Former president Donald Trump imprisoned over sharing screenshots of nuclear disks over social media platform Discord

[iwishforducks]

Bottom post of the previous page:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=34876

https://tgstation13.org/tgdb/publicbans.php

edit: new appeal viewtopic.php?f=7&t=34908

[kieth4]

Some people defo made an effort to go yo don't do this shit guys but it only happened a couple of times and they just got ignored rlly because of how much it happened. (Their punishment wad less severe)

I'm just gonna point at what Xemo said, that I mentioned in the first one you replied to, because I really can't agree with punishing people just for being there. But also...

We did however, as Fikou mentioned, not lay blanket bans on the entire community. Everything is proportional to information we found in the investigation.

Not rlly ? There were 17 people or smth not 17 bans

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Some people defo made an effort to go yo don't do this shit guys but it only happened a couple of times and they just got ignored rlly because of how much it happened. (Their punishment wad less severe)

I'm just gonna point at what Xemo said, that I mentioned in the first one you replied to, because I really can't agree with punishing people just for being there. But also...

We did however, as Fikou mentioned, not lay blanket bans on the entire community. Everything is proportional to information we found in the investigation.

Not rlly ? There were 17 people or smth not 17 bans

7 permabans, one of which as this appeal is showing, other than TWO INCIDENTS WHEN THEY WERE REALLY NEW LITERALLY TEN FUCKING MONTHS AGO, never partook in the Criminal Actions, and references made to a handful more that weren't perma'd.

This conversation and this peanut has shown one of those 7 was someone whose only fucking crime was being in the server and wanting to have friends. How many more of them are the same?

Fuck this headmin term, and fuck your term.

[kieth4]

Some people defo made an effort to go yo don't do this shit guys but it only happened a couple of times and they just got ignored rlly because of how much it happened. (Their punishment wad less severe)

I'm just gonna point at what Xemo said, that I mentioned in the first one you replied to, because I really can't agree with punishing people just for being there. But also...

We did however, as Fikou mentioned, not lay blanket bans on the entire community. Everything is proportional to information we found in the investigation.

Not rlly ? There were 17 people or smth not 17 bans

7 permabans, one of which as this appeal is showing, other than TWO INCIDENTS WHEN THEY WERE REALLY NEW LITERALLY TEN FUCKING MONTHS AGO, never partook in the Criminal Actions, and references made to a handful more that weren't perma'd.

This conversation and this peanut has shown one of those 7 was someone whose only fucking crime was being in the server and wanting to have friends. How many more of them are the same?

Fuck this headmin term, and fuck your term.

Sharing info about an ongoing round is still sharing info about an ongoing round nothing else to say rlly, exceptions aren't usually made.

We will probably re evaluate some of them on appeal but largely it is what it is.

Not everything can have admin leniency with sharing in round info being one of these things.

[NecromancerAnne]

No, no. Let's say you and I are chatting in TG-Gen while also in game, we're talking about Starsector or something, and Vekter comes in and posts a screenshot from the current round while we're talking. Should we be banned, too?

Because that's basically what this part is saying

There are degrees of culpability and deniability at play. Consider that this situation involved a private server, with only so many people in the server itself. Those who are present in the server are presumably a lot more closer to one another, and more culpable as a result if scrutiny is leveled at them. How directly involved they are in discussions and how conscientious of the behavior of their peers is easier to track, but also difficult to disprove due to proximity and the exclusivity of the environment. If they're in the discord, and they're not paying attention or reading the logs, but also not engaging with discussion, then the only thing that might be leveled at them is suspicion and a lack of trust. Guilt by association is more reasonable the smaller the group might be if patterned behavior an be more easily established and the more involved you are in ongoing discussions while this rule breaking behavior is occurring and not being challenged.

If someone just goes blurting out in-round events in a more public server, where there are potentially hundreds of people that might be able to perceive the information, then those involved in surrounding discussions are not necessarily culpable due to simply being much more admissible via lack of association and involvement directly with the person leaking in-round information. There is no exclusivity to the platform, there is no connection to those people beyond being witness to the situation, the circumstances can be argued as having being thrust upon those in the surrounding discussion unwillingly because the norms suggest that this is not the proper way to behave and there is no history or associating to suggest this person is involved in the behavior or condones it.

As a real world hypothetical, if I am in the room where someone is shot, and there is only me, the killer, the corpse and my best friend Kieth high off his kite in a beanbag in the corner, everyone in that room is being scrutinized thoroughly for culpability. You're invited into that space. There is some kind of direct links of association that can be tied together.

