Detective gets noted for killing subverted borgs peanut

[ekaterina]

Bottom post of the previous page:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=34015

Non-antagonists can do whatever they want to antagonists as per lone antagonists

Make rule 4 matter again!

[WineAllWine]

If you want an example of a not-punishment, that would be a verbal warning instead of a note. If your note wasn't intended to be a punishment and instead a """record of behaviour""" or """record of an incident that happened""", make it expire so at some future point of time it drops off the player's visible record. If you can't justify an expiring note, it's a genuine punishment.

Timber, it already does that. They stay there for record keeping purposes but they're hidden and (as far as I know) we've always told people to either not take into account or completely ignore those notes unless they're hyper relevant/serious (like rule 8 breaks or potential blacklist material).

E: For non-admins, this is what it looks like:

Is this just an excuse to show off you're one of the twelve prettiest girls?

[WineAllWine]

Can we give Archie like a pseudo-admin role or something? Fucking incredibly based, grabbing logs and helping us like this.

While talking with someone about the appeal, I realized I was missing a critical piece of the puzzle, the fight logs between Chimpston and the borgs.
I looked through them and...well...
Draw your conclusions.

Apply to be an admin my dude

[Archie700]

Can we give Archie like a pseudo-admin role or something? Fucking incredibly based, grabbing logs and helping us like this.

While talking with someone about the appeal, I realized I was missing a critical piece of the puzzle, the fight logs between Chimpston and the borgs.
I looked through them and...well...
Draw your conclusions.

Apply to be an admin my dude

NO PLEASE DON'T DRAG ME THERE I DON'T WANNA

[vect0r]

If you want an example of a not-punishment, that would be a verbal warning instead of a note. If your note wasn't intended to be a punishment and instead a """record of behaviour""" or """record of an incident that happened""", make it expire so at some future point of time it drops off the player's visible record. If you can't justify an expiring note, it's a genuine punishment.

Timber, it already does that. They stay there for record keeping purposes but they're hidden and (as far as I know) we've always told people to either not take into account or completely ignore those notes unless they're hyper relevant/serious (like rule 8 breaks or potential blacklist material).

E: For non-admins, this is what it looks like:

Is this just an excuse to show off you're one of the twelve prettiest girls?

No? All my notes are the same color, which is note hidden at all. I might need to double check, but seems like fading is an admin thing.

[Vekter]

No? All my notes are the same color, which is note hidden at all. I might need to double check, but seems like fading is an admin thing.

It is admin facing only. For players, you just see all of your notes with no separation. This was explicitly developed as a method to help admins see just the notes that are still relevant and not older than a certain period. Normally, showing off admin facing only stuff might be considered a breach, but I feel like it's important players understand how we see your notes and what actually factors into a ban for them to better understand how our job works.

Is this just an excuse to show off you're one of the twelve prettiest girls?

I don't need to brag, I already know it.

[vect0r]

No? All my notes are the same color, which is note hidden at all. I might need to double check, but seems like fading is an admin thing.

It is admin facing only. For players, you just see all of your notes with no separation. This was explicitly developed as a method to help admins see just the notes that are still relevant and not older than a certain period. Normally, showing off admin facing only stuff might be considered a breach, but I feel like it's important players understand how we see your notes and what actually factors into a ban for them to better understand how our job works.

Ohh sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were telling Timber how it looks for non-admins, and how for us they faded, but you are just showing us non-admins how it looks for admins.
Sorry for the misunderstanding!

[Timberpoes]

If you want an example of a not-punishment, that would be a verbal warning instead of a note. If your note wasn't intended to be a punishment and instead a """record of behaviour""" or """record of an incident that happened""", make it expire so at some future point of time it drops off the player's visible record. If you can't justify an expiring note, it's a genuine punishment.

Timber, it already does that. They stay there for record keeping purposes but they're hidden and (as far as I know) we've always told people to either not take into account or completely ignore those notes unless they're hyper relevant/serious (like rule 8 breaks or potential blacklist material).

