Notes ARE Punishment Peanut

[Chadley]

Bottom post of the previous page:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=34501

I understand that you have played this game for a significant time, but I haven't gone digging back a decade or fourteen years for these notes. Just a couple years. I acknowledge still, that a couple of years is quite some time to be looking back, but when I look at such a time frame on any other player, I have yet to see a similar case of one breaking the same rule 6 times.

14 days is a long time, even more so when you're basing it off the last 2 years. Fading notes are not a real concept. Especially with an active player like Crag.

[ekaterina]

I never say thanks to admins in ahelps, it's basically bootlicking

I so hope this isn't ironic. Did Fren become based overnight?

[TheRex9001]

I wouldnt say thanks if I got banned by an admin, I would if I ahelped like a mechanical or rule question though

[ekaterina]

I wouldnt say thanks if I got banned by an admin, I would if I ahelped like a mechanical or rule question though

That's what I was thinking too. Why would you thank someone for harming or inconveniencing you? I've seen people do it but I don't understand it. Maybe they say it without really thinking about what they're saying?

[TheRex9001]

I wouldnt say thanks if I got banned by an admin, I would if I ahelped like a mechanical or rule question though

That's what I was thinking too. Why would you thank someone for harming or inconveniencing you? I've seen people do it but I don't understand it. Maybe they say it without really thinking about what they're saying?

I havent seen it a lot yet, but yeah most likely just a default response.

[dendydoom]

i generally thank people for their time when i'm asking for some of it (in the case of things like an appeal) not for the act of being banned. it's just a courtesy that is important to me to extend to others.

i don't expect it when i'm in an ahelp with players as an admin at all, whether it's resulted in a punishment or i'm just asking them about something. thank me, don't thank me, tell me to get fucked, stay silent and go back to playing the game, whatever, do what ya gotta do champ.

in fact, it would feel pretty weird to have someone say thank you in a response to being punished. maybe do that if you're looking to mess with my head, it'll work.

[Super Aggro Crag]

im not thanking him for the ban im thanking him for shortening it 4 days in response to my appeal you goobers

[dendydoom]

im not thanking him for the ban im thanking him for shortening it 4 days in response to my appeal you goobers

sorry crag this thread has spun so far out of control that i actually forgot it was about your appeal.

[Ziiro]

I don't like this ban

[sinfulbliss]

im not thanking him for the ban im thanking him for shortening it 4 days in response to my appeal you goobers

You shouldn’t have thanked him at all. It’s like someone taking a shit on your chest, begrudgingly wiping half the shit off after you complain, and then thanking them for their hospitality.

[Capsandi]

this thread rules but im too busy playing nethack to read it

[dendydoom]

this thread rules but im too busy playing nethack to read it

what floor you on and what items you got bro i love nethack

i actually prefer angband (frogcomposband for life) but nethack is still epic

[Bawhoppennn]

im not thanking him for the ban im thanking him for shortening it 4 days in response to my appeal you goobers

You shouldn’t have thanked him at all. It’s like someone taking a shit on your chest, begrudgingly wiping half the shit off after you complain, and then thanking them for their hospitality.

Crag did write the guide to getting unbanned tho

[Super Aggro Crag]

im not thanking him for the ban im thanking him for shortening it 4 days in response to my appeal you goobers

You shouldn’t have thanked him at all. It’s like someone taking a shit on your chest, begrudgingly wiping half the shit off after you complain, and then thanking them for their hospitality.

admins can, have, and will extend bans if they think someone is being disrespectful in their appeal.

[sinfulbliss]

im not thanking him for the ban im thanking him for shortening it 4 days in response to my appeal you goobers

You shouldn’t have thanked him at all. It’s like someone taking a shit on your chest, begrudgingly wiping half the shit off after you complain, and then thanking them for their hospitality.

admins can, have, and will extend bans if they think someone is being disrespectful in their appeal.

pretty sure that has never happened
headmins can extend it but that’s only in cases where the player’s being an insufferable cunt and even then it’s rare

what happened to you

[Super Aggro Crag]

im not thanking him for the ban im thanking him for shortening it 4 days in response to my appeal you goobers