If I'm standing next to someone at the bus stop and I'm dragging Kieth's stoner ass back from a concert, and there is like 3 other people in the area, and someone ran up and shot the guy next to me in broad daylight, I'm a witness but guilt isn't immediately associated with me because of the way in which social context changes the dynamic of these relationships, even if I'm secretly involved in both scenarios due to having paid the killer to assassinate that piece of shit richard doyle who keeps following us to the club to bum weed off me.

What was my point?

Anyway, this is basic logic here.

[dirk_mcblade]

Some people defo made an effort to go yo don't do this shit guys but it only happened a couple of times and they just got ignored rlly because of how much it happened. (Their punishment wad less severe)

I'm just gonna point at what Xemo said, that I mentioned in the first one you replied to, because I really can't agree with punishing people just for being there. But also...

We did however, as Fikou mentioned, not lay blanket bans on the entire community. Everything is proportional to information we found in the investigation.

Not rlly ? There were 17 people or smth not 17 bans

7 permabans, one of which as this appeal is showing, other than TWO INCIDENTS WHEN THEY WERE REALLY NEW LITERALLY TEN FUCKING MONTHS AGO, never partook in the Criminal Actions, and references made to a handful more that weren't perma'd.

This conversation and this peanut has shown one of those 7 was someone whose only fucking crime was being in the server and wanting to have friends. How many more of them are the same?

Fuck this headmin term, and fuck your term.

There are no friends on the internet, let that be a cheap lesson to you by learning from other people's mistakes.
Like how many times do you think people get goaded into doing illegal shit or being the fall guy under the pretense of friendship? This shit is minor. They stayed in close proximity to people flouting the rules, and now they get to go gather a vouch from a different server before coming back. Boohoo. It's a small price to pay to learn to be a better judge of character in general.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Some people defo made an effort to go yo don't do this shit guys but it only happened a couple of times and they just got ignored rlly because of how much it happened. (Their punishment wad less severe)

I'm just gonna point at what Xemo said, that I mentioned in the first one you replied to, because I really can't agree with punishing people just for being there. But also...

We did however, as Fikou mentioned, not lay blanket bans on the entire community. Everything is proportional to information we found in the investigation.

Not rlly ? There were 17 people or smth not 17 bans

7 permabans, one of which as this appeal is showing, other than TWO INCIDENTS WHEN THEY WERE REALLY NEW LITERALLY TEN FUCKING MONTHS AGO, never partook in the Criminal Actions, and references made to a handful more that weren't perma'd.

This conversation and this peanut has shown one of those 7 was someone whose only fucking crime was being in the server and wanting to have friends. How many more of them are the same?

Fuck this headmin term, and fuck your term.

Sharing info about an ongoing round is still sharing info about an ongoing round nothing else to say rlly, exceptions aren't usually made.

We will probably re evaluate some of them on appeal but largely it is what it is.

Not everything can have admin leniency with sharing in round info being one of these things.

What fucking info is gained from someone being really excited because they found a cute cat? If you investigated for this long, why would you need to re-evaluate it so quickly? Why not take a little bit of extra time to think it through properly?

Your own wording says that people who were in there AND TELLING THEM TO STOP DOING IT still got punished, just not as hard. So I again point to Xemo saying that they made mistakes but we shouldn't be fucking people over for just wanting to get the happy brain chemicals that comes with having friends.

Sometimes you need to throw the book at people, but other times you can get away with just scaring them. A near miss will get the job done on people who are just making a mistake or poor judgment, rather than actively being malicious about things.

Is it any surprise that 80% of this thread, admins included, are saying this particular one is fucked up? It's clear as day that Skye's only crimes were "I hope this doesn't lead to a murderbone fest" (Something they never repeated, or 'repeats of the same thing' would be a much more compelling argument than the second evidence actually used) and "Guys look at this really cute thing I love it so much aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!" and Chesh is out here lying confidently and saying "Everything is proportional to information found", while you're saying people who said "Hey don't do that" and got ignored were still punished at all ("lesser punishments" still suggests "punished").

You guys can do better. Miskiethpoes was a beloved term because you guys had the sense to make the right calls. That's why I'm so frustrated about this. We know you can do better.

[snip]

Suspicion by association is fine, guilt by association is not. To use more real world hypotheticals. I'm dragged out to a gathering by a small group of friends. Of our group, everyone else has decided to do cocaine. I have refused, but I still want to spend time with these people because having friends makes my brain produce the funny chemicals without having to resort to recreational substances.