E: For non-admins, this is what it looks like:

"Admins hate it when players try to weasel their way around or out of the rules. Players hate it when admins do the same thing. Don't be pedants."

The in-game panel is the only place this happens. It doesn't represent the most accurate picture of how we access notes in all circumstances.

So many admin decisions are made on the Discord or via reference to tgdb. The Discord bots that can retrieve note histories don't do this. The tgdb pages don't do this. Admins will happily flick through reams of 6+ month old notes and drag them up at some future point behind the curtain.

[Kendrickorium]

If you want an example of a not-punishment, that would be a verbal warning instead of a note. If your note wasn't intended to be a punishment and instead a """record of behaviour""" or """record of an incident that happened""", make it expire so at some future point of time it drops off the player's visible record. If you can't justify an expiring note, it's a genuine punishment.

Timber, it already does that. They stay there for record keeping purposes but they're hidden and (as far as I know) we've always told people to either not take into account or completely ignore those notes unless they're hyper relevant/serious (like rule 8 breaks or potential blacklist material).

E: For non-admins, this is what it looks like:

show the rest of that god damn window

[Cobby]

If you want an example of a not-punishment, that would be a verbal warning instead of a note. If your note wasn't intended to be a punishment and instead a """record of behaviour""" or """record of an incident that happened""", make it expire so at some future point of time it drops off the player's visible record. If you can't justify an expiring note, it's a genuine punishment.

if you do something I verbally warned you not to do, you do it again, and you get punished for it longer than you normally would because I warned you not to do it, by your logic that warning is also a punishment because it directly impacted the result you received.

This is the best example of why notes are NOT a punishment, but i will concede a misuse of the system can certainly make them equivalent. That does NOT mean the system itself is punishing, you are going to be "marked" anyways, the system simply keeps admins honest about how they are painting players and avoids admins with colorful memories having to retell what happened because they wrote the facts already (when used properly). Doubly true when players can appeal these recollections.

Also interesting thread here

Notes have a common sense "expiry", they should not have to be hard deleted to prevent an admin from saying that the note is no longer relevant especially when we can visually differentiate old v recent notes. Headmins should be stepping in and providing some more common sense if that is the case. Unless there is a technical aspect they should be logged especially for ones that have much more grey than "warned - IC in OOC". Despite the thread I linked from ages ago, I am very much against notes being hard deleted simply because there would still be a chance the admin remembers loosely the situation, and I would rather the recollection be contested with "well its not in the note YOU wrote" vs. "well its your word against mine" assuming I am able to have access to the conversation (I wont because they asked about me in adminbus).

I know this happens because of that one Sticky complaint ages ago well he looked like a certified goober because the guy who was complaining was well known to be obnoxious but everypony either gave him verbal warnings or expiring notes so when an admin stepped in the guy had no logged history. I dont remember the specifics but i sincerely doubt anyone actually wanted to perform the activity of verifying claims from either side over the course of many rounds-days-etc. simply because everyone involved believed they couldnt possibly note the guy because its really bad.

On that topic notes easily refer the admin/player to WHEN this interaction occurred so it makes it much more easier to get logs for the situation. Expiring notes that actually get deleted from any sort of viewing is not the play there either.

[Cobby]

Heck the adminpm convo is the actual punishment vs. the note you receive, you cant play the game while having to talk to the admin. You can play the game just fine if you have 1 or 2 or 3 or 4... notes on you so long as you dont break the rules that apply just as much to those without notes as it does to those that do

[vect0r]

Heck the adminpm convo is the actual punishment vs. the note you receive, you cant play the game while having to talk to the admin. You can play the game just fine if you have 1 or 2 or 3 or 4... notes on you so long as you dont break the rules that apply just as much to those without notes as it does to those that do

I would rather talk to an admins and not get a note then play the game and just get a note.

