Codenut: Jacquerel leads the inquisition, smites heretics

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/79788

TLDR is PR is up to remove ascensions from heretics.

Seems like a terrible PR to me since that means Heretics will now be progression antagonists with weak early games, but without the payoff for that weak early game.

Also feels absolutely terrible as a heretic enjoyer.

Hope you guys are ready for Bar RPing heretics, because they won't have anything better to do anymore!

[Bepis]

As well as Traitors
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/79793

Spoiler:

I don't mind either change

[Turbonerd]

There are many other ways you can end the round, or terrorise crew. You don't need to do a scripted event for the 3710542669305725294th time lol.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

As well as Traitors
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/79793

Oh good, now we get the time-gates everyone hates of progression traitor but without the funny final objective at the end which was the compensation for the time gates!

Hope you guys enjoy only ever seeing a resonance cascade again if Vents-Hot-Air or I hop on and decide to do it as engineering traitors. Because that's the only way it's gonna happen now, if this gets merged.

Lowpop traitor is gonna be even more boring. Woohoo!

[trexter555]

im like one of three people that actually likes progression based antags and these prs make me feel very sad

[Turbonerd]

As well as Traitors
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/79793

Oh good, now we get the time-gates everyone hates of progression traitor but without the funny final objective at the end which was the compensation for the time gates!

Hope you guys enjoy only ever seeing a resonance cascade again if Vents-Hot-Air or I hop on and decide to do it as engineering traitors. Because that's the only way it's gonna happen now, if this gets merged.

Lowpop traitor is gonna be even more boring. Woohoo!

Resonance cascade was never supposed to be common. Doesn't matter.

[kinnebian]

FUCK i feel like genuinely the only one who likes playing heretic

[Bepis]

also keep in mind, emphasis mine

don't worry this change is still just one I am making because I personally think it's a good idea and there's no guarantee it will be merged.

[kieth4]

Hugbox vibes man what the flarp

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

also keep in mind, emphasis mine

don't worry this change is still just one I am making because I personally think it's a good idea and there's no guarantee it will be merged.

No guarantee, sure, but still, I'm deeply worried because they mentioned the headmin team and maintainers wanted this.

And then in the very next thread after it gets merged there's going to be someone posting about how "Manuel is boring now, all the traitors just stand around Bar RPing.". Gee, I wonder why, when they want to take away the goals that makes antags do antagonsitic things in the first place!

Some maintainer please explain to me why you think antags will take risks to getting themselves round removed by doing stuff like assault or kidnapping if they don't get anything out of it, especially if it's lowpop, where murderboning is banned. Or if it's MRP, where murderboning in general is banned.

[Redrover1760]

also keep in mind, emphasis mine

don't worry this change is still just one I am making because I personally think it's a good idea and there's no guarantee it will be merged.

No guarantee, sure, but still, I'm deeply worried because they mentioned the headmin team and maintainers wanted this.

And then in the very next thread after it gets merged there's going to be someone posting about how "Manuel is boring now, all the traitors just stand around Bar RPing.". Gee, I wonder why, when they want to take away the goals that makes antags do antagonsitic things in the first place!

Some maintainer please explain to me why you think antags will take risks to getting themselves round removed by doing stuff like assault or kidnapping if they don't get anything out of it, especially if it's lowpop, where murderboning is banned. Or if it's MRP, where murderboning in general is banned.

Cause before final objectives, before progression traitor, people absolutely did take these risks. Cause they were fun, succeed or fail. Not because there is potential that if they checklist enough objectives they get to go super saiyan.

On the topic of heretics though, I agree that after this they're missing something in their kit that ties their main path together and makes it stronger. Pseudo ascensions should definitely be a replacement that isnt round ending but still makes the antag pretty damn scary to close off the late game. I think I have a few good ideas already of what those could be.

Adding more new kinda stronk items to the high rep cost shop could also fill the role of psuedo replacing final objectives. Elite nukie modsuit is already quite good, but I could see stuff like plasmafist being in there, or perhaps even the thing that straight up makes you a dragon.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

Based Fikou saved us.

