I regret voting for Timberpoes

[ekaterina]

Bottom post of the previous page:

I just read one of the dumbest rulings ever made on tgstation. viewtopic.php?p=695750#p695750.

What the fuck does "can't use it to fight back" even mean? Expecting a player to just sit there and let himself be beaten is absolutely immersion-breaking. It's beyond stupid.

Even if that wording doesn't actually mean that and I just misinterpreted it, this is still an awful ruling. Something as trivial and basic as calling a ligger that resulting in something as major as a player being "valid" is absurd!

[ekaterina]

No; this is funnier.

How is baiting people who don't know about a dumb ruling like this into making themselves valid "funnier"?

no new player is going to independently decide to say that unless they see someone else do it

You mean like in the thousand SS13 videos that people can watch on YouTube from before this ruling?
And that's not even mentioning returning players or even existing players who don't read the policy threads.

[Lacran]

Timber isn't trying to discourage ingame racism, they are trying to discourage people's actual RL racism leaking into the game.

It's good to see a reasonable argument presented at last.
There's nothing wrong with this goal, but there is something very wrong with the way he's going about it.

Its hard to discourage something done ICly, that could also be just genuinely IRL racist.

Options I could think of are:

1. Words like ligger are banned.

I think this is the worst option, because its a part of server culture now, the only issue is when its used as a medium for actual racism.

2. Ban words like ligger if admins THINK its being used for thinly veiled racism.

This is incredibly hard to do, as admins can be overzealous and others can be so scared of the appeals and drama their personal interpretations could cause that this wont be enforced at all. This is like a Quality control ban but even more controversial.

3. Make players valid for using ingame no-no words but not general rp racism.
This seems to be timbers approach, that determining the punishment is largely in the hands fo the recipeient or observer, and that using those words runs the risk of death.

4. Make it against space law.
I guess we could do a hate speech law, which roleplay wise is valid, but I think having sec police racism is incredibly fucking lame.

[WineAllWine]

other than finding it weird that you think people's personal opinions have any bearing on whether they're "admin-candidate-material" or not.

What? of course we take player's opinions into account before we decide to admin them. I'm surprised that you thought we'd ignore opinions?

[ekaterina]

1. Words like ligger are banned. I think this is the worst option, because its a part of server culture now, the only issue is when its used as a medium for actual racism.
3. Make players valid for using ingame no-no words but not general rp racism. This seems to be timbers approach, that determining the punishment is largely in the hands fo the recipeient or observer, and that using those words runs the risk of death.

The word is, de facto, banned, but in a messy and contrived way that screws over players for simply not knowing about a new policy that makes no sense, and sets them up to be accused of EsCalAtiON bAiTinG when they obviously fight back against a seemingly unprovoked attack. I'd rather it just be added to either the soft or hard filter if the headmins really want to get rid of it. Instead, Timber rules on policy because "it's funny".

What? of course we take player's opinions into account before we decide to admin them. I'm surprised that you thought we'd ignore opinions?

Discrimination on the basis of political opinion is illegal in my jurisdiction, why would you expect that I'd think it normal or be used to it (including its spessman equivalent)?

[Lacran]

Discrimination on the basis of political opinion is illegal in my jurisdiction, why would you expect that I'd think it normal or be used to it (including its spessman equivalent)?

Because employment law doesn't extend to being an unpaid jannie in a community. Its a basic social norm.

The word is, de facto, banned, but in a messy and contrived way that screws over players for simply not knowing about a new policy that makes no sense, and sets them up to be accused of EsCalAtiON bAiTinG when they obviously fight back against a seemingly unprovoked attack. I'd rather it just be added to either the soft or hard filter if the headmins really want to get rid of it. Instead, Timber rules on policy because "it's funny".

The difference being you can do it, but if you do you are now subject to restrictions. this way you are putting the power back in the recipients hands and taking it away from the person that said the no-no word.

its like saying players that aren't allowed to lethally escalate if they were the agressor is a "de-facto ban" its not.

