Immovable note supplexed by headmin review nut

[conrad]

viewtopic.php?f=7&p=705624#p705624

20 minutes. Can we get any lower?

[kieth4]

Wtf is this note

[kinnebian]

► Show Spoiler

Hello, coder here to provide objective truth in this case about Chloral Hydrate because Chloral Hydrate's name is being besmirched in this PR.

The full code of Chloral Hydrate, spoilered.

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

/datum/reagent/toxin/chloralhydrate
	name = "Chloral Hydrate"
	description = "A powerful sedative that induces confusion and drowsiness before putting its target to sleep."
	silent_toxin = TRUE
	reagent_state = SOLID
	creation_purity = REAGENT_STANDARD_PURITY
	purity = REAGENT_STANDARD_PURITY
	color = "#000067" // rgb: 0, 0, 103
	toxpwr = 0
	metabolization_rate = 1.5 * REAGENTS_METABOLISM
	ph = 11
	inverse_chem = /datum/reagent/impurity/chloralax
	chemical_flags = REAGENT_CAN_BE_SYNTHESIZED

/datum/reagent/toxin/chloralhydrate/on_mob_life(mob/living/carbon/affected_mob, seconds_per_tick, times_fired)
	switch(current_cycle)
		if(1 to 10)
			affected_mob.adjust_confusion(2 SECONDS * REM * normalise_creation_purity() * seconds_per_tick)
			affected_mob.adjust_drowsiness(4 SECONDS * REM * normalise_creation_purity() * seconds_per_tick)
		if(10 to 50)
			affected_mob.Sleeping(40 * REM * normalise_creation_purity() * seconds_per_tick)
			. = TRUE
		if(51 to INFINITY)
			affected_mob.Sleeping(40 * REM * normalise_creation_purity() * seconds_per_tick)
			affected_mob.adjustToxLoss(1 * (current_cycle - 50) * REM * normalise_creation_purity() * seconds_per_tick, FALSE, required_biotype = affected_biotype)
			. = TRUE
	..()

The important sections we care about here:

Code: Select all

/datum/reagent/toxin/chloralhydrate
	name = "Chloral Hydrate"
	description = "A powerful sedative that induces confusion and drowsiness before putting its target to sleep."
	toxpwr = 0
	metabolization_rate = 1.5 * REAGENTS_METABOLISM

/datum/reagent/toxin/chloralhydrate/on_mob_life(mob/living/carbon/affected_mob, seconds_per_tick, times_fired)
	switch(current_cycle)
		if(1 to 10)
			affected_mob.adjust_confusion(2 SECONDS * REM * normalise_creation_purity() * seconds_per_tick)
			affected_mob.adjust_drowsiness(4 SECONDS * REM * normalise_creation_purity() * seconds_per_tick)
		if(10 to 50)
			affected_mob.Sleeping(40 * REM * normalise_creation_purity() * seconds_per_tick)
			. = TRUE
		if(51 to INFINITY)
			affected_mob.Sleeping(40 * REM * normalise_creation_purity() * seconds_per_tick)
			affected_mob.adjustToxLoss(1 * (current_cycle - 50) * REM * normalise_creation_purity() * seconds_per_tick, FALSE, required_biotype = affected_biotype)
			. = TRUE
	..()

The metabolization rate of a chemical is how many chemicals are purged per tick, or in more player-friendly terms, how many ticks it takes to fully remove a chemical from your body.
1.5 * REAGENTS_METABOLISM is 1.5 * 0.2 per https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... bs.dm#L463
So, you lose 0.3 units of Chloral Hydrate a tick.

As you can see by the on_mob_life of chloral hydrate, it checks the current cycle every tick. current_cycle is the number of ticks the chemical has been in your body since it was most recently added, ie. how many ticks since you were first injected this time. If you run out of the chemical and reinject it, current_cycle resets back down to 0. Current cycle is equal to the number of ticks it's been in your system.

As you can see, for the first 1 to 50 ticks in your system, Chloral Hydrate does zero damage.

Chloral Hydrate only begins attempting to damage you after it has been in your system for 51 or more ticks.

