
>make having good-faith miners more important
I don't know what to tell you.

>scare off good-faith science players with experisci, toilet scanning, complex gas shell experiments
>make having good-faith science players more important by locking more things behind RND

This comparison doesn't work because there were no good-faith science players.
Let me elaborate.
Science, for a long time, was a job about doing research to benefit the station as a whole. The majority of scientists(including myself sometimes, so I may be projecting a little) had a specific idea for what they wanted to do as a scientist and abandoned the console as soon as they had the thing because R&D is miserably boring. Playing a job just to get the cool stuff isn't playing it in good faith.
Mining is supposedly about supplying the station with ore. Players not playing mining in good faith are rushing megafauna instead to get the reliable cool stuff instead of actually mining, because fighting megafauna is fun, killing them gives you cool loot, and dying to them lets you sit around and wait for midround antag.

[BlueMemesauce]

Somehow "bluespace links" are more realistic than synthesizing metal. I honestly think bluespace links are dumb, you could have just made it so borgs go to the ore silo to pick up materials manually.

Removing bluespace links would solve the problem of antagonists being able to drain the entire ore silo from any random protolathe in a matter of seconds. It also would give cargo techs a job to do, they could go around restocking people's protolathes.

[oranges]

realism has nothing to do with it it's entirely game design, there's no need for people to get things for free when there are ways to get them in game via player effort.

[Vekter]

I'm never a fan of fixing part of a problem while leaving the actual issue intact, but "borgs making infinite metal" is something that probably shouldn't exist.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

I guess this is good from a balance and realism perspective but damn if it isnt another day another "Make construction even more tedious and odious" PR.

[dirk_mcblade]

Good. Fuck em

[iwishforducks]

I guess this is good from a balance and realism perspective but damn if it isnt another day another "Make construction even more tedious and odious" PR.

[Drag]

What's next? In april you have to file fake space-men taxes? You get banned if you don't do it?

[iwishforducks]

resource economy will never work btw, not in the current iteration anyhow

[conrad]

Good. Fuck em

Fuck who, borgs? This is a station-wide nerf.

[EmpressMaia]

This is a really shitty change. Borgs were fine.

[Kendrickorium]

i see absolutely nothing wrong with this. it makes mining even more important, and will give the AI a department to bug when their cyborgs start complaining about no metal

edit: doesn't this game have mining BORGS

[datorangebottle]

i see absolutely nothing wrong with this. it makes mining even more important, and will give the AI a department to bug when their cyborgs start complaining about no metal

edit: doesn't this game have mining BORGS

The problem is that it makes mining more important.
Miners would rather hunt megafauna because most consider just hitting rocks all shift boring.
Also, forcing borgs to spec into miner is inhumane.

[Armhulen]

resource economy will never work btw, not in the current iteration anyhow

>entire game balanced by item economy
>item economy is busted as shit
bros...

[CMDR_Gungnir]

i see absolutely nothing wrong with this. it makes mining even more important, and will give the AI a department to bug when their cyborgs start complaining about no metal

edit: doesn't this game have mining BORGS

The problem is that it makes mining more important.
Miners would rather hunt megafauna because most consider just hitting rocks all shift boring.
Also, forcing borgs to spec into miner is inhumane.

Not only that (A large part of the problem with Infinite Metal Engi Borgs was "go engi we need metals" being really fucking lame. Wow, congratulations, now you're forcing them to go something even less of them wanted to be and for a much longer time), but Mining Borgs are also very much weaker. Not just in the "can't fight megas as well" sense but in the fact that their PKA, the only real way a borg has to mine, has less upgrade capacity, and can only fit 2 mods instead of 3.

It's fucked.

[datorangebottle]

Not only that (A large part of the problem with Infinite Metal Engi Borgs was "go engi we need metals" being really fucking lame. Wow, congratulations, now you're forcing them to go something even less of them wanted to be and for a much longer time), but Mining Borgs are also very much weaker. Not just in the "can't fight megas as well" sense but in the fact that their PKA, the only real way a borg has to mine, has less upgrade capacity, and can only fit 2 mods instead of 3.

It's fucked.

It's not even that they can't fight megas, they can if they're skilled enough. They just don't get any benefit for doing so and it's a law three violation unless you're doing it to save humans from harm or because a human ordered you to.

[Capsandi]

When is engineering getting hardspace ship breaker as a side job? Call in a wrecked shuttle and scrap it for bits when the miners are all dead. I can already see areas we could add it in on meta, delta, kilo, and icebox. I'd be willing to map that.

[Kendrickorium]

i see absolutely nothing wrong with this. it makes mining even more important, and will give the AI a department to bug when their cyborgs start complaining about no metal

edit: doesn't this game have mining BORGS

The problem is that it makes mining more important.
Miners would rather hunt megafauna because most consider just hitting rocks all shift boring.
Also, forcing borgs to spec into miner is inhumane.

ahhh thats a good point.

