LOCKING THE THREAD BECAUSE BAWHOPPEN IS TOO POWERFUL

[datorangebottle]

Bottom post of the previous page:

I was talking with Kendrickorium about it because I thought I had a funny idea. But now we're both conflicted. Help us decide.
For context.

[dirk_mcblade]

The real problem was Zyb giving himself holding cells access round start and then gulaging people as HoP.
The reasons why he wasn't "caught" were because he was randomnaming, making it harder for others to identify him, and that admins aren't usually aware because they don't get pinged when he performs a change of access or are aware of his notes.

He should be appearanced banned to fix the randomnaming.
What I'm proposing is a degradation of zyb to the point that there is no practical way he can interfere with antagonists, yet his compulsion to play the game will keep him around.
A clockwork zybwivcz.
Job ban him to assistant only, force him to have a static name, give him the pacifist trait, and the galactic uncommon trait. Watch him to see if he keeps playing under these circumstances. He can be rehabilitated.

"Encourage him to roleplay by (among other things) removing his ability to talk with other players"
This might be one of the dumbest suggestions I've read on player rehabilitation.

He can still talk to the curator.

[Timberpoes]

I like the idea of keeping Zyb around as admin job content and I would be supportive of it, however Zyb's sec ban was choosing to keep him around and he blew it. That was his chance.

He forgot that I'm one of a handful of proactive headmins that will investigate things on my own initiative. I was originally going to leave it as offhand peanut comments about secbanned Zyb being involved in a HoPcurity incident as a one off. Sometimes shit happens and the Cap did originally ask him to arrest the guy.

But Zyb just had to post in that note appeal. He had to dispute it being overturned. He had to try and bullshit me to my face. Bullshit me despite throwing logs at him where he demonstrably knew the captain told him to release the guy and he gulagged them anyway.

Bullshitting me to my face despite the logs saying otherwise was where I decided it was now worth my time to look into it.

The sec ban was a chance for Zyb to take a break from his past play, try new things and come back as a player more suited to where we want the server to progress.

The irony is, if he'd appealed his sec ban this term I'd probably have given him a chance to bounce back. He's clearly done what we wanted and put in an immense number of hours to non-sec roles.

But he instead opted for this backdoor way to play security via HoP and Cap roles. That's just not acceptable.

And his IC conduct is pretty much the same as it was before, so no character arc evolution. No benefit of the doubt to give, because there is no doubt.

[dirk_mcblade]

Alright I wave the white flag of defeat

[Archie700]

I feel like I started this whole thing by posting the complete logs of him torturing the assistant before, during, and after the captain told him multiple times to let him go or take him to security.
It was basically just giving him rope to hang himself with.

[ekaterina]

What's wrong with disobeying the captain, in an OOC/admin context? It violates no rule.

[dirk_mcblade]

What's wrong with disobeying the captain, in an OOC/admin context? It violates no rule.

I don't think it's about that at this point.

[ekaterina]

Bullshit me despite throwing logs at him where he demonstrably knew the captain told him to release the guy and he gulagged them anyway.

[Archie700]

Bullshit me despite throwing logs at him where he demonstrably knew the captain told him to release the guy and he gulagged them anyway.

I'm more irked by the "tormenting him for over 10 minutes before sending him to gulag instead of bringing him to security and stripping him of his IDs and hand tele before handing him over to security for punishment".

But if the captain tells you to let someone go, you better have a damn good explanation for not doing that.

[AsbestosSniffer]

The real problem was Zyb giving himself holding cells access round start and then gulaging people as HoP.
The reasons why he wasn't "caught" were because he was randomnaming, making it harder for others to identify him, and that admins aren't usually aware because they don't get pinged when he performs a change of access or are aware of his notes.

He should be appearanced banned to fix the randomnaming.
What I'm proposing is a degradation of zyb to the point that there is no practical way he can interfere with antagonists, yet his compulsion to play the game will keep him around.
A clockwork zybwivcz.
Job ban him to assistant only, force him to have a static name, give him the pacifist trait, and the galactic uncommon trait. Watch him to see if he keeps playing under these circumstances. He can be rehabilitated.

"Encourage him to roleplay by (among other things) removing his ability to talk with other players"
This might be one of the dumbest suggestions I've read on player rehabilitation.

Hell's feeling quite cool right now? Is it because I find myself agreeing with Ekaterina? Forced Galactic Uncommon is really the straw that breaks the camel's back.

[dirk_mcblade]

Bullshit me despite throwing logs at him where he demonstrably knew the captain told him to release the guy and he gulagged them anyway.

He was banned from playing sec in a separate rule break. The Captain's order is significant only in the context that zyb carried out security duties while being commanded ICly not to carry out security duties which established him being a non ICly sanctioned hopcurity so he had no IC justification to breach this OOC ban concerning a separate rule violation.
What the headmin is more concerned about though is that he thinks zyb is lying to him when confronted about this though.
That's my reading of it but I also think forcing him tk not be able to talk is a good idea, so I could be a mile off.

