Immovable note supplexed by headmin review nut

conrad · Post by **conrad** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 6:21 am #705625

Bottom post of the previous page:

viewtopic.php?f=7&p=705624#p705624

20 minutes. Can we get any lower?

Post by **TheRex9001** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:38 pm #705714

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:34 pm
TheRex9001 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:30 pm I'm wondering why sinful didnt put the sexual harassment stuff in his original 5 points if it was the reason for killing the guy and cutting his limbs off.

(1) If a total stranger tries to kill you or severely harm you, with zero prior interactions, they are acting like an antagonist.
(2) Shooting a syringe of chloral at someone wordlessly qualifies as trying to kill or severely harm them, and therefore they are acting like an antagonist.
(3) "Finding no antagonist gear" is completely irrelevant to whether or not their action was acting like an antag. Heretics often have no gear, traitors don't need to buy gear, lings have no gear -- this shouldn't factor into the decision whatsoever.
(4) Vekter claims I should have realized they shot me in order to incapacitate me, because I was punching the clown. I disagree. Chloral hydrate is a lethal chem -- it isn't a baton or a morphine syringe. It has lethal intent. So incapacitation as a motive was right out for me. More importantly I have no reason to expect a random person to poison me over this -- they have no context, they're uninvolved, they didn't even see the clown using their shockhands from earlier. They should have no part in the conflict. They didn't utter a word. Their only possible role here to me was "opportunist," trying to make off with an unnoticed kill during the chaos, which happens often on LRP.
(5) Even if you assume for whatever reason they weren't acting like an antag: Damaging someone further after you kill them is covered by escalation rules.

He mentions it in the more stuff but thats to highlight that the chemist was banned for metagrudging him and "some bad stuff" by which I assume the sexual harassment point? If the sexual harassment stuff was his primary motive it would make sense to be included in his 5 original reasons
Because he's a guy, and guys don't like to mention or bring up sexual harassment because they think it makes them seem weak, or they don't think they should bother because it won't be taken seriously, since people tend to handwave sexual harassment against males.

Imagine if it was a female player being called a submissive waif in a contextually malicious manner instead. Would you and everyone else be acting the same way in this peanut?

What the fuck am I acting like? I said I found it weird they didnt post it in their original 5 points, I couldnt give less of a shit if it was a woman or a man who got harassed, no one should be getting harassed and if you bring it up to the admins its significantly easier for it to be dealt with.

Pepper · Post by **Pepper** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:42 pm #705715

TheRex9001 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:38 pm no one should be getting harassed and if you bring it up to the admins its significantly easier for it to be dealt with.

While this is true, just because it's easier for admins to deal with doesn't mean there isn't a level of mental burden put upon the person reporting it. You can't expect the ideal outcome every single time. Admins don't need to be mind readers but even Vekter was capable of realizing that this was over the line. He just seems to think sinful is somehow impervious to the damage that kind of harassment can cause.

Post by **Archie700** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:43 pm #705716

I think it is BECAUSE Axle shows himself willing to endure being a catboy in OOC that people are more comfortable with needling him as one because they think it is a playful jab at him.
Obviously it was not for the next two incidents, but the first incident, the one that caused the guy to metagrudge him fully?
Furthermore, if Axle was uncomfortable with the previous incidents, he should have ahelped directly and, if the ticket was taken, we would have told the person off.
There is no way you can people can gauge others being OOCly uncomfortable off IC actions. This is because, ultimately, you are not your character, no matter how much it matches you.
Someone can OOCly find something funny but act ICly offended, while others can ICly play it cool while OOCly report it to admins.
The only way we can truly know if someone is truly, actually offended is if they tell us OOCly.

Post by **Vekter** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:44 pm #705717

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:25 pm Please seriously consider if you aren't subconsciously downplaying this, Vekter.

I'm not.

There's some context missing here by explicit request of Sinful but I did take the matter of what happened in a later round very seriously when it was brought to my attention. The twink comment was never mentioned to me as a reason for Sinful's actions and the matter regarding Pepperoni printing those stupid posters and later impersonating him as a comms agent was handled in both cases to Sinful's satisfaction.

I appreciate both you and Pepper's concerns, though. I always take matters of sexual harassment seriously regardless of gender. Had it been listed as a reason for his actions, I would have addressed it in the appeal.

For the record, it wouldn't have changed my decision much, though without Pepperoni's later actions it would have earned him a short ban in a vacuum. I don't think it would have changed much about the note on Sinful's end as it's still a valid reason to escalate but something I would handle administratively, not in character.

Post by **TheRex9001** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:48 pm #705718

Pepper wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:42 pm
TheRex9001 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:38 pm no one should be getting harassed and if you bring it up to the admins its significantly easier for it to be dealt with.
While this is true, just because it's easier for admins to deal with doesn't mean there isn't a level of mental burden put upon the person reporting it. You can't expect the ideal outcome every single time. Admins don't need to be mind readers but even Vekter was capable of realizing that this was over the line. He just seems to think sinful is somehow impervious to the damage that kind of harassment can cause.

This is of course true, and it might seem hard but seriously reporting this type of shit is really the best way to have it handled. You of course cant expect the ideal outcome every time but these types of things are usually note/ban -> perma territory (for the person doing the harassment).

Post by **Vekter** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:58 pm #705721

Pepper wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:42 pmAdmins don't need to be mind readers but even Vekter was capable of realizing that this was over the line. He just seems to think sinful is somehow impervious to the damage that kind of harassment can cause.

I spent an hour yesterday talking to both Sinful and the head admins about the best way to address specifically JUST the harassment issue here, so you can miss me with that "omg he doesn't care

" shit.