>Also, forcing borgs to spec into miner is inhumane.

good thing they arent humans! (haha)

perhaps the different levels of fauna on lavaland could be gated off, where you have to mine a certain amount in order for nanotrasen to allow you access? someone else could probably come up with a better idea.

[Indie-ana Jones]

It's not even that they can't fight megas, they can if they're skilled enough. They just don't get any benefit for doing so and it's a law three violation unless you're doing it to save humans from harm or because a human ordered you to.

I wouldn't call it a law three violation. Technically, by removing the megafauna from lavaland, you remove the chance that any human from the station or otherwise can ever be harmed by them. Arguably, its a law 2 violation to leave them wandering around, along with any sort of fauna that might attack a miner.

[iwishforducks]

resource economy will never work btw, not in the current iteration anyhow

>entire game balanced by item economy
>item economy is busted as shit
bros...

hmmmmmmmm......
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm



some food for thought: some random prick can get hold of one of the million silo-linked objects on the station and suck the station dry. this is an extreme example of intentional grief but often i will walk over to a silo-linked object and be unable to print my things not because it's a conscious effort or decision but because either miners aren't mining or someone is sucking up all the resources by printing like... 3 cleavers. and the two solutions are to either cannabilize the walls and tables in your department or to just wait.

our entire game economy is balanced around if someone mines (a very easy task) but their efforts can easily be gimped by... 3 cleavers being printed. obviously we can't just make it so you can print items freely because then people would just print 1000000 cleaver just because they can. methinks a more interesting approach would be to make it so lathes instead queue up items to be lathed and the economy is more based around time to print

or y'know, accept that this is a roleplaying sandbox game by heart and to stop taking item economy so seriously. i don't trust any motherfucker to execute the idea above properly. they'll make it fucking worse than the lathe tax somehow (lol lathe tax)

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Not only that (A large part of the problem with Infinite Metal Engi Borgs was "go engi we need metals" being really fucking lame. Wow, congratulations, now you're forcing them to go something even less of them wanted to be and for a much longer time), but Mining Borgs are also very much weaker. Not just in the "can't fight megas as well" sense but in the fact that their PKA, the only real way a borg has to mine, has less upgrade capacity, and can only fit 2 mods instead of 3.

It's fucked.

It's not even that they can't fight megas, they can if they're skilled enough. They just don't get any benefit for doing so and it's a law three violation unless you're doing it to save humans from harm or because a human ordered you to.

Hence "as well". They're worse at it than a Miner. But the core of the point is that it's irrelevant because they're also just straight up worse at mining. It's not even the lack of a plasmacutter, only being able to fit 2 upgrades on your PKA is killer.

[iwishforducks]

It's not even the lack of a plasmacutter, only being able to fit 2 upgrades on your PKA is killer.

lol wait did they lower the amount of upgrades you can have on your PKA

[carshalash]

It's not even the lack of a plasmacutter, only being able to fit 2 upgrades on your PKA is killer.

lol wait did they lower the amount of upgrades you can have on your PKA

Borg PKA has always been 90%

[Turbonerd]

This won't change much except for odd cases where people use it to exploit. Not sure why some people are mad at this, lol.

[datorangebottle]

This won't change much except for odd cases where people use it to exploit. Not sure why some people are mad at this, lol.

tldr because miners don't mine enough, and it's making miners that mine more important without relieving issues that are keeping actual miner players from mining.

long version:
Most miners are megafauna hunters now. Before this change, engiborgs were able to keep us stocked up on basic materials, at least enough to make another borg. Now they're incapable, and are actually a drain on those same resources they used to restock.
Miner players like myself stopped because of bileworms, the ORM not being usable on lavaland, and the changes to how the items are ordered. I've yet to return to see if the role's tolerable yet.
p.s. miner borgs are the only cyborg besides peacekeeper that can't do their job anywhere near as effectively as a human, because they get obsoleted almost roundstart.

[Striders13]

Miners would rather hunt megafauna because most consider just hitting rocks all shift boring.

except they don't, cause megafauna has been broken for a year and is reliant on rng instead of skill

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Miners would rather hunt megafauna because most consider just hitting rocks all shift boring.

except they don't, cause megafauna has been broken for a year and is reliant on rng instead of skill

Normally I'd say Skill Issue, but you of all people saying this makes me believe it.

[datorangebottle]

Miners would rather hunt megafauna because most consider just hitting rocks all shift boring.

except they don't, cause megafauna has been broken for a year and is reliant on rng instead of skill

...what?

[Armhulen]

Miners would rather hunt megafauna because most consider just hitting rocks all shift boring.

except they don't, cause megafauna has been broken for a year and is reliant on rng instead of skill

PUHLEASE ELABORATE RIGHT FUCKING NOW?????????????????????????????

[Striders13]

Miners would rather hunt megafauna because most consider just hitting rocks all shift boring.

except they don't, cause megafauna has been broken for a year and is reliant on rng instead of skill

PUHLEASE ELABORATE RIGHT FUCKING NOW?????????????????????????????