[dirk_mcblade]

The real problem was Zyb giving himself holding cells access round start and then gulaging people as HoP.
The reasons why he wasn't "caught" were because he was randomnaming, making it harder for others to identify him, and that admins aren't usually aware because they don't get pinged when he performs a change of access or are aware of his notes.

He should be appearanced banned to fix the randomnaming.
What I'm proposing is a degradation of zyb to the point that there is no practical way he can interfere with antagonists, yet his compulsion to play the game will keep him around.
A clockwork zybwivcz.
Job ban him to assistant only, force him to have a static name, give him the pacifist trait, and the galactic uncommon trait. Watch him to see if he keeps playing under these circumstances. He can be rehabilitated.

"Encourage him to roleplay by (among other things) removing his ability to talk with other players"
This might be one of the dumbest suggestions I've read on player rehabilitation.

Hell's feeling quite cool right now? Is it because I find myself agreeing with Ekaterina? Forced Galactic Uncommon is really the straw that breaks the camel's back.

I think galactic uncommon is the key to all this, but an innovative idea isn't always embraced by the masses.

[Timberpoes]

Bullshit me despite throwing logs at him where he demonstrably knew the captain told him to release the guy and he gulagged them anyway.

He was banned from playing sec in a separate rule break. The Captain's order is significant only in the context that zyb carried out security duties while being commanded ICly not to carry out security duties which established him being a non ICly sanctioned hopcurity so he had no IC justification to breach this OOC ban concerning a separate rule violation.
What the headmin is more concerned about though is that he thinks zyb is lying to him when confronted about this though.
That's my reading of it but I also think forcing him tk not be able to talk is a good idea, so I could be a mile off.

Basically this.

This is gonna be a bit of a lengthy post, but it's a fucking cold Saturday afternoon and I've got a bit of time to spare for a fireside chat about my view of the administration and the place of role bans within the wider context, this incident in general and how this escalated from a note appeal to the ahelper being banned.

So buckle your fuckles boys, we're going Timberstyle.

If you're banned from a role, that doesn't mean to necessarily banned from all mechanics in that role. The game is far more sandboxy than a simple role ban can ever possibly account for, and all we want is evidence that a player knows and can follow the rules and reach the requested standards to overturn a role ban.

Take a hypothetical scenario. Someone that was banned from Engineering probably shouldn't be bwoinked if the SM was delamming and nobody could fix it, and they go up and in good faith properly fix the delam then fuck back off out of the department. Their actions are good faith and they are clearly performing the role to a desired standard of play. (Which was all we wanted in the first place)

If after fixing the SM delam, they started upgrading the SM or went over to the HFR to mix up spicy gasses they'd now be stepping out of good faith and into evading their role ban. But honestly, probably nobody would notice this...

... Unless they fucked it up and did one of the things they got banned for in the first place, like causing a new SM delam that couldn't be fixed or blowing up the HFR. That's likely to attract admin attention and they can consider themselves incredibly lucky if they get away with it despite that.

That's what the essence of a role ban falls down to. The admin thinks you're okay enough to play on our servers in general without 24/7 admin supervision, but that playing a specific role is causing you to end up in situations where you break the rules and you simply cannot stop yourself but to play that role. If they didn't think you were okay enough to play without 24/7 supervision, you'd be server banned.

If you can't control yourself, you should make sure you don't play roles where you may have to cross over into the lane of your role ban.

There are so many different ways to soft-evade all our role bans except Silicon (which is pretty much impossible to evade because it's less of a "role" ban and more of a "species" ban - the only way to play as a silicon is to enter a silicon body, and we can reject role banned players from ever being able to do this at a code level) that it's a test of personal character and honesty more than anything else. Many people pass that test of character and overcome their role bans. Some people fail it.

Applying that same thought process to the scenario at hand, if Zyb had handed over Saprasam to security when asked to arrest, they would have been complying in good faith with their role ban. The Captain's order would have been valid reasoning to arrest the person in question and following it would have been fine despite his sec job ban - up to the point of handing the player over to security forces (if present), otherwise asking the Cap for more advice on what to do.

Actually carrying out the functions of a sec officer independently was breaching the sec ban. Doing whatever he wanted after the Cap told him not to is the equivalent of stepping out of good faith and into evading the role ban. If he wanted the player gulagged anyway, the smart thing would have been to relay the order/request to sec, let them handle it and it's golden. The dumb thing would be to do it himself.

The above applies even moreso when you're the Captain, a sec-banned Captain should be delegating all sec tasks and decisions to other relevant players.

