r/OutOfTheLoop: The New Cratening

[Fren256]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Hello fellow redditors, I'm out of the loop on a certain matter and I require your help. I wanna know what's the deal with PR #75785. Why is it so controversial? Why do you hate (or love) it? And why does the author feel they have been gaslit by their detractors? Only big chungus 100 wholesome keanu reeves answers please.

[Armhulen]

Armhulen come on, we are kin here. Don't you recall those halcyon days of medical getting flooded with freon every round? The money trees and unlimited null crates.

I unironically miss freon, I miss null crates when they weren't done every round. Like, nobody ever had issues with them for years but as time went on people realized they really could just hand an emag to the QM at any time and start an infinite flood of traitor gear. Honestly? Null crates could come back if the unlock condition was harder than "use an emag" and we all know it. There needs to be some kind of thing that prevents it from being something done constantly like the last few months before removal.
Same with gangs. Gangs on release? fun. Gangs when everyone learns there is no downside to just building the dominator behind 5 reinforced walls and bolted doors? Painful. So painful. Preventing people from settling into "every round" gimmicks is key for enjoyment and longevity of features.

God I miss freon. Removed because it was laggy and crashy too, not because people hated it. I loved turning the station into a winter wonderland, it felt like a real unique deadly environment condition.

Please bring back gangs. Some of my favorite ss13 memories happened during gangs rounds.

If you figure out how to avoid the ugliest most unfun meta settling around base defense it will be a mode that is never removed again

[Armhulen]

Wallening looks like shit

the "i play dwarf fortress without a tileset" take

dont pretend like you play dwarf fortress

I actually like adventure mode a lot

[BeeSting12]

snip
Please bring back gangs. Some of my favorite ss13 memories happened during gangs rounds.

If you figure out how to avoid the ugliest most unfun meta settling around base defense it will be a mode that is never removed again

I think the dominator was the wrong way to go about it. Should be based entirely around tagging and with no round end condition. Winning gang determined by percentage of station tagged. Gang leaders are able to buy their sick toys with influence gained by people repping gang colors and doing various other illegal activities. Security should be playing against the gangs because of the carnage they cause rather than because the round will end if they don't. I disagree with goof's families approach where joining is consensual.

[Constellado]

I found an image of it with the wallening.
it looks good.
wait...
why is the crate half way up a floor tile?

let me fix that

There we go. (couldnt be bothered to move the open one down with photoshop, should I?)
Or... are all objects made with the wallening meant to be made to go half way up a wall tile?

[oranges]

lmao the spriter's digg posting is even trashier than his Discord posting and he's being such a fucking prick that now I'm strictly opposed to the sprites just because he's such a doink

digg?

[RedBaronFlyer]

I found an image of it with the wallening.
it looks good.
wait...
why is the crate half way up a floor tile?

let me fix that

There we go. (couldnt be bothered to move the open one down with photoshop, should I?)
Or... are all objects made with the wallening meant to be made to go half way up a wall tile?

ehhhh... it looks better I guess but it still looks bad.

[Learner]

All right. About time a thread on this came up...

I do not like the crates. Fundamentally, they feel like they weren't made from a good place. People have suspected this from the spriter, that they feel dispirited from SS13 related matters, and in a few cases, it shows here. The creator themselves has stated that they did not feel 'motivated' to complete the PR, meaning we were presented with an unfinished project. Some of the work that was presented has errors or poor alignment. The electrical crates presented below are the worst offender, even if it's an easy fix. Assuming you don't consider the outright color change as an issue.


The sprite of it changes between it's open and closed state, losing a line of orange pixels on each end of the crate being opened.

Another issue that needs addressing: the 'bumps' on the tops of the mining, security, and military crates are off center. Kendrickorium isn't imagining it. They simply are not even. The bumps sit closer to the center on the left side then they do the right.



Now, the following issues are a matter of following 'motif', or simply put, the style. With wooden crates, it becomes more apparent then ever, and this is one issue that has bugged me to no end. It's clear that most of the crates we've acquired have had a certain style i.e. thick edges, no visible hinges, consistent insides, and relatively short sides. They're also designed from the bottom of the tile up, but they all have that. Nothing... about that wooden crate carries an ounce of matching style with the rest of the crates. The wooden crate has... no thick blurred edges, tall sides, and looks somewhat skinny I say? I could even go so far as to say that it feels like I'm looking at the wooden crate from a different angle from every other crate, and that's not good! The worst part as well? I think the wooden crate is actually the best of the set! It's a crate. It doesn't really need to demand for my attention with visual noise.