[Cobby]

Heck the adminpm convo is the actual punishment vs. the note you receive, you cant play the game while having to talk to the admin. You can play the game just fine if you have 1 or 2 or 3 or 4... notes on you so long as you dont break the rules that apply just as much to those without notes as it does to those that do

I would rather talk to an admins and not get a note then play the game and just get a note.

Well "talking" is one thing but its really hard for me to take the idea that a singular note is worth more than having an admin spend 20+ minutes down your throat over a relatively benign action in the game seriously from the point of how I treated notes as an admin and how I generally expect other admins to treat them similarly. If youre saying it from the point of how notes have been misused I can understand but the solution there is on the people end and not necessarily on the note system itself (not to say it cant be improved).

Guess it also depends on what you did but reminder I think the whole argument is a bit silly so ive already said im causing a hint of mischief (the semantics are irrelevant, the concept of notes and being liberal/conservative w them is v important though).

[Vekter]

"Admins hate it when players try to weasel their way around or out of the rules. Players hate it when admins do the same thing. Don't be pedants."

The in-game panel is the only place this happens. It doesn't represent the most accurate picture of how we access notes in all circumstances.

So many admin decisions are made on the Discord or via reference to tgdb. The Discord bots that can retrieve note histories don't do this. The tgdb pages don't do this. Admins will happily flick through reams of 6+ month old notes and drag them up at some future point behind the curtain.

I don't know if you've seen it, but I've been suggesting for a while to change that for tgdb/Discord bots. I'll make a stink about it tonight.

show the rest of that god damn window

You're not missing much, there's a couple of IC in OOC notes from before I was an admin and the notes from where I got banned because I was hacked, that's about it.

[Archie700]

Heck the adminpm convo is the actual punishment vs. the note you receive, you cant play the game while having to talk to the admin. You can play the game just fine if you have 1 or 2 or 3 or 4... notes on you so long as you dont break the rules that apply just as much to those without notes as it does to those that do

I would rather talk to an admins and not get a note then play the game and just get a note.

Well "talking" is one thing but its really hard for me to take the idea that a singular note is worth more than having an admin spend 20+ minutes down your throat over a relatively benign action in the game seriously from the point of how I treated notes as an admin and how I generally expect other admins to treat them similarly. If youre saying it from the point of how notes have been misused I can understand but the solution there is on the people end and not necessarily on the note system itself (not to say it cant be improved).

Guess it also depends on what you did but reminder I think the whole argument is a bit silly so ive already said im causing a hint of mischief (the semantics are irrelevant, the concept of notes and being liberal/conservative w them is v important though).

Admins are less likely to search for a conversation that took place a week ago compared to a note placed a month ago.
I think the reason why people consider negative notes punishments is because those notes affect any further punishment down the line.
A 20 minute conversation with the admin sucks, but if it doesn't result in a note it's a bit of a win for the player because a different admin won't waste his time coming through previous adminlogs just to find it if he needs to punish the player for another issue later. The note system is a convenient means of tracking what the player has done before and nowhere is there more relevant in when considering a permanent ban on the player for multiple issues.

[Kendrickorium]

tbh if an admin is combing through over a years worth of your notes chances are you're a shitter that needs to go

[NecromancerAnne]

Chimpston had stunned the borg beforehand and had time to check what the borg was holding. A 10 second window.

09:27:43 ATTACK Chimpston/(Krakaahsje Vitche II) flashed idontcarear/(Nano Transcend) with the flash (NEWHP: 100) (77, 114, 2) Supermatter Engine Room
09:27:49 ATTACK Chimpston/(Krakaahsje Vitche II) flashed idontcarear/(Nano Transcend) with the flash (NEWHP: 100) (77, 114, 2) Supermatter Engine Room
09:27:54 ATTACK Chimpston/(Krakaahsje Vitche II) fired at [reinforced wall] with .38 bullet from Supermatter Engine Room (76, 114, 2) Supermatter Engine Room
09:27:54 ATTACK Chimpston/(Krakaahsje Vitche II) shot idontcarear/(Nano Transcend) with .38 bullet (NEWHP: 75) (76, 114, 2) Supermatter Engine Room

was there a href log to show they checked? I don't believe hrefs are in public logs, are they? Hrefs will probably show exactly what actions they took during this time, but this might have been the point at which they misidentified the weapon they had.