Code: Select all

1 * (current_cycle - 50) * REM * normalise_creation_purity() * seconds_per_tick

Let's break down that equation for damage, because it looks complicated.

Code: Select all

1 * 1 * REM * normalise_creation_purity() * seconds_per_tick

The base damage is 1. We then multiply that by current_cycle - 50. So, assuming you just ticked over to the 51th tick, that's 51 - 50, which the astute in the audience will realize is 1.
We are now at 1 * 1 * REM * normalize_creation_purity * seconds_per_tick.
Seconds per tick is a input variable to deal with time scaling and the fact that byond ticks do not cleanly line up with seconds. This is usually 2 because there's on average 2 seconds per tick, so let's put that in there.

Code: Select all

1 * 1 * REM * normalise_creation_purity() * 2

REM is defined here:
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... bs.dm#L465
It's a complicated thing to deal with old chemistry behavior and shit. All we need to know here is it is 0.2 / 0.4 at the time of this post, equalling 0.5.

Code: Select all

1 * 1 * 0.5 * normalise_creation_purity() * 2

normalise_creation_purity() is a proc that runs to determine the purity impact and returns between 1 to 0. Let's assume for the sake of argument this Chloral Hydrate was 100% pure free range chloral hydrate he harvested from botany and therefore was 100% pure.

Code: Select all

1 * 1 * 0.5 * 1 * 2

Now, let's run through that equation with good ol' PEMDAS, right to left.
1 * 1 is 1.
1 * 0.5 is 0.5.
0.5 * 1 is 0.5.
0.5 * 2 is 1.

That means that the damage is 1 on the 51st tick of Chloral Hydrate, and can only ever be 1 or lower.

Now, the chemist shot you with 15 units of Chloral Hydrate.

Remember when we calculated metabolism? That metabolizes out every tick in that ..() at the end of on_mob_life.

What's 15 / 0.3? Why, that's 50.
So, assuming you ticked 51 times, the maximum damage you could possibly take from a 15u chloral hydrate syringe, if it was the only syringe you had in you, would be 1 tox damage.

To verify this and actually determine at what point Chloral Hydrate becomes lethal, I went ahead and used my 10 years of programming experience to make a simulator for chloral hydrate inflicted death.

As you can see, one 15u chloral hydrate syringe literally cannot kill you. It can do, at most, exactly 1 toxin damage. So no, a 15u chloral hydrate syringe is, factually, non-lethal.
For context, punches do 3 to 5 damage a punch.

And because I know it'll be brought up, you are told what syringe is being shot at you and hits you in very large red text when you are shot with a syringe.
Here is the section of code where we rename projectiles fired from the syringe gun to the name of the syringe, which would include the type of syringe and thus tell you if it's a normal 15u syringe or an expanded capacity bluespace syringe capable of holding lethal doses of Chloral Hydrate.

The code is below in the spoiler if you wish to check my work. The results speak for themselves.

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

if __name__ == "__main__":
    crit = 100
    death = 200
    damage_dealt = 0
    syringe_volume = 15
    metab_rate = 0.3
    current_syringe = 0
    num_of_syringes = 0
    current_cycle = 0
    crit_triggered = False
    total_processed = 0
    seconds_elapsed = 0
    while damage_dealt < death:
        if current_cycle >= 51:
            damage_dealt += (1 * (current_cycle - 50) * 0.5 * 1 * 2)
        current_syringe += metab_rate
        total_processed += metab_rate
        seconds_elapsed += 2
        if syringe_volume <= current_syringe:
            num_of_syringes += 1
            current_syringe = 0
        current_cycle += 1
        if damage_dealt > crit and not crit_triggered:
            print("At cycle " + str(current_cycle) + " with " + str(num_of_syringes+(current_syringe/syringe_volume)) + " syringes for a total of "+ str(total_processed) +"u, entered crit. This took " + str(seconds_elapsed) + " seconds.")
            crit_triggered = True
    print("At cycle " + str(current_cycle) + " with " + str(num_of_syringes+(current_syringe/syringe_volume)) + " syringes for a total of "+ str(total_processed) +"u, died. This took " + str(seconds_elapsed) + " seconds.")