You shouldn’t have thanked him at all. It’s like someone taking a shit on your chest, begrudgingly wiping half the shit off after you complain, and then thanking them for their hospitality.

admins can, have, and will extend bans if they think someone is being disrespectful in their appeal.

pretty sure that has never happened
headmins can extend it but that’s only in cases where the player’s being an insufferable cunt and even then it’s rare

what happened to you

i got a 14 day ban for saying "i just wanted to play the fucking game", as was established in my appeal

[sinfulbliss]

im not thanking him for the ban im thanking him for shortening it 4 days in response to my appeal you goobers

You shouldn’t have thanked him at all. It’s like someone taking a shit on your chest, begrudgingly wiping half the shit off after you complain, and then thanking them for their hospitality.

admins can, have, and will extend bans if they think someone is being disrespectful in their appeal.

pretty sure that has never happened
headmins can extend it but that’s only in cases where the player’s being an insufferable cunt and even then it’s rare

what happened to you

i got a 14 day ban for saying "i just wanted to play the fucking game", as was established in my appeal

no i mean in the past you totally would have stood up for yourself here

it seems like you’re taking a shitty deal because you’re afraid of the ban getting extended

[Super Aggro Crag]

im not thanking him for the ban im thanking him for shortening it 4 days in response to my appeal you goobers

You shouldn’t have thanked him at all. It’s like someone taking a shit on your chest, begrudgingly wiping half the shit off after you complain, and then thanking them for their hospitality.

admins can, have, and will extend bans if they think someone is being disrespectful in their appeal.

pretty sure that has never happened
headmins can extend it but that’s only in cases where the player’s being an insufferable cunt and even then it’s rare

what happened to you

i got a 14 day ban for saying "i just wanted to play the fucking game", as was established in my appeal

no i mean in the past you totally would have stood up for yourself here

it seems like you’re taking a shitty deal because you’re afraid of the ban getting extended

as i said earlier a headmin already approved the 14 day ban, i'd have to get all 3 headmins in the same place at the same time and convince them to overturn it, and the administrative staff has made it clear they're looking for an excuse to permanently remove me from the community. really rather not get fucking permabanned for sperging over an ooc in ic ban

[sinfulbliss]

im not thanking him for the ban im thanking him for shortening it 4 days in response to my appeal you goobers

You shouldn’t have thanked him at all. It’s like someone taking a shit on your chest, begrudgingly wiping half the shit off after you complain, and then thanking them for their hospitality.

admins can, have, and will extend bans if they think someone is being disrespectful in their appeal.

pretty sure that has never happened
headmins can extend it but that’s only in cases where the player’s being an insufferable cunt and even then it’s rare

what happened to you

i got a 14 day ban for saying "i just wanted to play the fucking game", as was established in my appeal

no i mean in the past you totally would have stood up for yourself here

it seems like you’re taking a shitty deal because you’re afraid of the ban getting extended

as i said earlier a headmin already approved the 14 day ban, i'd have to get all 3 headmins in the same place at the same time and convince them to overturn it, and the administrative staff has made it clear they're looking for an excuse to permanently remove me from the community. really rather not get fucking permabanned for sperging over an ooc in ic ban

that’s regrettable but fair

[AsbestosSniffer]

I don't like this ban

I don't think there's anyone here that does except the banning admin in question and a headmin Crag mentioned.

[conrad]

this thread rules but im too busy playing nethack to read it

ayo nethack is dope

[Constellado]

the administrative staff has made it clear they're looking for an excuse to permanently remove me from the community. really rather not get fucking permabanned for sperging over an ooc in ic ban

I REALLY hope that ain't true. You are a very good roleplayer from what I have seen. If I can get a specific vibe from a character that screams: "yes this is an interesting character I want to interact with." That is very good. And I got that. I have been able to do library RP with crag for a whole round. Was very enjoyable. You cannot do that with most players. They usually get bored and walk away when you start commenting on an artwork or whatnot. Not Crag.

I really hope admins are not looking for an excuse to permanently ban you. Heck, if they are, there is something very wrong going on in in the admin team. And I have trust in this admin team, it should not be the case. I personally think you may be overthinking things.

