Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
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- The Wrench
- Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:06 am
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Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
Generally, is it better to punish bad faith Unger Bunga, players with in character means, al la dunking on them/ throwing them in the gulag, or is it better to bwoink/Note/Ban them? Discuss
Jonathan Gupta wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:32 pm all you godamn do is whine and complain come up with ideas, stop bitching for christs sake.
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
IC but if they are really bad OOC.
- Cheshify
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
Here's the deal, you can kill a "shitter" ICly and that will inconvenience them for one round, maybe, since they could just go to another server when round removed. However, nothing will actually change, no lesson will be learned. "Shitter" play needs to be corrected OOCly by an admin clearly laying out what needs to change. Either they shape up, or they end up getting perma'd, but at least they're given the chance to change.
If you just handle them ICly, the only thing that'll change is player resentment towards them.
If you just handle them ICly, the only thing that'll change is player resentment towards them.
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
Exclusively ooc, since punishing them IC is not a punishment, it's what they want. If you kill them, after a fight they get everything they wanted, a fight, a chance to roll for midround, and a chance to alttab and wait for next antag roll (new round). You have no way to punish shitters IC that doesn't validate their playstyle, and by attacking them you give them IC reason to commit to their favorite activity that is fighting.
Silicon main, enough said
Tell me how badly I fucked up here: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=32575
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- conrad
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
It depends on the level of shittery. There's a fine line between being an asshole and being a dick. (let's call that line the perineum)
Someone being an asshole, like a captain trying to name the station "centcom is retarded", a micromanaging CMO demoting a chemist for messing up building a factory, a seccie going around arresting people fnr other than powertripping, that to me deserves a visit from old Smite button or an ERT friend whose job is to replace the offending idiot. I like ERTs.
Someone going around being a dick, that is to say, either breaking actual rules or generating conflict in stupid ways, like an AI asking to be purged, or a HoS escalating to lethals and not doing due process (i.e.: not taking people without proof of being antag to medbay) or some dumb assistant releasing a tot from perma, that I'd go ahead and bwoink.
The name of the game is: when generating fun at someone's expense, is that fun only for you? If so, you're a dick. If it's for you and people around you, you're an asshole. If it's for everyone, including the person you're taking the piss at...then it's an event and I endorse it.
Someone being an asshole, like a captain trying to name the station "centcom is retarded", a micromanaging CMO demoting a chemist for messing up building a factory, a seccie going around arresting people fnr other than powertripping, that to me deserves a visit from old Smite button or an ERT friend whose job is to replace the offending idiot. I like ERTs.
Someone going around being a dick, that is to say, either breaking actual rules or generating conflict in stupid ways, like an AI asking to be purged, or a HoS escalating to lethals and not doing due process (i.e.: not taking people without proof of being antag to medbay) or some dumb assistant releasing a tot from perma, that I'd go ahead and bwoink.
The name of the game is: when generating fun at someone's expense, is that fun only for you? If so, you're a dick. If it's for you and people around you, you're an asshole. If it's for everyone, including the person you're taking the piss at...then it's an event and I endorse it.
I normally go by Ricky. Tell me how'd I do here. ⋆ 𝒯𝒶𝓀𝒾𝓃𝑔 𝒶 𝓈𝒶𝒷𝒶𝓉𝒾𝒸𝒶𝓁. ⋆
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Armhulen wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 11:08 pmThe Spessmen Times wrote:Prohibition agent Sam Salamander bragged that he could find a metacord in any server in under 30 minutes. In Bagil it took him 21 minutes. In Sybil 17 minutes, and Manuel just 11 minutes. But Terry set the record of 35 seconds. Sam asked an assistant on the arrivals shuttle where to get a discord invite, and the assistant linked him one.
RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:52 pmIt would somehow manage to pick Birdshot Station for headmin if we did that
- iwishforducks
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
“or”? haven’t you guys heard of “and”?
im gay (and also play the moth “bugger”)
- TheRex9001
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
If you see a shitter just dont interact with em or do and try to rehabilitate em
- Cheshify
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
Kubi put it pretty well, you can't really ICly punish a "shitter"
- blackdav123
- Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2021 10:04 pm
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
gulag is the main way to ICly punish a shitter because you force them to 1. actually do work (they are allergic to this) and 2. be away from other players for a bit
99% of the time the shitter would rather ghost than do 200 points of mining work. The other 1% of the time they'll come back up and start causing problems again which results in an instant second gulagging, usually causing them to kill themselves.
If you havent tried this on someone causing problems for fun do it and see how fast things change. I remember doing this to one guy three rounds in a row and they were completely reformed by the end.