The police kick the door down. They've done a thorough investigation, they've combed through every belonging at the party.

I didn't do any cocaine, I was just at the party.

Should I be sentenced? Investigated is fine. But should I be charged, sentenced and punished?

[Pepper]

holy shit you thumbsucking retards SNIP YOUR QUOTES

blah blah blah

guilt by association is wrong and I will not infantalize you further by going further in depth as to why

[NecromancerAnne]

Thinking having friends on the internet is a character flaw is like, actually maybe the most fucked up take in this thread if I had to be honest because there are plenty of people here who can functionally maintain friendships without either breaking server rules OR committing felonies.

Like, yes, have a good/better judge of character, but don't shut yourself off from being friendly with people because someone got burned as a result of having poor judgement. Exercising this good judgement is how you avoid getting into these scenarios and keeping your friends from doing the same hopefully :U

[kieth4]

Look I hate using the forums if you want to argue ping me in discord because forums are poo poo

Kieth4....OUT!!!

[dirk_mcblade]

Suspicion by association is fine, guilt by association is not. To use more real world hypotheticals. I'm dragged out to a gathering by a small group of friends. Of our group, everyone else has decided to do cocaine. I have refused, but I still want to spend time with these people because having friends makes my brain produce the funny chemicals without having to resort to recreational substances.

The police kick the door down. They've done a thorough investigation, they've combed through every belonging at the party.

I didn't do any cocaine, I was just at the party.

Should I be sentenced? Investigated is fine. But should I be charged, sentenced and punished?

In that example you should be sentenced and your friends go free. Who turns down free cocaine? Probably a reptilian in a skinsuit.

[dirk_mcblade]

Thinking having friends on the internet is a character flaw is like, actually maybe the most fucked up take in this thread if I had to be honest because there are plenty of people here who can functionally maintain friendships without either breaking server rules OR committing felonies.

Like, yes, have a good/better judge of character, but don't shut yourself off from being friendly with people because someone got burned as a result of having poor judgement. Exercising this good judgement is how you avoid getting into these scenarios and keeping your friends from doing the same hopefully :U

Not having friends from the internet may be fucked up, but you certainly wouldn't be at risk of getting banned for joining a metacomming discord. I'm just here to play games n shit I'm not looking to get wrapped up in what other people are cooking.

[NecromancerAnne]

Not having friends from the internet may be fucked up, but you certainly wouldn't be at risk of getting banned for joining a metacomming discord. I'm just here to play games n shit I'm not looking to get wrapped up in what other people are cooking.

I mean, if it's whatever is best for you, I suppose. I just think it isn't a good universal solution...

[conrad]

We have deadminned Shockshard for spawning things for themselves, and ostracized them from the community because, although being a nice person to chat and hang around with, we were lied to and they were cheating. I don't recall off the top of my head names and ckeys, but I do remember asking "Wait who's this admin?" And gotten the same "oh this was an admin before and they got 86'd for cheating".

xpokee was running for headmin, which at the very least made everyone aware they knew exactly what they were doing and said nothing about it. Can you imagine the shitstorm if they had won?

My point here is that having a comms channel where you break rule 2 away from everyone's eyes constantly is cheating, and being part of a Discord channel is voluntary, no one's forcing you, so yes, if you're willingly on a Discord channel where metacomms are constantly done you can be hammered by association. Thankfully the headmins did it so that whatever happened happened in proportion to what they did, not just a blanket permaban to everyone involved.

"Buh buh buh Conrad is jwust swome hawmuless *looks away* mewtacooms" yeah and we ban people for shuttle bombing before eorg, murderboning on MRP as traitor and circumventing the word filter repeatedly. If you allow a blatant rule break without any positive outcome you might as well remove the rule altogether...not to say when that rule break shares a Venn diagram intersection with cheating.

I did like some of the people that were swept and I'll miss them in game, hopefully they can appeal in the future, but I'd be lying if this doesn't leave a bad taste in my mouth since, you know, you trust these community members to not do this and bam, they just go and do it anyway.

[Bepis]

Nothing personal against anyone affected but I agree that there should be zero tolerance for metacomms. It sucks for them, for now, but they'll probably be back in a few weeks/months and hopefully it'll be a big enough lesson to dissuade any other similar groups (or just increase their security posture).

edit: side question, do you pronounce it de-adminned, or dead-minned or is it like potato/potato, tomato/tomato

[Timberpoes]

ITT person you like breaks a rule with the following precedent:

Metacomms, the use of methods of communication outside of SS13 IC channels, is a very serious rule violation and may be met with permanent bans for all related accounts.