But again, you did get a week ban for OOC in IC. (After appealing)

God damnit.

[Bawhoppennn]

I mean I wish it were not true either but it's unfortunately been obvious there's been an effort to build a case against Crag for months

He literally got a 2 week initial ban for OOC in IC, so I don't think much else needs to be said

[TheRex9001]

2 weeks for ooc in IC? Seems a bit harsh

[dirk_mcblade]

I think it'd be more fair to put crag on a team antag ban than any sort of server ban, but I still think refusing to play team antag ruins the game and therefore deserves some kind of correction. Go set up your own private server if you just want to do surgeries without interacting with the server's game mode.

[conrad]

Go set up your own private server

I know you don't mean this and is using it to fuel the flames of hatred but this is a very unproductive way of fixing a problem.

[dirk_mcblade]

Go set up your own private server

I know you don't mean this and is using it to fuel the flames of hatred but this is a very unproductive way of fixing a problem.

What problem? The fact that team antags exist in an online game?
I've set up my own server before when I wanted to experiment on my own concerning atmospherics without being disturbed. Otherwise I accept that someone might fuck up the SM engine and get the shuttle called early, a ling might murder me, or any other possibility outside of a controlled single player environment. It's a multiplayer game.
That's a "you problem" if you play outside of lowpop enough that you get pissed off that high pop game modes ruin it for you. I've never sabotaged a round willfully for another teammate, and I don't think that's a high level of expectation for someone, but I've had at least a few times where teammates have intentionally thrown the match for me. Considering they could play on bagil where it's always lowpop and not have that team antag problem I don't see why it's their teammate's problem.

[Super Aggro Crag]

dirk can you do me a favor and stop talking please, the situation has been resolved, ban requests isn't a forum anymore, stop trying to turn funnylights into instant round removal because you're salty that people don't immediately jihad sec for 72 virgins

[Fren256]

See this is why we should keep Crag around, always shits on people in the funniest way imaginable

[Super Aggro Crag]

like im not trying to be an asshole here fren256 but if the cause of the ban is "crag gets too mad that he can't play the game as the job class he signed up for" then making the funny light just instantly fucking ghost me and give some pinhead observer main control of my character is going to make me even more fucking angry because at least there's a possibility the rev head won't be a fucking absolute crybaby and ahelp me for reviving/healing potential converts instead of rushing sec with a scalpel as a FRAIL, GLASS JAW, SPACER on ICEBOX. literally one disabler bolt will cause me to EXPLODE INTO PASTA

[Timberpoes]

It better be copypasta. And it better taste delicious.

[Super Aggro Crag]

It better be copypasta. And it better taste delicious.

For me, it's Manuel. The best tgstation server. I even ask for shortened ban length and the staff is so friendly and more than willing to oblige.

One time I asked for time off a 14 day ban and they gave me six days removed. I said, "Wow, six-for-ooc-icks!!" and the nice friendly administrator laughed and said, "I'm going to call you "six-for-ooc-icks!"

Now the staff greets me with "hey it's six-for-ooc-icks!" and ALWAYS give me extra long bans. It's such a fun and cool atmosphere at my local Manuel server, I go there at least 3 times a week when my ban is up for a dynamic antag round where I get instantly facerolled instead of roleplaying, 1-2 times for greenshift on the weekend, and maybe once for rev tide when I'm in a rush but want a great round that is affordable, over in 15 minutes, and can match my daily nutritional needs for salt intake.

I even post my salt in my own peanut thread, it's delicious! What a great server.

[celularLAmp]

the idea that a rev could flash you and then you can't play rest of the round would make me just go anti revs each time

ngl though conversion antags aren't fun and the way we deal with this issue is by.. giving up players control when they get converted? idk people have been complaning about these antags for years (I still prefer clock cults conversion over blood cults)

you know we remove shit like old gangs because it's too TDM or this or that is too steamrolly but still alot of the antags in this game are still steamrolly which honestly is just how it's gonna be in a multiplayer top down clicker game that has stun combat and people of various experience. You can't balance it fully and idk maybe we should be more creative with solutions rather than trying to find a perfect one.

[Sightld2]

I even post my salt in my own peanut thread, it's delicious! What a great server.