Weston Echard on Sybil
- conrad
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
Might be an unpopular opinion, but if a situation would call for a gulag, it would probably be better served with an hourban.
You gulag someone, they just gonna server hop.
You gulag someone, they just gonna server hop.
I normally go by Ricky. Tell me how'd I do here. ⋆ 𝒯𝒶𝓀𝒾𝓃𝑔 𝒶 𝓈𝒶𝒷𝒶𝓉𝒾𝒸𝒶𝓁. ⋆
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Armhulen wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 11:08 pmThe Spessmen Times wrote:Prohibition agent Sam Salamander bragged that he could find a metacord in any server in under 30 minutes. In Bagil it took him 21 minutes. In Sybil 17 minutes, and Manuel just 11 minutes. But Terry set the record of 35 seconds. Sam asked an assistant on the arrivals shuttle where to get a discord invite, and the assistant linked him one.
RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:52 pmIt would somehow manage to pick Birdshot Station for headmin if we did that
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
To gulag someone you need to stun them, which means engage in a fight with them, which means that they are probably going to try to fight you.blackdav123 wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 4:54 pmgulag is the main way to ICly punish a shitter because you force them to 1. actually do work (they are allergic to this) and 2. be away from other players for a bit
99% of the time the shitter would rather ghost than do 200 points of mining work. The other 1% of the time they'll come back up and start causing problems again which results in an instant second gulagging, usually causing them to kill themselves.
If you havent tried this on someone causing problems for fun do it and see how fast things change. I remember doing this to one guy three rounds in a row and they were completely reformed by the end.
Silicon main, enough said
Tell me how badly I fucked up here: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=32575
Tell me how badly I fucked up here: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=32575
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
I don't really know what the hour ban is supposed to achieve.
► Show Spoiler
- conrad
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
It prevents them from server hopping. Bans work across servers.
oooOooOOoO conspiracy
Yes. Also, the hour ban guarantees they'll "remain gulaged", in a manner of speaking.Boot wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 5:48 pm I've seen people ghost or ssd or just hang out in the gulag until someone else comes down so they can steal their mats. If they dip out to play a different game or eat or just to sit out the shift then the hour ban really doesn't do anything because by the time they are ready to get back into the game the ban will have expired. Do you actually see people server hopping once they get gulagged on the backend?
I normally go by Ricky. Tell me how'd I do here. ⋆ 𝒯𝒶𝓀𝒾𝓃𝑔 𝒶 𝓈𝒶𝒷𝒶𝓉𝒾𝒸𝒶𝓁. ⋆
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Armhulen wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 11:08 pmThe Spessmen Times wrote:Prohibition agent Sam Salamander bragged that he could find a metacord in any server in under 30 minutes. In Bagil it took him 21 minutes. In Sybil 17 minutes, and Manuel just 11 minutes. But Terry set the record of 35 seconds. Sam asked an assistant on the arrivals shuttle where to get a discord invite, and the assistant linked him one.
RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:52 pmIt would somehow manage to pick Birdshot Station for headmin if we did that
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
Would you be interested in seeing the gulag change to just be a 1 hour player applied ban then?conrad wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 5:54 pmIt prevents them from server hopping. Bans work across servers.oooOooOOoO conspiracyYes. Also, the hour ban guarantees they'll "remain gulaged", in a manner of speaking.Boot wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 5:48 pm I've seen people ghost or ssd or just hang out in the gulag until someone else comes down so they can steal their mats. If they dip out to play a different game or eat or just to sit out the shift then the hour ban really doesn't do anything because by the time they are ready to get back into the game the ban will have expired. Do you actually see people server hopping once they get gulagged on the backend?
- conrad
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
I normally go by Ricky. Tell me how'd I do here. ⋆ 𝒯𝒶𝓀𝒾𝓃𝑔 𝒶 𝓈𝒶𝒷𝒶𝓉𝒾𝒸𝒶𝓁. ⋆
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Armhulen wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 11:08 pmThe Spessmen Times wrote:Prohibition agent Sam Salamander bragged that he could find a metacord in any server in under 30 minutes. In Bagil it took him 21 minutes. In Sybil 17 minutes, and Manuel just 11 minutes. But Terry set the record of 35 seconds. Sam asked an assistant on the arrivals shuttle where to get a discord invite, and the assistant linked him one.
RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:52 pmIt would somehow manage to pick Birdshot Station for headmin if we did that
- Cheshify
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
See you say gulags are similar to one hour applied bans but that's not the case. Bans apply to every server, they prevent play of any kind, and most importantly: Bans happen after an admin talks to the person about their behaviour to help them explain what's wrong and how to improve.