That's really all there is to it. It's like, one of the most sacred rules for SS13 to even function as the game it is intended to be.

I don't know where people are getting on their high horses about this because the reality is they shared key IC info about themselves in that one image with the cat.

It wasnt just the cat. They revealed their immediate IC location with others and in doing so revealed that they're still alive too. In OOC channels.

That's cheating, even though there may have been intent to break the rules in some other, different, lesser way.

But they shared that key information about themselves and that is why metacomms has no grey area in enforcement.

Its straight to perma because even the most baby of metacomms can reveal enough info to pass the threshold of cheating.

That's just one level deep. The second level is "sharing info with people not playing, so shouldn't be banned". Again, the reality is you have no control over who the people you just told then share that info with.

We don't get to "but ackshually" our way around it to create a loophole where metacomms by proxy is acceptable.

Breaking down Rule 2 breaches in this way provides a different insight. Sometimes even the most innocent looking metacomm transmits privileged IC information. Once IC information leaves the shift and is transferred to someone else OOC, you have no control over who else finds it out from there.

The main time we take it easy for metacomms is when it's two people playing together and one is teaching the other. At that point it's less an issue of sharing IC info in OOC ways and more obfuscating your interactions in a way that may grant advantages.

We are exceptionally lenient and flexible there since teaching new players is a vital part of keeping our game healthy.

Catering to those that don't wait until the shift ends to share stories and screenshots is not a vital part of keeping our game healthy.

And as a certain xpokee dipshit admitted on the Manuelcord after being banned, tons of people have been in their DMs sharing in round info. What we've dealt with is all the stuff we can see. There's a "tip of the iceberg" element to this which still trends towards "I wonder what people were sharing that we couldn't see".

Some people must think we're pretty fucking dumb. And maybe we are. But to explain all the nuance that goes into every minor decision is asinine.

Shared IC information in OOC channels, got banned.

That they intended to break the rule in some other way is of lesser importance than the purpose of the rule they tried to break.

[Jackraxxus]

reddit spacing

[Jacquerel]

I do think it would be for the best if we preemptively banned everyone related by blood to the perpetrators too just in case.

[Scriptis]

this sequence of bans fails the vibe check and i give this a thumbs down for transparency, public relations, and admin-player communication

also all metacords should have an angry admin like me to enforce rule 2 (long live the top secret scriptis metacord)

[Timonk]

What even lead to this? Was there an undercover operation going on? Do we have spies in more metacomming servers? Do we have honeypots?

some logs were brought to our attention which we filtered through for what was relevant in our decisions. it was something already on our radar and this just gave us some unfortunate confirmations of suspicions that had been held/investigated previously.

who was the snitch? a player? did he enter a plea deal to foward all logs to the admins in exchange for not getting punished? how long was this person part of the server?

[kinnebian]

What even lead to this? Was there an undercover operation going on? Do we have spies in more metacomming servers? Do we have honeypots?

some logs were brought to our attention which we filtered through for what was relevant in our decisions. it was something already on our radar and this just gave us some unfortunate confirmations of suspicions that had been held/investigated previously.

who was the snitch? a player? did he enter a plea deal to foward all logs to the admins in exchange for not getting punished? how long was this person part of the server?

timonk.... the snitch was YOU.
they just gave you benzos as part of the deal to wipe your memory....

[Timonk]

What even lead to this? Was there an undercover operation going on? Do we have spies in more metacomming servers? Do we have honeypots?

some logs were brought to our attention which we filtered through for what was relevant in our decisions. it was something already on our radar and this just gave us some unfortunate confirmations of suspicions that had been held/investigated previously.

who was the snitch? a player? did he enter a plea deal to foward all logs to the admins in exchange for not getting punished? how long was this person part of the server?

timonk.... the snitch was YOU.
they just gave you benzos as part of the deal to wipe your memory....

there aint no way bros.... its so joever for my career as a cleaner....

[Timberpoes]

this sequence of bans fails the vibe check and i give this a thumbs down for transparency, public relations, and admin-player communication

also all metacords should have an angry admin like me to enforce rule 2 (long live the top secret scriptis metacord)

It's going to fail transparency for a lot of reasons I've covered in bus.

The headmin team has no right to have been given access to these leaked logs, but we got them anyway.