additionally, I wouldn't necessarily call this a smoking gun. A flashing is still an attack, and delayed actions could be to fumble through bags to draw weapons or even reload.You're on a timer with regards to attacking borgs you've stunned. You either follow up or you hope they aren't subverted and draw their stun arm. I don't necessarily beget anyone making a snap decision and getting it wrong for that reason.

[Cobby]

Admins are less likely to search for a conversation that took place a week ago compared to a note placed a month ago.
I think the reason why people consider negative notes punishments is because those notes affect any further punishment down the line.
A 20 minute conversation with the admin sucks, but if it doesn't result in a note it's a bit of a win for the player because a different admin won't waste his time coming through previous adminlogs just to find it if he needs to punish the player for another issue later. The note system is a convenient means of tracking what the player has done before and nowhere is there more relevant in when considering a permanent ban on the player for multiple issues.

Thats the problem, notes should not affect any further punishment down the line compared to a warning (they should be synonymous).

If you get warned by an admin to not do X then that admin sees you doing X, that should come at an equivalent punishment as admin A saw you do X so he notes it then admin B sees you do X. That is exactly what the note system is for and why warnings should be logged.

If you get in trouble for doing X and that punishment is scaled because you have a note for doing Y, people should be rolling their eyes admins included if it doesnt have relevance. It does NOT mean that the note system or that noting for warning-equivalents is problematic, it should be on the onus of players and especially overseeing administrators to make sure the note system is used properly.

That said, notes that do not reflect warnings outside of goodie notes doesnt make sense. Things like "this person played the game in a particular way that I did not like but i did not actually address" is a misuse of the system as well. Notes are/should be logged warnings, and warnings are not a punishment on their own.

[Archie700]

Chimpston had stunned the borg beforehand and had time to check what the borg was holding. A 10 second window.

09:27:43 ATTACK Chimpston/(Krakaahsje Vitche II) flashed idontcarear/(Nano Transcend) with the flash (NEWHP: 100) (77, 114, 2) Supermatter Engine Room
09:27:49 ATTACK Chimpston/(Krakaahsje Vitche II) flashed idontcarear/(Nano Transcend) with the flash (NEWHP: 100) (77, 114, 2) Supermatter Engine Room
09:27:54 ATTACK Chimpston/(Krakaahsje Vitche II) fired at [reinforced wall] with .38 bullet from Supermatter Engine Room (76, 114, 2) Supermatter Engine Room
09:27:54 ATTACK Chimpston/(Krakaahsje Vitche II) shot idontcarear/(Nano Transcend) with .38 bullet (NEWHP: 75) (76, 114, 2) Supermatter Engine Room

was there a href log to show they checked? I don't believe hrefs are in public logs, are they? Hrefs will probably show exactly what actions they took during this time, but this might have been the point at which they misidentified the weapon they had.

additionally, I wouldn't necessarily call this a smoking gun. A flashing is still an attack, and delayed actions could be to fumble through bags to draw weapons or even reload.You're on a timer with regards to attacking borgs you've stunned. You either follow up or you hope they aren't subverted and draw their stun arm. I don't necessarily beget anyone making a snap decision and getting it wrong for that reason.

I could see it that way, I don't have access to those logs so I believe it's up to the headmin team for that decision.

Admins are less likely to search for a conversation that took place a week ago compared to a note placed a month ago.
I think the reason why people consider negative notes punishments is because those notes affect any further punishment down the line.
A 20 minute conversation with the admin sucks, but if it doesn't result in a note it's a bit of a win for the player because a different admin won't waste his time coming through previous adminlogs just to find it if he needs to punish the player for another issue later. The note system is a convenient means of tracking what the player has done before and nowhere is there more relevant in when considering a permanent ban on the player for multiple issues.

