Bottled anger peanut

[MooCow12]

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=34122

What did they mean by sec trying to arrest them for having bubblegum gear though?

[Capsandi]

should be a 10 day ban and appealing a 1:1 death to day is cringe very clear cut but I like the title

[MooCow12]

Im mostly curious about what happened to result in the bottle being used, i dont know the full story but if sec instigated a conflict against a shaft miner who only has lethal tools for their job shouldnt they also get in trouble for provoking someone else into using their gear?

Yes the shaft miner shouldnt have used it and was rightfully banned but the time it takes to go into stamcrit is very short no matter how armored you are and the only thing that can save you from a stun baton is a oneclick wonder....surely sec are aware of the powerful tools at their disposal along with the shaftminers? So why randomly direct their 2 hit baton and send their victim into a panic?

Unless ofcourse the appealer lied and only made it seem like sec wanted to just take their gear for themselves.

[Medic]

What did they mean by sec trying to arrest them for having bubblegum gear though?

Honestly I have no clue about this, I wasn't watching the situation as I was dealing with something else at the time and only jumped to the shuttle after seeing the mayhem in a bottle get used.

Im mostly curious about what happened to result in the bottle being used, i dont know the full story but if sec instigated a conflict against a shaft miner who only has lethal tools for their job shouldnt they also get in trouble for provoking someone else into using their gear?

Yes the shaft miner shouldnt have used it and was rightfully banned but the time it takes to go into stamcrit is very short no matter how armored you are and the only thing that can save you from a stun baton is a oneclick wonder....surely sec are aware of the powerful tools at their disposal along with the shaftminers? So why randomly direct their 2 hit baton and send their victim into a panic?

Unless ofcourse the appealer lied and only made it seem like sec wanted to just take their gear for themselves.

Mayhem in a bottle is in no way a proper reaction to an attempted arrest, it's the same reason why self defense maxcaps aren't allowed.

[MooCow12]

Mayhem in a bottle is in no way a proper reaction to an attempted arrest, it's the same reason why self defense maxcaps aren't allowed.

nowhere did i endorse it, but if you are a sec officer and you are randomly attacking a shaft miner or any job that struggles to fight back one on one nonlethally and instead only has aoe warcrimes....just why? Its a shitty move to abuse the fact that they have no tools that they are allowed to fight back with unless they are an antag...wouldnt that be a form of antag checking then?

Security are given extremely powerful tools to detain people and they have a responsibility that comes with it (no random searching/looting)


So all i care about here really is what are the intentions of the security officer. It doesn`t quite seem like only one person should get in trouble here.

[Medic]

Mayhem in a bottle is in no way a proper reaction to an attempted arrest, it's the same reason why self defense maxcaps aren't allowed.

nowhere did i endorse it, but if you are a sec officer and you are randomly attacking a shaft miner or any job that struggles to fight back one on one and instead only has aoe warcrimes....just why? Its a shitty move to abuse the fact that they have no tools that they are allowed to fight back with unless they are an antag...wouldnt that be a form of antag checking then?

Shaft miners definitely have ways to fight back besides bottled mayhem, but you are correct that randomly arresting someone as security without a proper reason would be griefing. Of course this assumes that this was truly a random arrest and there's not more context that justifies it that we are both missing.

[BeeSting12]

im pretty sure the miner said he'd use the bottle of mayhem prior to being arrested

[MooCow12]

Shaft miners definitely have ways to fight back besides bottled mayhem,

Can you list off viable tools/weapons to fight back with that you can quickly use after you are stun batoned in order to win the fight BEFORE the next stun baton hit gets through? Im not well educated on the tools that shaft miners have to fight stun combat and what other ways the shaft miner could have reacted to the situation in order to get out of it.

[MooCow12]

im pretty sure the miner said he'd use the bottle of mayhem prior to being arrested

Oh so he antagonized everyone it seems like?

well he did antagonize everyone (literally) when he smashed the bottle but you know what i mean.