This is great and all, but it is not relevant because it is completely unreasonable for a normal player to know this info.

[Zeckle]

Being shot with something incapacitating or otherwise stunned does not give you the right to kill them. If he just crit them there probably wouldn't be a note. If crew wants to act like sec, they are held to the same standards as sec.

[Striders13]

can someone explain what goof wrote in one word or less, there are too many numbers to read

[technokek]

can someone explain what goof wrote in one word or less, there are too many numbers to read

a normal syringe with chloral hydrate can never kill you and does 1 toxin damage max

[Striders13]

can someone explain what goof wrote in one word or less, there are too many numbers to read

a normal syringe with chloral hydrate can never kill you and does 1 toxin damage max

thanks i'm not literate

[dendydoom]

if i see someone being beaten while they're in crit then i will often step in to stop the attacker because it seems like a reasonable and human response to seeing violence enacted against someone who can't defend themselves. the exception obviously being if they're dealing with an obvious antagonist but i didn't read anywhere that the clown was in a blood red hardsuit or had an armblade out. i don't personally see someone trying to stop you from killing someone else as antagonistic behaviour given the circumstances.

where i will agree with sinful (gasp) is that knowing how much chloral hydrate will fuck you up is not necessarily common knowledge. i know 15u isn't enough to kill someone but then again i don't know how much IS. i would probably react the same way if it happened in a vacuum, ie i was standing around minding my own business and a doctor shot me in the ass with a mystery syringe, but since the inciting incident was your boot connecting with the skull of a limp and supine clown over and over again, it doesn't take a genius to figure out why they might've tried to take you down from a distance to stop you from doing that.

but i'm an mrp cretin so what do i know? this is an enlightened lrp situation my views are worthless.

[Pepper]

I don't see how someone metagrudging the next round over an altercation is 'irrelevant' it just shows he's ahelping it the day after because he's trying to do anything he can to get back at someone he doesn't like.

Plus, this dude is super creepy.


Why would you do this as your first course of action, only to ahelp it hours later?

[dendydoom]

yeah i'm not a fan of that, weird as fuck. thanks for bringing it up. might look into this to be honest.

[kieth4]

I thought it was lethal fully ngl, if someone shot me and I ask what did you shoot me with and they say "death chem" I would shrimply assume antagonist!!

[Pepper]

yeah i'm not a fan of that, weird as fuck. thanks for bringing it up. might look into this to be honest.

Dude is just straight up admitting he's doing shit to try and make sinful mad.

► Show Spoiler

Why oblige him?

Round ID is 215215, the one immediately after the altercation in the note took place. Feel free to look through and watch this guy have a complete fucking meltdown over Axle Brady for an hour and a half nonstop. I guess he thinks that only Sinful needs to follow the rules, and that he's entitled to admin help even after he takes it upon himself to metagrudge.

Surely there's no kind of deep seeded hatred beyond just getting critted for shooting syringes here, guys.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

Disagree with sinful on this one. Chloral hydrate does 0 damage until 30.6u is metabolized. I use it all the time as a nonlethal detainment option in medbay as nonantag for troublemakers.

He's not wrong in that if it was unprompted or unwarranted thats antagonistic, but he's wrong in his repeated assertions that chloral is some kind of inherently traitorous kill chem.

[conrad]

can someone explain what goof wrote in one word or less, there are too many numbers to read

FFFFNNHHHHGGGGGGGGPLLAPAEN

[CPTANT]

If it requires a multi paragraph post by the guy that implemented the feature to explain the consequences, then maybe this isn't knowledge every random player should be expected to know.

1. sinfulbliss was reasonable to assume he was shot with a lethal substance with the knowledge he had.

2. Being shot with a lethal substance is antagonistic behaviour

Conclusion: dumb note.

Also obvious metagrudging.

[Indie-ana Jones]

I thought it was lethal fully ngl, if someone shot me and I ask what did you shoot me with and they say "death chem" I would shrimply assume antagonist!!

Did the dude actually tell Axle it was a death chem he shot him with? I'd beat his ass to hell and back if someone told me they shot me with a 'death chem'. You do not fuck around with chemists, period, so I don't blame anyone for taking action upon getting shot with a syringe gun.

