The death of Manuel sector, the Christmas gift from the Fimoify term to the TGstation community

[TheLoLSwat]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Hello TGstation this is being discussed in the discord and I wanted to get the forums opinions on it because this actually is a pretty good idea imo and a lot of the people shown in discord thought so too




Not only will manuel be destroyed, it will be rebuilt into a great server and able to join its peers in sybil and terry




NTPW soon

Fikou edit: There is now a policy thread about it viewtopic.php?t=35198&view=unread#unread

[RedBaronFlyer]

The longer I think about this the more holes I see in it. You could cut a cheese wheel with it.

[WineAllWine]

Manuel refugees coming to terry to experience high threat... I will protect you (I am a hos main) don't be afraid

Anyone should feel safe with Lukas Beedel on their security team. I sent an unkillable monster at the station and you managed to kill it...

This idea feels like a very milquetoast compromise 'cos neither server's playerbase is gonna like the change and the only people hip thrusting into air at the moment are people that play on LRP that assume the MRP ruleset is gettting nuked with no change to the their favourite ruleset...even though TBM said that the floor for current expected gameplay will be raised.

You can lower threat on Manuel and Campbell without nuking the ruleset.

I also partially agree with RedBaronFlyer. Partially 'cos people don't become admins to ban people as a primary goal (at least they shouldn't). They become admins to have fun with DMing tools, have a level of authority when discussing policy they think will be good and help maintain or improve the quality of the server (which is where banning people comes in).

The Manuel playerbase has a tendency to be incredibly anal when they get so much as bwoinked for anything, and until very recently the support that burnt out admins got when they didn't wanna comb through an essaypost was "The Admin Team doesn't like to read ban appeals."

E: I should just post this entire thing (trimmed for the important bits) on the policy thread.

This is a good and worthy post. For me, having to ban people is a cost - the price I have to pay for getting my fun DM tools.

[TheRex9001]

How does it handle greytiding and powergaming?

Nothing really, but both those issues can be alleviated with a good security team.

Having a good sec team to stop a player from tiding ain't going to work.
They will do it again next round because it was fun. It ain't fun for players like me. With a more LRP ruleset I can't stop them with an ahelp either, I think??

Greytiding or grief fnr is ahelpable, and you have extra departmental rights to kick them out without them being able to say kill you.

[kieth4]

Please grief me please greytide me please the rounds get so boring

[Not-Dorsidarf]

How does it handle greytiding and powergaming?

Nothing really, but both those issues can be alleviated with a good security team.

Having a good sec team to stop a player from tiding ain't going to work.
They will do it again next round because it was fun. It ain't fun for players like me. With a more LRP ruleset I can't stop them with an ahelp either, I think??

Greytiding or grief fnr is ahelpable, and you have extra departmental rights to kick them out without them being able to say kill you.

Didn't the recent escalation policy change remove "You can beat people up and kick them out and they cant fight back"?

[TheRex9001]

How does it handle greytiding and powergaming?

Nothing really, but both those issues can be alleviated with a good security team.

Having a good sec team to stop a player from tiding ain't going to work.
They will do it again next round because it was fun. It ain't fun for players like me. With a more LRP ruleset I can't stop them with an ahelp either, I think??

Greytiding or grief fnr is ahelpable, and you have extra departmental rights to kick them out without them being able to say kill you.

Didn't the recent escalation policy change remove "You can beat people up and kick them out and they cant fight back"?

Its still in the rule 1 precedents section
"You may defend your workplace from trespassers who damage or steal property within that space with significantly greater force than elsewhere. If someone is severely disruptive and returns after ejected, this opens them up to "fun" of the creative workplace death variety."

[Not-Dorsidarf]

How does it handle greytiding and powergaming?

Nothing really, but both those issues can be alleviated with a good security team.

Having a good sec team to stop a player from tiding ain't going to work.
They will do it again next round because it was fun. It ain't fun for players like me. With a more LRP ruleset I can't stop them with an ahelp either, I think??