The fact that I didn't slam dunk the guy who did it and then turn around and gently pat Sinful on the head and say "it's okay, your actions were justified because he said mean things about you" doesn't mean I don't care about the impact his words had.

TheLoLSwat · Post by **TheLoLSwat** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:03 pm #705722

getting your limbs removed (in medbay) for shooting someone with a syringe wordlessly (in medbay) is very standard fuck around and find out ngl

Imitates-The-Lizards · Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:04 pm

Vekter wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:58 pm
Pepper wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:42 pmAdmins don't need to be mind readers but even Vekter was capable of realizing that this was over the line. He just seems to think sinful is somehow impervious to the damage that kind of harassment can cause.
I spent an hour yesterday talking to both Sinful and the head admins about the best way to address specifically JUST the harassment issue here, so you can miss me with that "omg he doesn't care " shit.

The fact that I didn't slam dunk the guy who did it and then turn around and gently pat Sinful on the head and say "it's okay, your actions were justified because he said mean things about you" doesn't mean I don't care about the impact his words had.

Okay, thanks for addressing it Vekter. Glad to see it was handled.

Post by **Archie700** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:07 pm #705724

I think we need to state that ultimately, for this case, the next two incidents do not matter for this judgement, which was confined to only the first round.

If we're going to use evidence from the next two rounds to say "sinful doesn't deserve this note", then we would going far outside what we usually do for overescalation judgements

Post by **Vekter** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:12 pm #705725

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:04 pm Okay, thanks for addressing it Vekter. Glad to see it was handled.

Yeah, I'm sorry for being so aggressive about it, but I don't like when people insist I'm not taking a serious matter seriously because they don't see everything we do behind the scenes.

TheLoLSwat wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:03 pm getting your limbs removed (in medbay) for shooting someone with a syringe wordlessly (in medbay) is very standard fuck around and find out ngl

Sinful wasn't medical staff, he had no business being in medbay and certainly not dragging a fight from outside of medbay to inside it. If anything, getting injected with potassium and water for killing someone in medbay is fuck around and find out.

Kendrickorium · Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:20 pm

Vekter wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 1:49 pm
Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 1:48 pm >come get your axle brady catboy prints in the library

ahhhhh this explains it, i myself have been victim to axles over escalation when it comes to giving out axle brady catboy prints

ironically it was vekter that answered that ahelp
Yeah, and I deleted that stupid painting because this is probably the fourth time I've been made aware of someone using it to antagonize Sinful.

Again - not relevant to the issue at hand. Pepperoni got blasted for metagrudging the next round, but it has nothing to do with what we're discussing here.

E: Also this thread title sucks because I gave him an opportunity to modify the note to be more accurate, he's the one that immediately pushed it to headmins.

i just really like the painting i think its funny

Agux909 · Post by **Agux909** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:33 pm #705732

Gotta add here that the clown was a bit of an unfunny shitter, being a general ass to everyone, and kept shocking everyone in medbay. Even tho we were trying to deescalate the situation for all parties involved (at least I was), I have no clue why anyone would jump all the way to shoot a chloral syringe to Axle.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:42 pm #705735

Vekter wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 1:31 pm We've already established that chloral hydrate cannot kill you at the amount that fits in a syringe. This is also removing any context about you being in the middle of beating the piss out of the clown. Your opinion on the matter is completely irrelevant to the facts. You made a mistake because you didn't have all of the facts and were punished for it.

Information incompleteness is a huge part of the game.

Post by **Vekter** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:45 pm #705736

Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:20 pm i just really like the painting i think its funny

Yeah, well, Sinful doesn't, and it's causing problems, so I got rid of it. Sorry.

Agux909 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:33 pm Gotta add here that the clown was a bit of an unfunny shitter, being a general ass to everyone, and kept shocking everyone in medbay. Even tho we were trying to deescalate the situation for all parties involved (at least I was), I have no clue why anyone would jump all the way to shoot a chloral syringe to Axle.

It's not really relevant, honestly. The only information readily available to the chemist at the time was that Sinful had brought a fight with the clown into medbay, was making a huge mess, and was beating the clown into crit. We can't expect players to act on information they don't have, nor can we expect them to go about collecting every relevant piece of information when something time sensitive is happening. He made a decision (stop Sinful from killing the clown) and Sinful got to retaliate (again, critting the chemist was fine, it's everything after that I have issue with).

CPTANT wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:42 pm Information incompleteness is a huge part of the game.

Right, but Sinful had enough information to know what was in that syringe when he made the choice to dismember the chemist. He was incorrect in believing the chemist had tried to kill him and broke the rules in how he retaliated. Nothing the chemist did could be considered a rule break here.

Kendrickorium · Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:45 pm

Agux909 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:33 pm Gotta add here that the clown was a bit of an unfunny shitter, being a general ass to everyone, and kept shocking everyone in medbay. Even tho we were trying to deescalate the situation for all parties involved (at least I was), I have no clue why anyone would jump all the way to shoot a chloral syringe to Axle.

i just realized you are also chafe 'ugly dude'

thats so fucking funny now that i know that

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:52 pm #705739

Vekter wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:45 pm

Right, but Sinful had enough information to know what was in that syringe when he made the choice to dismember the chemist. He was incorrect in believing the chemist had tried to kill him and broke the rules in how he retaliated. Nothing the chemist did could be considered a rule break here.

The question isn't whether he was right, but whether he was reasonable to come to that conclusion. If it takes the creator of the chem multiple paragraphs to explain the thresholds between incapacitating and killing for the chem then I do think that yes he was reasonable in assuming someone shot a lethal chemical at him.