Also, this guy is creepy as hell. This isn't the first time I've seen this catboy Axle Brady stuff either, I initially thought of it as a one-off joke but seeing some of the logs from this guy indicates that whatever's going on is much more disturbing than I would have wagered.

[iwishforducks]

useful knowledge that chloral doesn’t kill at that dosage but ultimately you are still shooting a security officer with a mystery syringe, in which the mystery syringe causes you to sleep and be completely defenseless.

act like an antag…

[kieth4]

I thought it was lethal fully ngl, if someone shot me and I ask what did you shoot me with and they say "death chem" I would shrimply assume antagonist!!

Did the dude actually tell Axle it was a death chem he shot him with? I'd beat his ass to hell and back if someone told me they shot me with a 'death chem'.

They said choral, which as far as I am aware is a death chem but apparently it isn't unless you dose it correctly?

[iwishforducks]

i think the only thing standing ground is that dismembering the doctor isn’t Proper Escalation. however this isn’t escalation, this is the doctor being treated as an antagonist.

[dendydoom]

useful knowledge that chloral doesn’t kill at that dosage but ultimately you are still shooting a security officer with a mystery syringe, in which the mystery syringe causes you to sleep and be completely defenseless.

act like an antag…

from what goof posted sinful wasn't sec but an assistant?

i'm confused about this shit man maybe i should just go read the logs

[Indie-ana Jones]

Axle was an assistant according to Statbus.

[iwishforducks]

useful knowledge that chloral doesn’t kill at that dosage but ultimately you are still shooting a security officer with a mystery syringe, in which the mystery syringe causes you to sleep and be completely defenseless.

act like an antag…

from what goof posted sinful wasn't sec but an assistant?

i'm confused about this shit man maybe i should just go read the logs

you’re right whoops idk why i assumed he was playing sec officer. i think i misread “call” as in “security called over” or something like that

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

I thought it was lethal fully ngl, if someone shot me and I ask what did you shoot me with and they say "death chem" I would shrimply assume antagonist!!

Did the dude actually tell Axle it was a death chem he shot him with? I'd beat his ass to hell and back if someone told me they shot me with a 'death chem'.

They said choral, which as far as I am aware is a death chem but apparently it isn't unless you dose it correctly?

It does literally 0 damage until you metabolize 30.6u of it, then after that it does ramping toxin damage. So you can shoot someone with 2 15u syringes for 0 damage dealt besides the small amount of brute from the syringes.

[conrad]

useful knowledge that chloral doesn’t kill at that dosage but ultimately you are still shooting a security officer with a mystery syringe, in which the mystery syringe causes you to sleep and be completely defenseless.

act like an antag…

from what goof posted sinful wasn't sec but an assistant?

i'm confused about this shit man maybe i should just go read the logs

Yeah Dendy but looking at logs during a peanut is for nerds and all we have to go for rn is Sinfu's "why I should be banned" ace attorney checklist, sleehjy little guy and needs to go to beb Vekter being eepy and a COLOSSAL WALL OF TEXT from goof that cannot by all means not have anything peanutty in it but I'm not gonna read that.

Any speculation is speculative and any conclusions are hearsay unless there's some actual logs posted n shit.

[CPTANT]

Axle was an assistant according to Statbus.

Was he deputized?

[conrad]

Axle was an assistant according to Statbus.

Was he deputized?

Why are you asking a question following someone else's mistake? That's like someone going "oh shit he was driving a motorcycle, not a bus, my bad" and you asking "were any of the passengers hurt?"

If he actually WAS deputized I'll spawn myself in the middle of CPH on Sybil and gib myself.

[Pepper]

Did the dude actually tell Axle it was a death chem he shot him with? I'd beat his ass to hell and back if someone told me they shot me with a 'death chem'. You do not fuck around with chemists, period, so I don't blame anyone for taking action upon getting shot with a syringe gun.

Also, this guy is creepy as hell. This isn't the first time I've seen this catboy Axle Brady stuff either, I initially thought of it as a one-off joke but seeing some of the logs from this guy indicates that whatever's going on is much more disturbing than I would have wagered.