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/issues/63886

[Armhulen]

Miners would rather hunt megafauna because most consider just hitting rocks all shift boring.

except they don't, cause megafauna has been broken for a year and is reliant on rng instead of skill

PUHLEASE ELABORATE RIGHT FUCKING NOW?????????????????????????????

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/issues/63886

That is downright horrendeous to learn about just now

[Striders13]

Miners would rather hunt megafauna because most consider just hitting rocks all shift boring.

except they don't, cause megafauna has been broken for a year and is reliant on rng instead of skill

PUHLEASE ELABORATE RIGHT FUCKING NOW?????????????????????????????

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/issues/63886

That is downright horrendeous to learn about just now

there were attempts to revert the pr that caused the issue, but got shutdown as always. The creator of the pr never fixed it, so ???????

[Armhulen]

Oh I just talked with the creator of mob ablilities and it was fixed on the 19th of that month so i can close that and say "ha!"

[Armhulen]

(it was fixed in https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/68382 )

[Striders13]

(it was fixed in https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/68382 )

I thought it was, too. It wasnt. Tried fighting bubbles last month, he casted his charge 5 times at once and instantly killed me (I was on full health)

[saprasam]

this pr will change nothing

nobody fixes shit anyways because it’s completely sisyphean and pointless, and the best most people do is just walling it off

[dirk_mcblade]

Good. Fuck em

Fuck who, borgs? This is a station-wide nerf.

Good. Fuck em

[Indie-ana Jones]

I thought it was, too. It wasnt. Tried fighting bubbles last month, he casted his charge 5 times at once and instantly killed me (I was on full health)

As someone who actually plays a lot of mining cyborg and does a lot of megafauna hunting while doing so, I don't think all of the megafauna are bugged. I've been fighting ashdrakes, hierophants and colossuses for a while and they seem to obey their normal rules. It's probably an issue with the charge ability itself, as the a number of mobs also use a nerfed version (lobstrosity and tarantula) and its extremely buggy.

One thing I will note is that Ashdrake's attack cooldowns saw significant buffs to itself. You don't get nearly the same window to attack between the circle fire breath and the arena attack. This can lead to long chains of arena spam, and it sucks.

I'll also note that all megafauna still seem susceptible to a very strange, very inconsistent bug which I just dub as, "going ultra". Essentially, sometimes it seems like they just stop caring about their attack cooldowns and start spamming a bunch of attacks like you describe, however this used to happen before Space's mob abilities PR and it still happens now, albeit very rarely. I have no idea what causes it, and it happens so rarely that I can't really make a bug report about it either.

[conrad]

Good. Fuck em

Fuck who, borgs? This is a station-wide nerf.

Good. Fuck em

Hell yeah now we're talking.

[Striders13]

I thought it was, too. It wasnt. Tried fighting bubbles last month, he casted his charge 5 times at once and instantly killed me (I was on full health)

As someone who actually plays a lot of mining cyborg and does a lot of megafauna hunting while doing so, I don't think all of the megafauna are bugged. I've been fighting ashdrakes, hierophants and colossuses for a while and they seem to obey their normal rules. It's probably an issue with the charge ability itself, as the a number of mobs also use a nerfed version (lobstrosity and tarantula) and its extremely buggy.

One thing I will note is that Ashdrake's attack cooldowns saw significant buffs to itself. You don't get nearly the same window to attack between the circle fire breath and the arena attack. This can lead to long chains of arena spam, and it sucks.

I'll also note that all megafauna still seem susceptible to a very strange, very inconsistent bug which I just dub as, "going ultra". Essentially, sometimes it seems like they just stop caring about their attack cooldowns and start spamming a bunch of attacks like you describe, however this used to happen before Space's mob abilities PR and it still happens now, albeit very rarely. I have no idea what causes it, and it happens so rarely that I can't really make a bug report about it either.

They're all bugged, it's just significantly more noticeable on bubblegum, since he regularly chains his attacks. Also a minor pet peeve is that bubble's attack telegraph no longer matches with where he's actually going, always deviating a tile or two from his destination. I never had this issue before the PR, and I used to frequently hunt fauna before it got bugged to hell.

[oranges]

This won't change much except for odd cases where people use it to exploit. Not sure why some people are mad at this, lol.

they dont know you can grow iron in botany

[dendydoom]

anything that gives those whiny talking toasters utility that i, a superior humanoid lifeform, must rely on needs to be corrected immediately it is an unforgivable affront to the natural order that damns us all if left unchecked

they dont know you can grow iron in botany

don't let powergamers know that botany is the strongest job that can do anything if you have anything resembling an attention span and 2 brain cells to rub together

[dirk_mcblade]

anything that gives those whiny talking toasters utility that i, a superior humanoid lifeform, must rely on needs to be corrected immediately it is an unforgivable affront to the natural order that damns us all if left unchecked

they dont know you can grow iron in botany

don't let powergamers know that botany is the strongest job that can do anything if you have anything resembling an attention span and 2 brain cells to rub together

I can't even get plants to mutate anymore.

[Fikou]

>scare off good faith mining players with overpowered enemies

LOL