Ban appeal speedrun any% (peanut)

[Fren256]

The round barely ended and you're already making an appeal chill

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=34605

[Super Aggro Crag]

could maia have gulagged them?

[EmpressMaia]

could maia have gulagged them?

The gulagger is currently bugged

[EmpressMaia]

Also the delta station gulagger is right next to the hall so the revs would have shot me if I went there

[Capsandi]

When combat mode was implemented I murderboned as captain and I got away with it cause I told the admin that intents were bugged and they were understanding and explained the new system while i plasmaflooded and recycled the other fireproof hardsuits

[Fren256]

could maia have gulagged them?

The gulagger is currently bugged

Maybe exiling them temporarily* could've worked instead?

*It's very likely you would've forgotten about them tho lol

[Super Aggro Crag]

could maia have gulagged them?

The gulagger is currently bugged

damn

[dendydoom]

a sec ban is a gift not a punishment

[EmpressMaia]

a sec ban is a gift not a punishment

I'm gonna take a sec break If it gets appealed anyway because most of Manny has been cancerous lately

[Super Aggro Crag]

a sec ban is a gift not a punishment

I'm gonna take a sec break If it gets appealed anyway because most of Manny has been cancerous lately

yeah its been bad lately i cried today

[Turbonerd]

Pretty sure revolution is code red worthy. Command and security are supposed to literally powertrip to get crew in line during revolution, and it's totally possible to do that while maintaining RP (and is in fact good RP if done correctly). It doesn't always have to be hugs and timeouts when people are being excessively disobedient and dangerous during a mutiny. Maybe there's more context I'm missing. EmpressMaia kinda did triple post before anyone replied to them, lol.

[Itseasytosee2me]

i think it’s pretty reasonable to kill prisoners who have been attempting to escape during a code red scenario. seems like it makes sense roleplay wise. but idk im very drunk rn

[Cheshify]

Yeah, prisoners escaping with the help of a known syndicate agent while gulag is inaccessible and there's an active revolution? Even on MRP, I don't know why prisoners expect a red carpet treatment if they CHOOSE to escape. Choosing to escape without a damn good cause is a great way to get sec pissed off.

[Cheshify]

Maybe there's context missing? I feel like Isratosh is going to explain themselves well.

[Lacran]

Killing three prisoners after a break out because it's revs and the station is going to shit doesn't sound like play to win, that's a pretty normal situation to use lethal force.

Interested to see isras take.

[BrolyButterfingers]

Yeah there's either some additional, important context to this or this is a bad ban; I've had revolutions as warden/sec/captain where I'm just murdering everyone without a mindshield by the end. This might even be a case of "Notes are a punishment".

IMO almost any scenario that sees the warden in a 1v3 inside the brig qualifies for lethals; suppress it, clean it up and sort it out after. Three adversaries can kill you in a few seconds with their bare hands.

[Fikou]

When combat mode was implemented I murderboned as captain and I got away with it cause I told the admin that intents were bugged and they were understanding and explained the new system while i plasmaflooded and recycled the other fireproof hardsuits

thats mean why would you do that

[sinfulbliss]

Fulptier ban, reminds me of the secbans I’d get on Fulp.

It’s not playing-to-win to choose the ONLY sensible option in the situation. People in perma are almost always also valid for execution, that’s why spacelaw usually says “perma/capital punishment” as options.

If there’s a revolution you don’t have time to fuck around with perma prisoners escaping, and besides, escaping perma itself makes you valid for execution I’m pretty sure??

[Cheshify]

Fulptier ban, reminds me of the secbans I’d get on Fulp.

It’s not playing-to-win to choose the ONLY sensible option in the situation. People in perma are almost always also valid for execution, that’s why spacelaw usually says “perma/capital punishment” as options.

If there’s a revolution you don’t have time to fuck around with perma prisoners escaping, and besides, escaping perma itself makes you valid for execution I’m pretty sure??

Valid isn't really a thing on MRP, and executions should usually be authorized by HOS/Cap outside of very extreme circumstances

[saprasam]

shit ban but there’s an aura of mald in the whole appeal

[sinfulbliss]

Fulptier ban, reminds me of the secbans I’d get on Fulp.