Thats the problem, notes should not affect any further punishment down the line compared to a warning (they should be synonymous).

If you get warned by an admin to not do X then that admin sees you doing X, that should come at an equivalent punishment as admin A saw you do X so he notes it then admin B sees you do X. That is exactly what the note system is for and why warnings should be logged.

If you get in trouble for doing X and that punishment is scaled because you have a note for doing Y, people should be rolling their eyes admins included if it doesnt have relevance. It does NOT mean that the note system or that noting for warning-equivalents is problematic, it should be on the onus of players and especially overseeing administrators to make sure the note system is used properly.

That said, notes that do not reflect warnings outside of goodie notes doesnt make sense. Things like "this person played the game in a particular way that I did not like but i did not actually address" is a misuse of the system as well. Notes are/should be logged warnings, and warnings are not a punishment on their own.

.I believe that should be the general behavior of notes.

[NecromancerAnne]

I could see it that way, I don't have access to those logs so I believe it's up to the headmin team for that decision.

One of the best pieces of advice I got for log diving was checking hrefs, since not everything is logged naturally, but you can find various procs in there that aren't logged in other ways. You do sort of need to know what you're looking for.

[Cobby]

if you have to look in href its literally over, the most awful experience.

[mrmelbert]

If you want an example of a not-punishment, that would be a verbal warning instead of a note.

If a note is a punishment a verbal warning is a punishment, they serve the same purpose ("stop doing this behavior")

[conrad]

If you want an example of a not-punishment, that would be a verbal warning instead of a note.

If a note is a punishment a verbal warning is a punishment, they serve the same purpose ("stop doing this behavior")

I respectfully disagree. It's unfeasible to keep track of tickets as it is to keep track of notes.

[iwishforducks]

So many admin decisions are made on the Discord or via reference to tgdb. The Discord bots that can retrieve note histories don't do this. The tgdb pages don't do this. Admins will happily flick through reams of 6+ month old notes and drag them up at some future point behind the curtain.

can the discord bot and tgdb please do something the equivalent of this? i only realized how dumb it was in retrospect looking back a couple months ago and i went from "oh notes expire on the user panel" to "well also most of the time we don't even use the in-game notes system we just look at tgdb and the discord bot" and there's been more than a couple handful of appeals that show this, even if the mistake is quickly corrected

[mrmelbert]

I respectfully disagree. It's unfeasible to keep track of tickets as it is to keep track of notes.

This is the point of my statement

[ekaterina]

If you want an example of a not-punishment, that would be a verbal warning instead of a note.

If a note is a punishment a verbal warning is a punishment, they serve the same purpose ("stop doing this behavior")

Yeah, a verbal warning is a punishment. Did anyone say it wasn't? It's just the lightest punishment possible.

[mrmelbert]

Yeah, a verbal warning is a punishment. Did anyone say it wasn't? It's just the lightest punishment possible.

[ekaterina]

Yeah, a verbal warning is a punishment. Did anyone say it wasn't? It's just the lightest punishment possible.

You're right that somebody said it wasn't. You're not right that it isn't. Timberpoes was wrong.
Many organisations around the world list a form of verbal warning as the lowest form of disciplinary measure. The United States' Armed Forces are one example.

[sinfulbliss]

If you want an example of a not-punishment, that would be a verbal warning instead of a note.

If a note is a punishment a verbal warning is a punishment, they serve the same purpose ("stop doing this behavior")

A verbal warning disappears from the face of the earth after the round ends. A note stays forever and influences all future tickets, bwoinks, and bans, having a chance to make them harsher. So like duh one is a punishment and the other isn’t man.

Multiple examples were provided of this. This argument was also like the fundamental one made ad nauseum so I hate to say it over again for the bazillionth time.