Agux909 · Post by **Agux909** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:54 pm #705741

Vekter wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:45 pm
Agux909 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:33 pm Gotta add here that the clown was a bit of an unfunny shitter, being a general ass to everyone, and kept shocking everyone in medbay. Even tho we were trying to deescalate the situation for all parties involved (at least I was), I have no clue why anyone would jump all the way to shoot a chloral syringe to Axle.
It's not really relevant, honestly. The only information readily available to the chemist at the time was that Sinful had brought a fight with the clown into medbay, was making a huge mess, and was beating the clown into crit. We can't expect players to act on information they don't have, nor can we expect them to go about collecting every relevant piece of information when something time sensitive is happening. He made a decision (stop Sinful from killing the clown) and Sinful got to retaliate (again, critting the chemist was fine, it's everything after that I have issue with).

Don't jump to defense so quickly Vekter I'm just adding some more context to the whole picture, never said what Sinful did was completely justified.

Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:45 pm i just realized you are also chafe 'ugly dude'

thats so fucking funny now that i know that

I had the impression you knew. But this is good, means all our previous interactions were always pristinely IC.

Post by **Vekter** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:56 pm #705742

Agux909 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:54 pm Don't jump to defense so quickly Vekter I'm just adding some more context to the whole picture, never said what Sinful did was completely justified.

All good, I'm not being defensive, just clearing up any misconceptions.

Post by **dendydoom** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 4:07 pm #705747

i didn't know sinful was getting harassed like this in such a creepy way and to be completely honest i've lost all sympathy for the dude that got nuggeted. on manuel we sometimes turn a blind eye to people who do that getting their comeuppance because it's understandable to be pissed off about it and want that person to fuck off out of the game. idk. i've said it before like i know me and sinful would get into slap fights on the forums but i have nothing against the guy and the idea that he's getting sexually harassed by some weirdo pisses me off just as much as if it happened to anyone else. no one deserves to have to put up with that shit while they play here. it's gross and makes me uncomfortable just to hear about it, and i'm not even the target of it.

i get the point that there is more to the situation but to be totally honest if it were me in that situation i would probably kill a creepy weirdo who kept making unwanted sexual remarks about me too.

Post by **dendydoom** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 4:14 pm #705749

Vekter wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:44 pm
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:25 pm Please seriously consider if you aren't subconsciously downplaying this, Vekter.
I'm not.

There's some context missing here by explicit request of Sinful but I did take the matter of what happened in a later round very seriously when it was brought to my attention. The twink comment was never mentioned to me as a reason for Sinful's actions and the matter regarding Pepperoni printing those stupid posters and later impersonating him as a comms agent was handled in both cases to Sinful's satisfaction.

I appreciate both you and Pepper's concerns, though. I always take matters of sexual harassment seriously regardless of gender. Had it been listed as a reason for his actions, I would have addressed it in the appeal.

For the record, it wouldn't have changed my decision much, though without Pepperoni's later actions it would have earned him a short ban in a vacuum. I don't think it would have changed much about the note on Sinful's end as it's still a valid reason to escalate but something I would handle administratively, not in character.

thanks for taking it seriously, vekter. this is a topic that's kind of sore for me so i'm fully aware that i can get kinda clouded by it but i trust that you took it seriously and dealt with it properly, it means a lot. no player should have to put up with that shit.

Boot · Post by **Boot** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 4:55 pm #705750

So a few memes from what I've read here.

First off, I'm surprised the note makes no mention of him coming back and killing him again after dropping him off at medical.
Secondly, the fact that someone can make constant sexual remakes about you and that 'should be handled administratively' but calling someone a ligger is fair game go on ahead and round remove them we'll ban them if they fight back just goes to show how fucked the status quo is.

iwishforducks · Mon Sep 25, 2023 4:58 pm

boot’s right, we should kill people for saying ligger AND kill people for weird comments

Kendrickorium · Mon Sep 25, 2023 5:02 pm

Agux909 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:54 pm
Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:45 pm i just realized you are also chafe 'ugly dude'

thats so fucking funny now that i know that
I had the impression you knew. But this is good, means all our previous interactions were always pristinely IC.

100% lol

Not-Dorsidarf · Mon Sep 25, 2023 5:19 pm

Chocodemon wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:32 pm It's already been mentioned before but Chloral hydrate is lethal in that it leaves you open and vulnerable. Last time a chemist shot me with it they proceeded to cuff me and shove me into their gas chamber/incinerator within the window opportunity the chloral gave them.

This applies to all hardstuns tbf. I dont think the ruling that stuns from random crew count as lethals for escalation purposes because they make you completely helpless and you have no way of knowing what the other person is gonna do with you once you're helpless is considered current or valid though.

Vekter wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:45 pm Right, but Sinful had enough information to know what was in that syringe when he made the choice to dismember the chemist. He was incorrect in believing the chemist had tried to kill him and broke the rules in how he retaliated. Nothing the chemist did could be considered a rule break here.

I thought that genuinely not knowing an obscure fact (Chloral hydrate the classic antag's murder chem of choice that rapidly sleeps you and is used for lethal injections is actually only lethal in multi-syringe amounts so you cant legally consider it lethal escalation when someone runs up to you in a fight and shoots you with it) generally gave you a certain amount of good faith protections, like when sec execute the wrong person because of a good faith mistake (detective called the wrong persons prints or whatever) or a fresh assistant doing the SM puts the bypass to max they dont get in as much trouble for it?

Kendrickorium · Mon Sep 25, 2023 5:21 pm

i thought you could lethal anyone that injects you with something without consent

Turbonerd · Post by **Turbonerd** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 5:24 pm #705756

Not-Dorsidarf wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 5:19 pm
Chocodemon wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:32 pm It's already been mentioned before but Chloral hydrate is lethal in that it leaves you open and vulnerable. Last time a chemist shot me with it they proceeded to cuff me and shove me into their gas chamber/incinerator within the window opportunity the chloral gave them.
This applies to all hardstuns tbf. I dont think the ruling that stuns from random crew count as lethals for escalation purposes because they make you completely helpless and you have no way of knowing what the other person is gonna do with you once you're helpless is considered current or valid though.