It’s not playing-to-win to choose the ONLY sensible option in the situation. People in perma are almost always also valid for execution, that’s why spacelaw usually says “perma/capital punishment” as options.

If there’s a revolution you don’t have time to fuck around with perma prisoners escaping, and besides, escaping perma itself makes you valid for execution I’m pretty sure??

Valid isn't really a thing on MRP, and executions should usually be authorized by HOS/Cap outside of very extreme circumstances

I was a bit unclear, I didn’t mean valid as in SS13 lingo, I meant valid as in security is authorized to validly execute escaped perma prisoners (I’m fairly sure), particularly in cases where it’s impractical or impossible to arrest all of them.

If you ask me, a rev round in which three perma prisoners escape, one of whom is a tot and the other two of whom are bad enough to get perma, is a situation where lethal force is 100% authorized.

[WineAllWine]

Revs is such a stressful situation for security and heads I allow them to get away with most stuff

[RedBaronFlyer]

shit ban but there’s an aura of mald in the whole appeal

I'd be mad too if this is what happened.

[conrad]

that’s why spacelaw usually says “perma/capital punishment” as options.

Space Law isn't rules enforced. Even on MRP.

...and executions should usually be authorized by HOS/Cap outside of very extreme circumstances

That's Space Law. See above.

I don't think it's wrong to execute difficult prisoners when there's revs on red alert. Ban was bad IMO, but there might be context missing. We await for Isratosh since he might bring light to it.

[Lacran]

that’s why spacelaw usually says “perma/capital punishment” as options.

Space Law isn't rules enforced. Even on MRP.

...and executions should usually be authorized by HOS/Cap outside of very extreme circumstances

That's Space Law. See above.

I don't think it's wrong to execute difficult prisoners when there's revs on red alert. Ban was bad IMO, but there might be context missing. We await for Isratosh since he might bring light to it.

Spacelaw is still used to justify and defend the motive of an action in appeals regarding sec conduct.

A player can point to following space law if accused of "playing to win" because it lends evidence to them simply following their job guidelines.

Timber puts it best that space law is a possible shield for players conduct.

[kinnebian]

tripleposting in your own appeal
doubleposting in your own peanut
is there anything worse, forumbros?

[conrad]

that’s why spacelaw usually says “perma/capital punishment” as options.

Space Law isn't rules enforced. Even on MRP.

...and executions should usually be authorized by HOS/Cap outside of very extreme circumstances

That's Space Law. See above.

I don't think it's wrong to execute difficult prisoners when there's revs on red alert. Ban was bad IMO, but there might be context missing. We await for Isratosh since he might bring light to it.

Spacelaw is still used to justify and defend the motive of an action in appeals regarding sec conduct.

A player can point to following space law if accused of "playing to win" because it lends evidence to them simply following their job guidelines.

Timber puts it best that space law is a possible shield for players conduct.

I agree that it can be a possible shield to player conduct.

I don't agree to use it to ban someone tho. It's cannot be used to enforce rules. And on that note, neither to justify griefing. It's a guideline. Don't use it as a crutch.

[BONERMASTER]

Space law is not a policy, but it is a guideline, it is not actionable but you are held to it's standard, you will not be punished for it, except when you do, but don't quote it in your appeal or you will be laughed at.
Make sense?


With clear regards
-BONERMASTER

[Timberpoes]

...and executions should usually be authorized by HOS/Cap outside of very extreme circumstances

That's Space Law. See above.

RP Rule 3 has a precedent on it.

"When determining severe punishments such as permanent incarceration or execution, make an effort to contact a superior if the situation permits it."

Stems from the Chain of Command being part of Manuel's rules.

[conrad]

Space law is not a policy, but it is a guideline, it is not actionable but you are held to it's standard, you will not be punished for it, except when you do, but don't quote it in your appeal or you will be laughed at.
Make sense?