[BeeSting12]

11:18:30 GAME-SAY Alexseetoe/(Bell Finkle) "want me to break this mayhem in a bottle" (219, 125, 3) Emergency Shuttle
11:18:54 ATTACK Wolfmoy/(Sun Catton) stun attacked Alexseetoe/(Bell Finkle) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 100) (220, 124, 3) Emergency Shuttle
11:18:55 ATTACK Wolfmoy/(Sun Catton) shoved Alexseetoe/(Bell Finkle) with knocking them down (NEWHP: 100) (220, 124, 3) Emergency Shuttle
11:18:56 ATTACK Alexseetoe/(Bell Finkle) activated a bottle of mayhem (219, 126, 3) Emergency Shuttle

logs snipped and taken out of context here but this is the sequence of events

https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/206899

[Medic]

Shaft miners definitely have ways to fight back besides bottled mayhem,

Can you list off viable tools/weapons to fight back with that you can quickly use after you are stun batoned in order to win the fight BEFORE the next stun baton hit gets through? Im not well educated on the tools that shaft miners have to fight stun combat and what other ways the shaft miner could have reacted to the situation.

Simply putting distance between yourself and the security officer and using your PKA would be a much better way to fight back with far less collateral. There's also the even better idea of ahelping "security just arrested me for no reason please help" as if there was truly no reason for the arrest it becomes improper escalation.

[MooCow12]

11:18:30 GAME-SAY Alexseetoe/(Bell Finkle) "want me to break this mayhem in a bottle" (219, 125, 3) Emergency Shuttle
11:18:54 ATTACK Wolfmoy/(Sun Catton) stun attacked Alexseetoe/(Bell Finkle) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 100) (220, 124, 3) Emergency Shuttle
11:18:55 ATTACK Wolfmoy/(Sun Catton) shoved Alexseetoe/(Bell Finkle) with knocking them down (NEWHP: 100) (220, 124, 3) Emergency Shuttle
11:18:56 ATTACK Alexseetoe/(Bell Finkle) activated a bottle of mayhem (219, 126, 3) Emergency Shuttle

logs snipped and taken out of context here but this is the sequence of events

https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/206899

Okay so context is pointing at the sec officer

1 reading and reacting to what bell finkle said
2 moving in and chasing/approaching bell finkle
3 finally getting the stun baton hit in

in the span of the 14 seconds that passed since bell said that (which is a realistic timeframe)

so ya i think that sums it up the sec officer was probably in the right.

[MooCow12]

Simply putting distance between yourself and the security officer and using your PKA would be a much better way to fight back

How would you generate distance after the first stun baton hit came through? and again i dont endorse the bottle i just want to know methods that are both viable and legal.

[Medic]

Simply putting distance between yourself and the security officer and using your PKA would be a much better way to fight back

How would you generate distance after the first stun baton hit came through? and again i dont endorse the bottle i just want to know methods that are both viable and legal.

I concede that there really is no great way to put distance between yourself and someone with a stun baton and the best option in the case of a for no reason arrest(which this has been proven to not be) would be to ahelp it.

[BeeSting12]

Simply putting distance between yourself and the security officer and using your PKA would be a much better way to fight back

How would you generate distance after the first stun baton hit came through? and again i dont endorse the bottle i just want to know methods that are both viable and legal.

You don't. See rule 10. We don't allow nonantag scientists or chemists to suicide bomb the antag that's killing them if it will cause collateral damage, don't see why a miner would be able to do something similar on a crowded shuttle for an arrest. Just because you CAN does not mean you SHOULD. Sometimes there's no legal counterplay.

[MooCow12]

So i really am alone in being able to counter stuff like this with my mixture of knockback chems and circuits and the jobs that are often seen as the strongest are often the weakest, makes me wonder.

[Medic]

So i really am alone in being able to counter stuff like this with my mixture of knockback chems and circuits and the jobs that are often seen as the strongest are often the weakest, makes me wonder.

God dammit you weren't asking all of that to figure out the admin approved counter-play to security but instead to confirm your chemist supreme theory weren't you.

[MooCow12]

God dammit you weren't asking all of that to figure out the admin approved counter-play to security but instead to confirm your chemist supreme theory weren't you.

I also use suicide bombs that fix their own breaches now because i mix metalfoam in them c:

[Medic]

God dammit you weren't asking all of that to figure out the admin approved counter-play to security but instead to confirm your chemist supreme theory weren't you.

I also use suicide bombs that fix their own breaches now because i mix metalfoam in them c:

Too strong for avoiding bans, to ensure ban quotas are still met metalfoam chems are now destroyed when present in any explosive reaction

[Archie700]

welcome to players club medic enjoy your stay

[Medic]

welcome to players club medic enjoy your stay

Thank you Archie, I figured I had a responsibility to chime in on my own peanut thread.

[sinfulbliss]

Might be crazy but how is mayhem in a bottle like a maxcap? No one has to attack anyone else once it pops. I mean people generally start chainsawing each other but there's nothing FORCING them to.