Greytiding or grief fnr is ahelpable, and you have extra departmental rights to kick them out without them being able to say kill you.

Didn't the recent escalation policy change remove "You can beat people up and kick them out and they cant fight back"?

Its still in the rule 1 precedents section
"You may defend your workplace from trespassers who damage or steal property within that space with significantly greater force than elsewhere. If someone is severely disruptive and returns after ejected, this opens them up to "fun" of the creative workplace death variety."

Ah, that's where it was.

[Capsandi]

Uh oh, already off the first page and still no actual argument against this proposal. Seeing an abnormal amount of empty posting.

[RedBaronFlyer]

Uh oh, already off the first page and still no actual argument against this proposal. Seeing an abnormal amount of empty posting.

viewtopic.php?t=35198

[Capsandi]

You should know by now that the only actionable discussion occurs in the peanut thread

[TheRex9001]

This proposal won't leave anyone super happy is my guess, if the rules become too strict most LRP players won't care for it and I assume the opposite is true for MRP players. Whilst I sorta like the idea of threat locking I feel like campbell should be included as a medium-low eu server so there is a place with good ping if you want to have a more relaxed place. This proposal is interesting and I'd love to see it work out, but I'm not sure how it can.

[oranges]

Holy shit this is what ive been telling you people to do for years(in my head also everyone thinks im central to the continued existence of the tg server project not to be confused with TGS server project or the /tg/station code project in my head. I am able to contain all of this because of my HUGE FUCKING BRAIN).

it's not in your head it's a true fact

[Chadley]

*snicker snack*

You should play a few rounds of Sybil. Murderboning, just from the progtot changes alone really isn't much of a thing anymore, and when it does happen its usually later into the shift.

How does it handle greytiding and powergaming?

Counter-tiding and more advanced powergaming.

[Jonathan Gupta]

*snicker snack*

You should play a few rounds of Sybil. Murderboning, just from the progtot changes alone really isn't much of a thing anymore, and when it does happen its usually later into the shift.

How does it handle greytiding and powergaming?

Counter-tiding and more advanced powergaming.

and how do you handle counter tiding?! and more advanced powergaming?! You bash their skulls in until grey matter comes out.

[mindstormy]

I have always said Manuel shouldn't exist. Slightly above LRP and slightly below MRP is the sweet spot.

[Cheshify]

I have always said Manuel shouldn't exist. Slightly above LRP and slightly below MRP is the sweet spot.

And what does this mean to you, what sticks from MRP? What sticks from LRP?

[Capsandi]

the mergening sounds dumb, lets call it the 'human centipedingening togetherening of the servers-ening'

[mindstormy]

I have always said Manuel shouldn't exist. Slightly above LRP and slightly below MRP is the sweet spot.

And what does this mean to you, what sticks from MRP? What sticks from LRP?

I think sticky summed these thoughts best in his headmin campaign thread a few years ago. viewtopic.php?p=630028#p630028

But basically

• Toss out LRP and MRP names as they have baggage attached to them and use a neutral term.

• Get rid of most of the anti-murderboning rules as they limit creativity

• Shorter more frequent bans for breaking powergaming rules to get the point across to the bottom 5% with the thickest skulls

The big one is the shorter more frequent bans. We suffer powergamers to regularly and if admins actually felt empowered to give out a 5 minute ban, just enough to kick someone out of the round. I think it would send a better message than trying to log dive for an hour to build a case for a proper 1-2week. Admining is work, building a case for a powergaming ban is even more work because more often than not powergamers are rule lawyers and rule laywer appeals are the worst. But as with a lot of admining stuff, you know it when you see it 9 times out of 10.

[Nabski]

Shorter More Frequent Bans
more like
Appeals Section Going Wild

[Cheshify]

I have always said Manuel shouldn't exist. Slightly above LRP and slightly below MRP is the sweet spot.

And what does this mean to you, what sticks from MRP? What sticks from LRP?

