Monkey Business by Proxy

[Vekter]

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=35376

More "people doing stupid shit because they don't like the map". Even if they didn't actually do it, I think this falls under the "giving someone a bomb and telling them not to set it off" precedents.

E: Also why the flying fuck does Birdshot start with a gorilla cube box in maints

[Jacquerel]

I did not know that birdshot spawns gorilla cubes in the map and im not convinced that it should
this player has fucked up because now coders know that there's some fun to remove

e: also my take is that if the only people who died were OP and the other participant then playing Gorilla Cube Roulette would be funny and good
getting a bunch of other random people killed as a nonantag is a skill issue

[TypicalRig]

People can consent to a non-antag killing them. Them standing around in a public area (medical lobby) =/= consent. If the say logs are accurate, it only implies that the person playing the game of chance would die from it, not the audience. If he had done this in a far more isolated area where the NPCs would be contained and a more detailed explanation was given to the audience, it would've been bueno and I would've fully believed that it was a gimmick made in good faith.

But gorillas by the medical lobby??? lol definitely intentional for it to go "wrong".

[Vekter]

I did not know that birdshot spawns gorilla cubes in the map and im not convinced that it should
this player has fucked up because now coders know that there's some fun to remove

e: also my take is that if the only people who died were OP and the other participant then playing Gorilla Cube Roulette would be funny and good
getting a bunch of other random people killed as a nonantag is a skill issue

I might spin up StrongDMM tonight and remove it because I feel like hating fun for a bit.

And yeah, if this was in a vacuum and only hurt the people involved, I wouldn't care. The issue here is that they had no way to contain the gorillas, so they inevitably got out and did Gorilla Warfare.

E: God damn I agree with TypicalRig for once, that's how you know you fucked up

[dendydoom]

if we remove secret fun from the map because it's discovered we should put something else in and not tell anyone >:)

[datorangebottle]

good idea dendy, brb putting a pulse rifle under a random space tile on every map

[Vekter]

if we remove secret fun from the map because it's discovered we should put something else in and not tell anyone >:)

I intend to. I'm definitely removing this because apparently it spawns in fucking public tool storage.

Need suggestions. Someone said a bee cube or super pointy tape, I'm thinking those sound good.

[Blacklist897]

[quote=Vekter post_id=713335 time=1701201228

I intend to. I'm definitely removing this because apparently it spawns in fucking public tool storage.

Need suggestions. Someone said a bee cube or super pointy tape, I'm thinking those sound good.
[/quote]

there is already a bee cube in primary tool storage

[kinnebian]

if you rip down three posters, spin twice and slap a mime it unlocks a secret room where you do parkour for a pulse rifle

[Annihilite111]

Put in a spray bottle of super duper lube. The stuff that sticks around

[Vekter]

Anyway, most of their dumbassery in the appeal basically amounts to, "But I didn't actually do it, so I can't be held responsible for the consequences of my actions".

Ians would be perfectly within their right to just tell them they're passing the appeal to headmins, who will almost definitely uphold this because it's very clearly a case of proxy grief.

E:

Put in a spray bottle of super duper lube. The stuff that sticks around

Woah, calm down there, Hitler.

[wesoda25]

Ngl it's a funny idea, a shame it got out of hand (OP should have taken better preventative measures ofc). The admin seems very uncharitable and that seems really lame to me.

[Vekter]

Ngl it's a funny idea, a shame it got out of hand (OP should have taken better preventative measures ofc). The admin seems very uncharitable and that seems really lame to me.

I'm not certain the player in question was intentionally acting malicious, but the fact that they keep bringing up that the map was Birdshot makes me think this was a very thinly veiled attempt to push the round along and get the map changed. That's probably where ians is coming from here.

I don't think it changes much, to be honest; the player's not admitting their fault in the matter and just concentrating on how ians is acting in the appeal, when the play would be to admit fault and apologize, since it's very clear they're in the wrong regardless of motivation.

E: There's other details as well that are leading ians to believe the act was in bad faith, but they're in tickets, so I can't post what they are unless ians or the player post it.

[wesoda25]

I don't disagree with anything you said there and really don't care to argue over any of this, as you mention the player is not without fault and would certainly benefit from owning up to their mistake. At the end of the day I simply dislike the admins conduct and I can't really articulate why beyond what I already said. (and yes the appealants conduct kinda sucks too why on earth are they rules lawyering so hard it aint that complicated)

[GPeckman]

I don't think the person appealing should get banned for as long (if at all), given that they weren't actually the one to activate the monkey cubes. Its like if you're carrying a maxcap, and someone else shoves you and steals it, and blows up medbay with it. At best, you can argue that the person shouldn't have been carrying around a maxcap in public.