Speaking from experience with similar weirdos: if someone says something about you in the vein of being a 'twinky femboy' and immediately follows it up with wordlessly shooting you with a syringe of an unknown reagent, my first assumption would be that they are going to try and do something ERP related, and I don't think I would dawdle around and just let that shit happen.

[Indie-ana Jones]

Speaking from experience with similar weirdos: if someone says something about you in the vein of being a 'twinky femboy' and immediately follows it up with wordlessly shooting you with a syringe of an unknown reagent, my first assumption would be that they are going to try and do something ERP related, and I don't think I would dawdle around and just let that shit happen.

Yeah, the chemist's statements IC and OOC are really offputting. Regardless, I would expect the admin team to look at what Axle did from what he knew, so ultimately I believe it comes down to, "is dismembering and killing someone valid for being shot with a syringe of what could have been anything", and in this case I say yes. If the chemist explained their actions and gave a valid reason for them (Like saying, "I was just trying to stop you from killing the clown") to Axle when he gave them a chance to speak before he killed them, then I would say no, but I think it seems clear that the chemist didn't care about Axle beating up the clown and just wanted to piss him off, especially when the whole catboy Axle thing occurred prior to this.

And again, I am almost 100% certain I've seen this catboy Axle shit before a few days ago. How long has this guy been doing this?

[Pepper]

I would expect the admin team to look at what Axle did from what he knew, so ultimately I believe it comes down to, "is dismembering and killing someone valid for being shot with a syringe of what could have been anything",

As far as I can tell, he said it within earshot of Axle, like 20 seconds before shooting him with a syringe.

► Show Spoiler

(logs abridged)

I've changed my mind - if someone you barely know calls you a 'twinky femboy' to your face, they ought to be valid right then and there - not only after they try and shoot you full of stun chems.

[Scriptis]

holy shit goofball just went wild

goofball for headmin

[kinnebian]

Axle was an assistant according to Statbus.

Was he deputized?

Why are you asking a question following someone else's mistake? That's like someone going "oh shit he was driving a motorcycle, not a bus, my bad" and you asking "were any of the passengers hurt?"

If he actually WAS deputized I'll spawn myself in the middle of CPH on Sybil and gib myself.

hes just asking a question, lay off

[Archie700]

I suggest everyone here read the logs before they jump into conclusions like everyone somehow does

[technokek]

can someone explain what goof wrote in one word or less, there are too many numbers to read

a normal syringe with chloral hydrate can never kill you and does 1 toxin damage max

thanks i'm not literate

you sure?

[kinnebian]

can someone explain what goof wrote in one word or less, there are too many numbers to read

a normal syringe with chloral hydrate can never kill you and does 1 toxin damage max

thanks i'm not literate

you sure?

hes not literate, hes striders

[NecromancerAnne]

I'll be honest, beating someone into crit for shooting you with a syringe is not an exaggeration at all. Chem warfare dorks deserve to get fucked up.

It's maybe a bit much to then leave them in an extremely debilitating state and that's where I think he pushes things. Violently beating someone up then killing, dismembering and then pumping them full of poison for fighting you in their department for beating someone up just comes across as maybe going beyond escalation. I'm not entirely sure he is even a defender in this case as far as escalation goes given the chemist is in his department.

[Turbonerd]

The chemist is a fucking weirdo and should get removed from the servers instantly, but it's not that relevant to the conflict (if it was, he should've just ahelped ages ago).

I think Sinful should focus on his decisions and thought process more around how his character would with IC reasons, rather than what the rules would allow. Checking whether something would make someone valid or not is just cringe. While it's normal to be scared about chloral hydrate getting injected and a beating up might be reasonable; stripping and searching the chemist, interrogating him, finding out that the syringe contains chloral hydrate, then doing a valid check of "chloral hydrate = lethal = he antag = kill" is just so far out of line and isn't a reasonable or sensible response.

If he were to just immerse himself as his character naturally, he would probably not run into so many escalation issues, compared to just doing what he thinks the escalation rules allows him whenever possible. Think ICly, not OOCly.