- sinfulbliss
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
I am going to pull the classic trope of calling the question bad. Better for what?
Better for: preventing the shitter from coming back and doing the same thing again? OOC because only admins can do that.
Better for: how you will feel after, and maintaining a cohesive IC experience? IC.
Better for: preventing the shitter from coming back and doing the same thing again? OOC because only admins can do that.
Better for: how you will feel after, and maintaining a cohesive IC experience? IC.
I've heard you say this before but it's not accurate. They don't want to be punished/killed IC, what? No shitters or players want this to happen. They want to kill you to make someone else mad, get a rise out of people, and win the conflict. Most shitters bitch and moan to no end when the IC conflict doesn't go their way, you are most certainly not giving them what they want by killing them IC.Kubisopplay wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 4:30 pm Exclusively ooc, since punishing them IC is not a punishment, it's what they want. If you kill them, after a fight they get everything they wanted, a fight, a chance to roll for midround, and a chance to alttab and wait for next antag roll (new round).
Spoiler:
- Kendrickorium
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
easy fix for shitters:
have an admin send them to lavaland, tell them to ONLY MINE for the duration of the shift or else they are getting a weekban
watch how many of them just ghost
have an admin send them to lavaland, tell them to ONLY MINE for the duration of the shift or else they are getting a weekban
watch how many of them just ghost
- sinfulbliss
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
Ahelping from a player-facing perspective resolves absolutely nothing, and ironically the greatest punishment is to yourself. First let’s think about the requirements to ahelp in the first place. For starters, you have to have been wronged or griefed in some way, that left you upset enough to call for support beyond the game. Second you have to be disengaged with the person who griefed you, with the game as a whole actually — somewhere you can type out just how you were griefed and any details you remember. Third, you have to be willing to dedicate the entire rest of the round, and possibly some of the round after that, to discussing the situation with the admin and giving details.
All the while the round is STILL ongoing, people are having fun playing, and you, meanwhile, are sitting there essentially self-round-removed, malding, perhaps superficially engaging with the game but more just waiting for the next bwoink to answer. After you have underwent this arduous, unfun process, you will most likely be rewarded with a simple “handled,” or perhaps the ahelp just closed from roundend. Congratulations, you have managed to waste the entire round being frustrated instead of playing the videogame, and your reward was broadcasting to the other player in bright orange text “HEY!! IM MALDING!!”
That fucking SUCKS man. How anyone could recommend this over bashing the griefer’s head against a wall a dozen times until they’re unconscious, is completely beyond me, but it’s likely only admins (who can literally check what happened to the player they ahelped) or people who are conflict-averse IC.
As such I believe it best to ALWAYS seek IC resolution first, and ahelp either after or if you’re completely locked out of retaliation (dead, RR’d, perma gulagged etc).
All the while the round is STILL ongoing, people are having fun playing, and you, meanwhile, are sitting there essentially self-round-removed, malding, perhaps superficially engaging with the game but more just waiting for the next bwoink to answer. After you have underwent this arduous, unfun process, you will most likely be rewarded with a simple “handled,” or perhaps the ahelp just closed from roundend. Congratulations, you have managed to waste the entire round being frustrated instead of playing the videogame, and your reward was broadcasting to the other player in bright orange text “HEY!! IM MALDING!!”
That fucking SUCKS man. How anyone could recommend this over bashing the griefer’s head against a wall a dozen times until they’re unconscious, is completely beyond me, but it’s likely only admins (who can literally check what happened to the player they ahelped) or people who are conflict-averse IC.
As such I believe it best to ALWAYS seek IC resolution first, and ahelp either after or if you’re completely locked out of retaliation (dead, RR’d, perma gulagged etc).
Spoiler:
- vect0r
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
I think admins are just saying that OOC is better because banning griefing shitters is their version of of spamming a shitters head into a table and killing them, but for admins.sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 8:58 pm Ahelping from a player-facing perspective resolves absolutely nothing, and ironically the greatest punishment is to yourself. First let’s think about the requirements to ahelp in the first place. For starters, you have to have been wronged or griefed in some way, that left you upset enough to call for support beyond the game. Second you have to be disengaged with the person who griefed you, with the game as a whole actually — somewhere you can type out just how you were griefed and any details you remember. Third, you have to be willing to dedicate the entire rest of the round, and possibly some of the round after that, to discussing the situation with the admin and giving details.