Also you and Ekaterina agree so you’re ontologically wrong and should take this as an opportunity to reflect.

[WineAllWine]

Also you and Ekaterina agree so you’re ontologically wrong and should take this as an opportunity to reflect.

based.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

If you want an example of a not-punishment, that would be a verbal warning instead of a note. If your note wasn't intended to be a punishment and instead a """record of behaviour""" or """record of an incident that happened""", make it expire so at some future point of time it drops off the player's visible record. If you can't justify an expiring note, it's a genuine punishment.

Timber, it already does that. They stay there for record keeping purposes but they're hidden and (as far as I know) we've always told people to either not take into account or completely ignore those notes unless they're hyper relevant/serious (like rule 8 breaks or potential blacklist material).

E: For non-admins, this is what it looks like:

this would be more reassuring if five posts above this an admin trainer, the role models for the admin team who shape admin culture by teaching new admins, wasn't saying "Yeah I always open the hidden notes and read them all to check if they might apply to the current situation"

[BlueMemesauce]

If you want an example of a not-punishment, that would be a verbal warning instead of a note.

If a note is a punishment a verbal warning is a punishment, they serve the same purpose ("stop doing this behavior")

A verbal warning disappears from the face of the earth after the round ends. A note stays forever and influences all future tickets, bwoinks, and bans, having a chance to make them harsher. So like duh one is a punishment and the other isn’t man.

Multiple examples were provided of this. This argument was also like the fundamental one made ad nauseum so I hate to say it over again for the bazillionth time.

Also you and Ekaterina agree so you’re ontologically wrong and should take this as an opportunity to reflect.

They don't, ahelp logs are saved forever. You can go onto that one website i forgot the name of and it shows you all your ahelps from years ago.

[WineAllWine]

They don't, ahelp logs are saved forever. You can go onto that one website i forgot the name of and it shows you all your ahelps from years ago.

https://bus.moth.fans/ is what most people use nowadays.

[Vekter]

If you want an example of a not-punishment, that would be a verbal warning instead of a note. If your note wasn't intended to be a punishment and instead a """record of behaviour""" or """record of an incident that happened""", make it expire so at some future point of time it drops off the player's visible record. If you can't justify an expiring note, it's a genuine punishment.

Timber, it already does that. They stay there for record keeping purposes but they're hidden and (as far as I know) we've always told people to either not take into account or completely ignore those notes unless they're hyper relevant/serious (like rule 8 breaks or potential blacklist material).

E: For non-admins, this is what it looks like:

this would be more reassuring if five posts above this an admin trainer, the role models for the admin team who shape admin culture by teaching new admins, wasn't saying "Yeah I always open the hidden notes and read them all to check if they might apply to the current situation"

Wine is referring to things like rule 8 breaks that are serious violations of conduct, not just everyday greytiding/over-escalation stuff. Obviously if you have a history of being a creepy fuck that's going to stick with you, but when I talk about notes after a certain date not applying, I'm talking about less serious infractions.

[Epoc]

On the other, as I've said many times before, notes aren't a punishment. They're just a record of discussion.

Immediately followed by using note frequency as a measure of behavior, not "records of discussion":



Saying they're not a punishment and then instantly turning around and using them as validation for someone being banned is dishonest, and frankly, sucks huge dong.

[Vekter]

On the other, as I've said many times before, notes aren't a punishment. They're just a record of discussion.

Immediately followed by using note frequency as a measure of behavior, not "records of discussion":



Saying they're not a punishment and then instantly turning around and using them as validation for someone being banned is dishonest, and frankly, sucks huge dong.

That's not why he was banned. He was banned for mulitkeying, aka "making a new account to play on and pretend to be a new player in order to circumvent a ban or their note history". I'm telling him that, if he continues the same behavior he was getting notes for (which was roughly the same thing multiple times, though I'm not going to post his notes), that he could be banned again in the future.

In other words,

note ≠ ban
however,
LOTS of notes of the same action repeated over and over again = ban