[conrad]

I'll be honest, beating someone into crit for shooting you with a syringe is not an exaggeration at all. Chem warfare dorks deserve to get fucked up.

It's maybe a bit much to then leave them in an extremely debilitating state and that's where I think he pushes things. Violently beating someone up then killing, dismembering and then pumping them full of poison for fighting you in their department for beating someone up just comes across as maybe going beyond escalation. I'm not entirely sure he is even a defender in this case as far as escalation goes given the chemist is in his department.

This is the vibe I have. If someone shoots a syringe at me I feel what I want to do is beat them to crit and fullstrip them to see if they have antag items. If not, well, I already beat them into crit. I'm also taking their id and their shoes.

Delimbing is where I think this was overstepped. Getting shot by a chemist on their department when you're playing an assistant with a sleepy chem is not really cause for nuggeting them.

Then again, that syringe could be much, much worse, and it's hard to know when you've just been shot.

I'm gonna wait for Vekter or the headmins to put some logs and bring some light to this before I draw any conclusions.

[Kendrickorium]

absolutely based guest appearance in appeal

could this be a surprise sinful goofball teamup arc season?? i'll keep watching.

7/10 thread title, very pleased conrad keep it up

[Not-Dorsidarf]

ill be real I didnt know that chloral is harmless in reasonable quantities. Mostly because i havent heard it mentioned in years, since all the chem reworks happened.

[Pepper]

Very cool that Vekter is completely willing to handwave sexual harassment because the player reacted poorly. Because escalation policy is so much more important, right guys? The intricate details of chem code is really the pressing issue here!

[Vekter]

I don't see how someone metagrudging the next round over an altercation is 'irrelevant' it just shows he's ahelping it the day after because he's trying to do anything he can to get back at someone he doesn't like.

Plus, this dude is super creepy.


Why would you do this as your first course of action, only to ahelp it hours later?

He didn't; he ahelped it as it was happening and it wasn't addressed because nobody was awake/available at the time.

Code: Select all

RELAY: pepperoniplayboy | Ticket #4: Axle Brady just killed me, cut off my legs, stole my ID, backpack, jumpsuit, medical belt, and PDA, all because he was making a massive mess in the medbay and I was trying to get him out and ended up shooting him with a chloral syringe. - No admins online

Very cool that Vekter is completely willing to handwave sexual harassment because the player reacted poorly. Because escalation policy is so much more important, right guys?

This is stupid because I banned him for two days for what you said in that screenshot and archie punished him further for the weird sex shit he said in the round after. It's just not relevant to Sinful's actions in the event he was noted for - he doesn't list it as why he did anything he did and most of the comments happened after he stopped Sinful from killing the clown.

I'll be honest, beating someone into crit for shooting you with a syringe is not an exaggeration at all. Chem warfare dorks deserve to get fucked up.

It's maybe a bit much to then leave them in an extremely debilitating state and that's where I think he pushes things. Violently beating someone up then killing, dismembering and then pumping them full of poison for fighting you in their department for beating someone up just comes across as maybe going beyond escalation. I'm not entirely sure he is even a defender in this case as far as escalation goes given the chemist is in his department.

Anne correct as per usual.

[Kendrickorium]

>come get your axle brady catboy prints in the library

ahhhhh this explains it, i myself have been victim to axles over escalation when it comes to giving out axle brady catboy prints

ironically it was vekter that answered that ahelp

[Vekter]

>come get your axle brady catboy prints in the library

ahhhhh this explains it, i myself have been victim to axles over escalation when it comes to giving out axle brady catboy prints

ironically it was vekter that answered that ahelp

Yeah, and I deleted that stupid painting because this is probably the fourth time I've been made aware of someone using it to antagonize Sinful.

Again - not relevant to the issue at hand. Pepperoni got blasted for metagrudging the next round, but it has nothing to do with what we're discussing here.

E: Also this thread title sucks because I gave him an opportunity to modify the note to be more accurate, he's the one that immediately pushed it to headmins.

[AsbestosSniffer]

Why are we all focusing on another guy who got (temporarily) banned again?