All the while the round is STILL ongoing, people are having fun playing, and you, meanwhile, are sitting there essentially self-round-removed, malding, perhaps superficially engaging with the game but more just waiting for the next bwoink to answer. After you have underwent this arduous, unfun process, you will most likely be rewarded with a simple “handled,” or perhaps the ahelp just closed from roundend. Congratulations, you have managed to waste the entire round being frustrated instead of playing the videogame, and your reward was broadcasting to the other player in bright orange text “HEY!! IM MALDING!!”
That fucking SUCKS man. How anyone could recommend this over bashing the griefer’s head against a wall a dozen times until they’re unconscious, is completely beyond me, but it’s likely only admins (who can literally check what happened to the player they ahelped) or people who are conflict-averse IC.
As such I believe it best to ALWAYS seek IC resolution first, and ahelp either after or if you’re completely locked out of retaliation IC (dead, RR’d, perma gulagged etc).
- Kendrickorium
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
yeah lets let players ban other players for an hourBoot wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 5:56 pmWould you be interested in seeing the gulag change to just be a 1 hour player applied ban then?conrad wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 5:54 pmIt prevents them from server hopping. Bans work across servers.oooOooOOoO conspiracyYes. Also, the hour ban guarantees they'll "remain gulaged", in a manner of speaking.Boot wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 5:48 pm I've seen people ghost or ssd or just hang out in the gulag until someone else comes down so they can steal their mats. If they dip out to play a different game or eat or just to sit out the shift then the hour ban really doesn't do anything because by the time they are ready to get back into the game the ban will have expired. Do you actually see people server hopping once they get gulagged on the backend?
surely this wont go horribly horribly wrong
- Kendrickorium
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
you ahelp it and move on with your life, sinfulsinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 8:58 pm Ahelping from a player-facing perspective resolves absolutely nothing, and ironically the greatest punishment is to yourself. First let’s think about the requirements to ahelp in the first place. For starters, you have to have been wronged or griefed in some way, that left you upset enough to call for support beyond the game. Second you have to be disengaged with the person who griefed you, with the game as a whole actually — somewhere you can type out just how you were griefed and any details you remember. Third, you have to be willing to dedicate the entire rest of the round, and possibly some of the round after that, to discussing the situation with the admin and giving details.
All the while the round is STILL ongoing, people are having fun playing, and you, meanwhile, are sitting there essentially self-round-removed, malding, perhaps superficially engaging with the game but more just waiting for the next bwoink to answer. After you have underwent this arduous, unfun process, you will most likely be rewarded with a simple “handled,” or perhaps the ahelp just closed from roundend. Congratulations, you have managed to waste the entire round being frustrated instead of playing the videogame, and your reward was broadcasting to the other player in bright orange text “HEY!! IM MALDING!!”
That fucking SUCKS man. How anyone could recommend this over bashing the griefer’s head against a wall a dozen times until they’re unconscious, is completely beyond me, but it’s likely only admins (who can literally check what happened to the player they ahelped) or people who are conflict-averse IC.
As such I believe it best to ALWAYS seek IC resolution first, and ahelp either after or if you’re completely locked out of retaliation (dead, RR’d, perma gulagged etc).
- sinfulbliss
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
Exactly, they get to witness the whole process in action, from report to punishment. They get the satisfaction of having made the servers a better place and meted out justice accordingly. Meanwhile the player gets a “handled.” Were they permabanned? Were they let off with a kiss and a slap on the ass? You’re not privy to that information, prole. Thank you for your participation, and please come again.
Spoiler:
- conrad
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
Thank you for elaborating my confusion into words.Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 9:03 pmyeah lets let players ban other players for an hourBoot wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 5:56 pmWould you be interested in seeing the gulag change to just be a 1 hour player applied ban then?conrad wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 5:54 pmIt prevents them from server hopping. Bans work across servers.oooOooOOoO conspiracyYes. Also, the hour ban guarantees they'll "remain gulaged", in a manner of speaking.Boot wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 5:48 pm I've seen people ghost or ssd or just hang out in the gulag until someone else comes down so they can steal their mats. If they dip out to play a different game or eat or just to sit out the shift then the hour ban really doesn't do anything because by the time they are ready to get back into the game the ban will have expired. Do you actually see people server hopping once they get gulagged on the backend?
surely this wont go horribly horribly wrong
I normally go by Ricky. Tell me how'd I do here. ⋆ 𝒯𝒶𝓀𝒾𝓃𝑔 𝒶 𝓈𝒶𝒷𝒶𝓉𝒾𝒸𝒶𝓁. ⋆
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Armhulen wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 11:08 pmThe Spessmen Times wrote:Prohibition agent Sam Salamander bragged that he could find a metacord in any server in under 30 minutes. In Bagil it took him 21 minutes. In Sybil 17 minutes, and Manuel just 11 minutes. But Terry set the record of 35 seconds. Sam asked an assistant on the arrivals shuttle where to get a discord invite, and the assistant linked him one.
RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:52 pmIt would somehow manage to pick Birdshot Station for headmin if we did that
- Misdoubtful
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
IC consequences and OOC punishments are pretty separate, but its not like they can't both exist for actions that occur. That being said, they are very distinct, so is a good idea to use one in place of another?
Based. I used to encourage people to say, bring people they really would have been better off not killing to medical and get them healed and I'd note them for it and that they were willing to be accountable and make things right instead of ban them. Haven't done that specifically in like four years though.Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 8:52 pm easy fix for shitters:
have an admin send them to lavaland, tell them to ONLY MINE for the duration of the shift or else they are getting a weekban
watch how many of them just ghost
Hugs
- iwishforducks
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
*scratches off “medicated sinful post” on my bingo card*sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 7:55 pm I am going to pull the classic trope of calling the question bad. Better for what?
Better for: preventing the shitter from coming back and doing the same thing again? OOC because only admins can do that.
Better for: how you will feel after, and maintaining a cohesive IC experience? IC.
well put. admins should be ensuring the shitters don’t shit again but if players are discouraged from interacting with the round ICly then it directly hurts the goodness of the round. thinking back to this month old appeal that still hasn’t been resolved:
… not to single out, obviously. but it appears a lot of admins here hold similar sentiments which makes meTicket from an admin wrote: Please dont handle things in character and request admin intervention. Either deal with it yourself or let admins handle it.
with that said, there should be no IC expectation that players have to put up with shit. but it’s really fucking lame to tell players that they have to drop everything and ahelp. being forced to take OOC interactions and devoting your time to answering tickets and typing paragraphs just means you’re putting your time elsewhere. which if i was griefing someone and forcing them through red tape i’d call that a victory
im gay (and also play the moth “bugger”)
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
this is why i support telling players what type of punishment was given out. it creates a somewhat good feeling on the player's end and makes them more likely to ahelp shit in the future because they know something will get done about it. it also helps players understand what is rule breaking and what is not. only problem is it can lead to people crying when it's not harsh enough like the currently open complaint: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=34073sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 9:14 pmExactly, they get to witness the whole process in action, from report to punishment. They get the satisfaction of having made the servers a better place and meted out justice accordingly. Meanwhile the player gets a “handled.” Were they permabanned? Were they let off with a kiss and a slap on the ass? You’re not privy to that information, prole. Thank you for your participation, and please come again.
Also it's possible some admins consider it "personal info" to reveal that someone got banned but that's ridiculous imo, ban appeals and permabans are public so if they choose to appeal their "personal" info will be revealed anyway.
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
I've found breaking legs is a bigger deterrent than a few minutes tabbed out.
Your punishment must be pragmatic.
Your punishment must be pragmatic.
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
a lot of players usually say "nothing ever happens when i ahelp" because they feel they're wasting their time unless they see the player disappear next roundBeeSting12 wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 9:44 pmthis is why i support telling players what type of punishment was given out. it creates a somewhat good feeling on the player's end and makes them more likely to ahelp shit in the future because they know something will get done about it. it also helps players understand what is rule breaking and what is not. only problem is it can lead to people crying when it's not harsh enough like the currently open complaint: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=34073sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 9:14 pmExactly, they get to witness the whole process in action, from report to punishment. They get the satisfaction of having made the servers a better place and meted out justice accordingly. Meanwhile the player gets a “handled.” Were they permabanned? Were they let off with a kiss and a slap on the ass? You’re not privy to that information, prole. Thank you for your participation, and please come again.
Also it's possible some admins consider it "personal info" to reveal that someone got banned but that's ridiculous imo, ban appeals and permabans are public so if they choose to appeal their "personal" info will be revealed anyway.
maybe instead of admins saying "handled" all the time they could say something like, I don't know, "Thanks for your ahelp, this has been helpful"
that'll make them at least think that ahelping was, you know, helpful to get someone on their radar at the very least
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
The first point is a solid one, but I would say that if the player disagrees with the punishment, it’s a matter of saying “sorry that’s my ruling” then closing the ahelp. Any related complaints in forums will be instantly deemed invalid and closed like that one was.BeeSting12 wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 9:44 pm this is why i support telling players what type of punishment was given out. it creates a somewhat good feeling on the player's end and makes them more likely to ahelp shit in the future because they know something will get done about it. it also helps players understand what is rule breaking and what is not. only problem is it can lead to people crying when it's not harsh enough like the currently open complaint: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=34073
Also it's possible some admins consider it "personal info" to reveal that someone got banned but that's ridiculous imo, ban appeals and permabans are public so if they choose to appeal their "personal" info will be revealed anyway.