[Jacquerel]

I don't think the person appealing should get banned for as long (if at all), given that they weren't actually the one to activate the monkey cubes. Its like if you're carrying a maxcap, and someone else shoves you and steals it, and blows up medbay with it. At best, you can argue that the person shouldn't have been carrying around a maxcap in public.

If you give someone a choice between a maxcap and an assembly with room temperature air in it and say "pick and activate one, only one of them will kill you" and they set off a maxcap as a result, then that is your fault.

[GPeckman]

If you give someone a choice between a maxcap and an assembly with room temperature air in it and say "pick and activate one, only one of them will kill you" and they set off a maxcap as a result, then that is your fault.

Yeah but it never actually got to that point. To use your analogy, someone else butted in and detonated both maxcaps before the 'game' could even begin. Is playing the 'game' still very stupid to begin with? Yes, absolutely. Is luck the only reason why this guy didn't do something actually banworthy? Also yes. But the fact remains that someone else set off the gorilla cubes before he could.

[dendydoom]

it probably would have been a good idea to set up the game in such a way that only people who consented to it would be inconvenienced by having their head squashed like an overripe grapefruit under a hydraulic press. even if the game was played fairly and the contestant chose the gorilla, what would be different? the outcome would be the same: the gorilla would go on a rampage and kill people.

[Redrover1760]

I think he was trying to argue in good faith. Gorillas are scary but if I was in that situation I dont think I would have realized how nuts they are and assumed they'd just get killed soon after it was released. The lack of an apology is "I was acting in good faith and trying to do something cool, and it went wrong and you gave me a 7 day ban like I detonated a bomb and killed 7 people."

Excessive, but admins really love to act by the textbook instead of trying to understand that random shit happens and that it wasn't really intentional murdering of 7 people. A note I'd understand (notes are not punishment, right?) But a ban feels excessive and shitty. One of the big issues I have with the culture of tg is that it seems like non antags messing up whatsoever just isn't tolerated, and despite the fact that there's plenty of antags with special permissions to intentionally grief people and add "engagement" to the round, the second a nonantag does a single amount of harm regardless of circumstances the admins go down hard on them, further diluting the game into a overly safe station with little emergent events occuring as people don't take risks to have fun or create variance and uniqueness to rounds. I'm getting mild flashbacks to the maxcap play, because of the admin team's reaction to the play and the detonator, we will never see another one like it. Even if it was good and interesting. We probably wont even see anything like it, as creativeness was punished with the same punishment as intentional griefing. I'm not even saying it was okay, but that sort of thing makes a fear effect.

Hell, even if it was a note, the fact is that notes feel like punishments. It doesn't really matter if they are, I actually think they probably aren't, but that doesn't matter because they do feel like it and feel like shit.

Even if its complete flop of a gimmick, notes like these completely discourage creative gimmicks or interaction with the game and other people. They also dont account for the individual peoples opinions on the gimmick as well, it is pretty likely that Lizard speaks the truth when some of the people probably were fine with dying and the gimmick. Perhaps they didnt even fight back because they thought it was funny, but there is no way to know.

Edit: also, notes escalate future punishments at an unknown and incredibly dependent on admin rate so if you get a note like this the odds you fuck up another gimmick and get month banned is pretty big. Not fun.

[Kendrickorium]

if we remove secret fun from the map because it's discovered we should put something else in and not tell anyone >:)

I intend to. I'm definitely removing this because apparently it spawns in fucking public tool storage.

Need suggestions. Someone said a bee cube or super pointy tape, I'm thinking those sound good.

FERAL CATS

[Vekter]

if we remove secret fun from the map because it's discovered we should put something else in and not tell anyone >:)

I intend to. I'm definitely removing this because apparently it spawns in fucking public tool storage.

Need suggestions. Someone said a bee cube or super pointy tape, I'm thinking those sound good.

FERAL CATS

I CAN'T CODE THE FUCKING CAT GRENADES BECAUSE CATS HAVEN'T BEEN MADE SIMPLE MOBS YET AND MY SMOOTH WET CAVEMAN BRAIN CAN'T FIGURE OUT HOW TO DO THAT

[Kendrickorium]

Excessive, but admins really love to act by the textbook instead of trying to understand that random shit happens and that it wasn't really intentional murdering of 7 people. A

every new generation of admins for this game are more robotic than the last

[Kendrickorium]

if we remove secret fun from the map because it's discovered we should put something else in and not tell anyone >:)

I intend to. I'm definitely removing this because apparently it spawns in fucking public tool storage.