[Bawhoppennn]

What? of course we take player's opinions into account before we decide to admin them. I'm surprised that you thought we'd ignore opinions?

Discrimination on the basis of political opinion is illegal in my jurisdiction, why would you expect that I'd think it normal or be used to it (including its spessman equivalent)?

I'm not sure how you managed to make the simultaneously best and worst comeback in history, but it has been accomplished, and you win a gold star for it

[ekaterina]

Discrimination on the basis of political opinion is illegal in my jurisdiction, why would you expect that I'd think it normal or be used to it (including its spessman equivalent)?

Because employment law doesn't extend to being an unpaid jannie in a community.

No, but the question was whether I was surprised by WineAllWine's revelation. Obviously what surprises me is molded by what surrounds me (or, more accurately, what doesn't).

Its a basic social norm.

What is?

this way you are putting the power back in the recipients hands and taking it away from the person that said the no-no word.

That would be fine and dandy, except for the other player not being allowed to fight back. It's retarded, you don't just suddenly not fight back against an attempt to kill you because someone may or may not have been provoked by your words. Preventing some imaginary boogeyman "escalation baiting" isn't more important than making policy and stories that make some damn sense.
It practically means you can only use the word 'ligger' if you're an antag, in which case you were valid already and can fight back anyway.

its like saying players that aren't allowed to lethally escalate if they were the agressor is a "de-facto ban" its not.

Calling someone a ligger isn't an aggression.
It's taking the power away from the person actually being attacked.

[Lacran]

Its a basic social norm.

What is?

Its a social norm that people trust and percieve you diferently based on your personal opinions, and will treat you differently due to them. This will impact you getting positions within a community. Its why people don't understand your surprise. Because you values and opinions affect your eligibility in the eyes of literally anyone. Political opinions notbeing relevant for job eligibility doesn't mean it wont cost you other social oppurtinities. Political are also distinct from personal.

That would be fine and dandy, except for the other player not being allowed to fight back. It's retarded, you don't just suddenly not fight back against an attempt to kill you because someone may or may not have been provoked by your words. Preventing some imaginary boogeyman "escalation baiting" isn't more important than making policy and stories that make some damn sense.
It practically means you can only use the word 'ligger' if you're an antag, in which case you were valid already and can fight back anyway.

The point here is that if you use irl veiled racism as a story telling device a part of that story is you now get valided. and you can't get away with it just by being robust. If that's not an outcome people want they can simply choose to not do it. as this restriction only applies if they are basing their racism off irl racism which you shouldn't really be doing anyway.

[Archie700]

Well you wanted more situations handled IC so you got it.

Being killed and spaced by a lizard for calling them the l-word is the most IC Issue thing ever.

[Boot]

Well you wanted more situations handled IC so you got it.

Being killed and spaced by a lizard for calling them the l-word is the most IC Issue thing ever.

When can I start killing and spacing people for calling me a lightbulb?

[EmpressMaia]

Fuck off racist

[Boot]

Honestly manual players shouldn't even be allowed in players club.

[Jackraxxus]

Manual players when automatic players walk in

[Jacquerel]

What? of course we take player's opinions into account before we decide to admin them. I'm surprised that you thought we'd ignore opinions?

Discrimination on the basis of political opinion is illegal in my jurisdiction, why would you expect that I'd think it normal or be used to it (including its spessman equivalent)?