The second shitter-privacy-concern point is one of the dumbest ones ever. Sorry pal but if you break the rules and grief someone, they have a right to know what punishment you got.
Last edited by sinfulbliss on Sat May 20, 2023 11:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
You're asking for too much, admins couldn't possibly take a few extra seconds to write a more sympathetic response.Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 10:13 pm maybe instead of admins saying "handled" all the time they could say something like, I don't know, "Thanks for your ahelp, this has been helpful"
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
i don't play spacemans to "help get someone on their radar," i play spacemans to have fun with peopleKendrickorium wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 10:13 pma lot of players usually say "nothing ever happens when i ahelp" because they feel they're wasting their time unless they see the player disappear next roundBeeSting12 wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 9:44 pmthis is why i support telling players what type of punishment was given out. it creates a somewhat good feeling on the player's end and makes them more likely to ahelp shit in the future because they know something will get done about it. it also helps players understand what is rule breaking and what is not. only problem is it can lead to people crying when it's not harsh enough like the currently open complaint: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=34073sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 9:14 pmExactly, they get to witness the whole process in action, from report to punishment. They get the satisfaction of having made the servers a better place and meted out justice accordingly. Meanwhile the player gets a “handled.” Were they permabanned? Were they let off with a kiss and a slap on the ass? You’re not privy to that information, prole. Thank you for your participation, and please come again.
Also it's possible some admins consider it "personal info" to reveal that someone got banned but that's ridiculous imo, ban appeals and permabans are public so if they choose to appeal their "personal" info will be revealed anyway.
maybe instead of admins saying "handled" all the time they could say something like, I don't know, "Thanks for your ahelp, this has been helpful"
that'll make them at least think that ahelping was, you know, helpful to get someone on their radar at the very least
anything not conducive to that goal, i shrimply am not going to do
if you told me you smacked someone off the servers for 3 days after i ahelped them it would be more vindicating though and perhaps worth it
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
if you want to help the community, ahelping the shitters would be a good startsinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 11:51 pmi don't play spacemans to "help get someone on their radar," i play spacemans to have fun with peopleKendrickorium wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 10:13 pma lot of players usually say "nothing ever happens when i ahelp" because they feel they're wasting their time unless they see the player disappear next roundBeeSting12 wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 9:44 pmthis is why i support telling players what type of punishment was given out. it creates a somewhat good feeling on the player's end and makes them more likely to ahelp shit in the future because they know something will get done about it. it also helps players understand what is rule breaking and what is not. only problem is it can lead to people crying when it's not harsh enough like the currently open complaint: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=34073sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 9:14 pmExactly, they get to witness the whole process in action, from report to punishment. They get the satisfaction of having made the servers a better place and meted out justice accordingly. Meanwhile the player gets a “handled.” Were they permabanned? Were they let off with a kiss and a slap on the ass? You’re not privy to that information, prole. Thank you for your participation, and please come again.
Also it's possible some admins consider it "personal info" to reveal that someone got banned but that's ridiculous imo, ban appeals and permabans are public so if they choose to appeal their "personal" info will be revealed anyway.
maybe instead of admins saying "handled" all the time they could say something like, I don't know, "Thanks for your ahelp, this has been helpful"
that'll make them at least think that ahelping was, you know, helpful to get someone on their radar at the very least
anything not conducive to that goal, i shrimply am not going to do
if you told me you smacked someone off the servers for 3 days after i ahelped them it would be more vindicating though and perhaps worth it
unless........ of course......... you...... are.... one...
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
I ahelp the worst of the worst type shitters, most often when I'm unable to do anything IC (or just don't feel like it). It brings me no benefit at all but I do this out of a combination of duty and irritation.Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 12:06 am if you want to help the community, ahelping the shitters would be a good start
unless........ of course......... you...... are.... one...
I argue you are also helping the community by creating a space where shitters get shat on for shitting IC.
While technically you would be doing the community a better service by being an insufferable minimod that observes people and ahelps every minor issue you see in their gameplay, this also makes you an insufferable minimod... And more importantly prevents you from enjoying the game. Apply to be admin if you want to admin, and play if you want to play. Ahelp if someone is making playing impossible or very unfun without valid reason. Simple.