Your dumb ass has even less right than the headmins do to see them. And seeing as we have no rights, that leaves you in a pretty pickle.

We're not going to share stuff just because the admin team occasionally forget they're not that important on the totem pole; players plus their privacy ranks higher than admins plus their curiosity.

We have shared the metacomms evidence with banned players that have requested it, since its messages they said while they were there at the time. They will hold the headmin team to account via appeals if they disagree they metacommed or want to put some different perspective forward. The admin team will have to take a transparency backseat on this one.

[dirk_mcblade]

The snitch should've received antag tokens to be honest and whistleblowers receiving tokens should be policy tbqhwy.

And as a certain xpokee dipshit admitted on the Manuelcord after being banned, tons of people have been in their DMs sharing in round info. What we've dealt with is all the stuff we can see. There's a "tip of the iceberg" element to this which still trends towards "I wonder what people were sharing that we couldn't see".

Yeah, no shit. Why do you think people are clutching their pearls itt?
They're thinking oh shit maybe I'm next. All I did was share cat pictures!

[carshalash]

The snitch should've received antag tokens to be honest and whistleblowers receiving tokens should be policy tbqhwy.

And as a certain xpokee dipshit admitted on the Manuelcord after being banned, tons of people have been in their DMs sharing in round info. What we've dealt with is all the stuff we can see. There's a "tip of the iceberg" element to this which still trends towards "I wonder what people were sharing that we couldn't see".

Yeah, no shit. Why do you think people are clutching their pearls itt?
They're thinking oh shit maybe I'm next. All I did was share cat pictures!

Don't wanna ruin your fanfiction but, Pepper isn't in either the Manuelcord, or the formerly nuked discord.

[dirk_mcblade]

The snitch should've received antag tokens to be honest and whistleblowers receiving tokens should be policy tbqhwy.

And as a certain xpokee dipshit admitted on the Manuelcord after being banned, tons of people have been in their DMs sharing in round info. What we've dealt with is all the stuff we can see. There's a "tip of the iceberg" element to this which still trends towards "I wonder what people were sharing that we couldn't see".

Yeah, no shit. Why do you think people are clutching their pearls itt?
They're thinking oh shit maybe I'm next. All I did was share cat pictures!

Don't wanna ruin your fanfiction but, Pepper isn't in either the Manuelcord, or the formerly nuked discord.

Great. Prove they're not in some other discord metacomming.

[carshalash]

The snitch should've received antag tokens to be honest and whistleblowers receiving tokens should be policy tbqhwy.

And as a certain xpokee dipshit admitted on the Manuelcord after being banned, tons of people have been in their DMs sharing in round info. What we've dealt with is all the stuff we can see. There's a "tip of the iceberg" element to this which still trends towards "I wonder what people were sharing that we couldn't see".

Yeah, no shit. Why do you think people are clutching their pearls itt?
They're thinking oh shit maybe I'm next. All I did was share cat pictures!

Don't wanna ruin your fanfiction but, Pepper isn't in either the Manuelcord, or the formerly nuked discord.

Great. Prove they're not in some other discord metacomming.

Prove you aren't...

[dirk_mcblade]

The snitch should've received antag tokens to be honest and whistleblowers receiving tokens should be policy tbqhwy.

And as a certain xpokee dipshit admitted on the Manuelcord after being banned, tons of people have been in their DMs sharing in round info. What we've dealt with is all the stuff we can see. There's a "tip of the iceberg" element to this which still trends towards "I wonder what people were sharing that we couldn't see".

Yeah, no shit. Why do you think people are clutching their pearls itt?
They're thinking oh shit maybe I'm next. All I did was share cat pictures!

Don't wanna ruin your fanfiction but, Pepper isn't in either the Manuelcord, or the formerly nuked discord.

Great. Prove they're not in some other discord metacomming.

Prove you aren't...

You know, as someone who's part of the reason why we can't have nice things I don't see where you get off trying to clap back like that when I was pointing out your statement was essentially meaningless and my point was I think a lot of people are acting suspiciously on your behalf.

[conrad]

What even lead to this? Was there an undercover operation going on? Do we have spies in more metacomming servers? Do we have honeypots?

some logs were brought to our attention which we filtered through for what was relevant in our decisions. it was something already on our radar and this just gave us some unfortunate confirmations of suspicions that had been held/investigated previously.

who was the snitch? a player? did he enter a plea deal to foward all logs to the admins in exchange for not getting punished? how long was this person part of the server?

timonk.... the snitch was YOU.
they just gave you benzos as part of the deal to wipe your memory....

there aint no way bros.... its so joever for my career as a cleaner....