IMO nonantags should be allowed to use it but I know headmins at some past term ruled they can't.

[Lacran]

Might be crazy but how is mayhem in a bottle like a maxcap? No one has to attack anyone else once it pops. I mean people generally start chainsawing each other but there's nothing FORCING them to.

IMO nonantags should be allowed to use it but I know headmins at some past term ruled they can't.

You have still just turned everyone into rampaging psychopaths. You can't use "well they could just not rip and tear" because the argument counters any reason to use mayhem in the first place.

If you use mayhem in a bottle and you DON'T want people to start brutalising eachother, then why did you use it?

[sinfulbliss]

Might be crazy but how is mayhem in a bottle like a maxcap? No one has to attack anyone else once it pops. I mean people generally start chainsawing each other but there's nothing FORCING them to.

IMO nonantags should be allowed to use it but I know headmins at some past term ruled they can't.

You have still just turned everyone into rampaging psychopaths. You can't use "well they could just not rip and tear" because the argument counters any reason to use mayhem in the first place.

If you use mayhem in a bottle and you DON'T want people to start brutalising eachother, then why did you use it?

they decide whether or not to be rampaging psychopaths

maybe you use it because it's like an ultimate smoke grenade where you no longer can be cuffed/stunned/pursued (everyone looks the same, stuns don't work, etc), it just puts a full freeze into any interactions you were having previously (which, if a seccie was tryna fuck with you 4noraisin, probably is very useful)

[Archie700]

"It's ok because each and every individual affected could have chosen not to kill others when I gave them a free pass to kill each other without being punished for it" is not a good excuse.

[sinfulbliss]

"It's ok because each and every individual affected could have chosen not to kill others when I gave them a free pass to kill each other without being punished for it" is not a good excuse.

I would like to call into question whether or not it's truly a "free pass." Does it give you a hypno objective? An antag HUD? Nothing? It's just flavortext? If it's just the flavortext "RIP AND TEAR" then I would like to share an anecdote of a time a wizard used a spell that caused me to get a "YOUR MIND SHATTERS... KILL EVERYONE" flavortext in giant rainbow colors. I ahelped and was told it was just flufftext. Isn't this the same?

Now you might say, "well it's commonsense you get a free pass it literally glues a chainsaw to your hands and tells you to rip and tear." If that's the case then perhaps people shouldn't fuck with the guy that has mayhem in a bottle lest they wish for their surroundings to become mayhem in a bottle.

[Lacran]

So sin you think, and I wanna get this clear here.

That the onus of responsibility for mayhem in a bottle should be on the sec officer that tried to stop it, and on every single player. Besides the player that used it?

Mayhem in a bottle creates complete mayhem, the responsibility is on the player that put every single other player in that situation.

Do you really think after someone triggers mayhem in a bottle it would be reasonable to assume business as usual?

Doesn't it make more sense for the person that started the fucking mayhem be responsible?

[Archie700]

"It's ok because each and every individual affected could have chosen not to kill others when I gave them a free pass to kill each other without being punished for it" is not a good excuse.

I would like to call into question whether or not it's truly a "free pass." Does it give you a hypno objective? An antag HUD? Nothing? It's just flavortext? If it's just the flavortext "RIP AND TEAR" then I would like to share an anecdote of a time a wizard used a spell that caused me to get a "YOUR MIND SHATTERS... KILL EVERYONE" flavortext in giant rainbow colors. I ahelped and was told it was just flufftext. Isn't this the same?

Now you might say, "well it's commonsense you get a free pass it literally glues a chainsaw to your hands and tells you to rip and tear." If that's the case then perhaps people shouldn't fuck with the guy that has mayhem in a bottle lest they wish for their surroundings to become mayhem in a bottle.

Do the people who kill during mayhem get banned?
No?
Then it's a free pass. A temporary one, but a free pass to kill nonetheless.

[kinnebian]

"It's ok because each and every individual affected could have chosen not to kill others when I gave them a free pass to kill each other without being punished for it" is not a good excuse.

I would like to call into question whether or not it's truly a "free pass." Does it give you a hypno objective? An antag HUD? Nothing? It's just flavortext? If it's just the flavortext "RIP AND TEAR" then I would like to share an anecdote of a time a wizard used a spell that caused me to get a "YOUR MIND SHATTERS... KILL EVERYONE" flavortext in giant rainbow colors. I ahelped and was told it was just flufftext. Isn't this the same?