[Pepper]

This is stupid because I banned him for two days for what you said in that screenshot and archie punished him further for the weird sex shit he said in the round after.

What he said prior to their fight is completely relevant to what happened afterward - put yourself in sinful's shoes. Is it not understandable that making lurid remarks toward you in hopes of making you uncomfortable would be enough to push what was already a justified asskicking just that extra step forward to send the message that what was said was completely unacceptable? Why do you immediately jump to the assumption that it's just some sort of careless power flex?

It's just not relevant to Sinful's actions in the event he was noted for - he doesn't list it as why he did anything he did and most of the comments happened after he stopped Sinful from killing the clown.

This is just pathetic.

Sexual harassment among men is notoriously under reported for a variety of reasons. Often times men feel like they cannot speak up about it directly because they'll be viewed as weak, or that no one will take it seriously. Sometimes victims simply refuse to acknowledge or don't even consciously realize the toll it takes on them - which often leads to coping with it in destructive or confusing ways.

Naturally, this is a space video game, and things are often much less extreme than in real life examples. But the Axle Brady catboy twink thing isn't some revolutionary unique idea made up by this one specific player. This kind of treatment of sinful has been ongoing for months - I know for a fact it gets extremely grating and humiliating after a while. Worse yet, since it's "only a game", anyone with the capabilities to step in and do something - like you - often downplay it's importance as a result. Whether this is your stance on it or not, you can't deny that kind of culture permeates /tg/ as a whole, self-evident by the catboy shit's continued prevalence ingame. You're greatly underselling the difficulty of speaking up in this kind of situation - after all, who wants to be the guy putting a downer on things when all you get told is that it's all just 'jokes' and 'having fun'?

It's very clear here that sinful is just opting to self-enforce his own personal boundaries with people, likely due in part to the fact of his 'reputation' as a player among admins and their continued dogging of him. The specific interaction mentioned in this appeal is probably one such example. Just because he doesn't approach you about it doesn't mean that he's perfectly hunky-dory with this extremely weird behavior that seems to just get more and more normalized. Do you want him to make a fucking police report? Are you a cop? Does this not exist until it's in writing? Silence is not consent, dude.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

I think Pepper is right here. It would be one thing if one of Axle's friends was doing this and he was obviously cool with it, but based on this situation and this appeal, the whole axle catboy twink thing is obviously being done maliciously, and I HIGHLY doubt Axle approves of it.

Please seriously consider if you aren't subconsciously downplaying this, Vekter.

[TheRex9001]

I'm wondering why sinful didnt put the sexual harassment stuff in his original 5 points if it was the reason for killing the guy and cutting his limbs off.

(1) If a total stranger tries to kill you or severely harm you, with zero prior interactions, they are acting like an antagonist.
(2) Shooting a syringe of chloral at someone wordlessly qualifies as trying to kill or severely harm them, and therefore they are acting like an antagonist.
(3) "Finding no antagonist gear" is completely irrelevant to whether or not their action was acting like an antag. Heretics often have no gear, traitors don't need to buy gear, lings have no gear -- this shouldn't factor into the decision whatsoever.
(4) Vekter claims I should have realized they shot me in order to incapacitate me, because I was punching the clown. I disagree. Chloral hydrate is a lethal chem -- it isn't a baton or a morphine syringe. It has lethal intent. So incapacitation as a motive was right out for me. More importantly I have no reason to expect a random person to poison me over this -- they have no context, they're uninvolved, they didn't even see the clown using their shockhands from earlier. They should have no part in the conflict. They didn't utter a word. Their only possible role here to me was "opportunist," trying to make off with an unnoticed kill during the chaos, which happens often on LRP.
(5) Even if you assume for whatever reason they weren't acting like an antag: Damaging someone further after you kill them is covered by escalation rules.

He mentions it in the more stuff but thats to highlight that the chemist was banned for metagrudging him and "some bad stuff" by which I assume the sexual harassment point? If the sexual harassment stuff was his primary motive it would make sense to be included in his 5 original reasons

[Chocodemon]

It's already been mentioned before but Chloral hydrate is lethal in that it leaves you open and vulnerable. Last time a chemist shot me with it they proceeded to cuff me and shove me into their gas chamber/incinerator within the window opportunity the chloral gave them.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

I'm wondering why sinful didnt put the sexual harassment stuff in his original 5 points if it was the reason for killing the guy and cutting his limbs off.

