two nutters RR'd from /tg/station community by MSO

[BonChoi]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Forum poster newbie makes shitty thread title

[chocolate_bickie]

This is why i keep an antag token on me at all times so that when my international network of assmad assistant mains whom I look good in comparison to is found out, I can use rule 4 protection to avoid a ban for orchestrating the psychological torment of emptyposters by proxy. It will be like the banhammer will be swung at me and then the token will explode and the shockwave will stop the ban hammer like one of them tank armors.

Reactive Ban Armor

[oranges]

Someone put capsandi in post timeout

[oranges]

holy shit page 5

[Itseasytosee2me]

Forum poster newbie makes shitty thread title

I think its a good title.

[BonChoi]

holy shit page 5

I am a proud father

[Nabski]

holy shit page 5

I am a proud father

I am currently in the hospital and it is questionable between if I am going to be the father of a very premature girl or of nothing.

I am having a time right now. This is not a joke post.

[Timonk]

I am pregnant with oranges' child

[Higgin]

Honestly none of this decides whether the game is going to be job sim or not, changes to Dynamic will set the pace. God I can't wait for the new new new Dynamic that's going to save us all

people in the community help set the paratext that staff and maints respond to (or don't) - the game is somewhere between the players' feedback, the rules/admin, and the design.

player participation is part of that, even if ultimately the most decisive thing to their experience a player can do is just pick up and leave.

also although the Dynamic changes look like an objective improvement in terms of design and usability, they don't change what our antags are, the rules, or the games people want to play.

a very well-calibrated and finely-tuned Dynamic is still going to produce outcomes that, for instance, suck for at least some of the people on manny in any given round. the same would apply if this Dynamic only sent nothinburger wet tissue antags at sibyl

[zergking]

holy shit page 5

I am a proud father

I am currently in the hospital and it is questionable between if I am going to be the father of a very premature girl or of nothing.

I am having a time right now. This is not a joke post.

Shit man, hope your girl pulls through

[Nabski]

holy shit page 5

I am a proud father

I am currently in the hospital and it is questionable between if I am going to be the father of a very premature girl or of nothing.

I am having a time right now. This is not a joke post.

Shit man, hope your girl pulls through

Thank you.

[TheLoLSwat]

holy shit page 5

I am a proud father

I am currently in the hospital and it is questionable between if I am going to be the father of a very premature girl or of nothing.

I am having a time right now. This is not a joke post.

sending love Nabski, hope it all goes well

[Armhulen]

holy shit page 5

I am a proud father

I am currently in the hospital and it is questionable between if I am going to be the father of a very premature girl or of nothing.

I am having a time right now. This is not a joke post.

Gaw damn, wishing it goes well

[wesoda25]

holy shit page 5

I am a proud father

I am currently in the hospital and it is questionable between if I am going to be the father of a very premature girl or of nothing.

I am having a time right now. This is not a joke post.

sending love Nabski, hope it all goes well

^^^

[Armhulen]

Admit it, you didn't see this new development for the double blacklist thread coming

[GPeckman]

So uh, this happened: viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35398

Sinful created an appeal for the permaban that TBM made, not the blacklist ban that MSO made. It gets locked in 7 minutes flat, because apparently the permaban is also part of the blacklist. At least two people posted "lmao owned" during those 7 minutes; both messages have since been deleted. One of them was a headcoder (you get 3 guesses who, and the first 2 don't count) and the other was an admin. Then, Oranges made a peanut thread, which got locked about 10 minutes after it was created for unclear reasons. I think that's a full summary of the recent events. Now that the summary is out of the way...

4) Headmins began reading all the logs (over a hundred thousand messages probably). The issue with this was we were all good friends and shared personal info in this server. I won't go into detail but info that could be considered dox-worthy was in the server. I didn't feel comfortable with anyone, much less admins who we'd badmouthed, flipping through our personal info without even a clear objective. So I reached out to MSO with the concern. He said he'd look into it. This is probably what led to his involvement and (somehow) my blacklist so I regret doing that, but that's neither here nor there.