Maybe friends are the people we snitch along the way.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

The snitch should've received antag tokens to be honest and whistleblowers receiving tokens should be policy tbqhwy.

And as a certain xpokee dipshit admitted on the Manuelcord after being banned, tons of people have been in their DMs sharing in round info. What we've dealt with is all the stuff we can see. There's a "tip of the iceberg" element to this which still trends towards "I wonder what people were sharing that we couldn't see".

Yeah, no shit. Why do you think people are clutching their pearls itt?
They're thinking oh shit maybe I'm next. All I did was share cat pictures!

It's called having some fucking empathy.

Try imagining yourself being brand new to a game and excitedly showing something to your friends. It's something that brings you JOY, and you want to share it with people, so that they can feel the same joy you feel. It's something so minor and so late (I don't care what Timber says, that information is fucking useless less than two minutes before round end) and from the fact that those were THE ONLY TWO PIECES OF EVIDENCE SHOWN, it's fucking clear they're the only two pieces of evidence there were for this particular person, it's clear that as they played more, they knew they shouldn't do that.

And then 10 months later, almost an entire fucking year, you're now permanently banned from that game, because you made the fucking mistake of trying to share something that made you smile.

I won't say they did anything wrong, or they should have done it. But can you imagine how absolutely gutwrenching and soul-crushing it's got to be?

That's why I'm so pissed off about this. Because it makes ME hurt to imagine how that has to feel and I don't fucking like it.

[conrad]

this sequence of bans fails the vibe check and i give this a thumbs down for transparency, public relations, and admin-player communication

also all metacords should have an angry admin like me to enforce rule 2 (long live the top secret scriptis metacord)

It's going to fail transparency for a lot of reasons I've covered in bus.

The headmin team has no right to have been given access to these leaked logs, but we got them anyway.

Your dumb ass has even less right than the headmins do to see them. And seeing as we have no rights, that leaves you in a pretty pickle.

We're not going to share stuff just because the admin team occasionally forget they're not that important on the totem pole; players plus their privacy ranks higher than admins plus their curiosity.

We have shared the metacomms evidence with banned players that have requested it, since its messages they said while they were there at the time. They will hold the headmin team to account via appeals if they disagree they metacommed or want to put some different perspective forward. The admin team will have to take a transparency backseat on this one.

Timber is like Czernobog to tbm's Belobog cos tbm explained the exact same thing without making me like him slightly less.

inb4 "Another satisfied Timberpoes voter" or some such. I'll pin this under headmin burnout so I still like Timber.

[carshalash]

Skye was an incredibly passive player in general, that was their first month of playing the game as shown by their byond account registration.

https://secure.byond.com/members/13thSky

[Timberpoes]

!	Message from: Timberpoes
	Cut this shit out before I have a brain aneurysm take a long walk off a short pier have to start actually moderating the forums, which doubles existing drama in exchange for cutting future drama down by 90%.

[Turbonerd]

The people defending this should should seriously get investigated. It was straight up metacomms. It's like defending a murder case because it was only third degree and you met them once. Get your shit together guys! I don't care if they were a healslut to you in medbay that one time!

[EmpressMaia]

All of you should be quiet for several days

[Fikou]

Despite the constant negative press covfefe

[Timberpoes]

!

Message from: Timberpoes

Stop pissing me off. The proletariat will have their venue to peanut here, but it most be done in good faith and without getting sidetracked in utterly pointless avenues. Reading the latter part of this thread was a long walk down a cold and windy beach to visit a cafe that was ultimately closed. Unlike other admins I will start banning people before I go the route of locking this thread. Moderate yourselves because I don't want to have to moderate you for you. I have zero chill.

[AsbestosSniffer]

Just lock it anyways, we're going round in circles. Stubbornness reigns supreme.

[Timberpoes]

The circles are different groups disagreeing with eachother. Some admins are disagreeing with others. Some players are disagreeing with others. And some of each group are disagreeing with others from another group. People expressing their opinions in peanuts is a core part of people being able to hold each other to account for our choices - both as players and as admins.

I am not going to let a bit of shittery axe the opportunity for people to discuss this ban, these bans and this general topic in an appropriate manner.

But it does have to be appropriate and going on wild fucking tangents of thought ain't it.