(1) If a total stranger tries to kill you or severely harm you, with zero prior interactions, they are acting like an antagonist.
(2) Shooting a syringe of chloral at someone wordlessly qualifies as trying to kill or severely harm them, and therefore they are acting like an antagonist.
(3) "Finding no antagonist gear" is completely irrelevant to whether or not their action was acting like an antag. Heretics often have no gear, traitors don't need to buy gear, lings have no gear -- this shouldn't factor into the decision whatsoever.
(4) Vekter claims I should have realized they shot me in order to incapacitate me, because I was punching the clown. I disagree. Chloral hydrate is a lethal chem -- it isn't a baton or a morphine syringe. It has lethal intent. So incapacitation as a motive was right out for me. More importantly I have no reason to expect a random person to poison me over this -- they have no context, they're uninvolved, they didn't even see the clown using their shockhands from earlier. They should have no part in the conflict. They didn't utter a word. Their only possible role here to me was "opportunist," trying to make off with an unnoticed kill during the chaos, which happens often on LRP.
(5) Even if you assume for whatever reason they weren't acting like an antag: Damaging someone further after you kill them is covered by escalation rules.

He mentions it in the more stuff but thats to highlight that the chemist was banned for metagrudging him and "some bad stuff" by which I assume the sexual harassment point? If the sexual harassment stuff was his primary motive it would make sense to be included in his 5 original reasons

Because he's a guy, and guys don't like to mention or bring up sexual harassment because they think it makes them seem weak, or they don't think they should bother because it won't be taken seriously, since people tend to handwave sexual harassment against males.

Imagine if it was a female player being called a submissive waif in a contextually malicious manner instead. Would you and everyone else be acting the same way in this peanut?

[TheRex9001]

I'm wondering why sinful didnt put the sexual harassment stuff in his original 5 points if it was the reason for killing the guy and cutting his limbs off.

(1) If a total stranger tries to kill you or severely harm you, with zero prior interactions, they are acting like an antagonist.
(2) Shooting a syringe of chloral at someone wordlessly qualifies as trying to kill or severely harm them, and therefore they are acting like an antagonist.
(3) "Finding no antagonist gear" is completely irrelevant to whether or not their action was acting like an antag. Heretics often have no gear, traitors don't need to buy gear, lings have no gear -- this shouldn't factor into the decision whatsoever.
(4) Vekter claims I should have realized they shot me in order to incapacitate me, because I was punching the clown. I disagree. Chloral hydrate is a lethal chem -- it isn't a baton or a morphine syringe. It has lethal intent. So incapacitation as a motive was right out for me. More importantly I have no reason to expect a random person to poison me over this -- they have no context, they're uninvolved, they didn't even see the clown using their shockhands from earlier. They should have no part in the conflict. They didn't utter a word. Their only possible role here to me was "opportunist," trying to make off with an unnoticed kill during the chaos, which happens often on LRP.
(5) Even if you assume for whatever reason they weren't acting like an antag: Damaging someone further after you kill them is covered by escalation rules.

He mentions it in the more stuff but thats to highlight that the chemist was banned for metagrudging him and "some bad stuff" by which I assume the sexual harassment point? If the sexual harassment stuff was his primary motive it would make sense to be included in his 5 original reasons

Because he's a guy, and guys don't like to mention or bring up sexual harassment because they think it makes them seem weak, or they don't think they should bother because it won't be taken seriously, since people tend to handwave sexual harassment against males.

Imagine if it was a female player being called a submissive waif in a contextually malicious manner instead. Would you and everyone else be acting the same way in this peanut?

What the fuck am I acting like? I said I found it weird they didnt post it in their original 5 points, I couldnt give less of a shit if it was a woman or a man who got harassed, no one should be getting harassed and if you bring it up to the admins its significantly easier for it to be dealt with.