All hail the funny coding penguin

[Jacquerel]

If the outcome for heretics ends up being "make their early game more fun first, then remove ascending" that will be reasonably ok by me
but if I am the one who remakes heretics (and nobody else is lining up to do it) I won't be designing an antagonist who ascends, and will have significantly less progression

[kinnebian]

fuck i kind of agree

[warbluke]

As a recovering speedtot addict I am very happy about this. It's a very hard to resist the urge to ruin the round for everyone by speedtotting when there's a big shiny objective at the end of it.

[Jonathan Gupta]

sometimes even when you speedtot there is just nothing at the fucking end because hey THERES NO TIME TO GET THE EXTRA AND THE EXTRA OBJECTIVES BUTTON DOESNT DO SHIT

[cSeal]

why are we doing code nuts again? peanuts exist to give a place for players to talk about bans because they can sometimes give good feedback. you can already DO THAT on the git

[Jonathan Gupta]

why are we doing code nuts again? peanuts exist to give a place for players to talk about bans because they can sometimes give good feedback. you can already DO THAT on the git

because we just wanna complain not give feedback

[cSeal]

why are we doing code nuts again? peanuts exist to give a place for players to talk about bans because they can sometimes give good feedback. you can already DO THAT on the git

because we just wanna complain not give feedback

theres this really cool website called red dit i think youll be quite fond of my fgriend....

[Jonathan Gupta]

why are we doing code nuts again? peanuts exist to give a place for players to talk about bans because they can sometimes give good feedback. you can already DO THAT on the git

because we just wanna complain not give feedback

theres this really cool website called red dit i think youll be quite fond of my fgriend....

dont call me your gf I will crush your skull

[TheLoLSwat]

whoa whoa there’s plenty of lolswat to go around you two


W change btw even if it doesn’t impact me at all (I’ve never ascended), I hate getting my heretic rounds ruined because Harold Heretic decides to become a dark knowledge academic weapon

[iwishforducks]

this shit got me feeling like m bison https://youtu.be/P3ALwKeSEYs

progression antags are a stain upon the codebase IMO. think about all of the good and fun ss13 videos and how many of them are about antagonists taking dumb risks for their dumb gimmicks. case in point: https://youtu.be/jC-6EPgoWbI

[Chadley]

this shit got me feeling like m bison https://youtu.be/P3ALwKeSEYs

progression antags are a stain upon the codebase IMO. think about all of the good and fun ss13 videos and how many of them are about antagonists taking dumb risks for their dumb gimmicks. case in point: https://youtu.be/jC-6EPgoWbI

They get uploaded because they're funny. There are plenty of rounds that involve people without gimmicks or ideas, progtrog gives you shit to do. (Not at all biased as a progtrot objective creator)

[Higgin]

this shit got me feeling like m bison https://youtu.be/P3ALwKeSEYs

progression antags are a stain upon the codebase IMO. think about all of the good and fun ss13 videos and how many of them are about antagonists taking dumb risks for their dumb gimmicks. case in point: https://youtu.be/jC-6EPgoWbI

They get uploaded because they're funny. There are plenty of rounds that involve people without gimmicks or ideas, progtrog gives you shit to do. (Not at all biased as a progtrot objective creator)

the progtot goals you've added since are also massively better than they were initially in terms of giving people a reason to 'spread the love' to other targets and crew a natural reason to want to kick your teeth in for them

the positive feedback loops of overall progression antagonist balance aren't quite so good though

[Vekter]

I really don't like the idea of removing Heretic ascension without a major rewrite to their lore/mechanics. They make zero sense if you're not moving towards ascending.

Traitor final objectives are a little more reasonable but I'd hate to lose some of the cool content we get with them over some nebulous concern about round-ending circumstances.

I'd also be very interested to see some stats regarding how often rounds end because of either of these happening and how long the round lasts when it does. If we're close to the 90 minute mark, I really don't see a point in striving to get rid of these.

[Chadley]

And I was about to add new final objectives too.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

Since Jacquerel mentioned in the PR he wants more spice-giving nuisance antagonists, I am once again going to take this opportunity to plug my Jester antagonist concept: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31501

There you go Jacquerel, now you have a concept you can focus on adding to the game, instead of removing stuff we like.

