Least controversial map pr nut

[TheRex9001]

Bottom post of the previous page:

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/75039
Rip kilo, I never really liked you so #ripbozo

[Kendrickorium]

i have yet to see anyone provide an argument about why taking out a small map designed to push a low pop amount of players together and replacing it with a much larger one is good for the game

I mean, i honestly love all the maps (tram is questionable), and appreciate the what-must-be HUGE amount of time and effort in making and maintaining them, but like, if you want to axe a map that had a very specific purpose, at least replace it with a map that fills the same role, it doesnt take an experienced game designer to know that.

is there some kind of limit on maps we can have in rotation? why not just add birdshot in?

[Kendrickorium]

He wrote all of that just to give like a single actual argument. I already said this earlier in this thread, that is not enough of an argument to remove kilo specifically.

Clearly reality disagrees with you

no, his statement doesnt fit your reality, so clearly it's wrong, amirite?

[TheFinalPotato]

is there some kind of limit on maps we can have in rotation? why not just add birdshot in?

Yes, eob talks about this in the pr. It is literally 2 out of the 5 paragraphs in the pr body.

[sinfulbliss]

I'm current running off of the (pretty logical, imo) assumption that if I try to make changes to the map that conflict with its core design(being a barely functional derelict) they'll just get stopped. I'd rather not waste my time and effort on that.

i hope you understand that if you can prove that the core design is non-functional (probably after a few months) and demonstrate a better solution that it can be pre-empted.

this is such an insanely tedious ask of someone who doesn’t even know how to map to begin with. map changes and “prove” them over several months? how do you even prove something to be “nonfunctional”? it’s not like things are just nonworking, it’s more like the design just lends itself to them breaking often or creating unpleasant game experiences for various reasons (atmos, powergrid, etc), and suggesting a random player make a PR to change the design (if they could even do that to begin with) is completely impractical

this entire game is random players with zero experience (other than general knowledge of how code works, artistic skills - nothing really specific to DM though) trying to make a difference, as such i do not understand your point what-so-ever. they actually realized they cared about something rather than rant about it in peanuts or whatever. it is not impractical or tedious at all because that is how literally everyone who contributes has started or will invariably end up. things will only happen of your volition if you choose to make it happen, that is the universal constant. otherwise you are left in the dust.

PR justification is not some esoteric art either, you just need to show that you have thought about it or understand the game to a point where you understand that something is intuitively wrong and convince a maintainer (and more importantly: everyone else) that you're in the right. if they don't agree they're required to explain why. if your PR gets closed: you can try another way of balancing it, figure out a better way of proving your point to someone else in the future, or just move on with your life. play bloons or scroll twitter or something if you really can't tolerate a map man. the reason why i say "demonstrate impracticality" is because you are expected to defend your PR in some way, and if you start off strong, you'll end up strong. you can read more on this here https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... st-process and here https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... ur-changes

EDIT: I stumbled across this while reading older replies in coding general:





This was a while ago, but this is someone who I have never heard of putting in the time over something they care about and formatting their data to illustrate a point as to why they didn't agree with a PR. people care a lot about these things and are willing to go through tedium to prove a point.

not everyone is in this community to code/map. it’s ok to be here just to play too. obviously there will be complaints and changes that players like or dislike. saying “cope and scroll twitter” is a completely useless response, why not try to engage with the feedback?

kilo was a better map than birdshot is by far. even EOB implied he liked it better but went with birdshot because it had active maintainers and upkeep. so yeah obviously the players are going to be upset that a worse map replaced a better map to “future proof” it for whatever features might need to be squeezed in or updated in 6 months from now. why wouldn’t they?

[datorangebottle]

I'm current running off of the (pretty logical, imo) assumption that if I try to make changes to the map that conflict with its core design(being a barely functional derelict) they'll just get stopped. I'd rather not waste my time and effort on that.

i hope you understand that if you can prove that the core design is non-functional (probably after a few months) and demonstrate a better solution that it can be pre-empted. this is an open-source project and people do not retain final authority forever (their opinions will be held into account of course), but if a failing is demonstrated and acted upon i don't see why it should not be merged.

i.e.: northstar not having ruins by design is okay because ruins aren't a core function of the game (and should be de-emphasized). however not having features that you need to complete core functions of the base game in a map can be demonstrated to be a failing and should be acted upon.