Poggers discussion

So you would still ban powergaming on LRP? What would be the cutoff? Would these bans escalate or would we just be banning the same people for powergaming?

I'm not just asking to be a butt I genuinely want to know more about this.

[warbluke]

Appeals Section Going Wild

Sounds like a golden age of peanut potential.

[dendydoom]

mrp/lrp designations are meaningless anyway. you cannot expect to take a slice of an ss13 round then run it down to the lab and run enough tests on it to measure its mrp or lrp-ness. and if you could, this result would be meaningless to the reality of what players are participating in.

the designations are just stand-ins for player expectations. when those expectations are not met, that's when people start to reach for "and they call this mrp/lrp?"

imo it does no good to destroy the good things we have to try and replace one nebulous fantasy with another. atom smashing 2 totally different servers together will not suddenly bring back every dead static from 2016 to once again man the decks.

the servers are just collective manifestations of the individual contributors. as admins we can set the rules, announce the tone that we're expecting, and try to enforce it, but unless we go in and micromanage every single player like we're playing the sims, it's up to players to be the intelligent, beautiful, creative creatures they are and find ways to contribute in order to make rounds fun.

you can try your damnedest to create the perfect environment for this miracle of nature to propagate, but you can't force it through things like rules and rp designations and new dynamic configs. what has to happen is a bunch of good players have to come together and contribute to rounds in a way that makes others want to participate and share in those memorable moments. i see this happening every time i play/admin a round. we already have good players and good servers.

[Critawakets]

man the "LRP is gonna win this" crowd ain't gonna be happy when they find out which rp level the codebase is built against

[Fikou]

what did he mean by this

[Jonathan Gupta]

man the "LRP is gonna win this" crowd ain't gonna be happy when they find out which rp level the codebase is built against

ah if only you knew.

[iwishforducks]

what did he mean by this

[mrmelbert]

I have always said Manuel shouldn't exist. Slightly above LRP and slightly below MRP is the sweet spot.

What in the world is between LRP and MRP

[TheBibleMelts]

I have always said Manuel shouldn't exist. Slightly above LRP and slightly below MRP is the sweet spot.

What in the world is between LRP and MRP

peak ss13

[NecromancerAnne]

I have always said Manuel shouldn't exist. Slightly above LRP and slightly below MRP is the sweet spot.

What in the world is between LRP and MRP

peak ss13

The Promised Land. Spoken of only in myth and legend. Some far flung realm in which the game was better than it is now.

[mrmelbert]

[Jonathan Gupta]

he forgot the sweet spot...

[Turbonerd]

I have always said Manuel shouldn't exist. Slightly above LRP and slightly below MRP is the sweet spot.

What in the world is between LRP and MRP

peak ss13

The Promised Land. Spoken of only in myth and legend. Some far flung realm in which the game was better than it is now.

What most people think is the sweet spot is actually true LRP. MRP is fake and isn't real.

[Misdoubtful]

Why do people always bring up NRP, LRP, MRP, HRP, etc. None of it means anything: its uselessly loaded buzzword garbage until TG takes the time to universally define these things for the community and then adhere to said definitions. Which hasn't happened.

The term MRP was stricken from the rules for a reason (The only place any of it exists are some uh oh'd tiny sections of the wiki and a Discord channel that has not been renamed. It could very realistically be removed from both and it would have zero repercussions to do so.) -- it tilts everything into some undefined arbitrary means of measure. Pointless substance-less trash.

I don't start GMing an RPG for a group and say, "Okay everyone this is going to be a heavy roleplaying campaign.". Then refuse to elaborate and make people figure it out on their own. Stupid. Define RP expectations between the two environments or don't, but the labels are bullshit. Immersion expectations, levels of seriousness, balance with gameplay elements, etc. Anything BUT the funny labels.

Those labels were a mistake from the get go.

[Turbonerd]

Why do people always bring up NRP, LRP, MRP, HRP, etc. None of it means anything: its uselessly loaded buzzword garbage until TG takes the time to universally define these things for the community and then adhere to said definitions. Which hasn't happened.