[AsbestosSniffer]

It feels like an argument between people who follow rules, but are open to interpretation and context versus people who are slaves to them, we all agree that metacomming is bad, but many of us feel like the ban concerning this player and considering the known context is too harsh. And you know what the response is from the latter group? "Well you're clearly metagaming! Now let me compare the banned player in question to a world-famous serial killer!" And I find it fascinating that you start deleting comments only when people rightfully call them out on their shit. I'll be honest, I'm losing my patience, which is an incredible rarity, yeah sure, ban me for running off a tangent, I don't care anymore, this being a permaban is already frankly ridiculous, especially when I and others have experienced shitters ruining round after round, only to be met by "well we talked to this player and they pinky pwomised not to do it again." Only for them to do it again and again. (See, Nathan Lowestone, Jerome Johnson, etc.) Xpokee's ban (and presumably that of one or two more) was justified, they metacommed round after round, but from what I've seen Skye posted two fairly innocuous screenshots and the people who would usually be saying "They pinky pwomised not to do it again, pwease be patient" are now smashing that ban hammer with a superlative force. Once again, I do not care if I receive a ban from this, this is already frankly ridiculous, that is all.

[kinnebian]

It feels like an argument between people who follow rules, but are open to interpretation and context versus people who are slaves to them, we all agree that metacomming is bad, but many of us feel like the ban concerning this player and considering the known context is too harsh. And you know what the response is from the latter group? "Well you're clearly metagaming! Now let me compare the banned player in question to a world-famous serial killer!"

I feel like thats far too easy of an strawman to attack. The only person I see making this response is Dirk.

[AsbestosSniffer]

It feels like an argument between people who follow rules, but are open to interpretation and context versus people who are slaves to them, we all agree that metacomming is bad, but many of us feel like the ban concerning this player and considering the known context is too harsh. And you know what the response is from the latter group? "Well you're clearly metagaming! Now let me compare the banned player in question to a world-famous serial killer!"

I feel like thats far too easy of an strawman to attack. The only person I see making this response is Dirk.

You had a couple others as well but their posts were also thankfully deleted.

[Cheshify]

Can someone start talking about starsector this thread has long been drained of anything productive related to a difficult situation.

[Timberpoes]

You're not going to get banned for expressing dissatisfaction with the bans or giving your views on them as long as they're not done in such an utterly cancerous manner that makes me want to commit Self Youtube Demonetisation Syndrome. Criticising decisions and the reasons those decisions were made is the right of all our players; going on wild tangents in the process is not.

I strongly dislike locking peanut threads that derail precisely because it locks an avenue for players to challenge us (the headmin team) and puts a lot of power in the hands of shitters to lock down reasonable discourse.

[dendydoom]

laying the blame at chesh's feet like this was some sort of kneejerk post-election assassination of a fellow candidate is delusional. this investigation was opened a very long time ago and chesh was one of the loudest voices about how we shouldn't act on anything that isn't concrete when all we had was suspicious metacomms-like behaviour to go off of. they closed the investigation themselves multiple times over it and continued to hammer home the point that it would be wrong to do anything without irrefutable proof that it was happening. then we received irrefutable proof that it was happening. nobody was happy to see it. we wanted the issue to stay closed and to believe that nothing was going on.

the handover hasn't happened yet. this was not one person's decision. the entire 6 person strong headmin pantheon has been deliberating over this for a long time. a lot of us are exhausted from it mentally and emotionally. it is a mournful and regrettable conclusion to a difficult situation, not a victory over banning bad players.

it is not ethical to hand out reams of logs from private and personal conversations to the peanut gallery and doing so would cause infinitely more harm than good. the people involved are allowed to talk to the headmins privately because of the nature of the information. the difficulty in handling a public facing appeal respectfully when there is sensitive information involved is that you can't show the full context because you would have to unpack months and months of personal information in order to paint the full picture. please think about this reasonably for a moment.

no admin is happy over this situation. i'm very fond of all the players involved. they were popular on the server and most people liked them. but you aren't allowed to cheat at the game, and we shouldn't make exceptions to this very basic and fundamental rule for our friends. if you want to play on a server like that, then please feel free, but i doubt it's going to happen here. the vast majority of our rules are very sensitive to context and flexible reasoning. this one is not.

where their good record will come into play is after they've taken a break and ask to come back. if you want my personal take, i doubt many (if any) of these bans will truly turn out to be permanent in the long run. the best outcome to me would be for them to take a break, process this situation, then return in a better place so that they can reconnect to why they enjoyed playing the game in the first place and participate with us once more.

i'm not sure if i will respond any more to this thread (i already said that i wouldn't yet here i am) because every admin involved has already discussed it to death and, personally, it is necessary for me to disengage from it because it has been a very unpleasant experience. i understand that many people are shocked, frustrated and upset by it, and i feel that it's only fair to allow those people to voice those feelings, but i would also ask that you consider that what is new to you is something we've been going over again and again for a long time now and a lot of people are very stressed out over it and want some breathing room from it.