[conrad]

I don't think it's that bigga deal. That's the stick approach though. Hopefully there's a carrot at the end.

[Bmon]

Final objectives/ascend need to be harder to obtain not to be completely removed

[Capsandi]

I don't think these prs fix anything. I play lrp and none of these final objectives ever happened anyways so I don't really mind the prs. I guess its good to unshackle romerol from the final objective so it can be implemented elsewhere.
Acting like that singulo meteor will ever happen outside of final objectives is a laugh. Actually the whole emagging meteor shields thing was always going to be unfun no matter how much heads up the crew has or lacks.
Basically if spam is the primary concern for most of this then just put them into the events system. Give each of them the same chance of happening as slaughter demon midrounds.

[dendydoom]

im sorry

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

im sorry

"Restricted"

So you're talking MRP

Why don't you disable heretic on MRP again instead of gutting heretic for LRP?

[cSeal]

There you go Jacquerel, now you have a concept you can focus on adding to the game, instead of removing stuff we like.

[dendydoom]

im sorry

"Restricted"

So you're talking MRP

Why don't you disable heretic on MRP again instead of gutting heretic for LRP?

i was talking about mrp because i play mrp

im not a headmin i was participating in a discussion with my opinion. idk what heretic is like on lrp. how is it?

[kieth4]

im sorry

"Restricted"

So you're talking MRP

Why don't you disable heretic on MRP again instead of gutting heretic for LRP?

i was talking about mrp because i play mrp

im not a headmin i was participating in a discussion with my opinion. idk what heretic is like on lrp. how is it?

Wdym by restricted antags

[Capsandi]

Can we just get regular traitor back yet? Biddle mechanics are good for team antags because team antags need a common goal only aquired through their biddle lest they become bloodbrothers 2.0(plz reenable on lrp) and go separate ways. The problem was some kid bombing medical each round start which could have been fixed by timelocking 2 items. Hell, I bet traitors wouldn't even pull that shit now that they have half a chance for the bomb to be defused and for their precious antag to be wasted. MRP has murderbone rules, LRP has validhunters. At this point I am convinced that a full revert of prog tots would be entirely beneficial to the game. Heretic can stay how it is and HEADCODERS can block more fucking paths being added to it.

[dendydoom]

im sorry

"Restricted"

So you're talking MRP

Why don't you disable heretic on MRP again instead of gutting heretic for LRP?

i was talking about mrp because i play mrp

im not a headmin i was participating in a discussion with my opinion. idk what heretic is like on lrp. how is it?

Wdym by restricted antags

you should know this kieth!!!!!!!!!

the subheading "Is this antagonist role restricted in how it can deliver death and destruction?" under roleplay rules

[Jacquerel]

Can we just get regular traitor back yet? Biddle mechanics are good for team antags because team antags need a common goal only aquired through their biddle lest they become bloodbrothers 2.0(plz reenable on lrp) and go separate ways. The problem was some kid bombing medical each round start which could have been fixed by timelocking 2 items. Hell, I bet traitors wouldn't even pull that shit now that they have half a chance for the bomb to be defused and for their precious antag to be wasted. MRP has murderbone rules, LRP has validhunters. At this point I am convinced that a full revert of prog tots would be entirely beneficial to the game. Heretic can stay how it is and HEADCODERS can block more fucking paths being added to it.

joining as a traitor midround already removes all progression mechanics (also reasonably soon it might give you the option of buying the contractor kit)

[BonChoi]

this shit got me feeling like m bison https://youtu.be/P3ALwKeSEYs

progression antags are a stain upon the codebase IMO. think about all of the good and fun ss13 videos and how many of them are about antagonists taking dumb risks for their dumb gimmicks. case in point: https://youtu.be/jC-6EPgoWbI

What the fuck I'm in this video and I never even realized it. That's me at 1:25

[saprasam]

heretic is literally built to ascend wtf is jacquerel doing

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

im sorry

"Restricted"

So you're talking MRP

Why don't you disable heretic on MRP again instead of gutting heretic for LRP?

i was talking about mrp because i play mrp

im not a headmin i was participating in a discussion with my opinion. idk what heretic is like on lrp. how is it?