Going down the line... The freezer and normal crates share way too similar a color pallet. This extends into numerous issues some players were having with this, same as some of the concerns with the medkit sprites: they look too similar based on their colors, or perhaps rather, there wasn't enough put into making them look different. A player brought up this issue, which I feel is a valid concern... objects for different things should not be incredibly similar in look... but they were met with hostility on the matter, feeding into this 'player opinion doesn't matter' spheel some folks are describing. Fixing this one is easy: the standard crate color needs to be dropped a shade, since freezer crates are best identifiable by their 'pale eggshell' color.


We can see this same issue appear when we look at the oxygen and medical crates. Again, very similar look, for entirely different contents. In a sense, this is also a design issue, since it detracts from a fundamentally consistent motif we've had for a long time: oxygen goods are primarily cyan blue. Oxygen lockers, oxygen medkits, and O2 canisters all carry a strong blue color pattern, making them easily identifiable. The solution to this is simple: swap the primary and secondary colors so the biggest most identifiable color is the blue, leaving the blue-tint metal for the bars and lettering.


I'm not going to go into detail about the freezer crate looks like a tanning bed or some sci-fi grill, but I am going to make stupid gimmicks with the tanning bed freezers, or how we lost the cutesy 'instruction/safety precaution pages' on the inner tops of our military crates. I'm not going to ask today why the crates are on the bottom of the tile as apposed to looking like they're at the top (this is a big issue though so don't let this drop). I'm not going to go into detail about how a lot of the crates have faded sleepy colors that remind me of old paint, and I'm not going to go into details about the anatomical question about 'where the hinges' are stored at, or 'briefcase crates'... those I'm sure have already been said. Spriting is hard work, and as much as folks would love to have their eternal version of SS13 forever with no visual changes, that's simply not what happens. The key word in developers is 'develop'. Eventually, there's a need to advance the style. Frankly, I love the look of the wallening, and I think it looks great myself! And I'm aware that a great tremendous deal of visual changes will come along with it... some of them for the better, some of them for the worse. But folks won't sit by for what they identify as 'bad'. Frankly, as long as I can indifferently tolerate a change, it may as well be a good change.

[RedBaronFlyer]

IIRC the wooden crate wasn't made by the spriter but was used with permission. I have no idea where they said that though.

edit:
Found it. It was in the PR:

credit for the wooden crate goes to tau ceti, I was too lazy to redo it myself, so we get this inbetweener for now. it looks good enough.

which is kind of ironic because the wooden crate has consistently been the one that's been the one that has had consistently good feedback.

[TheFinalPotato]

Or... are all objects made with the wallening meant to be made to go half way up a wall tile?

Yes. it varies but we're likely gonna shift most things (lockers, computers, tables) up I think it's 14 pixels rn. Mobs too, for the guy who was asking about frills.

[dirk_mcblade]

Wallening looks like shit

the "i play dwarf fortress without a tileset" take

I literally do that though

[sinfulbliss]

Or... are all objects made with the wallening meant to be made to go half way up a wall tile?

Yes. it varies but we're likely gonna shift most things (lockers, computers, tables) up I think it's 14 pixels rn. Mobs too, for the guy who was asking about frills.

will people no longer be centered on tiles because of the shift?

[dirk_mcblade]

I'm gonna be honest. I don't like the aesthetics of goonstation* and something about the wallening makes me feel like tgstation is trying to look like goonstation. What's next, are we gonna add little dust clouds to the foot steps in some future PR?

My hope is that in the end tgstation maintains a distinct feel apart from goon station.

*To me goonstation looks like a shittier version of an SNES game. Like Chrono trigger but with shittier animation. For some reason I accept a look that's unapologetically janky rather than a look that tries and fails at copying 30 year old technology.

[TheFinalPotato]

will people no longer be centered on tiles because of the shift?

Not a perfect example since I've not shifted structures yet, but that's the idea yes.

[sinfulbliss]

will people no longer be centered on tiles because of the shift?

Not a perfect example since I've not shifted structures yet, but that's the idea yes.

trying to understand. how will tile clicking work if people’s sprites bleed into other tiles from a resting position? can you click that guy by aiming in the tile above him, even though he’s not standing there? does he reduce his hitbox by 50% since he’s standing under a wall?

will people’s heads peak over doors and corners so you can snipe the top part of them? it seems like a massive headache — out of curiosity what made y’all decide it was worth the thicc tiles?