I legitimately think this needs to be put in some kind of hall of fame

[Jonathan Gupta]

this thread is the worst bait ever, using slurs in ss13 is just low effort Ooooh liggers ooooh look at me Im using X slur

[Jonathan Gupta]

1. Words like ligger are banned.

I think this is the worst option, because its a part of server culture now,

Tg server culture sucks I believe, I don't think thats a good fucking excuse to have ligger used bro

[sinfulbliss]

I don’t think I’m going to be saying ligger much but on the off-chance I do and get attacked I will absolutely defend myself. Seems pretty dumb to just let yourself be killed

[dirk_mcblade]

I'm not sure it's the worst kind of escalation bait because the opposing party can choose not to attack them. Or they could wait later to ambush them unexpectedly.
But I think it should be noted if they succeed in killing the attacker just so if they establish a pattern of doing this often they could be banned as a QC measure due to them annoying the server at large for a long time.
It's not like self defense baiting would be a novel concept on story telling: https://youtu.be/_5zvew0YvOY

[Fren256]

If you're angry at this ruling then that means we're on the right track. Of course it'd be far much better to simply ban the usage of those words, but since the host's libercuckian beliefs prevent that from happening this is the best we can achieve, at least for now.

[MooCow12]

Escalation bait is its own separate issue that can be tracked in the long term, this is just an individual way it can happen.


We should have remembered what we learned with Reider, he became twitchy, the playerbase knew what got him to fire lethals, we formed crowds and approached upon him and he fired, some of us used that as an excuse to lynch him. Escalation scales so much faster between groups of people than two individuals, and the same is true when only one party is a crowd, now how many people do you open yourself up to escalation when you say the L word, the person its directed at? everyone that can hear it? Everyone that gets told you said it? and how many people will jump to protect a head of staff or security officer when they say it, are the other sec officers defending them valid, or are they just doing their job and untouchable, we still do not have the answers to that.

[NecromancerAnne]

I don’t think I’m going to be saying ligger much but on the off-chance I do and get attacked I will absolutely defend myself. Seems pretty dumb to just let yourself be killed

Don't break the rules intentionally because you disagree with a ruling. Willfully breaking the rules is viewed far worse than accidental. Especially if you demonstrate prior knowledge (like this post I just quoted) of the ruling.

Applies to ekat as well. Or anyone really. Don't fuck around to then find out. :U

[Boot]

Ok but what if we just say ligga does that make you valid?

[Unsane]

yes

[TheRex9001]

I’ll just say it here, the reason ”ligger” isnt banned is because it has special protection status from MSO. Invention of any similar slurs is a fast way to get yourself banned (ex nyaggers, megroes etc) are words that have landed people longer bans previously.

[MrStonedOne]

Any time we have had a thing turn you valid, we have banned people who use that to start fights and win them, or people who use that to start fights than admin help losing.

Reading WGW and getting lynched was allowed, but people who won the fights they started frequently got bans for kill baiting.

This is nothing new and is inline with my strategy of keeping the old soul of /tg/ alive.

[sinfulbliss]

I don’t think I’m going to be saying ligger much but on the off-chance I do and get attacked I will absolutely defend myself. Seems pretty dumb to just let yourself be killed

Don't break the rules intentionally because you disagree with a ruling. Willfully breaking the rules is viewed far worse than accidental. Especially if you demonstrate prior knowledge (like this post I just quoted) of the ruling.

Applies to ekat as well. Or anyone really. Don't fuck around to then find out. :U

if i say the L word in the future (10% chance), AND someone tries to kill me for it (10% chance), AND i can’t defend myself practically nonlethally (20% chance), THEN i will opt to respond with lethal force. if they THEN ahelp (20% chance), AND an admin is online (50% chance), I will accept whatever happens

that is a 0.02%, or a 1 in 5000, chance of this happening. i’m ok with those odds

[sinfulbliss]

Any time we have had a thing turn you valid, we have banned people who use that to start fights and win them, or people who use that to start fights than admin help losing.

Reading WGW and getting lynched was allowed, but people who won the fights they started frequently got bans for kill baiting.

This is nothing new and is inline with my strategy of keeping the old soul of /tg/ alive.

Saying “ligger” to a lizard player you're in a heated verbal conflict with is sort of different from broadcasting Toy Story smut to several dozen people over comms.