It's fun.

It's my favorite antag the one time I can play it every 2 months due to population requirements.

Creates a lot of panic and gets people to snap out of NPC mode and try to fight you because they're scared of ascension, so it contributes a lot.

[TheBibleMelts]

i don't think final objectives like the ones that heretics have are healthy for the kind of gameplay SS13 does best in. you start the round, you get heretic, and suddenly you know that if you take the time to smell any flowers along the way, or try to experiment, you're RUNNING OUT OF TIME OH FUCK WHAT IF SOMEONE CALLS THE SHUTTLE AND YOU WASTE ALL YOUR SWEATY EFFORT.

i'd prefer antagonists to work as something that can branch out and take advantage of their rules-free status with whatever unique flavor that antagonist can work with in the sandbox. needing to rush to a round-end in opposition to every other player on the server to the detriment of being able to meaningfully run gimmicks/roleplay just sours me on the antagonist as a whole.

additionally, the response that having an antagonist like that on a crewmember level is, as i see it, equally unhealthy. if you catch one, you have no reason to ever believe that they're not a round-ending murderbone with a timer on it, and have no reason to not instantly valid them due to that - you cannot meaningfully disable them in any other way, and any degree of roleplay you attempt with them to give them the benefit of the doubt will come along with a voice yelling in the back of your head 'remember the last time you let one go and he ascended and killed your entire department'?

i think removing the final ascension can promote a little bit more good-faith gameplay that both sides of the fence can engage with and enjoy, at the cost of the rush of 5 minute dopamine you get for sweating your way hard enough through the round and treating everybody else like NPC's to obtain.

[kieth4]

im sorry

"Restricted"

So you're talking MRP

Why don't you disable heretic on MRP again instead of gutting heretic for LRP?

i was talking about mrp because i play mrp

im not a headmin i was participating in a discussion with my opinion. idk what heretic is like on lrp. how is it?

Wdym by restricted antags

you should know this kieth!!!!!!!!!

the subheading "Is this antagonist role restricted in how it can deliver death and destruction?" under roleplay rules

Don't ever throw rp rules my way or it might just be my 13th reason why.........

Don't you think it's cool to have a logical ending to an antagonist? Like, I can't imagine what kinda shit heretic would do w/o it. Just murder forever until they're finally caught? Having a win condition so the station can lose is cool IMO.

Also on lrp ppl are really bad with it unless they have like 8k hrs

[TheBibleMelts]

im sorry

"Restricted"

So you're talking MRP

Why don't you disable heretic on MRP again instead of gutting heretic for LRP?

i was talking about mrp because i play mrp

im not a headmin i was participating in a discussion with my opinion. idk what heretic is like on lrp. how is it?

Wdym by restricted antags

you should know this kieth!!!!!!!!!

the subheading "Is this antagonist role restricted in how it can deliver death and destruction?" under roleplay rules

Don't ever throw rp rules my way or it might just be my 13th reason why.........

Don't you think it's cool to have a logical ending to an antagonist? Like, I can't imagine what kinda shit heretic would do w/o it. Just murder forever until they're finally caught? Having a win condition so the station can lose is cool IMO.

Also on lrp ppl are really bad with it unless they have like 8k hrs

might encourage people who aren't as good at it to do something more interesting than a race to the finish line, don't you think? i don't think antagonist players need to be forced to play a certain way to succeed.

[cSeal]

Don't you think it's cool to have a logical ending to an antagonist? Like, I can't imagine what kinda shit heretic would do w/o it. Just murder forever until they're finally caught? Having a win condition so the station can lose is cool IMO.

Traitors did fine without final objectives before biddle traitors, changelings (sometimes) do fine without them as well

[kieth4]

im sorry

"Restricted"

So you're talking MRP

Why don't you disable heretic on MRP again instead of gutting heretic for LRP?

i was talking about mrp because i play mrp

im not a headmin i was participating in a discussion with my opinion. idk what heretic is like on lrp. how is it?