[dirk_mcblade]

So hiding behind south walls is going to be the new meta.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

What I strongly dislike is that all the white clinical crates got shaded down into regular greys for no reason other than the author says "White crates are lame", along with the general loss of colour vibrancy on the departmental indications

[sinfulbliss]

So hiding behind south walls is going to be the new meta.

from the image it looks like the characters are visible from the south walls, but as a result the overlap is pushed to the north walls

[TheFinalPotato]

trying to understand. how will tile clicking work if people’s sprites bleed into other tiles from a resting position? can you click that guy by aiming in the tile above him, even though he’s not standing there? does he reduce his hitbox by 50% since he’s standing under a wall?

will people’s heads peak over doors and corners so you can snipe the top part of them? it seems like a massive headache — out of curiosity what made y’all decide it was worth the thicc tiles?

what do you mean by tile clicking?
hitbox is still the same, it's just shifted up by 16 pixels.

heads showing when you can't see the body is controllable, I think right now they don't.
walls/windows/doors are all done in the new style, so it doesn't look weird really.



I don't have a great answer to that second question, so I'm just gonna info dump context.
TL;DR: it's pretty and I can make it work, so I'm making it work.

tallwalls were a concept came up with by I think someone from para initially? Infrared baron fleshed out the style a bit further, and hooked one of our old maintainers, rohisie. this was like 2020 at some point.
infra used the style for mojave sun, a tg fork he devs for, and convinced roh it was worth porting to /tg/ (roh did this sort of thing a lot, did a lot of work on downstreams and other codebases)
roh then convince kryson, who knocked out most of the core sprites for the project. roh then burned out some, and handed work over to action ninja.

lot of other work happen in this time period from a variety of devs. we have somewhere around 10 people who have put a lot of work into the project at some point or another. the project wasn't technically stable at this point tho, it was very much building the rails as the train ran.

action spent a long time working on the project code wise, but he burned out on byond issues, particularly ones with sidemap, the map format we need to use to make the perspective work [#58051]https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/58051[/url]
then ninjanomnon took over, but he's busy with other shit, so he effectively left kryson alone, which made the man burn out.

I figured out the sidemap issue in december of like 2021, and worked on fixing it for about 8 months, which lead to plane cube.
once that was done we were sure the project was actually technically feasible, and could start pulling people to work on it again.
action's still around, helps me with the cutter making wall and window sprites smooth together, have other artists and coders putting in work like imaginos, draco, viro, arcane, tattle.

I'm mostly going off the work of kryson. the general idea is this sort of style "looks better", and it also provides the same amount of space on the side of walls as we have currently. you may have seen viro's mockups with like stripes on walls, etc.
the spriters talk about this being the only proper way of doing 3/4ths (except not really cause to do that properly we'd need to squish tiles down to 32x24, but close enough)
I'm not an artist, but I think it's pretty and the spritetainers say it's good. it's technically feasible so I'm doing it, most of the concerns from players involve hiding under frills, which is mitigated by the masking system, tho that obviously needs some tlc. I imagine there was more reasoning then this at one point but I never really picked it up. It's been a long while since things started.

[TheFinalPotato]

So hiding behind south walls is going to be the new meta.

Frills are masked by your viewport, we just need to work out a way of doing that that doesn't look like anus. The mask is very much a coder sprite.
Also, you're shifted up so no

[sinfulbliss]

trying to understand. how will tile clicking work if people’s sprites bleed into other tiles from a resting position? can you click that guy by aiming in the tile above him, even though he’s not standing there? does he reduce his hitbox by 50% since he’s standing under a wall?

will people’s heads peak over doors and corners so you can snipe the top part of them? it seems like a massive headache — out of curiosity what made y’all decide it was worth the thicc tiles?

what do you mean by tile clicking?
hitbox is still the same, it's just shifted up by 16 pixels.

heads showing when you can't see the body is controllable, I think right now they don't.
walls/windows/doors are all done in the new style, so it doesn't look weird really.