With clear regards
-BONERMASTER

Make's a ton of sense. Thankyou bonerman

[dendydoom]

my understanding has always been that security have relaxed escalation in a red alert situation. it's how i've always played it, and it's how i guide others when im acting in an admin capacity. i cannot in good conscience punish someone else for something that i would do myself. in MRP, there is an expectation to gain authorizations for executions from command, however, again, in a red alert situation the chain of command can break down. the warden in this instance has command over the brig if it's not possible to easily contact the hos/captain.

it's also my understanding that space law isn't OOCly enforceable because it isn't rules/policy and its wiki page isn't protected. it's a set of RP laws that translate into good OOC guidelines for good faith play. if someone tells me they did something as sec because they were following space law, then most times that's enough of an IC justification that it's already not explicitly a "play-to-win" scenario. it depends on if the situation arose because of a desire to enforce space law, or if they took the action first and then used space law as a justification after the fact. it is usually pretty easy to tell - the common "eotc so i killed them" just to be able to rack up valid kills springs to mind.

[conrad]

...and executions should usually be authorized by HOS/Cap outside of very extreme circumstances

That's Space Law. See above.

RP Rule 3 has a precedent on it.

"When determining severe punishments such as permanent incarceration or execution, make an effort to contact a superior if the situation permits it."

Stems from the Chain of Command being part of Manuel's rules.

That's what I get for opening my big fat mouth to talk about a server I scarcely admin.

Thanks for the reminder Tim🅱er.

[Misdoubtful]

...and executions should usually be authorized by HOS/Cap outside of very extreme circumstances

That's Space Law. See above.

RP Rule 3 has a precedent on it.

"When determining severe punishments such as permanent incarceration or execution, make an effort to contact a superior if the situation permits it."

Stems from the Chain of Command being part of Manuel's rules.

That's what I get for opening my big fat mouth to talk about a server I scarcely admin.

Thanks for the reminder Tim🅱er.

Skill issue

[Timberpoes]

Policy wise?

Ive always treated breaking out of perma as generally execution worthy unless perma is uninhabitable (or there's some other really really really good reason).

The reasoning is that perma is the very last not-fatal punishment sec applies. If you break out of perma, since sec can escalate punishments, it usually ends in death.

I wouldn't ask sec to keep reusing perma for someone that has already escaped from it. Being caught after escaping or trying to escape is usually a brief RP opportunity before you're spirited out of the shift.

[Misdoubtful]

In all honesty, I can really only think of other servers with this one.

Like if you break out of perma on Paradise you are sending yourself on a wild adventure to becoming kill on sight and no one will bat an eye if you die. But that is when they successfully get out.

Obviously the full story isn't here yet though, and I can't really be bothered to look as of now.

[RedBaronFlyer]

my understanding has always been that security have relaxed escalation in a red alert situation. it's how i've always played it, and it's how i guide others when im acting in an admin capacity. i cannot in good conscience punish someone else for something that i would do myself. in MRP, there is an expectation to gain authorizations for executions from command, however, again, in a red alert situation the chain of command can break down. the warden in this instance has command over the brig if it's not possible to easily contact the hos/captain.

it's also my understanding that space law isn't OOCly enforceable because it isn't rules/policy and its wiki page isn't protected. it's a set of RP laws that translate into good OOC guidelines for good faith play. if someone tells me they did something as sec because they were following space law, then most times that's enough of an IC justification that it's already not explicitly a "play-to-win" scenario. it depends on if the situation arose because of a desire to enforce space law, or if they took the action first and then used space law as a justification after the fact. it is usually pretty easy to tell - the common "eotc so i killed them" just to be able to rack up valid kills springs to mind.

I've always taken revs/cult as being a code red situation once they go loud, with it later becoming a code delta situation once it becomes possible that they can win. Breaking out of perma during a revolutionary round where it seems like it's neck and neck or even lopsided against security seems to be a "fuck around and find out" kind of situation for the prisoners.

Obviously, the logs and admin recounting of it will be able to fill in more of the gaps.

[WineAllWine]

tripleposting in your own appeal
doubleposting in your own peanut
is there anything worse, forumbros?

quadruple posting as the opening post for a peanut that is about you and you give it a shit title, when there is an obvious funny one.