Need suggestions. Someone said a bee cube or super pointy tape, I'm thinking those sound good.

FERAL CATS

I CAN'T CODE THE FUCKING CAT GRENADES BECAUSE CATS HAVEN'T BEEN MADE SIMPLE MOBS YET AND MY SMOOTH WET CAVEMAN BRAIN CAN'T FIGURE OUT HOW TO DO THAT

just replace a simplemob sprite with a cat one?

Simple Animals
Simple animals are the most common Living mob type. Animals have simple AI behaviour if not controlled by a player; depending on the animal, it can be aggressive or passive (sometimes passive-aggressive in the case of Poly).

Notable Simple Animals:

Slimes
Pets
Space Carps
Giant Spiders
Lavaland Mobs, and Megafauna

im confused

just make the cats attack

[Critawakets]

Need suggestions. Someone said a bee cube or super pointy tape, I'm thinking those sound good.

Adaptive cardboard cutouts. Y'know, the ones normally for traitors? They're not really useful especially by themselves so you have to be clever to really do anything with them.

[DaydreamIQ]

yeah adaptive cardboard cutouts are pretty harmless considering you can do the exact same thing with a spraycan set to white and a stack of cardboard. Just replace it with that

[Constellado]

Oooh is that why I kept seeing gorillas in birdshot? I never really thought much of it till this appeal.

Insane.

To be honest the gorillas were not much of an issue for me when they did show up.

[Timonk]

We need to make birdshot more like birdboat

[MooCow12]

(gorillas arn't actually that dangerous if security is mildly competent because gorillas take 50% more burn damage and thats still true AFTER the laser buffs)


I'm not saying that hes not guilty because people died due to the slightest incompetence but in most scenarios just walk away from them please gorillas arn't fast and they are more than loud enough to make their presence known....

[Vekter]

I don't disagree with anything you said there and really don't care to argue over any of this, as you mention the player is not without fault and would certainly benefit from owning up to their mistake. At the end of the day I simply dislike the admins conduct and I can't really articulate why beyond what I already said. (and yes the appealants conduct kinda sucks too why on earth are they rules lawyering so hard it aint that complicated)

FYI ians released the ticket so I can post the part that made them think this was done in bad faith:

i started "a game of chance" because i'm trying to make the round more enjoyable for everyone on a map no one actually wants to play on, though i didn't activate the cubes, someone activated both of them and i didn't get to see who. that aside, if this item is such a big issue and has apparently no way of being used outside of antag purposes why does it even have a guaranteed spawn in a public tool storage in the first place?
daliistaken ➡ iansdoor
2023-11-28T14:43:40

Also I tried to do the map edit today but strongdmm keeps crashing, I'll do it tomorrow

[Redrover1760]

Fair enough. Guy is a complete clown. Next appeal please.

[Annihilite111]

All roundstart monkey cubes should have a 0.5% chance of turning into a gorilla cube. Imagining Allele McZap absentmindedly spraying down another monkey cube and suddenly staring down a hulking 300 kg steppe ape makes me giggle

[wesoda25]

I feel crazy because I still really dislike how this was handled, the assertion of grief in the ban reason and phrases such as "trying to get someone else to do you own dirty work" really rub me the wrong way. What do others think? The general support for this ban is throwing me off as well as my obvious bias relating to maps and player enjoyment as seen here (which goddam i was indirectly blown out of the water for by timber and I do NOT want that to happen again). Ultimately, however, I think admins should always extend players the benefit of the doubt and favor IC solutions over OOC punishments where possible(like ahhh assuming they were online it would have been so perfect just to aheal everyone and note the player so as to document their... proclivity(?) for map grief - but then they probably werent PLUS theyre a trialmin plus(?) they are possibly ESL?). i am conflicted and will NOT be looking back in this thread for some time

[Archie700]

I feel crazy because I still really dislike how this was handled, the assertion of grief in the ban reason and phrases such as "trying to get someone else to do you own dirty work" really rub me the wrong way. What do others think? The general support for this ban is throwing me off as well as my obvious bias relating to maps and player enjoyment as seen here (which goddam i was indirectly blown out of the water for by timber and I do NOT want that to happen again). Ultimately, however, I think admins should always extend players the benefit of the doubt and favor IC solutions over OOC punishments where possible(like ahhh assuming they were online it would have been so perfect just to aheal everyone and note the player so as to document their... proclivity(?) for map grief - but then they probably werent PLUS theyre a trialmin plus(?) they are possibly ESL?). i am conflicted and will NOT be looking back in this thread for some time

If your idea of "trying to make the round more enjoyable for everyone" as a non-antag is to make a gimmick where people have a chance to get killed (grabbing gorilla cubes roundstart and telling people to choose which cube to spray) and then run away when it goes wrong because they spray all of it (maybe they thought you weren't serious) then people are going to start asking questions.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

Seems pretty obvious to me he was just griefing because it was birdshot. Next.