This part actually looks incredibly concerning. I thought people in this thread were just exaggerating or blowing hot air, talking about admins "digging up drama to ban people." Now I'm not so sure.

the permaban is for the blacklist, it's just more detailed than mso's message, if he doesn't like it he probably shouldn't have done all those things.

Is it not possible to just edit the blacklist ban message?

[Timberpoes]

I added a clarification to my closing of the appeal that I'll CC here.

[Edit] For clarity's sake, being blacklisted is a ban from the tgstation community with no easy path of return. It is a Discord ban, a game ban and a forum ban. As part of the forum ban, you are also banned from appealing globally. That means you are unable to appeal any unassociated bans or notes; all the bans placed as part of the blacklisting; and the blacklist itself.

Any attempt to appeal via creating new forum accounts or by oversights in banning your forum account that still allows you to post appeals is automatically an appeal against the blacklist, and getting the blacklist removed is the minimum barrier to anything else being appealed.

Appeals by blacklisted players can be and are closed at any time and for any reason, including no reason at all other than the player is blacklisted, by any admin. Only in the most rare and exceptional circumstances of utmost mercy do the headmins permit a blacklist appeal to stay open under their Headminly Discretion, but the final decision always rests with MSO.

[Archie700]

So uh, this happened: viewtopic.php?f=34&t=35398

Sinful created an appeal for the permaban that TBM made, not the blacklist ban that MSO made. It gets locked in 7 minutes flat, because apparently the permaban is also part of the blacklist. At least two people posted "lmao owned" during those 7 minutes; both messages have since been deleted. One of them was a headcoder (you get 3 guesses who, and the first 2 don't count) and the other was an admin. Then, Oranges made a peanut thread, which got locked about 10 minutes after it was created for unclear reasons. I think that's a full summary of the recent events. Now that the summary is out of the way...

4) Headmins began reading all the logs (over a hundred thousand messages probably). The issue with this was we were all good friends and shared personal info in this server. I won't go into detail but info that could be considered dox-worthy was in the server. I didn't feel comfortable with anyone, much less admins who we'd badmouthed, flipping through our personal info without even a clear objective. So I reached out to MSO with the concern. He said he'd look into it. This is probably what led to his involvement and (somehow) my blacklist so I regret doing that, but that's neither here nor there.

This part actually looks incredibly concerning. I thought people in this thread were just exaggerating or blowing hot air, talking about admins "digging up drama to ban people." Now I'm not so sure.

the permaban is for the blacklist, it's just more detailed than mso's message, if he doesn't like it he probably shouldn't have done all those things.

Is it not possible to just edit the blacklist ban message?

I calmed down, so I can say that whatever the headmins got from Scriptis (going by sinful's appeal), it (the entire logs) was never shared in full with us.

[Timberpoes]

If MSO wants to change the blacklist reason or whatever, he's free to and I'm sure he'll've seen the appeal attempt.

However, being blacklisted also includes not being able to appeal full stop. You don't get the opportunity to put your side of the story forward. The host has decided you have no space in this community and you are gonezo.

[TheBibleMelts]

there's a lot of misinformation in that thread - if that's the story he's been telling his friends, i am not shocked at the stance they've taken on this whole thing. take note of his ban reason and what his thread contained, they're linked tightly by gossamer.

[Cheshify]

Heads up for anyone. Trusting the misinformation of someone who was removed for consistently shit-stirring and taking deliberate action to strong-arm admins into burning out is a bad idea.

[dendydoom]

i deleted the post because it was a peenut and my broom sweeps all u have been warned

to my knowledge it was only 1 post idk

[Fikou]

hi dendy

[dendydoom]

hi fikou

[Fikou]

*breaks the forum rules*

[Wolfmoy]

[dendydoom]

>:(

[c4g]

as someone in said server, sinful's recollection of events is about as i understood them? if thats "misinformation" i'd love to know what the official story is

[Constellado]

One thing I will say is this:

I bet sinful also does not have the full picture as well. I bet he is overexaggerating because he genuinely believes thats how it happened.

Heck, I am not even sure if he is exaggerating because I don't have the full picture of what happened. Maybe they did comb through everything, maybe they didnt. I assume sinful is basing his ban with the catcord bust at the beginning, which did seem to have full combthroughs of everything.