Now you might say, "well it's commonsense you get a free pass it literally glues a chainsaw to your hands and tells you to rip and tear." If that's the case then perhaps people shouldn't fuck with the guy that has mayhem in a bottle lest they wish for their surroundings to become mayhem in a bottle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPGgD4v1DKk this is what the mayhem bottle does

[Medic]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPGgD4v1DKk this is what the mayhem bottle does

This fails to demonstrate it making every other player look like a slaughter demon, otherwise it's accurate.

[Fren256]

Might be crazy but how is mayhem in a bottle like a maxcap? No one has to attack anyone else once it pops. I mean people generally start chainsawing each other but there's nothing FORCING them to.

IMO nonantags should be allowed to use it but I know headmins at some past term ruled they can't.

Using kinnebian's video as support, I'd like you to read the following note the Mayhem in a Bottle has on the wiki:

You really shouldn't use this as a non-antag. The 'RIP AND TEAR' objective overrides any allegiances.

This implies that the object gives players a sort of antag objective, which is a higher tier above brainwashing, construct orders and silicon laws.

With that in mind, failing to follow your objective could be seen as FailRP, because if an antagonist used the item but no one began killing each other, then what's the point of it being in the game in the first place? An item that, mind you, especifically states as your objective:

KILL, KILL, KILL! YOU HAVE NO ALLIES ANYMORE, KILL THEM ALL!

[Timonk]

He released his inner demon, causing 10 people to die instantly

[datorangebottle]

yea no, obviously it gives you a pass to kill or the item just doesn't function. come on sinful.
"sorry bro i know someone broke a bottle that told you to kill everyone and glued a chainsaw to your hands, but you killed someone without rule 4 protection or escalation so i'm going to have to ban you." -things no admin will ever say

[Cheshify]

Knowingly and maliciously breaking the rules because you made up the rule that you're allowed to use whatever dangerous object you find just screams bad faith.

[Cheshify]

Knowingly and maliciously breaking the rules because you made up the rule that you're allowed to use whatever dangerous object you find just screams bad faith.

[mindstormy]

It's a rare enough item that I think this is incident is kind of funny and I would have allowed it.

[kinnebian]

Knowingly and maliciously breaking the rules because you made up the rule that you're allowed to use whatever dangerous object you find just screams bad faith.

you can say that again

[kinnebian]

Knowingly and maliciously breaking the rules because you made up the rule that you're allowed to use whatever dangerous object you find just screams bad faith.

you can say that again

[Archie700]

It's a rare enough item that I think this is incident is kind of funny and I would have allowed it.

It isn't to the people who got killed by it and found out that a nonantag did it

[Pepper]

he went sicko mode

[vect0r]

It's a rare enough item that I think this is incident is kind of funny and I would have allowed it.

It isn't to the people who got killed by it and found out that a nonantag did it

I would have had a fun time.

[sinfulbliss]

You really shouldn't use this as a non-antag. The 'RIP AND TEAR' objective overrides any allegiances.

This implies that the object gives players a sort of antag objective, which is a higher tier above brainwashing, construct orders and silicon laws.

With that in mind, failing to follow your objective could be seen as FailRP, because if an antagonist used the item but no one began killing each other, then what's the point of it being in the game in the first place? An item that, mind you, especifically states as your objective:

KILL, KILL, KILL! YOU HAVE NO ALLIES ANYMORE, KILL THEM ALL!

The megafauna wiki page is not policy so all of this is kind of moot. Why would the bottle of mayhem's flavortext qualify as a forced objective whereas the "your mind shatters... [DO BAD THING]" flavortext is flufftext?

yea no, obviously it gives you a pass to kill or the item just doesn't function. come on sinful.
"sorry bro i know someone broke a bottle that told you to kill everyone and glued a chainsaw to your hands, but you killed someone without rule 4 protection or escalation so i'm going to have to ban you." -things no admin will ever say

Because it's sort of just implied that everyone can kill each other with mayhem in a bottle. AFAIK it's not sketched into policy, it's just commonsense so admins treat it as if it were a real objective. But if it's not technically required that everyone kill each other then it definitely can't be compared to a maxcap.

It's a rare enough item that I think this is incident is kind of funny and I would have allowed it.

pretty much this in sum

[CMDR_Gungnir]

"It's ok because each and every individual affected could have chosen not to kill others when I gave them a free pass to kill each other without being punished for it" is not a good excuse.