Vekter wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:45 pm Right, but Sinful had enough information to know what was in that syringe when he made the choice to dismember the chemist. He was incorrect in believing the chemist had tried to kill him and broke the rules in how he retaliated. Nothing the chemist did could be considered a rule break here.
I thought that genuinely not knowing an obscure fact (Chloral hydrate the classic antag's murder chem of choice that rapidly sleeps you and is used for lethal injections is actually only lethal in multi-syringe amounts so you cant legally consider it lethal escalation when someone runs up to you in a fight and shoots you with it) generally gave you a certain amount of good faith protections, like when sec execute the wrong person because of a good faith mistake (detective called the wrong persons prints or whatever) or a fresh assistant doing the SM puts the bypass to max they dont get in as much trouble for it?

Sinfulpiss had the initiative to drink multiver, so he knows he isn't in any immediate danger. Dismembering the chemist that was in critical condition achieved nothing other than to fuck them up.

Indie-ana Jones · Mon Sep 25, 2023 5:25 pm

Is there any way to verify what was in a syringe gun other than what the chemist tells you what was in it? I'd assume anything getting shot at me via syringe gun is probably intent to kill.

Not-Dorsidarf · Mon Sep 25, 2023 5:28 pm

Indie-ana Jones wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 5:25 pm Is there any way to verify what was in a syringe gun other than what the chemist tells you what was in it? I'd assume anything getting shot at me via syringe gun is probably intent to kill.

Not really, but that's not really relevant to this appeal since Sinful believed the chemist.

Turbonerd wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 5:24 pm
Not-Dorsidarf wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 5:19 pm

Vekter wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:45 pm Right, but Sinful had enough information to know what was in that syringe when he made the choice to dismember the chemist. He was incorrect in believing the chemist had tried to kill him and broke the rules in how he retaliated. Nothing the chemist did could be considered a rule break here.
I thought that genuinely not knowing an obscure fact (Chloral hydrate the classic antag's murder chem of choice that rapidly sleeps you and is used for lethal injections is actually only lethal in multi-syringe amounts so you cant legally consider it lethal escalation when someone runs up to you in a fight and shoots you with it) generally gave you a certain amount of good faith protections, like when sec execute the wrong person because of a good faith mistake (detective called the wrong persons prints or whatever) or a fresh assistant doing the SM puts the bypass to max they dont get in as much trouble for it?
Sinfulpiss had the initiative to drink multiver, so he knows he isn't in any immediate danger. Dismembering the chemist that was in critical condition achieved nothing other than to fuck them up.

Makes sense

TheLoLSwat · Post by **TheLoLSwat** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 5:37 pm #705761

Vekter wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:12 pm
TheLoLSwat wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:03 pm getting your limbs removed (in medbay) for shooting someone with a syringe wordlessly (in medbay) is very standard fuck around and find out ngl
Sinful wasn't medical staff, he had no business being in medbay and certainly not dragging a fight from outside of medbay to inside it. If anything, getting injected with potassium and water for killing someone in medbay is fuck around and find out.

exactly, both are IC. Seeing a fight in your department and jumping immediately to shooting a syringe gun into the guy who wont let up is them fucking around and finding out, but getting chopped up in your department for doing that is you being on the receiving end of finding out

datorangebottle · Mon Sep 25, 2023 6:05 pm

CPTANT wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 8:44 am If it requires a multi paragraph post by the guy that implemented the feature to explain the consequences, then maybe this isn't knowledge every random player should be expected to know.

1. sinfulbliss was reasonable to assume he was shot with a lethal substance with the knowledge he had.

2. Being shot with a lethal substance is antagonistic behaviour

Conclusion: dumb note.

Also obvious metagrudging.

Fully agree with this post.
For those saying Chloral Hydrate isn't a lethal substance: you have no way of knowing what the person will do with you once you're incapacitated, making it a lethal substance- once you're down, you can't do anything about it. Chloral Hydrate is nonlethal in the same way a stun baton is nonlethal; if you're not wearing a bright red security uniform, and you wordlessly try to incapacitate me, I'm going to assume you were trying to kill me and respond very lethally.

conrad · Post by **conrad** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 6:06 pm #705765

Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 12:34 pm 7/10 thread title, very pleased conrad keep it up

blackdav123 · Post by **blackdav123** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 6:23 pm #705768

datorangebottle wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 6:05 pm Chloral Hydrate is nonlethal in the same way a stun baton is nonlethal; if you're not wearing a bright red security uniform, and you wordlessly try to incapacitate me, I'm going to assume you were trying to kill me and respond very lethally.

conrad · Post by **conrad** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 7:01 pm #705770

blackdav123 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 6:23 pm
datorangebottle wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 6:05 pm Chloral Hydrate is nonlethal in the same way a stun baton is nonlethal; if you're not wearing a bright red security uniform, and you wordlessly try to incapacitate me, I'm going to assume you were trying to kill me and respond very lethally.

Yeah but the guy was wearing a bright blue chemist uniform wasn't he?

Sinful started beating up a clown in front of his place of work, so he shot sinful with a syringe. Sinful's response was to crit him.

If this was the end of it, I'd be a happy camper and completely disagree with the note.

However, Sinful then proceeded to dismember and rob the guy. That's what got him noted.

Am I missing something here? And I'm not talking about the creepy behaviour. Vekter already disclosed that he banned the other guy for that.