[GPeckman]

I calmed down, so I can say that whatever the headmins got from Scriptis (going by sinful's appeal), it (the entire logs) was never shared in full with us.

That is somewhat reassuring.

there's a lot of misinformation in that thread - if that's the story he's been telling his friends, i am not shocked at the stance they've taken on this whole thing. take note of his ban reason and what his thread contained, they're linked tightly by gossamer.

Well, like the post above mine (unless I get ninja'd) says, Sinful is not the only one saying this. Other people who were apparently on that server are also saying that much the same thing. While I understand the need for discretion, especially given Sinful's own concerns about that, the lack of transparency is really not helping you guys here. Especially not with admins briefly locking this thread along with every other thread about this topic, and then unlocking this thread, all without comment.

edit: damnit, I DID get ninja'd.

[Timberpoes]

What the admin team sees is the tip of the iceberg. What the players see is the tip of the ivory tower on the top of that iceberg.

Across my two terms as headmin, I have been privy to more private, confidential and privileged information about players and admins as part of reports and internal affairs investigations than any person in this community aught rightfully to have been given any access to. That includes dox-level information, DMs and more sent to us by people who want the tgstation leadership to investigate things.

That's the honest truth about the role itself. Headmins are where people go with dox reports, underage reports and more.

That is one of the burdens/responsibilities of leadership and something all ex-headmins keep in mind when we place our votes for who the next headmins will be.

At all points MSO is overseeing what the headmin team are doing. He has complete and unrestricted access to all headmin channels and all private headmin discussions. So he also gets access to all that information.

You piss off the wrong people or say the wrong thing and suddenly 6 months of DMs or a Discord server chat dump are in a headmin's inbox. And the headmins won't turn a blind eye to it, because they're ultimately responsible for the health of the entire tgstation community both in and out of game.

Players and admins alike may not like it, but that's how it is. My advice is - stop acting like anything you say, do or type online is in any way confidential. And all it takes is one strong campaign in one headmin election for a random player or admin to be put into a position where they're being gifted that information. Don't say anything to anyone from the SS13 community in private that you wouldn't want to be public, because people will share it and use it against you.

[Archie700]

I calmed down, so I can say that whatever the headmins got from Scriptis (going by sinful's appeal), it (the entire logs) was never shared in full with us.

That is somewhat reassuring.

there's a lot of misinformation in that thread - if that's the story he's been telling his friends, i am not shocked at the stance they've taken on this whole thing. take note of his ban reason and what his thread contained, they're linked tightly by gossamer.

Well, like the post above mine (unless I get ninja'd) says, Sinful is not the only one saying this. Other people who were apparently on that server are also saying that much the same thing. While I understand the need for discretion, especially given Sinful's own concerns about that, the lack of transparency is really not helping you guys here. Especially not with admins briefly locking this thread along with every other thread about this topic, and then unlocking this thread, all without comment.

edit: damnit, I DID get ninja'd.

Let me also point out that the other people on that server might either be ignorant or worse, in on it.
The entire issue is that the cord is not publically accessible. It is highly likely that those people who were on the server have a vested interest in saying that the admins were exaggerating.

[iwishforducks]

alright i get it but why was the appeal made unviewable and then we are told "do not trust the misinformation" - like that just isn't a good look. the only person willing to share an ounce of information on the story is being actively called misinformation? im expecting some kind of fuckin explanation in return here. or not. you don't really have to. but it also means i have zero trust and faith in this entire situation.

[GPeckman]

Let me also point out that the other people on that server might either be ignorant or worse, in on it.
The entire issue is that the cord is not publically accessible. It is highly likely that those people who were on the server have a vested interest in saying that the admins were exaggerating.

At this point, it sounds like you're rejecting any takes on this topic that don't come from the admin team itself. People who weren't in the discord obviously don't have any access to any of the evidence involved. And people who were in the discord are apparently untrustworthy, since apparently they must have been complicit or something. Iwishforducks really hit the nail on the head.

It doesn't help that Pepper provably has been permabanned for bullshit reasons in the past.