I don't have a great answer to that second question, so I'm just gonna info dump context.
TL;DR: it's pretty and I can make it work, so I'm making it work.

tallwalls were a concept came up with by I think someone from para initially? Infrared baron fleshed out the style a bit further, and hooked one of our old maintainers, rohisie. this was like 2020 at some point.
infra used the style for mojave sun, a tg fork he devs for, and convinced roh it was worth porting to /tg/ (roh did this sort of thing a lot, did a lot of work on downstreams and other codebases)
roh then convince kryson, who knocked out most of the core sprites for the project. roh then burned out some, and handed work over to action ninja.

lot of other work happen in this time period from a variety of devs. we have somewhere around 10 people who have put a lot of work into the project at some point or another. the project wasn't technically stable at this point tho, it was very much building the rails as the train ran.

action spent a long time working on the project code wise, but he burned out on byond issues, particularly ones with sidemap, the map format we need to use to make the perspective work [#58051]https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/58051[/url]
then ninjanomnon took over, but he's busy with other shit, so he effectively left kryson alone, which made the man burn out.

I figured out the sidemap issue in december of like 2021, and worked on fixing it for about 8 months, which lead to plane cube.
once that was done we were sure the project was actually technically feasible, and could start pulling people to work on it again.
action's still around, helps me with the cutter making wall and window sprites smooth together, have other artists and coders putting in work like imaginos, draco, viro, arcane, tattle.

I'm mostly going off the work of kryson. the general idea is this sort of style "looks better", and it also provides the same amount of space on the side of walls as we have currently. you may have seen viro's mockups with like stripes on walls, etc.
the spriters talk about this being the only proper way of doing 3/4ths (except not really cause to do that properly we'd need to squish tiles down to 32x24, but close enough)
I'm not an artist, but I think it's pretty and the spritetainers say it's good. it's technically feasible so I'm doing it, most of the concerns from players involve hiding under frills, which is mitigated by the masking system, tho that obviously needs some tlc. I imagine there was more reasoning then this at one point but I never really picked it up. It's been a long while since things started.

neato, thanks a lot for explaining it in so much depth. cool to hear about the origin as well

how bout like items? i notice the bottom of the chairs are hidden by the walls, which makes sense — but won’t items need to be adjusted too? (tuck diskie into the south wall… or hide a grenade in there)

will the tile sprites get adjusted to re-center according to the spacemen’s new position? in a perfect world i bet you could make it look like nothing’s adjusted at all actually, if everything’s reframed

[saprasam]

off-center spacemen is a concept i am displeased with

[TheFinalPotato]

how bout like items? i notice the bottom of the chairs are hidden by the walls, which makes sense — but won’t items need to be adjusted too? (tuck diskie into the south wall… or hide a grenade in there)

will the tile sprites get adjusted to re-center according to the spacemen’s new position? in a perfect world i bet you could make it look like nothing’s adjusted at all actually, if everything’s reframed

Likely gonna offset chairs so players can sit in them and not have it look dumb. Item offsetting is gonna be troublesome, I'm gonna have to play with how the frill mask works to prevent major stupid.
Tile sprites won't since something needs to sit below the frills. the mask is gonna be needed, can't get it perfect unfortunately (we thought there was a way but it just breaks byond behavior too bad)

Chairs are gonna look a bit strange with tables since they'd be too high on the north end. The system would really shine with pixel movement, but that's a whole other can of worms (tho notably it would be possible without horrible lag now, which is pretty cool)

[Timonk]

Chairs are gonna look a bit strange with tables since they'd be too high on the north end. The system would really shine with pixel movement, but that's a whole other can of worms (tho notably it would be possible without horrible lag now, which is pretty cool)

Thinking about it, shouldn't all solid or commonly anchored objects get the wall treatment?

[Featherfield]

Honestly the worst reskin in a while and of course its from the downstream coder guy who made stuff on TG to get it forced downstream

[Pepper]

its ugly and looks like stardew valley

[Bawhoppennn]

I always thought the Wallening (which btw will never happen, atleast not this decade, get real people), looks super ugly... shouldn't /tg/station be like... the most vanilla codebase? And not some weird avant-garde art style???

[Capsandi]

NEW MEDKITS ARE 100% BETTER
idgaf about crates but the further we stray from second generation pillow medkits the better GOD I HATE PILLOW MEDKITS

[Vekter]

words (I'm not quoting the whole thing, you can scroll up)

This is all really good feedback (and presented in a respectful manner, thank god) but there's a couple of notes:

1) The good news is that a lot of these issues (the bumps on the top of crates not lining up, missing pixels) are pretty easy fixes and can be done by pretty much anyone who can download aseprite and has the patience to do it. The maintainers aren't blocking PRs that touch small facets of the new crates, only ones that seek to completely change them. There's even a PR up right now to fix the weird line thickness around them. I imagine you could get away with putting those cute instruction things back on the sec crates if you really wanted to, but you'd pretty much have to sprite them by hand, which is kind of a pain in the ass.