Boot · Post by **Boot** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 7:31 pm #705772

conrad wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 7:01 pm
Chloral Hydrate is nonlethal in the same way a stun baton is nonlethal; if you're not wearing a bright red security uniform, and you wordlessly try to incapacitate me, I'm going to assume you were trying to kill me and respond very lethally.

Yeah but the guy was wearing a bright blue chemist uniform wasn't he?

Sinful started beating up a clown in front of his place of work, so he shot sinful with a syringe. Sinful's response was to crit him.

If this was the end of it, I'd be a happy camper and completely disagree with the note.

However, Sinful then proceeded to dismember and rob the guy. That's what got him noted.

Am I missing something here? And I'm not talking about the creepy behaviour. Vekter already disclosed that he banned the other guy for that.

So heres a question right. Escalation rules says

Escalation rules wrote: Conflict is automatically suspended when one participant is dead or incapacitated. A player who uses the state of incapacitation to take further action against the downed party chooses to extend the ongoing conflict past its original endpoint, and opens themselves up to further reprisal to avenge damage or recover stolen possessions.

Couldn't it be said that robbing/dismembering counts as an IC issue that is just following escalation rules?
If not then what do you think 'avenge damage' is in regards to?

conrad · Post by **conrad** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 7:46 pm #705774

Boot wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 7:31 pm
conrad wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 7:01 pm
Chloral Hydrate is nonlethal in the same way a stun baton is nonlethal; if you're not wearing a bright red security uniform, and you wordlessly try to incapacitate me, I'm going to assume you were trying to kill me and respond very lethally.

Yeah but the guy was wearing a bright blue chemist uniform wasn't he?

Sinful started beating up a clown in front of his place of work, so he shot sinful with a syringe. Sinful's response was to crit him.

If this was the end of it, I'd be a happy camper and completely disagree with the note.

However, Sinful then proceeded to dismember and rob the guy. That's what got him noted.

Am I missing something here? And I'm not talking about the creepy behaviour. Vekter already disclosed that he banned the other guy for that.
So heres a question right. Escalation rules says
Escalation rules wrote: Conflict is automatically suspended when one participant is dead or incapacitated. A player who uses the state of incapacitation to take further action against the downed party chooses to extend the ongoing conflict past its original endpoint, and opens themselves up to further reprisal to avenge damage or recover stolen possessions.
Couldn't it be said that robbing/dismembering counts as an IC issue that is just following escalation rules?
If not then what do you think 'avenge damage' is in regards to?

That's ignoring the rest of the escalation policy.

From what I understand, Sinful delimbed the guy, robbed him and left. That isn't exactly showing effort in getting them treated.

The syringe wasn't lethal. At the end of the day, Sinful's character didn't die. The guy died and was way more inconvenienced. I have fired triacid syringes at tiders as CMO with no adminstrative issue since if you're breaking into my department and causing trouble I'm assuming you're either an antag or a shitter. That bit is entirely within the realm of possibility for the chemist, and people are just choosing to ignore that because of some other behaviour that was already dealt with adminstratively and was, by sinful's own admission, unrelated to the incident of the note (well, his admission until his very last message where he changed his mind).

There are many circumstances where this note could've been completely invalid. If the chemist was, in fact, an unrelated crewmember to medbay. If sinful found that his PDA was unlocked with TC shop open, or if he found a bunch of suspicious chemicals on the guy. So far, it was "I started beating up a clown in medbay, the chemist shot me with a sleepy chem. So I delimbed the chemist, stole his stuff and now I'm mad I was noted for it." Honestly, with these facts in place, I'd have daybanned him for an unjustified kill.

If I got the facts wrong please feel free to correct me. I'm very easily convinced.

Boot · Post by **Boot** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 8:23 pm #705776

conrad wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 7:46 pm
Boot wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 7:31 pm
conrad wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 7:01 pm
Chloral Hydrate is nonlethal in the same way a stun baton is nonlethal; if you're not wearing a bright red security uniform, and you wordlessly try to incapacitate me, I'm going to assume you were trying to kill me and respond very lethally.

Yeah but the guy was wearing a bright blue chemist uniform wasn't he?

Sinful started beating up a clown in front of his place of work, so he shot sinful with a syringe. Sinful's response was to crit him.

If this was the end of it, I'd be a happy camper and completely disagree with the note.

However, Sinful then proceeded to dismember and rob the guy. That's what got him noted.

Am I missing something here? And I'm not talking about the creepy behaviour. Vekter already disclosed that he banned the other guy for that.
So heres a question right. Escalation rules says
Escalation rules wrote: Conflict is automatically suspended when one participant is dead or incapacitated. A player who uses the state of incapacitation to take further action against the downed party chooses to extend the ongoing conflict past its original endpoint, and opens themselves up to further reprisal to avenge damage or recover stolen possessions.
Couldn't it be said that robbing/dismembering counts as an IC issue that is just following escalation rules?
If not then what do you think 'avenge damage' is in regards to?
That's ignoring the rest of the escalation policy.

From what I understand, Sinful delimbed the guy, robbed him and left. That isn't exactly showing effort in getting them treated.

The syringe wasn't lethal. At the end of the day, Sinful's character didn't die. The guy died and was way more inconvenienced. I have fired triacid syringes at tiders as CMO with no adminstrative issue since if you're breaking into my department and causing trouble I'm assuming you're either an antag or a shitter. That bit is entirely within the realm of possibility for the chemist, and people are just choosing to ignore that because of some other behaviour that was already dealt with adminstratively and was, by sinful's own admission, unrelated to the incident of the note (well, his admission until his very last message where he changed his mind).