[conrad]

Can someone start talking about starsector this thread has long been drained of anything productive related to a difficult situation.

BRO HAVE YOU SEEN FLESH AND BLOOD?

It's my favourite thing right now. It's a TCG with a much lower monetary barrier of entry than Magic the Gathering and has a much more active, back and forth fueled combat gameplay.

I played it once all day and although it felt wonky cos I had never played it I managed to win a game against a friend of mine who is a TCG streamer and YouTuber. Felt good.

F&B is my favourite thing rn fr

[kayozz]

I am entirely neutral on this ban and the rulings and the fall out.
I hope this at least brings some stability to the chaos.

[TheRex9001]

Can someone start talking about starsector this thread has long been drained of anything productive related to a difficult situation.

BRO HAVE YOU SEEN FLESH AND BLOOD?

It's my favourite thing right now. It's a TCG with a much lower monetary barrier of entry than Magic the Gathering and has a much more active, back and forth fueled combat gameplay.

I played it once all day and although it felt wonky cos I had never played it I managed to win a game against a friend of mine who is a TCG streamer and YouTuber. Felt good.

F&B is my favourite thing rn fr

Have you seen Keyforge? Its buy one deck for 6 bucks (maybe some tokens but you can use paper imma be real) and then you play, each deck contains random Cards in 3 factions and you cant mix cards from different decks, a lotta fun

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

I think the bans are completely valid, I just think a bit of clemency is in order, at least in the actual one ban being appealed. A solid 1 month ban would be my prescription. Mitigating factors are they appeared to be a lot newer when the metacomming incidents occurred, and if I've read this thread correctly, the evidence posted is from only like a month after they started playing, and in this unofficial discord. So, likely, they thought it was fine at the time because they hopped in to a discord with a lot of other much more well established players who should have known better and copied their behavior when they were newer, and then they appear to have stopped after that, since it seems they came to know and understand the rules better.

The purpose of punishments like notes and bans are to teach people to act better, we believe in restoration here, not retribution. 1 month for posting the cute cat you found when you were a much newer player already sounds plenty harsh enough to me, and will more than keep them away from metacomms in the future.

If I got something wrong here, let me know, but, that's my opinion.

[MooCow12]

This thread is like 7/10 if sinful was here to clash with people it might have gotten a higher score.

Also if you get permabanned for something you did a year prior does that mean you are able to appeal it without waiting since its been a year since you did bad thing

[TheBibleMelts]

hey gang, i don't know if it's been posted in this thread yet but we have decided to reopen skyes appeal thread and discuss their situation in particular. if there's one ban we made that i think is deserving of another pass with some new context both provided here and internally, it's theirs.

remember that cool heads prevail, and trying to relate and level with the people you disagree with is more likely to get them to take your umbrage seriously, as opposed to making yourself look like you're just having a Gamer Moment and writing it off as kneejerk gamer rage. people have made impassioned posts here with legitimate concerns, but i think some of them would have benefited greatly from letting themselves cool off first.

[Fren256]

Can someone start talking about starsector this thread has long been drained of anything productive related to a difficult situation.

BRO HAVE YOU SEEN FLESH AND BLOOD?

It's my favourite thing right now. It's a TCG with a much lower monetary barrier of entry than Magic the Gathering and has a much more active, back and forth fueled combat gameplay.

I played it once all day and although it felt wonky cos I had never played it I managed to win a game against a friend of mine who is a TCG streamer and YouTuber. Felt good.

F&B is my favourite thing rn fr

Have you seen Keyforge? Its buy one deck for 6 bucks (maybe some tokens but you can use paper imma be real) and then you play, each deck contains random Cards in 3 factions and you cant mix cards from different decks, a lotta fun

Speaking of deck builders, there's this game called Friends vs Friends that combines first person shooting and deck-building. You use different types of cards in 1v1 or 2v2 matches that give you buffs, debuffs the opponent(s) or even random attributes that can turn the tide of the round, like completely changing the map. It has its balance issues and the playerbase is not that big, but it is incredibly fun, especially with friends.

Oh, and all of the playable characters are anthropomorphic animals.