Wdym by restricted antags

you should know this kieth!!!!!!!!!

the subheading "Is this antagonist role restricted in how it can deliver death and destruction?" under roleplay rules

Don't ever throw rp rules my way or it might just be my 13th reason why.........

Don't you think it's cool to have a logical ending to an antagonist? Like, I can't imagine what kinda shit heretic would do w/o it. Just murder forever until they're finally caught? Having a win condition so the station can lose is cool IMO.

Also on lrp ppl are really bad with it unless they have like 8k hrs

might encourage people who aren't as good at it to do something more interesting than a race to the finish line, don't you think? i don't think antagonist players need to be forced to play a certain way to succeed.

I think that's the ideal right? But in practice, I do not think this will happen. Heretic in any way that you frame is a complicated antagonist already, ascension isn't the default- everything the players who cannot ascend did before they will continue to do and die because even without ascension there is still progression.

The people who can ascend I think will end up being a lot more lethal because now they do not have to target specific people to reach their endgoal so will just murderbone with no win rate which is kinda bad for the story. Because they can no longer really please their dark god ever in the roleplay sense so are just another zzz mindless killer.

Some of my best rp on terry was with heretic where the target to ascend was the guys ic wife and he was like damn wtf do I do the voices in my head aaa (but more actual rp)

I think that the path to ascension can be littered with great roleplay and the station sometimes losing is just how things are sometimes, not the end of the world.

[kieth4]

Don't you think it's cool to have a logical ending to an antagonist? Like, I can't imagine what kinda shit heretic would do w/o it. Just murder forever until they're finally caught? Having a win condition so the station can lose is cool IMO.

Traitors did fine without final objectives before biddle traitors, changelings (sometimes) do fine without them as well

For traitors there was the greentext, although it wasn't a """final objective""" it p much served that goal roleplay/story wise ig

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

i don't think final objectives like the ones that heretics have are healthy for the kind of gameplay SS13 does best in. you start the round, you get heretic, and suddenly you know that if you take the time to smell any flowers along the way, or try to experiment, you're RUNNING OUT OF TIME OH FUCK WHAT IF SOMEONE CALLS THE SHUTTLE AND YOU WASTE ALL YOUR SWEATY EFFORT.

i'd prefer antagonists to work as something that can branch out and take advantage of their rules-free status with whatever unique flavor that antagonist can work with in the sandbox. needing to rush to a round-end in opposition to every other player on the server to the detriment of being able to meaningfully run gimmicks/roleplay just sours me on the antagonist as a whole.

additionally, the response that having an antagonist like that on a crewmember level is, as i see it, equally unhealthy. if you catch one, you have no reason to ever believe that they're not a round-ending murderbone with a timer on it, and have no reason to not instantly valid them due to that - you cannot meaningfully disable them in any other way, and any degree of roleplay you attempt with them to give them the benefit of the doubt will come along with a voice yelling in the back of your head 'remember the last time you let one go and he ascended and killed your entire department'?

i think removing the final ascension can promote a little bit more good-faith gameplay that both sides of the fence can engage with and enjoy, at the cost of the rush of 5 minute dopamine you get for sweating your way hard enough through the round and treating everybody else like NPC's to obtain.

Counter-argument: the fact that you think people consistently choose to pursue final objectives over rp gimmicks proves that players love final objectives, because there is nothing preventing heretic players from doing gimmicks currently except for missing out on final objectives and crewmate responses.

That just means that heretic ascension is awesome and the team did a great job creating something antagonist players want! That's a good thing, not a bad thing!

As for crewmate responses, like not letting heretics go due to fears of ascension, I once again direct you to my Jester antagonist concept linked earlier, which would help to counter that. If you're not interested in that, then I would also direct you to my other recent idea thread where I proposed changing chemical implants to shock implants to make implant and release actually viable as an alternative. Because right now implanting is countered by taking 5 seconds to grab a bottle of multiver from medbay.

[soreyew]

Heretic is only now starting to resemble its source material, if they gut it now its not worth even having at all. Low threat antagonists wont magically work if they're a caster.

[wesoda25]

I keep trying to write a post on this but it all just boils down to me disliking progression =/