There are many circumstances where this note could've been completely invalid. If the chemist was, in fact, an unrelated crewmember to medbay. If sinful found that his PDA was unlocked with TC shop open, or if he found a bunch of suspicious chemicals on the guy. So far, it was "I started beating up a clown in medbay, the chemist shot me with a sleepy chem. So I delimbed the chemist, stole his stuff and now I'm mad I was noted for it." Honestly, with these facts in place, I'd have daybanned him for an unjustified kill.

If I got the facts wrong please feel free to correct me. I'm very easily convinced.

If you wanna run down the full escalation path we can.
Axle fights with clown in medical <- Aggressor
Medical lad fires syringe <- Them escalating it to violence
Axle kills them <- ending the fight
Axle robs/dismembers them <- This is them going a step further, opening themself up to the medical lad through the revenge section
Axle goes back into medical and kills them again via throat slit <- This is where he has broken escalation rules if we are to say that he didn't have reason to assume he is an antag

Like this is the timeline as I know it to be correct. You might disagree that Axle should've killed them(you said you don't) but escalation policy does open up an aggressor to steal/an undefined damaging meme on an incapacitated player.
I also really don't understand why you are running back to the cope of "well the syringe wasn't lethal" when you were saying that its nonlethal in the same way a stunbaton is nonlethal. Like what exactly are you trying to say here?

Pepper · Post by **Pepper** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:32 pm #705782

Vekter wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:44 pm
I'm not.

There's some context missing here by explicit request of Sinful but I did take the matter of what happened in a later round very seriously when it was brought to my attention. The twink comment was never mentioned to me as a reason for Sinful's actions and the matter regarding Pepperoni printing those stupid posters and later impersonating him as a comms agent was handled in both cases to Sinful's satisfaction.

This is disengenious - Sinful simply said he did not want to publicize the logs by making an admin complaint on Archie - speaking of...

Archie700 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:07 pm I think we need to state that ultimately, for this case, the next two incidents do not matter for this judgement, which was confined to only the first round.

If we're going to use evidence from the next two rounds to say "sinful doesn't deserve this note", then we would going far outside what we usually do for overescalation judgements

New information revealed to me says that you're directly involved with this specific course of events. It would be nice for you to mention that instead of astroturfing this thread.

Vekter wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:44 pm
I appreciate both you and Pepper's concerns, though. I always take matters of sexual harassment seriously regardless of gender. Had it been listed as a reason for his actions, I would have addressed it in the appeal.

In your discord ticket - which you dragged on for over twelve hours, by the way, SInful directly brought up the sexual harassment logs to which you repeatedly waved them away saying "this is about you." You didn't take it seriously at all... it was only after repeated attempts to try and look at the complaining parties conduct (in his own words, sinful had to "force" it out of you), that any kind of care was given on the situation at all. Even after the fact, you still refuse to acknowledge that this behavior happened before and after their fight. Instead of taking much more important logs of sexual harassment seriously, you continually tried to weasel your way out of it by calling it "Not your problem", then pressing on with hounding sinful over killing the guy who was harassing him to begin with.

Vekter wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:58 pm I spent an hour yesterday talking to both Sinful and the head admins about the best way to address specifically JUST the harassment issue here, so you can miss me with that "omg he doesn't care " shit.

This is just untrue... as I mentioned above you repeatedly handwaved these logs to sinful in your ticket, and despite his attempt at reaching out for help you continue to pretend like his words had no impact on his delimbing of the chemist (BEFORE their syringe interaction) purely on the basis that he didn't express it to you in a manner that you found to be somehow appropriate.

Vekter wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:58 pm The fact that I didn't slam dunk the guy who did it and then turn around and gently pat Sinful on the head and say "it's okay, your actions were justified because he said mean things about you" doesn't mean I don't care about the impact his words had.

Nobody is asking you to be patronizing. Adults tend to be able to look at the totality of a circumstance with some semblance of empathy - in this particular instance you have this iron-clad delusion that sinful can only have acted in bad faith during this fight.

Vekter wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:45 pm Nothing the chemist did could be considered a rule break here.

Calling someone a "twinky femboy" and shooting them full of a date rape drug is not something you could consider rulebreaking? You are sick.

Once again - since you completely ignored my post on the previous page - silence is not consent. Sinful may not have ahelped for a variety of reasons, that doesn't make the fact that he was retaliating against someone sexually harassing him ingame any less potent. You just choose to ignore it because it's inconvenient for you. This goes beyond just standard jannie shittery - you're actively victim blaming here.

btw guys - Vekter's idea of taking this 'super seriously' is giving the guy who sexually harassed sinful not only before this fight but for MULTIPLE rounds after the fact - going as far as to impersonate him as a comms agent and say heinous shit with his name is to begrudgingly give him a two day ban. Those two guys who were slapping eachother in dorms and going "AAA,AAA,AAA" on Terry got banned for 10x longer than that.

!	Message from: Cheshify
	Rule 7: Please be respectful of other users. You can disagree with someone without being a hostile douchebag. This post only acts to spread slander about an admin, aside from being utterly toxic. Think before you post, and don't make up random facts trying to get people to hate on an admin.

Post by **Vekter** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:36 pm #705783

Pepper wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:32 pm
Vekter wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:44 pm
I appreciate both you and Pepper's concerns, though. I always take matters of sexual harassment seriously regardless of gender. Had it been listed as a reason for his actions, I would have addressed it in the appeal.

In your discord ticket - which you dragged on for over twelve hours, by the way, SInful directly brought up the sexual harassment logs to which you repeatedly waved them away saying "this is about you." You didn't take it seriously at all... it was only after repeated attempts to try and look at the complaining parties conduct (in his own words, sinful had to "force" it out of you), that any kind of care was given on the situation at all. Even after the fact, you still refuse to acknowledge that this behavior happened before and after their fight. Instead of taking much more important logs of sexual harassment seriously, you continually tried to weasel your way out of it by calling it "Not your problem", then pressing on with hounding sinful over killing the guy who was harassing him to begin with.