The term MRP was stricken from the rules for a reason (The only place any of it exists are some uh oh'd tiny sections of the wiki and a Discord channel that has not been renamed. It could very realistically be removed from both and it would have zero repercussions to do so.) -- it tilts everything into some undefined arbitrary means of measure. Pointless substance-less trash.

I don't start GMing an RPG for a group and say, "Okay everyone this is going to be a heavy roleplaying campaign.". Then refuse to elaborate and make people figure it out on their own. Stupid. Define RP expectations between the two environments or don't, but the labels are bullshit. Immersion expectations, levels of seriousness, balance with gameplay elements, etc. Anything BUT the funny labels.

Those labels were a mistake from the get go.

It's actually quite clear and obvious. NRP is no roleplay. There is no requirement to play a character. LRP is light roleplay. You are expected to play a character within reason, and should attempt to base your actions on what your character would perceive. HRP is heavy roleplay. You are expected to play a realistic character and take it very seriously. The key difference between LRP and HRP is the RP mindset. In LRP you play a character for the fun of it, and in HRP you aim to roleplay as realistic as possible in the setting.

MRP is fake and means nothing. LRP and HRP aren't part of a gradient and can't be interpolated, but rather a different mindset and take on RP.

[scamoppi]

every time the nurp lurp murp hurp semantics debate threatens to re-emerge i get war flashbacks of oranges posting about the codebase being mrp but also lrp actually being mrp
i remember being really upset about the whole thing that day
it still haunts me what does it mean

[iwishforducks]

the codebase is actually grp

[iwishforducks]

(gay roleplay)

[Misdoubtful]

Why do people always bring up NRP, LRP, MRP, HRP, etc. None of it means anything: its uselessly loaded buzzword garbage until TG takes the time to universally define these things for the community and then adhere to said definitions. Which hasn't happened.

The term MRP was stricken from the rules for a reason (The only place any of it exists are some uh oh'd tiny sections of the wiki and a Discord channel that has not been renamed. It could very realistically be removed from both and it would have zero repercussions to do so.) -- it tilts everything into some undefined arbitrary means of measure. Pointless substance-less trash.

I don't start GMing an RPG for a group and say, "Okay everyone this is going to be a heavy roleplaying campaign.". Then refuse to elaborate and make people figure it out on their own. Stupid. Define RP expectations between the two environments or don't, but the labels are bullshit. Immersion expectations, levels of seriousness, balance with gameplay elements, etc. Anything BUT the funny labels.

Those labels were a mistake from the get go.

It's actually quite clear and obvious. NRP is no roleplay. There is no requirement to play a character. LRP is light roleplay. You are expected to play a character within reason, and should attempt to base your actions on what your character would perceive. HRP is heavy roleplay. You are expected to play a realistic character and take it very seriously. The key difference between LRP and HRP is the RP mindset. In LRP you play a character for the fun of it, and in HRP you aim to roleplay as realistic as possible in the setting.

MRP is fake and means nothing. LRP and HRP aren't part of a gradient and can't be interpolated, but rather a different mindset and take on RP.

What are you on about?

LRP means play as a character and not yourself. HRP means you have to write out detailed emotive expressions.

Or no wait.

LRP means you don't have to take things super seriously but in HRP you have to have high quality interactions with others.

Nope wait that wasn't it either...

In LRP you can know about mechanics that haven't been experienced in character but in HRP everything is canon whether you like it or not.

I still didn't get it right...

In LRP you don't have to roleplay at all but in HRP you have to stay in character all the time.

Damn I still didn't get it right.

In LRP you can focus on gameplay but in HRP you have to make sure everything is immersive.

Not right either?

In LRP you can know how to do everything but in HRP you have to know all of the games lore in order to be on the server.

Or was it that LRP lets you bring in out of game references and in HRP everything is dialogue driven?