2) The freezer and normal crates are supposed to be similar to one another, since the freezer is just a regular crate with cooling elements inside. You could also likely get away with PRing your suggestion and it wouldn't be too hard to hammer out over like half an hour.

3) Medical crates were changed since this PR, they now have a nice, big cross on the top to better differentiate it.

4) I feel like I'm the only person who likes the freezer crates. It makes more sense that Nanotrasen would have special refrigerated crates to ship things in than just a big foam cooler full of ice.

Also unrelated to the quote but I genuinely haven't seen a single wallening screenshot that I didn't think looked fucking aces. I'm excited for this if it ever actually gets done.

E:

NEW MEDKITS ARE 100% BETTER
idgaf about crates but the further we stray from second generation pillow medkits the better GOD I HATE PILLOW MEDKITS

This is objectively correct.

[scamoppi]

the wallening looks so cool
is there gonna be another test run of it on the Wall Hall?

[Kendrickorium]

i dont understand how anyone can like the new kits better than the old ones when you cant even understand what symbol is on top. they just look like black pixelated blobs to me?

the insides of the freezer crates are neat but god so many of the colors used on all of them are so hideous it hurts my eyes. big laughs that the wooden crate was made by someone else.

i just get this feeling that (SOME) coders here will eventually move on to do their own projects, and that (SOME) coders will get feedback like this, that something doesnt look good at all, overwhelming feedback in some cases, and then move on to laugh and say we are all wrong, then no one will buy their game and they will wonder why.

Though I suppose its really easy to forget that ss13 is a free game that we all enjoy though, so at the end of the day, change is just change until something even better comes along. very excited for the wallening, go play more dorf fortress, nerds.

ALSO GOD DAMMIT I WAS RIGHT ABOUT SHIT BEING OFF CENTER OH MY GOD I THOUGHT I WAS TAKING CRAZY PILLS

[Fren256]

My eyes have a skill issue

Please tell me what do you see in the following picture:

[BrolyButterfingers]

words (I'm not quoting the whole thing, you can scroll up)

This is all really good feedback (and presented in a respectful manner, thank god) but there's a couple of notes:

1) The good news is that a lot of these issues (the bumps on the top of crates not lining up, missing pixels) are pretty easy fixes and can be done by pretty much anyone who can download aseprite and has the patience to do it. The maintainers aren't blocking PRs that touch small facets of the new crates, only ones that seek to completely change them. There's even a PR up right now to fix the weird line thickness around them. I imagine you could get away with putting those cute instruction things back on the sec crates if you really wanted to, but you'd pretty much have to sprite them by hand, which is kind of a pain in the ass.

2) The freezer and normal crates are supposed to be similar to one another, since the freezer is just a regular crate with cooling elements inside. You could also likely get away with PRing your suggestion and it wouldn't be too hard to hammer out over like half an hour.

3) Medical crates were changed since this PR, they now have a nice, big cross on the top to better differentiate it.

4) I feel like I'm the only person who likes the freezer crates. It makes more sense that Nanotrasen would have special refrigerated crates to ship things in than just a big foam cooler full of ice.

Also unrelated to the quote but I genuinely haven't seen a single wallening screenshot that I didn't think looked fucking aces. I'm excited for this if it ever actually gets done.

E:

NEW MEDKITS ARE 100% BETTER
idgaf about crates but the further we stray from second generation pillow medkits the better GOD I HATE PILLOW MEDKITS

This is objectively correct.

Admins trying this hard to carry water for shit nobody likes while the spriter themselves is such an aggressive fucking asshole is probably my favourite thing about this entire shitshow. It's like watching a politician's press officer try to spin a video of them kicking a dog while the politician can be heard on a hot mic shouting I'D FUCKIN DO IT AGAIN

It's such a hilarious tonal mismatch.

[Kendrickorium]

My eyes have a skill issue

Please tell me what do you see in the following picture:

no stop

[Vekter]

Admins trying this hard to carry water for shit nobody likes while the spriter themselves is such an aggressive fucking asshole is probably my favourite thing about this entire shitshow. It's like watching a politician's press officer try to spin a video of them kicking a dog while the politician can be heard on a hot mic shouting I'D FUCKIN DO IT AGAIN

It's such a hilarious tonal mismatch.