I would say the former is not killbaiting in some contexts. I.e., going up to lizard after lizard and calling them a ligger then killing the ones that attack you for it IS kill baiting, but saying it to one who you’re in a conflict with after they called you a cocksucker, then killing them in self defense, is definitely not killbaiting.

For those situations where it isn’t killbaiting, I find it completely ridiculous to suggest you bend over and let them RR you — I think common sense says this ruling would not apply there.

[Longestarmlonglaw]

Imagine if you are in a hostile environment like space/plasmafire, You didnt space the area/plasmaflood, you are just vibing in there with a space suit/atmos modsuit.
You say ligger or whatever, a dumb lizard rushes into space/the fire to try and kill you, fails and dies because they you know, ran into space/a plasmafire.
They cry in ahelps that you killed them. BRUH, maybe dont rush into hostile environments

[TheRex9001]

Imagine if you are in a hostile environment like space/plasmafire, You didnt space the area/plasmaflood, you are just vibing in there with a space suit/atmos modsuit.
You say ligger or whatever, a dumb lizard rushes into space/the fire to try and kill you, fails and dies because they you know, ran into space/a plasmafire.
They cry in ahelps that you killed them. BRUH, maybe dont rush into hostile environments

Mental gymnastics Olympian

[Bmon]

stay winning manuel

[nianjiilical]

i think this thread is proving that theres a fundamental misalignment with certain forum posters who simply do not understand that racial slurs are bad

[Not-Dorsidarf]

traditional SS13 fictional slur

[Kendrickorium]

i think this thread is proving that theres a fundamental misalignment with certain forum posters who simply do not understand that racial slurs are bad

no, they understand it, they are likely just used to an era of internet gaming where saying or using them was widely acceptable

i'm pretty sure i said more than my fair shit of slurs on hippiestation, and dont get me started about the internet before that, a lot of people, a LOT, know what i'm talking about
I still miss WGW because it reminds me of an era long past, but some things are meant to fall by the wayside
if youre in a part of the internet where no one gives a shit, fine, but its different here.


I honestly never thought i'd be able to describe myself as being part of an "inclusive" community, but, here I am, doing just fine and hoping everyone is just having fun

[dendydoom]

Calling a lizard a "ligger" is no different to me to calling a plasmaman a "plasmeme" or calling borgs "silly cones". It's a funny alternative name. Yet we have people like Vekter and Fren255 being all weird about it.

if your entire argument is predicated by the notion that it's fundamentally not an insult or a slur that was already an inciteful level of fighting words before this ruling was ever made then this discussion will be pointless until you recognize that the vast majority of the community disagree with you.

MSO has stated before (i'm too lazy to look the actual posts up so feel free to correct this with actual quotes) that he doesn't like the filter being used to save people from their own bad decisions and doesn't want certain words to be an automatic ban in every context. so it is being resolved the IC route. you do the thing IC, you open yourself up to the consequences IC. that is not "de facto" banned because you will not be banned for saying it. it is "de facto" a bad decision that people can retaliate against ICly. in fact (de facto), it is protected against being banned for saying it because now it's resolved as an IC issue. lots of actions are already resolved this way in-game.

[Timberpoes]

It honestly is my favourite thread. It has everyone and everything in it. Like a rainbow coalition of 2023 tgstation's community cross-section.

If we're still going in a decade and someone wonders what tgstation was about 10 years prior, this is the thread to show them.

[Kendrickorium]

seems like a nice place to lock the thread

[conrad]

What? of course we take player's opinions into account before we decide to admin them. I'm surprised that you thought we'd ignore opinions?

Discrimination on the basis of political opinion is illegal in my jurisdiction, why would you expect that I'd think it normal or be used to it (including its spessman equivalent)?

Guys, ok, this might just be me, but I think Ekaterina takes the space game way too seriously.

Am I crazy?