Look, I was under the impression we were both content with this. If you're not, then I think you should still appeal past me to the headmins. If not this term than the next. My understanding was that it wouldn't be helpful to you at the time, but my entire point here was to establish that notes are going to escalate. So it IS helpful to you, if this one were to ultimately wind up removed, even if its in a couple months.

My intention was not and is not, to "build a case for Crag to get permabanned over ick ock"

[Super Aggro Crag]

I even post my salt in my own peanut thread, it's delicious! What a great server.

Look, I was under the impression we were both content with this. If you're not, then I think you should still appeal past me to the headmins. If not this term than the next. My understanding was that it wouldn't be helpful to you at the time, but my entire point here was to establish that notes are going to escalate. So it IS helpful to you, if this one were to ultimately wind up removed, even if its in a couple months.

My intention was not and is not, to "build a case for Crag to get permabanned over ick ock"

one of the headmins already told me the appeal would be rejected if i did that so i am still allowed to be upset

[Sightld2]

one of the headmins already told me the appeal would be rejected if i did that so i am still allowed to be upset

Right, sorry I didn't mean to imply you couldn't.

[Super Aggro Crag]

whatever. it sucks. i'm just going to get permabanned because some 18 year old admin candidate will see a note from 10 years ago and say THIS MAN IS A BLIGHT UPON OUR COMMUNITY AND MUST BE ERADICATED and once he permabans me he'll get voted in as headmin for life cuz i'm apparently the worst fucking person who ever played this game.

[Constellado]

That whole conversation just makes me angry.

I feel there will be no happy resolution to the fact that a good faith player that I like playing with is getting a week ban (after appealing) for OOC in IC. Because of reputation or something? Because they have lots of notes for a similar thing over YEARS? Yet this time the OOC in IC is almost edge case anyway? (It's not like crag is saying amogus or something, ya know?)

Please crag! There are three headmins for a reason! They may not overturn the note(it is fair technically) but may say bad admin for such a long ban time.

I just damn hope it doesn't keep going down the admin escalating bans till permaban. If that happens I will riot.

[oranges]

We don't always choose the reputation we end up with, but we do have to live with it.

There is very little you can do to repair a reputation other than try to demonstrate different behaviour over a long period of time.

Well, other than coming up with a new identity, but then you have a different game of reputation building to engage in.

[Super Aggro Crag]

it doesnt matter if i demonstrate different behavior over a long period of time because some janitor will see a note from before they were even able to use the toilet on their own and decide it is still a Raw, Fresh Wound and my existence is pouring salt in it and I must be told to bite the curb and stomped for the greater good of their ego. nothing i do matters because notes matter unless the admin decides they don't, because the system is completely arbitrary and the admin team can't agree on any type of enforcement for anything.

[Constellado]

We don't always choose the reputation we end up with, but we do have to live with it.

There is very little you can do to repair a reputation other than try to demonstrate different behaviour over a long period of time.

Well, other than coming up with a new identity, but then you have a different game of reputation building to engage in.

The problem here is the reputation is very different in game with players in Manuel than with the admins, from what I can see here. Again. I hope this is actually not the case.
I remember a player asking crag in discord "hey can you teach me cooking next round we are together?" That's a sign of good reputation within players. I haven't seen a complaint about crags characters in game in my time playing.

If there is a difference between how admins see a player, and players see a player, there is something wrong with the system.

[oranges]

Well there is definitely a difference in how players and admins percieve people.

admins perception is going to be coloured by the user note history and past admin interactions that they get reports of in adminbus.

[celularLAmp]

speaking of the topic of notes and all of this I think

- all notes and convos with admins should be public 2 everyone.. transparency is important in ss13 esp since of the gap between admins and players and coders we have
- admins are allowed but dont have to actually let you know. being told that something is "dealt with" is always annoying and makes my paranoid ass think that they are lying TO ME.

[TheRex9001]

speaking of the topic of notes and all of this I think

- all notes and convos with admins should be public 2 everyone.. transparency is important in ss13 esp since of the gap between admins and players and coders we have
- admins are allowed but dont have to actually let you know. being told that something is "dealt with" is always annoying and makes my paranoid ass think that they are lying TO ME.