Believe it or not, I don't really care about Viro? Not in like an excessively negative way, I just don't know them past them being kind of an asshole to people over this debacle (which I understand given that it's rough to put something out there and people not like it but that absolutely does not justify how they acted).

I guess I'm just trying to keep things positive? It's better to fix a problem than it is to sit there and bitch about it all day.

[oranges]

I always thought the Wallening (which btw will never happen, atleast not this decade, get real people), looks super ugly... shouldn't /tg/station be like... the most vanilla codebase? And not some weird avant-garde art style???

this is why i have never ever considered listening to player feedback

[sinfulbliss]

i think it’d be interesting for TG to run a legacy codebase on like Campbell or some shit and see how popular that is versus the new rebase

cause at the end of the day you can prolly do whatever you want to the codebase short of just genuinely breaking and bugging it out, and you’re not gonna have a mass migration or anything cause TG is too big to fail

[Itseasytosee2me]

will we do a humaning like goon did? that would be badass.

[oranges]

i think it’d be interesting for TG to run a legacy codebase on like Campbell or some shit and see how popular that is versus the new rebase

cause at the end of the day you can prolly do whatever you want to the codebase short of just genuinely breaking and bugging it out, and you’re not gonna have a mass migration or anything cause TG is too big to fail

if you want to play a legacy codebase just connect to para and if you want even older, connect to vg.

there are plenty of servers stuck in the past.

and you know what? they suck, they suck hard

[sinfulbliss]

i think it’d be interesting for TG to run a legacy codebase on like Campbell or some shit and see how popular that is versus the new rebase

cause at the end of the day you can prolly do whatever you want to the codebase short of just genuinely breaking and bugging it out, and you’re not gonna have a mass migration or anything cause TG is too big to fail

if you want to play a legacy codebase just connect to para and if you want even older, connect to vg.

there are plenty of servers stuck in the past.

and you know what? they suck, they suck hard

you're scared what you might find out, aren't you orangeman... WHEN CAMPBELL HAS 130POP!

[TheFinalPotato]

Honestly the worst reskin in a while and of course its from the downstream coder guy who made stuff on TG to get it forced downstream

oh no pride pins whatever will we do

Thinking about it, shouldn't all solid or commonly anchored objects get the wall treatment?

most things are gonna get shifted yeah. we'll see how things go

will we do a humaning like goon did? that would be badass.

goof and a few other devs keep talking about it, fuckin deranged man let's do one massive resprite at a time

[AlamoTurtle]

will we do a humaning like goon did? that would be badass.

Goon humaning looks yucky please no. It is literally what drove me away from there, among other things.

[Kendrickorium]

how far away are you guys from wallening? i'm excited to see the salt it produces, as well

[BlueMemesauce]

Pride pins make no sense in the lore since homophobia no longer exists, but at least now we can wear the asexual pride pin as the plasmaman and be a sigma asexual reproducer

[Vekter]

Pride pins make no sense in the lore since homophobia no longer exists, but at least now we can wear the asexual pride pin as the plasmaman and be a sigma asexual reproducer

I don't know what that has to do with anything, but okay.

Also, we don't wear pride stuff to fight homophobia, we do it because we're proud of our identity.

[Timonk]

Pride pins make no sense in the lore since homophobia no longer exists, but at least now we can wear the asexual pride pin as the plasmaman and be a sigma asexual reproducer

I don't know what that has to do with anything, but okay.

Also, we don't wear pride stuff to fight homophobia, we do it because we're proud of our identity.

Let's not get political here
How about you take this to polcon buddy? We are recruiting new members

[Armhulen]

ducks told me to post this for their thoughts on the new crates. i miss ducks.............

[Striders13]

i frew up

[Fren256]

Pride pins make no sense in the lore since homophobia no longer exists, but at least now we can wear the asexual pride pin as the plasmaman and be a sigma asexual reproducer

NSFW:

[Boot]

I love how the guy who wanted to get rid of double barrel skins because of "sprite debt" also was the one who flooded in pride pins.

[dirk_mcblade]

will we do a humaning like goon did? that would be badass.

Goon humaning looks yucky please no. It is literally what drove me away from there, among other things.

This

[warbluke]

I do not understand where all the people who go "Wallening looks really cool" are coming from. It's not ugly or anything but it does not seem any more cool than our current perspective. I do play DF on ASCII though so I am not to be trusted. Are there any good videos of people running around in the Wallenverse out there? Maybe it looks cool in motion.