[Kendrickorium]

0/10 thread title

manuel bans, amirite?

[Vekter]

Maia appeals every ban she gets because she hopes she'll get lucky and the headmins will overturn it, not because there's any actual ground to stand on regarding whether or not she deserved to be banned.

I guess we'll see the facts on this one when Isratosh gets a chance to post logs, but I'm not hopeful.

E: This was rude and I shouldn't have said it, I apologize to Maia on the next page.

[sinfulbliss]

I want to know why you did not choose to do something like handcuff them to a bed in a cell until mindshields were available or leave them in the permabrig with the lockdown enabled.

This right here is why I find it important admins play at least 30+ hours of sec in the places they admin before banning sec players over conduct.

This is the most impractical thing you could imagine. Revolutions escalate and snowball incredibly fast. Revolution win rate is the highest of all conversion antags, believe it or not, higher than cult. It is a very serious threat to sec. And you’re suggesting she… Handcuff three escaped perma convicts to beds and wait for mindshields? That is simply not going to cut it.

Lastly I would say, I hope they finish it up quickly, for temp bans like this I don’t find it fair for admins to delay the handling of the appeal very long, since the ban itself is only like a few days to begin with.

[dendydoom]

if the hos truly told her to let the prisoners go then it's more concerning to me that they chose to supersede those orders. i personally would be interested in what the IC reasoning was for doing so.

i might have a scour of the logs later if i find the time, this is an interesting situation.

[dirk_mcblade]

tripleposting in your own appeal
doubleposting in your own peanut
is there anything worse, forumbros?

quadruple posting as the opening post for a peanut that is about you and you give it a shit title, when there is an obvious funny one.

0/10 thread title

manuel bans, amirite?

Lizard mains. Their medulla oblongatas are typically abnormally large so they are prone to aggression and jealousy at the expense of other higher functions, which I theorize is why they gravitate towards playing alligators.

[Timberpoes]

Maia appeals every ban she gets because she hopes she'll get lucky and the headmins will overturn it, not because there's any actual ground to stand on regarding whether or not she deserved to be banned.

I guess we'll see the facts on this one when Isratosh gets a chance to post logs, but I'm not hopeful.

On the face of it, it's capable of being overturned.

We have both escaping from perma and a round-defining antag type present and known in revolution.

Escaping from perma almost always allows escalation to execution. We can home in more closely on Maia's choice to ignore the HoS, however...

Round defining antag-types should fundamentally recontextualise the lens through which admins normally view player conduct.

These shifts are designed to be hectic or stressful and put players in more difficult and complex scenarios at the same time, often with competing threats actively out to kill or convert them.

More difficult and complex scenarios mean there's much more room for mistakes, but devoid of any genuine wrongdoing from the player to set up that scenario in the first place.

Accordingly, the inexcusable becomes understandable and the OOC issue often becomes the IC issue.

[EmpressMaia]

Maia appeals every ban she gets because she hopes she'll get lucky and the headmins will overturn it, not because there's any actual ground to stand on regarding whether or not she deserved to be banned.

I guess we'll see the facts on this one when Isratosh gets a chance to post logs, but I'm not hopeful.

fuck you too

[EmpressMaia]

also thats a lie i have like 2 bans i havent appealed because they werre rightfully placed fuck you vekter

[Super Aggro Crag]

damn vekter got owned

[Kendrickorium]

when exactly are you supposed to contact the hos to get permission to execute escaping perma prisoners during a revolution

do admins not understand what executive decisions are

[nickup9]

Escaping from perma almost always allows escalation to execution. We can home in more closely on Maia's choice to ignore the HoS, however...

If the primary issue in the ban is becoming the disobedience of my orders to Roentgen then this ban’s lost its merit, and I’ve likley fucked up massively.

While there were some tactical considerations, such as not pissing off the AI and keeping focus on revs, I was mostly concerned with whether or not re-ed would have been lawful (in terms or rules and policy, not space law) or not.