[NecromancerAnne]

that is a 0.02%, or a 1 in 5000, chance of this happening. i’m ok with those odds

The majority of us playing right now all agreed to the rules as a social contract to make the game as enjoyable as it can be for everyone for what it has to offer. Because, ultimately, it is a game and we want to make it fun while being fair on everyone playing it in good faith. This includes taking the occasional asswhooping for certain actions you bring upon yourself but are allowed to do (the aforementioned 'soul' as stated by MSO). If you cannot agree to this social contract, why are you here? What is fair on you, and why is this social contract not allowed to be altered if you are to be affected by its alteration? What motivation do you have to play, and what place does anyone else have in this equation that isn't yourself?

You don't have to run the risk assessment and roll the dice by just trying to follow along with this agreement. There is also a sentiment that people aren't perfect at following the rules to begin with, and that those people trying and failing deserve to be given a fair shake in good faith. If what you have said is true, have you not basically removed any doubt about your intentions and consideration for this social contract by saying you're going to play chicken with admins until you get banned? What good does that do anyone, including yourself? What if, hypothetically, you did get banned for it, even if by your own perception it seems unlikely? What would you do after that?

[AnonymousForumUser]

Its like speaking as a mime and makes you valid, I imagine.

if you say it as a mime, would that make you double-valid or does it cancel out?

[kinnebian]

Its like speaking as a mime and makes you valid, I imagine.

if you say it as a mime, would that make you double-valid or does it cancel out?

double negative, it actually gives you security metaprotections

[TheLoLSwat]

What? of course we take player's opinions into account before we decide to admin them. I'm surprised that you thought we'd ignore opinions?

Discrimination on the basis of political opinion is illegal in my jurisdiction, why would you expect that I'd think it normal or be used to it (including its spessman equivalent)?

Guys, ok, this might just be me, but I think Ekaterina takes the space game way too seriously.

Am I crazy?

It’s specifically the forums Conrad we can’t get ahead of ourselves old fellow

[conrad]

What? of course we take player's opinions into account before we decide to admin them. I'm surprised that you thought we'd ignore opinions?

Discrimination on the basis of political opinion is illegal in my jurisdiction, why would you expect that I'd think it normal or be used to it (including its spessman equivalent)?

Guys, ok, this might just be me, but I think Ekaterina takes the space game way too seriously.

Am I crazy?

It’s specifically the forums Conrad we can’t get ahead of ourselves old fellow

You're right, you're right. huffs copium ya want some?

[ekaterina]

Any time we have had a thing turn you valid, we have banned people who use that to start fights and win them, or people who use that to start fights than admin help losing.
Reading WGW and getting lynched was allowed, but people who won the fights they started frequently got bans for kill baiting.

The operative clause there is "fights they started frequently". Finding people using something to bait fights, even if it does rely on admins' judgement, is not the same as doing this abomination that Timber did, which either assumes everyone who uses this word does it to bait fights or it's knowingly fucking over those who don't.

Its a social norm that people trust and percieve you diferently based on your personal opinions

Where? Definitely not where I live. I hope you realise not every place views these things the same way.

as this restriction only applies if they are basing their racism off irl racism

Not from what I understand. It applies to every instance of using 'ligger'.

Well you wanted more situations handled IC so you got it.
Being killed and spaced by a lizard for calling them the l-word is the most IC Issue thing ever.

Being administratively prevented from fighting back is not "handling a situation IC". If it wasn't for that, I could agree.
Liggers fucking around by going apeshit over hearing a word and either winning or losing the fight is one thing, but forcing people to not fight back, thus ensuring the ligger wins, is another - it's a de facto one round ban.

I don’t think I’m going to be saying ligger much but on the off-chance I do and get attacked I will absolutely defend myself. Seems pretty dumb to just let yourself be killed

Don't break the rules intentionally because you disagree with a ruling.