It would have sucked to have actually had to sit down and lay things out based on aspects of roleplay instead of just using those labels where everyone knows and agrees on what they mean. Silly me.

[blackdav123]

mrp stands for manuel roleplay

[Turbonerd]

Why do people always bring up NRP, LRP, MRP, HRP, etc. None of it means anything: its uselessly loaded buzzword garbage until TG takes the time to universally define these things for the community and then adhere to said definitions. Which hasn't happened.

The term MRP was stricken from the rules for a reason (The only place any of it exists are some uh oh'd tiny sections of the wiki and a Discord channel that has not been renamed. It could very realistically be removed from both and it would have zero repercussions to do so.) -- it tilts everything into some undefined arbitrary means of measure. Pointless substance-less trash.

I don't start GMing an RPG for a group and say, "Okay everyone this is going to be a heavy roleplaying campaign.". Then refuse to elaborate and make people figure it out on their own. Stupid. Define RP expectations between the two environments or don't, but the labels are bullshit. Immersion expectations, levels of seriousness, balance with gameplay elements, etc. Anything BUT the funny labels.

Those labels were a mistake from the get go.

It's actually quite clear and obvious. NRP is no roleplay. There is no requirement to play a character. LRP is light roleplay. You are expected to play a character within reason, and should attempt to base your actions on what your character would perceive. HRP is heavy roleplay. You are expected to play a realistic character and take it very seriously. The key difference between LRP and HRP is the RP mindset. In LRP you play a character for the fun of it, and in HRP you aim to roleplay as realistic as possible in the setting.

MRP is fake and means nothing. LRP and HRP aren't part of a gradient and can't be interpolated, but rather a different mindset and take on RP.

What are you on about?

LRP means play as a character and not yourself. HRP means you have to write out detailed emotive expressions.

Or no wait.

LRP means you don't have to take things super seriously but in HRP you have to have high quality interactions with others.

Nope wait that wasn't it either...

In LRP you can know about mechanics that haven't been experienced in character but in HRP everything is canon whether you like it or not.

I still didn't get it right...

In LRP you don't have to roleplay at all but in HRP you have to stay in character all the time.

Damn I still didn't get it right.

In LRP you can focus on gameplay but in HRP you have to make sure everything is immersive.

Not right either?

In LRP you can know how to do everything but in HRP you have to know all of the games lore in order to be on the server.

Or was it that LRP lets you bring in out of game references and in HRP everything is dialogue driven?

It would have sucked to have actually had to sit down and lay things out based on aspects of roleplay instead of just using those labels where everyone knows and agrees on what they mean. Silly me.

What are you on about?

RP labels are the mindset the server is in. The "x allowed?" are server specific rules and aren't really relevant for defining the labels.

[Misdoubtful]

c

b

a

What are you on about?

RP labels are the mindset the server is in. The "x allowed?" are server specific rules and aren't really relevant for defining the labels.

Uhhhh sorry this is too ambiguous and subjective for me and since there is room for interpretation on whatever that mindset is and since it isn't written down anywhere for the server I'm going to have to sit here as we waste our time bickering about the rules instead of having something defined so we can be on the same page and get to playing the game without issues about our expectations.

Best not be expecting different things out of roleplay and have a style of roleplay that is incompatible with my own when we actually get to playing, or we will both be disappointed, punk.

[Dax Dupont]

There's nothing really wrong with Manuel, it has people, most tickets are about bugs and mechanics.
The RP rules make it way more relaxing to play without getting ganked.

I don't really think I'll enjoy the game anymore if we do this.

[Jonathan Gupta]

The RP rules make it way more relaxing to play without getting ganked.

People who dont gank are still gonna play on manuel, people who gank are still gonna gank my ass whenever I come into the halls.

Next time it happens a bomb is going to blow the whole station up mark my words.

[Bawhoppennn]

Laughs in re-unification platform...

[iwishforducks]

is next election cycle seriously just going to be re-unification platforms

[Timonk]

jungle never ganks me top