[Timberpoes]

Honestly? Very little merit is put in earning the trust and faith of the players in this very limited and specific instance. Information is being kept confidential. I prefer it that way. I'd like to know that if there was a huge leak of my secret ERP metacord that saw me deadminned, the headmins would have more tact than to release all the evidence to the tgstation playerbase.

They're already blacklisted by the host, there's nothing you can do to save them.

Either accept the outcome that MSO has chosen to blacklist them on valid grounds having seen enough evidence to satisfy him that it's appropriate, or assume that MSO has blacklisted two people for shits and giggles and act accordingly (at this point, go to another community with a host you trust is the only solution because this stoner is not for turning).

[Timberpoes]

Also it shouldn't come as a surprise that players, infact, don't see 99% of the admin stuff we do. They only see the 1% of appeals and permabans.

If you think this is bad, imagine all the information that's being hidden from you concerning every other permanent ban placed and every other non-permanent ban place and every other note placed that doesn't get appealed!

There must be hundreds of thousands of lines of logs and screenshots and other evidence accompanying bans and notes. The day that the tgstation headmins refused to reveal confidential or private information to you was the most memorable day of your life. For them, it was Tuesday.

[Jacquerel]

i get to see some of it though which is a little weird

[GPeckman]

Honestly? Very little merit is put in earning the trust and faith of the players in this very limited and specific instance. Information is being kept confidential. I prefer it that way. I'd like to know that if there was a huge leak of my secret ERP metacord that saw me deadminned, the headmins would have more tact than to release all the evidence to the tgstation playerbase.

If the admin team was willing to actually accept the lack of trust and deal with it, then that would be understandable. But no, admins want us to take them at their word that the ban was valid, while simultaneously telling us to distrust everyone from the server who says it wasn't valid, because apparently they're complicit or something (are we just supposed to ignore the fact that none of these other players have been blacklisted too? Isn't that what you would do if they were actually complicit?). Memoryholing Sinful's appeal also doesn't make sense even from a confidentiality standpoint. I saw the thread before it got deleted; if any confidential information was possibly leaked there, then it was leaked by Sinful himself, because nobody else posted more than a single sentence.

[iwishforducks]

Honestly? Very little merit is put in earning the trust and faith of the players in this very limited and specific instance. Information is being kept confidential. I prefer it that way. I'd like to know that if there was a huge leak of my secret ERP metacord that saw me deadminned, the headmins would have more tact than to release all the evidence to the tgstation playerbase.

They're already blacklisted by the host, there's nothing you can do to save them.

Either accept the outcome that MSO has chosen to blacklist them on valid grounds having seen enough evidence to satisfy him that it's appropriate, or assume that MSO has blacklisted two people for shits and giggles and act accordingly (at this point, go to another community with a host you trust is the only solution because this stoner is not for turning).

the issue, as i see it, is that the information was put forth by the banned person. i understand that the headmins wouldn't want to release the information of their own conviction, it just seems wild to me that the appeal was taken down.

im gonna be real, the prospect that being in this community alone allows for any and all of my discord messages to be scoured through makes me a little bit uneasy. something like that requires for me to have a lot of trust and faith to subside my uneasiness.

[junkgle]

the issue, as i see it, is that the information was put forth by the banned person. i understand that the headmins wouldn't want to release the information of their own conviction, it just seems wild to me that the appeal was taken down.

im gonna be real, the prospect that being in this community alone allows for any and all of my discord messages to be scoured through makes me a little bit uneasy. something like that requires for me to have a lot of trust and faith to subside my uneasiness.

don't worry, it's perfectly normal to feel uneasy about having internet strangers scour through private conversation

[Cheshify]

Timber's worded it well. We don't share a majority of information, and we'll be sharing even less when it comes to sensitive topics. We've provided MSO and our ban reasons, which is all that's comfortably shared in public circles. Even then, ban reasonings are not for the community, but for future admins.

[c4g]

for context, here's sinful's appeal before it got got


hope its alright to post this, if its not whatever there it goes

[Timberpoes]

Honestly? Very little merit is put in earning the trust and faith of the players in this very limited and specific instance. Information is being kept confidential. I prefer it that way. I'd like to know that if there was a huge leak of my secret ERP metacord that saw me deadminned, the headmins would have more tact than to release all the evidence to the tgstation playerbase.