Last edited by sinfulbliss on Sun May 21, 2023 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
it really needs to be taken care of both ways for the true lesson "Hey maybe i should stop doing this" to sink insinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 12:09 amI ahelp the worst of the worst type shitters, most often when I'm unable to do anything IC (or just don't feel like it). It brings me no benefit at all but I do this out of a combination of duty and irritation.Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 12:06 am if you want to help the community, ahelping the shitters would be a good start
unless........ of course......... you...... are.... one...
I argue you are also helping the community by creating a space where shitters get shat on for shitting IC.
robust them ic
have the admin slap them ooc
- sinfulbliss
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
Yeah... But I'd much rather just play the game if I've resolved the issue IC, rather than getting in a back-and-forth with an admin and taking myself out the game to describe the issue in detail.Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 12:11 amit really needs to be taken care of both ways for the true lesson "Hey maybe i should stop doing this" to sink insinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 12:09 amI ahelp the worst of the worst type shitters, most often when I'm unable to do anything IC (or just don't feel like it). It brings me no benefit at all but I do this out of a combination of duty and irritation.Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 12:06 am if you want to help the community, ahelping the shitters would be a good start
unless........ of course......... you...... are.... one...
I argue you are also helping the community by creating a space where shitters get shat on for shitting IC.
robust them ic
have the admin slap them ooc
Some old admins used to have the view that if you sought IC retaliation, you lost your ability to ahelp, I'm sort of used to that view.
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- Timberpoes
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
The issue comes where the only punishment a shitter considers punishing is removal from the server.
There are plenty of people who would grief 100% of the time every single shift even if they got round removed within 5 minutes every time. Because their raison d'etre is to gamer on other people and soft-grief the shift. If they inconvenienced even one person, in their own heads they won.
Similarly, the admin team never really get a good perspective of how often said shitter breaks the rules if everything is handled IC. Not only are players not privy to eachothers note histories, they also don't have any particularly useful tools for dealing with greifers versus admins that can go all the way to up permanently removing a player from the servers.
The playerbase trying to self-police usually involves breaking the rules themselves. What happens when you try to police someone else, and then you end up breaking the rules enough in the process others treat you like a shitter and try to ruin your shifts?
And there's also the risk that players whom prefer to deal with things ICly even if it means their server is filled with Hippy-tier shitters, may well have a not-insignificant overlap with shitters themselves on the Venn Diagram of player types.
There are plenty of people who would grief 100% of the time every single shift even if they got round removed within 5 minutes every time. Because their raison d'etre is to gamer on other people and soft-grief the shift. If they inconvenienced even one person, in their own heads they won.
Similarly, the admin team never really get a good perspective of how often said shitter breaks the rules if everything is handled IC. Not only are players not privy to eachothers note histories, they also don't have any particularly useful tools for dealing with greifers versus admins that can go all the way to up permanently removing a player from the servers.
The playerbase trying to self-police usually involves breaking the rules themselves. What happens when you try to police someone else, and then you end up breaking the rules enough in the process others treat you like a shitter and try to ruin your shifts?
And there's also the risk that players whom prefer to deal with things ICly even if it means their server is filled with Hippy-tier shitters, may well have a not-insignificant overlap with shitters themselves on the Venn Diagram of player types.
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
Something I've encountered is players trying to "vigilante" handle shitters with IC methods, only to end up breaking the rules far more egregiously than the actual shitters who never had the time to do anything stupid.
Don't become a shitter to ICly handle the shitters, one can only look so far into the abyss before the abyss looks back. Just ahelp when you see them do dumb shit.
Don't become a shitter to ICly handle the shitters, one can only look so far into the abyss before the abyss looks back. Just ahelp when you see them do dumb shit.
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
There's also the shitter who's willing to endure the gulag punishment just to be an ass again.
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
yeah i agree with the privacy point it was more meant to be a theory on why some admins dont do it.sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 11:40 pmThe first point is a solid one, but I would say that if the player disagrees with the punishment, it’s a matter of saying “sorry that’s my ruling” then closing the ahelp. Any related complaints in forums will be instantly deemed invalid and closed like that one was.BeeSting12 wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 9:44 pm this is why i support telling players what type of punishment was given out. it creates a somewhat good feeling on the player's end and makes them more likely to ahelp shit in the future because they know something will get done about it. it also helps players understand what is rule breaking and what is not. only problem is it can lead to people crying when it's not harsh enough like the currently open complaint: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=34073
Also it's possible some admins consider it "personal info" to reveal that someone got banned but that's ridiculous imo, ban appeals and permabans are public so if they choose to appeal their "personal" info will be revealed anyway.