I think you misunderstood me.
I'm saying that the core design of Birdshot is that it is supposed to look like a derelict held together with duct tape, not that its core design is objectively flawed. I don't want to analyze that philosophy to try and prove that its flawed. My complaints about it are purely from an aesthetic angle, which is a matter of opinion. I also don't want to put in a bunch of effort coming from an angle that's hard to argue from, just to get all that effort canned.

[Wolfmoy]

Kilo deserved it.

[Armhulen]

is there some kind of limit on maps we can have in rotation? why not just add birdshot in?

We do have a maximum amount of maps we can have in rotation because we have to maintain each map in rotation

[vect0r]

is there some kind of limit on maps we can have in rotation? why not just add birdshot in?

We do have a maximum amount of maps we can have in rotation because we have to maintain each map in rotation

Why not just remove it when it's not rotationable anymore?

[TheFinalPotato]

brother that sentence doesn't make any sense, are you talking about removing maps when they fall behind some versioning system, and then readding them when they're past it again?

[Bawhoppennn]

Out of repo map-loading @Cyberboss

[oranges]

He wrote all of that just to give like a single actual argument. I already said this earlier in this thread, that is not enough of an argument to remove kilo specifically.

Clearly reality disagrees with you

no, his statement doesnt fit your reality, so clearly it's wrong, amirite?

yes, that is what having the rank of headcoder implies

[Jacquerel]

brother that sentence doesn't make any sense, are you talking about removing maps when they fall behind some versioning system, and then readding them when they're past it again?

I think they're saying "why don't we just leave Kilo to rot until it stinks and then remove it"

[oranges]

it sounds plausible but the reality is if the map doesn't compile the PR can't get merged because the code integration tests will fail.

and it being working or not is a single code change away so the idea of leaving it to rot is kind of redundant because it's not a tree and it doesn't fall apart slowly over time it just stops working in an instant.

[zxaber]

Should have dropped Meta tbqh famalam

[Archie700]

The mapper who used to maintain it is working on a multi-Z version of this anyway.

[RedBaronFlyer]

I feel like one of the few people that absolutely hate multi-z level stuff since it just makes makes maps more tedious to navigate, splits up the playerbase, and constantly leads to shit like on icebox where the blob 95% of the time sets up at atmos/lower science and takes out all the stairs.

[conrad]

RIP Kilo. You will be missed.

[Indie-ana Jones]

Kilo is bad but there's a reason Birdboat got removed from rotation before. It's not like there was a ton of people who argued to keep it the last time this happened, I remember most people agreeing the map sucked and most people I've seen talk about the new iteration also don't like the map. I don't think the design flaws in the original have been really addressed in this new version (the layout which is central to its identity is ass to play unless you're a nuclear operative or similar). I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up getting axed a while down the line.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

I feel like one of the few people that absolutely hate multi-z level stuff since it just makes makes maps more tedious to navigate, splits up the playerbase, and constantly leads to shit like on icebox where the blob 95% of the time sets up at atmos/lower science and takes out all the stairs.

Apparently the blob doing that is actually the intended gameplay because "If it's using Multi-Z, so should you" even though blob kinda hardcounters Multi-Z by instantly destroying anything dropped onto it.

So, y'know.

[sinfulbliss]

The mapper who used to maintain it is working on a multi-Z version of this anyway.

wait really? what happens when it's done then?

is there a possible world where we have like.. meta/delta/kilo/birdshot/northstar/tram? that would be kind of hilarious

[TheRex9001]

I feel like one of the few people that absolutely hate multi-z level stuff since it just makes makes maps more tedious to navigate, splits up the playerbase, and constantly leads to shit like on icebox where the blob 95% of the time sets up at atmos/lower science and takes out all the stairs.

Just an icebox issue in my experience, northstar has loads of ways to reach blobs no matter the z-level and tram has way more ladders and massive overhangs

[TheRex9001]

The mapper who used to maintain it is working on a multi-Z version of this anyway.

wait really? what happens when it's done then?

is there a possible world where we have like.. meta/delta/kilo/birdshot/northstar/tram? that would be kind of hilarious

If we had some sort of mapping help team for features we would still have kilo……

[sinfulbliss]

Kilo was just... so complete. So polished. It was small and compact and every department somehow managed to fit in a tiny space while retaining 100% of its functionality, it was really quite something. The new chapel addition that put the chapel in a transit tube was really cool too. Birdshot is a strict downgrade, but I guess it'll get faster updates? Whoopie...