I think everyone was quite happy to leave it as "HoP Fucked Around Then Found Out: The Movie: The Novel: The Video Game: The IC Issue". We all sort of knew Zyb probably breached his sec ban in some way, shape or form. But the key part is, nobody really cared enough to do much else than meme on it. But he did actions that drew attention to it, just like the hypothetical Engi-banned player that tries to "improve" the SM and delams it. They become a blip on the investigative radar.

By disagreeing with the note being overturned, Zyb prompted a more thorough investigation. As is his right to do so as the player that was killed; if there was a valid reason to ban or note then as a headmin it's one of my many responsibilities to investigate and make sure the decision to overturn the note was righteous.

The problem is that in investigating I saw the full extent of Zyb's conduct that shift, which included blatant play in bad-faith against his sec ban. When I saw this, I threw him one last bone to drop the issue because I knew precisely where this was headed if I did a full investigation into whether this was a freak one-off or a regular occurrence.

...

Is my interpretation of that wrong? Because you're making it awfully difficult for me to leave this appeal at just the note being overturned by the banning admin when I'm seeing something that looks like a sec banned player doing sec stuff, then ahelping after their shitty sec play gets them killed.

If you're this ignorant and being this obtuse about what I wrote, I'm genuinely tempted to investigate the incident properly and get some good closure on this. Because from a cursory glance at Archie's logs, it looks like I need to issue you with a server ban for evading your security ban.

Acting in your own capacity as if you were security and getting validly killed as a result clearly wasn't enough of a lesson that finding out often proceeds fucking around if you've got the time to dig your own grave, jump inside and dare me to fill it.

This post was a character test. Zyb's response to that post was a failure to pass that test. His response not only deflected responsibility for his own actions, but actively tried to bullshit me. It was such a failure that in trying to grade it right now, I've actually hit Z minus minus and had to dip into the Greek alphabet all the way down to Ω minus minus, and that is still being charitable.

And thus, half an hour later he found himself banned after a thorough investigation into his most recent 50 shifts (which is basically just the week he played after the note was made, with a few shifts before that) and in true Zybwivcz fashion, he ended up accidentally shooting himself.

[ariever]

Impoverished addict injects access to fuel addiction to the color red

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Impoverished addict injects access to fuel addiction to the color red

oh fuck that's a good one

[TheLoLSwat]

[conrad]

Adminning on easy mode.

[Scriptis]

Giving him a stupid meme ban isn't productive, it's just more toxic.

Again, we treat Zyb like shit, and he treats us like shit. It's not healthy. Break the loop. Send him somewhere else where he can fit in.

[Scriptis]

...

Yeah, I think we're pretty much on the same page here. The only real difference between you and I is that I think community interaction starts the moment a new player joins a game, and that those interactions should become more and more common and sophisticated the longer they play.

Most people don't learn on localhost--you're the exception, not the rule, and even then you still regularly post on the forums (and aren't an infinite source of drama).

My bad for not communicating clearly enough, hope we're sorted on this.

[Kendrickorium]

Bullshit me despite throwing logs at him where he demonstrably knew the captain told him to release the guy and he gulagged them anyway.

He was banned from playing sec in a separate rule break. The Captain's order is significant only in the context that zyb carried out security duties while being commanded ICly not to carry out security duties which established him being a non ICly sanctioned hopcurity so he had no IC justification to breach this OOC ban concerning a separate rule violation.
What the headmin is more concerned about though is that he thinks zyb is lying to him when confronted about this though.
That's my reading of it but I also think forcing him tk not be able to talk is a good idea, so I could be a mile off.

Basically this.

This is gonna be a bit of a lengthy post, but it's a fucking cold Saturday afternoon and I've got a bit of time to spare for a fireside chat about my view of the administration and the place of role bans within the wider context, this incident in general and how this escalated from a note appeal to the ahelper being banned.

So buckle your fuckles boys, we're going Timberstyle.

If you're banned from a role, that doesn't mean to necessarily banned from all mechanics in that role. The game is far more sandboxy than a simple role ban can ever possibly account for, and all we want is evidence that a player knows and can follow the rules and reach the requested standards to overturn a role ban.

Take a hypothetical scenario. Someone that was banned from Engineering probably shouldn't be bwoinked if the SM was delamming and nobody could fix it, and they go up and in good faith properly fix the delam then fuck back off out of the department. Their actions are good faith and they are clearly performing the role to a desired standard of play. (Which was all we wanted in the first place)

If after fixing the SM delam, they started upgrading the SM or went over to the HFR to mix up spicy gasses they'd now be stepping out of good faith and into evading their role ban. But honestly, probably nobody would notice this...

... Unless they fucked it up and did one of the things they got banned for in the first place, like causing a new SM delam that couldn't be fixed or blowing up the HFR. That's likely to attract admin attention and they can consider themselves incredibly lucky if they get away with it despite that.