The second shitter-privacy-concern point is one of the dumbest ones ever. Sorry pal but if you break the rules and grief someone, they have a right to know what punishment you got.
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
What if the "shitter" is actually an antagonist? Ahelping is not going to do anything then. And admins aren't supposed to tell you the player is, in fact, an antagonist, so you're left needing to resolve it IC anyway.
Unfortunately players don't have antag HUDs on! So of course you are going to opt to respond IC to being griefed if you can, instead of running away and ahelping it, that doesn't make you a "shitter" nor does it make you a "vigilante," it just makes you a sane player.
Unfortunately players don't have antag HUDs on! So of course you are going to opt to respond IC to being griefed if you can, instead of running away and ahelping it, that doesn't make you a "shitter" nor does it make you a "vigilante," it just makes you a sane player.
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
This just isnt true. The farthest I have seen someone go is getting gulagged and instantly rearrested for shitting again three times in one round. The third time they came back up they did it purely to suicide with an oxygen tank in my face out of spite. It was funny as fuck and definitely changed that player more than any ban could.
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
sinfulbliss is so right. Thank you for sharing your wisdom with us. If I'm getting mad over a game, the best thing to do is just disconnect and go do something else, instead of seething in dead chat or ahelps. All the fun of playing without the anti-fun of seething and coping. This seems so obvious in retrospect but having it spelled out helped. The best way to play is the Grimaline/Lisa Green way. Play, die, disconnect, repeat.sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 8:58 pm Ahelping from a player-facing perspective resolves absolutely nothing, and ironically the greatest punishment is to yourself. (...) All the while the round is STILL ongoing, people are having fun playing, and you, meanwhile, are sitting there essentially self-round-removed, malding (...) That fucking SUCKS man.
I have a confirmed grand total of 1 merged PR. That basically means I'm a c*der now.
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
It's so joever.
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
That's why an admin shouldn't tell the player what they're doing or even if they're looking into the accused during the round. Their response provides information on a game that relies on incomplete information.sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 3:13 am What if the "shitter" is actually an antagonist? Ahelping is not going to do anything then. And admins aren't supposed to tell you the player is, in fact, an antagonist, so you're left needing to resolve it IC anyway.
Unfortunately players don't have antag HUDs on! So of course you are going to opt to respond IC to being griefed if you can, instead of running away and ahelping it, that doesn't make you a "shitter" nor does it make you a "vigilante," it just makes you a sane player.
If that makes people less likely to ahelp then that's too bad. I think the most they should get is an acknowledgement that the ahelp was received.
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
In the process of investigating the issue and asking follow-up questions to begin with they’re already giving info (if it were an antag they wouldn’t need follow-up questions), so I don’t think this is a factor.dirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2023 9:29 pmThat's why an admin shouldn't tell the player what they're doing or even if they're looking into the accused during the round. Their response provides information on a game that relies on incomplete information.sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 3:13 am What if the "shitter" is actually an antagonist? Ahelping is not going to do anything then. And admins aren't supposed to tell you the player is, in fact, an antagonist, so you're left needing to resolve it IC anyway.
Unfortunately players don't have antag HUDs on! So of course you are going to opt to respond IC to being griefed if you can, instead of running away and ahelping it, that doesn't make you a "shitter" nor does it make you a "vigilante," it just makes you a sane player.
If that makes people less likely to ahelp then that's too bad. I think the most they should get is an acknowledgement that the ahelp was received.
I think generally the way admins handle it is if it’s a nonantag, then fully engage with you. If it’s an antag just don’t answer the ahelp or tell you it’s valid/IC issue (which potentially they could’ve done if it were a nonantag too).
Point is that I think getting attacked by antags is part of the game and you shouldn’t need to ahelp every single fuckin time you’re attacked by an antag. But if you’re not ahelping then you’re retaliating IC, against possible nonantags violating rules. See the issue? It’s insane to suggest you only go for OOC resolution over IC resolution since you have no antag HUD to know whether it’s an IC or OOC issue!
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Re: Is it better to punish shitters IC or OOC- Debate thread
The IC resolutions will just keep happening and happening until an admin finally bans them for the notes they do have and general behaviour and then people start questioning why did he deserve the ban.
This happened with Reider, this happened with others and this will happen again and again.
This happened with Reider, this happened with others and this will happen again and again.
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