[CPTANT]

This is one of those things that would be fun if you are actually an antag.

[iwishforducks]

If your idea of "trying to make the round more enjoyable for everyone" as a non-antag is to make a gimmick where people have a chance to get killed (grabbing gorilla cubes roundstart and telling people to choose which cube to spray) and then run away when it goes wrong because they spray all of it (maybe they thought you weren't serious) then people are going to start asking questions.

the phrasing of this is quite funny. there really is truly nothing wrong with gimmicks where people have a chance to be killed. the issue i see here is that they brought the gimmick to medical. people can die. it will make me laugh. but if u do it near medical then they tend to hinder the actual revive process of the people that died in ur gimmick- at least that’s the biggest issue i see here.

[Archie700]

If your idea of "trying to make the round more enjoyable for everyone" as a non-antag is to make a gimmick where people have a chance to get killed (grabbing gorilla cubes roundstart and telling people to choose which cube to spray) and then run away when it goes wrong because they spray all of it (maybe they thought you weren't serious) then people are going to start asking questions.

the phrasing of this is quite funny. there really is truly nothing wrong with gimmicks where people have a chance to be killed. the issue i see here is that they brought the gimmick to medical. people can die. it will make me laugh. but if u do it near medical then they tend to hinder the actual revive process of the people that died in ur gimmick- at least that’s the biggest issue i see here.

Yeah you know what it would actually be funny if he did it somewhere with less traffic and made an effort to alert people of gorillas if someone "lost" but he did it in a high-traffic instead and just ran away not telling anyone.

I think that's the main issue, Dali didn't try to prevent his gimmick from causing collateral damage.

[iwishforducks]

also the fact that we’re taking the guy saying “ on a map no one actually wants to play on” as undeniable truth that he was griefing because of the map or whatever is really dumb. it’s a very matter-of-fact. lots of folks dip out when it’s birdshot and express their anguish in OOC when it is. i don’t know why pointing that out automatically makes you receive a 7 day ban.

snipping more than a couple posts here

anyways, wesoda, ur not crazy. the handling on this was really bad. sometimes shit just happens. a gorilla being released and killing 7 people is honestly kind of funny. you guys are crazy for not thinking that it is. just send down an emergency medical team or just aheal a few folks that got caught in the blast radius.

Spoiler:

I think he was trying to argue in good faith. Gorillas are scary but if I was in that situation I dont think I would have realized how nuts they are and assumed they'd just get killed soon after it was released. The lack of an apology is "I was acting in good faith and trying to do something cool, and it went wrong and you gave me a 7 day ban like I detonated a bomb and killed 7 people."

Excessive, but admins really love to act by the textbook instead of trying to understand that random shit happens and that it wasn't really intentional murdering of 7 people. A note I'd understand (notes are not punishment, right?) But a ban feels excessive and shitty. One of the big issues I have with the culture of tg is that it seems like non antags messing up whatsoever just isn't tolerated, and despite the fact that there's plenty of antags with special permissions to intentionally grief people and add "engagement" to the round, the second a nonantag does a single amount of harm regardless of circumstances the admins go down hard on them, further diluting the game into a overly safe station with little emergent events occuring as people don't take risks to have fun or create variance and uniqueness to rounds. I'm getting mild flashbacks to the maxcap play, because of the admin team's reaction to the play and the detonator, we will never see another one like it. Even if it was good and interesting. We probably wont even see anything like it, as creativeness was punished with the same punishment as intentional griefing. I'm not even saying it was okay, but that sort of thing makes a fear effect.

Hell, even if it was a note, the fact is that notes feel like punishments. It doesn't really matter if they are, I actually think they probably aren't, but that doesn't matter because they do feel like it and feel like shit.

Even if its complete flop of a gimmick, notes like these completely discourage creative gimmicks or interaction with the game and other people. They also dont account for the individual peoples opinions on the gimmick as well, it is pretty likely that Lizard speaks the truth when some of the people probably were fine with dying and the gimmick. Perhaps they didnt even fight back because they thought it was funny, but there is no way to know.