That's what the essence of a role ban falls down to. The admin thinks you're okay enough to play on our servers in general without 24/7 admin supervision, but that playing a specific role is causing you to end up in situations where you break the rules and you simply cannot stop yourself but to play that role. If they didn't think you were okay enough to play without 24/7 supervision, you'd be server banned.

If you can't control yourself, you should make sure you don't play roles where you may have to cross over into the lane of your role ban.

There are so many different ways to soft-evade all our role bans except Silicon (which is pretty much impossible to evade because it's less of a "role" ban and more of a "species" ban - the only way to play as a silicon is to enter a silicon body, and we can reject role banned players from ever being able to do this at a code level) that it's a test of personal character and honesty more than anything else. Many people pass that test of character and overcome their role bans. Some people fail it.

Applying that same thought process to the scenario at hand, if Zyb had handed over Saprasam to security when asked to arrest, they would have been complying in good faith with their role ban. The Captain's order would have been valid reasoning to arrest the person in question and following it would have been fine despite his sec job ban - up to the point of handing the player over to security forces (if present), otherwise asking the Cap for more advice on what to do.

Actually carrying out the functions of a sec officer independently was breaching the sec ban. Doing whatever he wanted after the Cap told him not to is the equivalent of stepping out of good faith and into evading the role ban. If he wanted the player gulagged anyway, the smart thing would have been to relay the order/request to sec, let them handle it and it's golden. The dumb thing would be to do it himself.

The above applies even moreso when you're the Captain, a sec-banned Captain should be delegating all sec tasks and decisions to other relevant players.

I think everyone was quite happy to leave it as "HoP Fucked Around Then Found Out: The Movie: The Novel: The Video Game: The IC Issue". We all sort of knew Zyb probably breached his sec ban in some way, shape or form. But the key part is, nobody really cared enough to do much else than meme on it. But he did actions that drew attention to it, just like the hypothetical Engi-banned player that tries to "improve" the SM and delams it. They become a blip on the investigative radar.

By disagreeing with the note being overturned, Zyb prompted a more thorough investigation. As is his right to do so as the player that was killed; if there was a valid reason to ban or note then as a headmin it's one of my many responsibilities to investigate and make sure the decision to overturn the note was righteous.

The problem is that in investigating I saw the full extent of Zyb's conduct that shift, which included blatant play in bad-faith against his sec ban. When I saw this, I threw him one last bone to drop the issue because I knew precisely where this was headed if I did a full investigation into whether this was a freak one-off or a regular occurrence.

...

Is my interpretation of that wrong? Because you're making it awfully difficult for me to leave this appeal at just the note being overturned by the banning admin when I'm seeing something that looks like a sec banned player doing sec stuff, then ahelping after their shitty sec play gets them killed.

If you're this ignorant and being this obtuse about what I wrote, I'm genuinely tempted to investigate the incident properly and get some good closure on this. Because from a cursory glance at Archie's logs, it looks like I need to issue you with a server ban for evading your security ban.

Acting in your own capacity as if you were security and getting validly killed as a result clearly wasn't enough of a lesson that finding out often proceeds fucking around if you've got the time to dig your own grave, jump inside and dare me to fill it.

This post was a character test. Zyb's response to that post was a failure to pass that test. His response not only deflected responsibility for his own actions, but actively tried to bullshit me. It was such a failure that in trying to grade it right now, I've actually hit Z minus minus and had to dip into the Greek alphabet all the way down to Ω minus minus, and that is still being charitable.

And thus, half an hour later he found himself banned after a thorough investigation into his most recent 50 shifts (which is basically just the week he played after the note was made, with a few shifts before that) and in true Zybwivcz fashion, he ended up accidentally shooting himself.

[datorangebottle]

What's wrong with disobeying the captain, in an OOC/admin context? It violates no rule.

In this specific context, he's disobeying the captain's sentencing. Even if ordered directly to arrest someone, it's not the HoP's job to sentence the criminal; it's security's. That duty falls to security unless otherwise noted(i.e. the captain saying "do what you want with him"). Taking a hand in sentencing is running afoul of his security jobban by taking on their duties.
If the captain has you arrest someone, you'd better have a good reason to keep them arrested if he later tells you to let them go- ESPECIALLY if you aren't security. At that point, the captain's not even stepping on your toes, you're just being a dick to the captain and possibly the arrested party, depending on how the captain is telling you to deal with them.

[Ziiro]

dig up, stupid

[oranges]

technically if you dig deep enough you will eventually return to the surface, maybe zyb is just testing the theory

[Archie700]

Zyb preemptively torpedoing his own appeal by posting in a pre-appeal peanut

Looking cacogen there

[Bawhoppennn]

Can we lock this until a real appeal happens

[datorangebottle]

Can we lock this until a real appeal happens

Sure. No need to let Zyb continue with his hole digging.