Would you care to explain to me how you had access to a private Discord ticket between an admin and a player? That information isn't meant to be shared, so unless Sinful directly gave it to you, you shouldn't be able to see it.

Pepper · Post by **Pepper** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:40 pm #705784

Vekter wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:36 pm Would you care to explain to me how you had access to a private Discord ticket between an admin and a player? That information isn't meant to be shared, so unless Sinful directly gave it to you, you shouldn't be able to see it.

This information was shared to me because you are actively trying to lie about your dismissal of his attempts at getting help.

Post by **Vekter** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:58 pm #705785

Pepper wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:40 pm
Vekter wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:36 pm Would you care to explain to me how you had access to a private Discord ticket between an admin and a player? That information isn't meant to be shared, so unless Sinful directly gave it to you, you shouldn't be able to see it.
This information was shared to me because you are actively trying to lie about your dismissal of his attempts at getting help.

Cool. I'm done talking about it at this point. If you have issue with how I handled it, the complaints forum is right there my dude. Otherwise I'm taking a break from the forums.

Capsandi · Post by **Capsandi** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:59 pm #705787

Holy shit this peanut rules! It even has goof!

Post by **NoxVS** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 10:01 pm #705788

Pepper wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:32 pm In your discord ticket - which you dragged on for over twelve hours, by the way

It's a discord ticket. The platform where neither party is always going to be there at the same time. You can cover twelve hours of discord discussion with 3 messages.

I am going to take a wild guess that it wasn't twelve hours of constant discussion in which Vekter had a gun pointed at Sinful the entire time, demanding immediate responses. If the ticket dragged on for twelve hours, eleven of those were probably spent waiting for the other person to respond.

Capsandi · Post by **Capsandi** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 10:02 pm #705789

Pepper wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:32 pm blah blah blah
Archie700 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:07 pm I think we need to state that ultimately, for this case, the next two incidents do not matter for this judgement, which was confined to only the first round.

If we're going to use evidence from the next two rounds to say "sinful doesn't deserve this note", then we would going far outside what we usually do for overescalation judgements
New information revealed to me says that you're directly involved with this specific course of events. It would be nice for you to mention that instead of astroturfing this thread.

In these parts, we call "astroturfing" by its real name: empty posting.

TypicalRig · Post by **TypicalRig** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 10:03 pm #705790

Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:20 pm
Vekter wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 1:49 pm
Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 1:48 pm >come get your axle brady catboy prints in the library

ahhhhh this explains it, i myself have been victim to axles over escalation when it comes to giving out axle brady catboy prints

ironically it was vekter that answered that ahelp
Yeah, and I deleted that stupid painting because this is probably the fourth time I've been made aware of someone using it to antagonize Sinful.

Again - not relevant to the issue at hand. Pepperoni got blasted for metagrudging the next round, but it has nothing to do with what we're discussing here.

E: Also this thread title sucks because I gave him an opportunity to modify the note to be more accurate, he's the one that immediately pushed it to headmins.
i just really like the painting i think its funny

nobody tell vekter that a second version of it exists named AI edition. art lives on.

Pepper · Post by **Pepper** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 10:10 pm #705791

NoxVS wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 10:01 pm
It's a discord ticket. The platform where neither party is always going to be there at the same time. You can cover twelve hours of discord discussion with 3 messages.

I am going to take a wild guess that it wasn't twelve hours of constant discussion in which Vekter had a gun pointed at Sinful the entire time, demanding immediate responses. If the ticket dragged on for twelve hours, eleven of those were probably spent waiting for the other person to respond.

The ticket was opened at three in the morning and was responded to the next day. The reason it's dragged out so long is because Vekter closed the ticket then rebwoinked sinful for the same thing like 10 hours later.

Post by **Timberpoes** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 10:14 pm #705792

NoxVS wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 10:01 pm
Pepper wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:32 pm In your discord ticket - which you dragged on for over twelve hours, by the way
It's a discord ticket. The platform where neither party is always going to be there at the same time. You can cover twelve hours of discord discussion with 3 messages.

I am going to take a wild guess that it wasn't twelve hours of constant discussion in which Vekter had a gun pointed at Sinful the entire time, demanding immediate responses. If the ticket dragged on for twelve hours, eleven of those were probably spent waiting for the other person to respond.

Uh, yeah.

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

Vekter — Yesterday at 09:26
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 10:23
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 10:55
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 13:24
Vekter — Yesterday at 15:54
Vekter — Yesterday at 16:38
Vekter — Yesterday at 17:01
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 19:38
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 19:40
Vekter — Yesterday at 19:40
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 19:41
Vekter — Yesterday at 19:41
Vekter — Yesterday at 19:41
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 19:42
Vekter — Yesterday at 19:42
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 19:45
Vekter — Yesterday at 19:46
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 19:48
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 19:49
Vekter — Yesterday at 19:50
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 19:51
Vekter — Yesterday at 19:51
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 19:52
Vekter — Yesterday at 19:53
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 19:53
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 19:55
Vekter — Yesterday at 20:08
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:10
Vekter — Yesterday at 20:10
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:11
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:12
Vekter — Yesterday at 20:12
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:13
Vekter — Yesterday at 20:13
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:14
Vekter — Yesterday at 20:14
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:15
Vekter — Yesterday at 20:15
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:16
Vekter — Yesterday at 20:16
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:17
Vekter — Yesterday at 20:17
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:17
Vekter — Yesterday at 20:18
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:19
Vekter — Yesterday at 20:20
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:21
Vekter — Yesterday at 20:21
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:21
Vekter — Yesterday at 20:21
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:21
Vekter — Yesterday at 20:22
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:24
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:26
Vekter — Yesterday at 20:27
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:27
Vekter — Yesterday at 20:27
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:28
Vekter — Yesterday at 20:28
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:28
Vekter — Yesterday at 20:28
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:29
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:29
Vekter — Yesterday at 20:38
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:39
Vekter — Today at 05:19
Vekter — Today at 05:31
sinfulbliss — Today at 05:46
Vekter — Today at 05:49
sinfulbliss — Today at 05:49
Vekter — Today at 05:50
sinfulbliss — Today at 05:51
sinfulbliss — Today at 05:51
Vekter — Today at 05:52
sinfulbliss — Today at 05:52
Vekter — Today at 05:55
sinfulbliss — Today at 05:56
Vekter — Today at 05:56
sinfulbliss — Today at 05:59
Vekter — Today at 06:01
sinfulbliss — Today at 06:03