You don't have to have intent to break a ruling this dumb. That's part of why it's so dumb. You can just be doing what you normally do, get attacked by some retard, fight back (the obvious default response to being attacked) (you are in a combat situation that requires focus, your mind is not thinking about rulings), and end up having broken a retarded ruling. It's not "common sense", like most rules are, to not fight back - quite the opposite.

i think this thread is proving that theres a fundamental misalignment with certain forum posters who simply do not understand that racial slurs are bad

Let me fix that for you: certain forum posters simply do not care that you think that fictional slurs are bad.

no, they understand it, they are likely just used to an era of internet gaming where saying or using them was widely acceptable

Well said, this too.

that is not "de facto" banned because you will not be banned for saying it

It is a de facto round-length ban, because Timber went into nonsense territory by ruling you "can't fight back". Otherwise it would simply be a bad ruling I disagree with. This makes it a mind-numbingly dumb ruling.

Guys, ok, this might just be me, but I think Ekaterina takes the space game way too seriously.

Not the game itself, I think you mean the administrative mechanisms around the game. They need to be taken seriously. Good or bad administration makes or breaks a server.

[conrad]

Its a social norm that people trust and percieve you diferently based on your personal opinions

Where? Definitely not where I live. I hope you realise not every place views these things the same way.

Nobody cares and nobody should care about where you live. You're part of a community on /tg/, which has its own culture. You can't fault people by going "that's not how it works in my country".

That being said, if where you live people don't perceive you and form opinions based on your demeanour, you must live alone inside Plato's allegory of the cave, 'cos that's the baseline of human social interaction.

[ekaterina]

You can't fault people by going "that's not how it works in my country".

I can when the object of discussion is what surprises me or doesn't surprise me.

That being said, if where you live people don't perceive you and form opinions based on your demeanour

You're the one bringing that unrelated concept up. I mentioned political opinions, Lacran mentioned personal opinions.

[conrad]

Now you have to be baiting.

[AnonymousForumUser]

[...]

While we're here though, Can we talk about your whole deal? Like, you behave perfectly respectably on Terry, yet you have the most weird forum takes.
In-game you're not far off admin-candidate-material, is it just you forget to take your meds when you log into the forums?

I don't know how to answer that, other than finding it weird that you think people's personal opinions have any bearing on whether they're "admin-candidate-material" or not.

[...]

Admins have a lot of leeway in how they enforce the rules, there's no definitive rulebook on what will get you banned and for how long. So it's not that weird that your opinions on what admins should or should not be doing can weigh in on whether someone would consider you admin-candidate-material.

[TypicalRig]

Imagine if you are in a hostile environment like space/plasmafire, You didnt space the area/plasmaflood, you are just vibing in there with a space suit/atmos modsuit.
You say ligger or whatever, a dumb lizard rushes into space/the fire to try and kill you, fails and dies because they you know, ran into space/a plasmafire.
They cry in ahelps that you killed them. BRUH, maybe dont rush into hostile environments

Imagine you are playing on your favourite TG station and you encounter a friendly group of lizards. But suddenly, a man holds a gun up to you irl and screams "Call them liggers right now or I'll blow your fucking brains out." A tear falls down your face, now faced with a moral dilemma. Do I say the L slur, anger these kind lizards, and face certain annihilation with no ability to retaliate? Or do I keep my morality and soul pure by refraining from using the word even at the cost of my own life? You find yourself burdened by such a conundrum and can't help but think "None of this would've ever happened if those stupid admins didn't make that ruling..."

tg players are just practicing their creative writing when they make up these random ass scenarios

[Archie700]

Imagine thinking calling lizards the n-word but with an l is literally the only choice for hatred for lizards.

You could have called them scalies, taildraggers, slitherlips or even just lizard bastards.

[conrad]

Imagine thinking calling lizards the n-word but with an l is literally the only choice for hatred for lizards.

You could have called them scalies, taildraggers, slitherlips or even just lizard bastards.

I call lizard sympathizers gecko fuckers and it never fails to get a healthy, fun lynching.

[Unsane]

Call lizards as forkies or Scalereek