[Archie700]

It's known in mapping-general for a while that Okand is (slowly) working on zKilo.



If you have any questions or suggestions, raise them with her.

[TheFinalPotato]

wait kilo has been around for nearly 3 and a half years?
has it really been that long already

we removed it for I think a year or so? because it had a real nasty crash bug linked to shuttle movement

[Archie700]

Unrelated:

[sinfulbliss]

It's known in mapping-general for a while that Okand is (slowly) working on zKilo.



If you have any questions or suggestions, raise them with her.

WHAT

As for why the decision was made to take Birdshot over Kilo, I believe it is better for us to have a map that has room to grow and an active creator

the map has consistently proven to be problematic for new code additions due to its scale, and it receives little maintenance outside of the bare essentials as a result

Is there something I'm missing here... Okand said he'd be free to add the new things that needed to be added.

It's like downgrading from 1080p to 360p because 360p has "room to grow."

[MMMiracles]

As for why the decision was made to take Birdshot over Kilo, I believe it is better for us to have a map that has room to grow and an active creator

the map has consistently proven to be problematic for new code additions due to its scale, and it receives little maintenance outside of the bare essentials as a result

Is there something I'm missing here... Okand said he'd be free to add the new things that needed to be added.

It's like downgrading from 1080p to 360p because 360p has "room to grow."

seems pretty explicit they meant "let old kilo die while i work on the multi-z version in my free time"

[sinfulbliss]

As for why the decision was made to take Birdshot over Kilo, I believe it is better for us to have a map that has room to grow and an active creator

the map has consistently proven to be problematic for new code additions due to its scale, and it receives little maintenance outside of the bare essentials as a result

Is there something I'm missing here... Okand said he'd be free to add the new things that needed to be added.

It's like downgrading from 1080p to 360p because 360p has "room to grow."

seems pretty explicit they meant "let old kilo die while i work on the multi-z version in my free time"

what map will multi Z kilo replace hmmmmmmm?

[MMMiracles]

As for why the decision was made to take Birdshot over Kilo, I believe it is better for us to have a map that has room to grow and an active creator

the map has consistently proven to be problematic for new code additions due to its scale, and it receives little maintenance outside of the bare essentials as a result

Is there something I'm missing here... Okand said he'd be free to add the new things that needed to be added.

It's like downgrading from 1080p to 360p because 360p has "room to grow."

seems pretty explicit they meant "let old kilo die while i work on the multi-z version in my free time"

what map will multi Z kilo replace hmmmmmmm?

runtime

[Bawhoppennn]

As for why the decision was made to take Birdshot over Kilo, I believe it is better for us to have a map that has room to grow and an active creator

the map has consistently proven to be problematic for new code additions due to its scale, and it receives little maintenance outside of the bare essentials as a result

Is there something I'm missing here... Okand said he'd be free to add the new things that needed to be added.

It's like downgrading from 1080p to 360p because 360p has "room to grow."

seems pretty explicit they meant "let old kilo die while i work on the multi-z version in my free time"

OKAND said it not me, time to remove Delta

[Not-Dorsidarf]

As for why the decision was made to take Birdshot over Kilo, I believe it is better for us to have a map that has room to grow and an active creator

the map has consistently proven to be problematic for new code additions due to its scale, and it receives little maintenance outside of the bare essentials as a result

Is there something I'm missing here... Okand said he'd be free to add the new things that needed to be added.

It's like downgrading from 1080p to 360p because 360p has "room to grow."

seems pretty explicit they meant "let old kilo die while i work on the multi-z version in my free time"

what map will multi Z kilo replace hmmmmmmm?

Probbably birdshot, since it has all the same "difficult to keep maintained because its smaller than the game is designed for" problems as kilo so by the time Okand has a multi z kilostation ready (faaaar into the future) map devs will probbably have gotten bored/tired of it the same way they got bored/tired of current kilo

[Thunder11]

...because it doesn't have an atmos-to-SM pipe...

Dw I got u fam https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/75091

[sinfulbliss]

...because it doesn't have an atmos-to-SM pipe...

Dw I got u fam https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/75091

nice bro
now that the map is public im gonna make issue reports

[Misdoubtful]

Birdshot is funny