Low quality bait

[CMDR_Gungnir]

whatever. it sucks. i'm just going to get permabanned because some 18 year old admin candidate will see a note from 10 years ago and say THIS MAN IS A BLIGHT UPON OUR COMMUNITY AND MUST BE ERADICATED and once he permabans me he'll get voted in as headmin for life cuz i'm apparently the worst fucking person who ever played this game.

This is the prime example for my opinion.

Crag's genuinely putting in effort to try and be better and to improve, and history will always be held against him.

Don't admins keep saying "Admins usually won't even look at a note over 6 months old" and yet they're being held against him from years back. Someone as active as Crag would amass more than enough within that 6 month period that you shouldn't need to reach back.

So why bother trying to improve? It's not like it matters, if the past gets held over him forever anyway.

[Sightld2]

Only the latest note before mine was factored into my decision to place it as well as its length. I didn't look any further back until the appeal, at which point their use was not the same.

[oranges]

Only the latest note before mine was factored into my decision to place it as well as its length. I didn't look any further back until the appeal, at which point their use was not the same.

Why did you bring them up in the appeal then? It seems counterintuitive that you would mention them if only the most recent one factored in.

[Sightld2]

Why did you bring them up in the appeal then? It seems counterintuitive that you would mention them if only the most recent one factored in.

I understand now that that was immensely confusing after a discussion in Bus. My point in bringing them up was to defend why I thought the ban should stay, which I consider different to placing it to begin with.

I brought them up the paragraph after this line:

But can you offer me anything to suggest this really won't happen again? When it already has? Again and Again?

As a defense to why I think it should stay, and mainly, why I would be disinclined to immediately and wholeheartedly trust an "I'm sorry, this won't happen again."

[sinfulbliss]

it doesnt matter if i demonstrate different behavior over a long period of time because some janitor will see a note from before they were even able to use the toilet on their own and decide it is still a Raw, Fresh Wound and my existence is pouring salt in it and I must be told to bite the curb and stomped for the greater good of their ego. nothing i do matters because notes matter unless the admin decides they don't, because the system is completely arbitrary and the admin team can't agree on any type of enforcement for anything.

fax. they simply CANNOT help themselves.

TWO YEARS? DIGGING TWO YEARS FOR AN ICK OCK NOTE TO JUSTIFY THE BAN? sorry.. “KEEPING” THE BAN

until notes are literally struck from the record and expired, they will ALWAYS be used, will ALWAYS factor into an admin’s decision, either directly as in this case or subconsciously by coloring the admin’s view of the player

[Super Aggro Crag]

fuck it

[dendydoom]

in my honest opinion it's an easy mistake (but still a mistake nonetheless) to assume all admins form some kind of agreeable hivemind around every decision. every discussion that comes up in adminbus is beautifully productive because almost always people are disagreeing and making their case on it. if you think my forum posts are long-winded, then you should try an evening in bus. there have been times when i've participated in a discussion, gone to bed, woken up, and the discussion is still ongoing over the exact same topic.

there are lots of admins, we all have way too much spare time on our hands and love getting into disputes. there will be admins that will pushback against a ruling that they see as unjustified or unfair, and will fight it on behalf of any player, including crag in those discussions.

as for notes, most admins will skim the most recent ones, others will view the full history. notes do fade, but there is a button you can press to open up a new window with the full history of notes. sometimes i don't even open someone's notes at all because the current situation isn't serious enough to even warrant it. i am looking to understand why something happened and then resolve it, not search for a reason to punish from the outset.

good luck with the appeal, crag.

[RedBaronFlyer]

It's so baffling that Craig seems to be “down range” as it were because he’s one of the better Manuel players IMO (even if I don't see him a lot.)

Like, yeah, Craig can be a bit of a hothead but at least it makes sense when he’s frustrated. It's not like he’s calling people retards every five seconds or anything.

Notes fading doesn't even matter because subconsciously admins are going to be more likely to escalate if someone has a history of notes, even if the notes were six months ago. A “technically clean record if you just ignore anything six months ago” isn't remotely the same as “has literally never gotten a note” and it never will be as long as notes don't expire.