I would like to call into question whether or not it's truly a "free pass." Does it give you a hypno objective? An antag HUD? Nothing? It's just flavortext? If it's just the flavortext "RIP AND TEAR" then I would like to share an anecdote of a time a wizard used a spell that caused me to get a "YOUR MIND SHATTERS... KILL EVERYONE" flavortext in giant rainbow colors. I ahelped and was told it was just flufftext. Isn't this the same?

Now you might say, "well it's commonsense you get a free pass it literally glues a chainsaw to your hands and tells you to rip and tear." If that's the case then perhaps people shouldn't fuck with the guy that has mayhem in a bottle lest they wish for their surroundings to become mayhem in a bottle.

I've been bwoinked for a Mayhem in a Bottle going off before and standing aside to try and calm everyone down.

No note for it, because I went "Oh fuck okay I didn't realize we weren't allowed to know that the Demon standing suspiciously where John was 5 seconds ago isn't John, I'll do it proper next time o7" but it's Definitely A Thing.

[sinfulbliss]

"It's ok because each and every individual affected could have chosen not to kill others when I gave them a free pass to kill each other without being punished for it" is not a good excuse.

I would like to call into question whether or not it's truly a "free pass." Does it give you a hypno objective? An antag HUD? Nothing? It's just flavortext? If it's just the flavortext "RIP AND TEAR" then I would like to share an anecdote of a time a wizard used a spell that caused me to get a "YOUR MIND SHATTERS... KILL EVERYONE" flavortext in giant rainbow colors. I ahelped and was told it was just flufftext. Isn't this the same?

Now you might say, "well it's commonsense you get a free pass it literally glues a chainsaw to your hands and tells you to rip and tear." If that's the case then perhaps people shouldn't fuck with the guy that has mayhem in a bottle lest they wish for their surroundings to become mayhem in a bottle.

I've been bwoinked for a Mayhem in a Bottle going off before and standing aside to try and calm everyone down.

No note for it, because I went "Oh fuck okay I didn't realize we weren't allowed to know that the Demon standing suspiciously where John was 5 seconds ago isn't John, I'll do it proper next time o7" but it's Definitely A Thing.

I mean I can see it being against roleplay rules, but by the same token it would also be against roleplay rules for me to ignore my hallucinations that someone turned into a carp and all sorts of others.

[Medic]

The real solution here is making mayhem in a bottle antag only or removing it all together but that's closer to a code issue not a policy one.

[vect0r]

The real solution here is making mayhem in a bottle antag only or removing it all together but that's closer to a code issue not a policy one.

Please no

[Kendrickorium]

sorry i'm late

[Medic]

sorry i'm late

Don't forget the free space and the sinful posting

[Kendrickorium]

lol i love that he tries to casually explain to the admin that shuttle EORG is fine

[Archie700]

You really shouldn't use this as a non-antag. The 'RIP AND TEAR' objective overrides any allegiances.

This implies that the object gives players a sort of antag objective, which is a higher tier above brainwashing, construct orders and silicon laws.

With that in mind, failing to follow your objective could be seen as FailRP, because if an antagonist used the item but no one began killing each other, then what's the point of it being in the game in the first place? An item that, mind you, especifically states as your objective:

KILL, KILL, KILL! YOU HAVE NO ALLIES ANYMORE, KILL THEM ALL!

The megafauna wiki page is not policy so all of this is kind of moot. Why would the bottle of mayhem's flavortext qualify as a forced objective whereas the "your mind shatters... [DO BAD THING]" flavortext is flufftext?

yea no, obviously it gives you a pass to kill or the item just doesn't function. come on sinful.
"sorry bro i know someone broke a bottle that told you to kill everyone and glued a chainsaw to your hands, but you killed someone without rule 4 protection or escalation so i'm going to have to ban you." -things no admin will ever say

Because it's sort of just implied that everyone can kill each other with mayhem in a bottle. AFAIK it's not sketched into policy, it's just commonsense so admins treat it as if it were a real objective. But if it's not technically required that everyone kill each other then it definitely can't be compared to a maxcap.

It's a rare enough item that I think this is incident is kind of funny and I would have allowed it.

pretty much this in sum

The fact that it gives people the option of killing each other with no repercussion for 2 minutes is why it's considered griefing to use it as a non-antag to begin with.
Not everyone is going to do nothing during those two minutes and trying to justify using it in any way except antag tricks is a hard sell AT BEST because people killing each other is the entire point of this item.
As long as a few people start killing, it's going to turn into a deathmatch.

What's fun for you might not be fun for other people on the shuttle, believe it or not not everyone wants to be suddenly thrust into a deathmatch.