Just a standard Discord conversation flow, really.

Mon Sep 25, 2023 10:23 pm

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 10:14 pm

NoxVS wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 10:01 pm
Pepper wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:32 pm In your discord ticket - which you dragged on for over twelve hours, by the way
It's a discord ticket. The platform where neither party is always going to be there at the same time. You can cover twelve hours of discord discussion with 3 messages.

I am going to take a wild guess that it wasn't twelve hours of constant discussion in which Vekter had a gun pointed at Sinful the entire time, demanding immediate responses. If the ticket dragged on for twelve hours, eleven of those were probably spent waiting for the other person to respond.

Uh, yeah.

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

Vekter — Yesterday at 09:26
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 10:23
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 10:55
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 13:24
Vekter — Yesterday at 15:54
Vekter — Yesterday at 16:38
Vekter — Yesterday at 17:01
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 19:38
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 19:40
Vekter — Yesterday at 19:40
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 19:41
Vekter — Yesterday at 19:41
Vekter — Yesterday at 19:41
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 19:42
Vekter — Yesterday at 19:42
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 19:45
Vekter — Yesterday at 19:46
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 19:48
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 19:49
Vekter — Yesterday at 19:50
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 19:51
Vekter — Yesterday at 19:51
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 19:52
Vekter — Yesterday at 19:53
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 19:53
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 19:55
Vekter — Yesterday at 20:08
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:10
Vekter — Yesterday at 20:10
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:11
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:12
Vekter — Yesterday at 20:12
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:13
Vekter — Yesterday at 20:13
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:14
Vekter — Yesterday at 20:14
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:15
Vekter — Yesterday at 20:15
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:16
Vekter — Yesterday at 20:16
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:17
Vekter — Yesterday at 20:17
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:17
Vekter — Yesterday at 20:18
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:19
Vekter — Yesterday at 20:20
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:21
Vekter — Yesterday at 20:21
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:21
Vekter — Yesterday at 20:21
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:21
Vekter — Yesterday at 20:22
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:24
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:26
Vekter — Yesterday at 20:27
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:27
Vekter — Yesterday at 20:27
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:28
Vekter — Yesterday at 20:28
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:28
Vekter — Yesterday at 20:28
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:29
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:29
Vekter — Yesterday at 20:38
sinfulbliss — Yesterday at 20:39
Vekter — Today at 05:19
Vekter — Today at 05:31
sinfulbliss — Today at 05:46
Vekter — Today at 05:49
sinfulbliss — Today at 05:49
Vekter — Today at 05:50
sinfulbliss — Today at 05:51
sinfulbliss — Today at 05:51
Vekter — Today at 05:52
sinfulbliss — Today at 05:52
Vekter — Today at 05:55
sinfulbliss — Today at 05:56
Vekter — Today at 05:56
sinfulbliss — Today at 05:59
Vekter — Today at 06:01
sinfulbliss — Today at 06:03

Just a standard Discord conversation flow, really.

Really its just something that is dangerously close to misrepresenting things in order to stir up drama. Which isn't allowed by the way. As a friendly reminder to readers. Especially if you're going to be a hostile douche-waffle about it.

Post by **Timberpoes** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 10:26 pm #705795

Also another admin handled a bunch of the shit you're malding about, Pepper.

Vekter commenting on the actions of another admin is pointless, because it's against conduct to interfere in the notes or bans of other admins. Vekter was objectively correct to hand-waive it, it was 1. another issue from 2. another ticket 3. involving another admin that 4. gave their own independent ruling.

So you're kinda complaining a whole bunch about Vekter refusing to break admin conduct, framing it like he did something he didn't.

I'd be careful going ham on part of the facts and I'd be very careful trying to catch-22 individual admins by applying creative interpretation of tickets that you weren't involved in but have been shared with you in private.

Acting as a proxy in this way on behalf of others via privately shared tickets will see you held to the same standards as if that player themselves were making these comments. If someone investigates your allegations and finds them to be lacking in merit, you may not be happy with the consequences.

conrad · Post by **conrad** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 10:33 pm #705796

Boot wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 8:23 pm this mess here

I don't remember being the one that said that part of the stunbaton I just replied that "it's ok if sec on red uniform has baton" with "it's a chemist on uniform with syringe gun" and you've left me confused now so I'm not responding to any of that lmao

Kendrickorium · Mon Sep 25, 2023 10:42 pm

I THINK ITS GETTING TO BE ABOUT THAT TIME

conrad · Post by **conrad** » Mon Sep 25, 2023 10:48 pm #705799

Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 10:42 pm I THINK ITS GETTING TO BE ABOUT THAT TIME

I had to fight the urge to start a count with an internal jihad on my mind palace.