However it seems that the rules are okay with what Roentgen did in regards to killing escaping prisoners during a revolution. And going through the logs the prisoners were planning to breakout and abuse law 1, plus a borg pulled a prisoner away from Roentgen without any cause or orders, it seems? This might have caused Roentgen to use more direct action. Either way in terms of policy their actions seem to be OK. So my concerns with policy and rules was entierly mistaken.

Even tactically my order was incorrect looking back at it, cause the traitor that was perma’d had some means, but especially motive, to raise hell for Sec and would have had they not been caught. The other two, maybe not as much motive, but they could still have been threats.

While the AI would have been pissed the prisoners were going to use Asimov against sec anyways, and maybe Roentgen cottoned onto that while I didn’t, since I was at cargo securing it. Therefore for safety’s sake getting them out of the picture, then possibly reviving them after the revolution, would be more tactically sound.

Tldr: I’m pretty sure this one’s on me, I fucked up and gave a bad instruction that shouldn’t have been followed to begin with. Wonder if I should toss this in the ban thread proper?

[Kendrickorium]

Escaping from perma almost always allows escalation to execution. We can home in more closely on Maia's choice to ignore the HoS, however...

If the primary issue in the ban is becoming the disobedience of my orders to Roentgen then this ban’s lost its merit, and I’ve likley fucked up massively.

While there were some tactical considerations, such as not pissing off the AI and keeping focus on revs, I was mostly concerned with whether or not re-ed would have been lawful (in terms or rules and policy, not space law) or not.

However it seems that the rules are okay with what Roentgen did in regards to killing escaping prisoners during a revolution. And going through the logs the prisoners were planning to breakout and abuse law 1, plus a borg pulled a prisoner away from Roentgen without any cause or orders, it seems? This might have caused Roentgen to use more direct action. Either way in terms of policy their actions seem to be OK. So my concerns with policy and rules was entierly mistaken.

Even tactically my order was incorrect looking back at it, cause the traitor that was perma’d had some means, but especially motive, to raise hell for Sec and would have had they not been caught. The other two, maybe not as much motive, but they could still have been threats.

While the AI would have been pissed the prisoners were going to use Asimov against sec anyways, and maybe Roentgen cottoned onto that while I didn’t, since I was at cargo securing it. Therefore for safety’s sake getting them out of the picture, then possibly reviving them after the revolution, would be more tactically sound.

Tldr: I’m pretty sure this one’s on me, I fucked up and gave a bad instruction that shouldn’t have been followed to begin with. Wonder if I should toss this in the ban thread proper?

the great thing about appeals is you can rethink previous actions and decide if they were right or wrong. since you were involved in this, your imput would likely help the admins in decision making

[sinfulbliss]

Escaping from perma almost always allows escalation to execution. We can home in more closely on Maia's choice to ignore the HoS, however...

If the primary issue in the ban is becoming the disobedience of my orders to Roentgen then this ban’s lost its merit, and I’ve likley fucked up massively.

While there were some tactical considerations, such as not pissing off the AI and keeping focus on revs, I was mostly concerned with whether or not re-ed would have been lawful (in terms or rules and policy, not space law) or not.

However it seems that the rules are okay with what Roentgen did in regards to killing escaping prisoners during a revolution. And going through the logs the prisoners were planning to breakout and abuse law 1, plus a borg pulled a prisoner away from Roentgen without any cause or orders, it seems? This might have caused Roentgen to use more direct action. Either way in terms of policy their actions seem to be OK. So my concerns with policy and rules was entierly mistaken.

Even tactically my order was incorrect looking back at it, cause the traitor that was perma’d had some means, but especially motive, to raise hell for Sec and would have had they not been caught. The other two, maybe not as much motive, but they could still have been threats.

While the AI would have been pissed the prisoners were going to use Asimov against sec anyways, and maybe Roentgen cottoned onto that while I didn’t, since I was at cargo securing it. Therefore for safety’s sake getting them out of the picture, then possibly reviving them after the revolution, would be more tactically sound.

Tldr: I’m pretty sure this one’s on me, I fucked up and gave a bad instruction that shouldn’t have been followed to begin with. Wonder if I should toss this in the ban thread proper?

you’re allowed to put it in the threat proper since you were involved, go for it