Edit: also, notes escalate future punishments at an unknown and incredibly dependent on admin rate so if you get a note like this the odds you fuck up another gimmick and get month banned is pretty big. Not fun.

this is a good way of putting it. dont back down on this cuz this was very well written. sometimes shit just happens and it’s really fucking funny when it does. like gonna be real i cracked a smile when i read the gorilla had a killcount of 7. that’s a skill issue right there.

im gonna be real: griefing is fun folks. it really is. i love participating in events/gimmicks where the chance of me dying is high. it’s much more fun than dying to Progression Traitor or Progression Traitor But Before Biddle Traitors And Also Magical. feels like over the years we deincentivize risky gimmicks more and more. it’s truly a shame. there’s of course a difference between “heeheehoohoo i blow up a maxcap in medical bay” and some soft-grief gimmick. but i will never forget the time when a chaplain handed a mime a holy hand grenade and the mime accidentally activated it in the medical bay, instantly killing like 6 people and indirectly bumping it up to a baker’s dozen via proxy of it being icebox. i cannot remember why there were like 20 people gathered in medical. regardless, my sides were in orbit that day.

[kinnebian]

no ducks, griefing is not good as a non antag

[iwishforducks]

no ducks, griefing is not good as a non antag

*griefs you*

[kinnebian]

i don’t know why pointing that out automatically makes you receive a 7 day ban.

did you read the appeal
its standard for a day per kill the fact he hated the map was only brought up because its a shit reason to grief as a non antag and it was his only defence in the ticket

[iwishforducks]

i don’t know why pointing that out automatically makes you receive a 7 day ban.

did you read the appeal
its standard for a day per kill the fact he hated the map was only brought up because its a shit reason to grief as a non antag and it was his only defence in the ticket

he literally never brought up that he “hated the map” fool. you cannot be telling me i did not read the appeal and then just Lie. Fool.

[MooCow12]

People always stick towards the most negative context he basically said "i wanna make round fun cuz its birdshot and nobody likes this map" this lowkey points towards wanting help from the secret rule more than it points towards admitting he was griefing cause of a bad map

[kinnebian]

i don’t know why pointing that out automatically makes you receive a 7 day ban.

did you read the appeal
its standard for a day per kill the fact he hated the map was only brought up because its a shit reason to grief as a non antag and it was his only defence in the ticket

he literally never brought up that he “hated the map” fool. you cannot be telling me i did not read the appeal and then just Lie. Fool.

Code: Select all

i started "a game of chance" because i'm trying to make the round more enjoyable for everyone on a map no one actually wants to play on

[dendydoom]

i don't get the feeling they were malicious at all in that they were trying to end the round early or whatever, a single gorilla wouldn't do that, just that their gimmick shouldn't have been in the got dang medbay lobby when they know it's going to cause absolute havoc if the gorilla is activated. non-antags can do goofy shit like this all they want with consenting parties, it becomes an IC issue if there are any repercussions.

[Redrover1760]

this is a good way of putting it. dont back down on this cuz this was very well written. sometimes shit just happens and it’s really fucking funny when it does. like gonna be real i cracked a smile when i read the gorilla had a killcount of 7. that’s a skill issue right there.

I dont exactly abandon my argument, but the guy is a clown. Its a really bad look to argue good faith but instead of trying to contain, warn, or fight the gorilla to immediately run away and tide into science and immediately get into conflict with the scientists there.

You can set plasma fires loose on accident but you better try to contain them if they get set loose. Or at least scream about it on radio. If your gimmick goes wrong, its a lot better of a look if you die fighting it or at least try to coordinate something.

[GPeckman]

To use an analogy, this guy was about to shoot himself in the foot, but then the second guy said "get down mister president" and jumped in front of the bullet. The appealer almost did kill 7 people, but the second guy managed to do it first. I would've just banned the second guy for 7 days and noted the guy appealing to be more careful with his gimmicks in the future.

[Archie700]

To use an analogy, this guy was about to shoot himself in the foot, but then the second guy said "get down mister president" and jumped in front of the bullet. The appealer almost did kill 7 people, but the second guy managed to do it first. I would've just banned the second guy for 7 days and noted the guy appealing to be more careful with his gimmicks in the future.

why would you just note the guy for bringing a dangerous item to medical with the intent to activate it, it's still his fault it was in medical in the first place

[Jacquerel]

play stupid games and you risk winning stupid prizes

[Archie700]

Also, mob gorillas take a lot of punishment (it started at 220 HP), can delimb with a punch (crippling attacks) and can wallstun.