If the admin team was willing to actually accept the lack of trust and deal with it, then that would be understandable. But no, admins want us to take them at their word that the ban was valid, while simultaneously telling us to distrust everyone from the server who says it wasn't valid, because apparently they're complicit or something (are we just supposed to ignore the fact that none of these other players have been blacklisted too? Isn't that what you would do if they were actually complicit?). Memoryholing Sinful's appeal also doesn't make sense even from a confidentiality standpoint. I saw the thread before it got deleted; if any confidential information was possibly leaked there, then it was leaked by Sinful himself, because nobody else posted more than a single sentence.

The admin team has members that both want to have their cake and also eat it, then eat their cake and complain when they don't have it anymore.

Honestly, the truth is no admin could tell you whether the blacklisting was objectively justified because we don't have any of the details either. Sinful was a fucking wretch to deal with in ahelps and appeals and many of the admin team are glad to see him gone because of it, as their experience from Sinful is he was doing precisely what it was claimed he was doing but nobody could tangibly evidence it. So many of us are subjectively approving of the blacklisting because whatever evidence the headmins claim to have gathered aligns with our own experiences and - yes - our own biases too in many cases; although it's hard to separate the two with a divisive community member.

As for why the appeal was trashed, who knows. My theory is that it's easier for headmins to fight the why delete/hide it angle than it is to fight the disinformation from within the appeal itself, since there's a renewed demand for evidence and transparency and "prove Sinful wrong then". And the headmins clearly don't want to make diddly squat jack shit of that evidence public as evidenced from the admin team themselves not having really anything more than the players have after MSO's input into it in public.

[oranges]

buggin

[Redrover1760]

Also it shouldn't come as a surprise that players, infact, don't see 99% of the admin stuff we do. They only see the 1% of appeals and permabans.

If you think this is bad, imagine all the information that's being hidden from you concerning every other permanent ban placed and every other non-permanent ban place and every other note placed that doesn't get appealed!

There must be hundreds of thousands of lines of logs and screenshots and other evidence accompanying bans and notes. The day that the tgstation headmins refused to reveal confidential or private information to you was the most memorable day of your life. For them, it was Tuesday.

This is why I plan to apply as an admin. I want to set things right by looking at the secret logs and coming to the same conclusion the unanimous admin team perspective on the issue has come to and then go ahead and be called a traitor by the players that supported me.

...but really, what a fucking shitshow.

Im so tired.

[dragomagol]

This is why I plan to apply as an admin. I want to set things right by looking at the secret logs and coming to the same conclusion the unanimous antag team perspective on the issue has come to and then go ahead and be called a traitor by the players that supported me.

What you get will not satisfy you. And likewise there's not much to see. You won't always get definitive proof as an admin or headmin. It's just people trying their best, all the way up.

You can choose to believe me or not, but there is no grand conspiracy here. I trust the headmins have done their due diligence, until I have reason to believe that that trust is misplaced.

[Redrover1760]

This is why I plan to apply as an admin. I want to set things right by looking at the secret logs and coming to the same conclusion the unanimous antag team perspective on the issue has come to and then go ahead and be called a traitor by the players that supported me.

What you get will not satisfy you. And likewise there's not much to see. You won't always get definitive proof as an admin or headmin. It's just people trying their best, all the way up.

You can choose to believe me or not, but there is no grand conspiracy here. I trust the headmins have done their due diligence, until I have reason to believe that that trust is misplaced.

Im sorry you missed the joke, but that was the joke.

Then again I somehow mispelled admin with antag but I had a big exam today so mental exhaustion fu

Edit: For context, I believe you. As I believe mothblocks's assessment. I get Sinful was always a shitter, but he was the sorta good natured shitter, and honestly its disappointing or hard to believe to learn that there is more than just that.

[dendydoom]

admins don't have the logs so it will be very boring for you if you get approved. headmins said no and no one wants to read that shit anyway. then we'll force you into the ticket mines for eternity.

[Indie-ana Jones]

Seems like a hit on dissenting opinions to me, and I don't think much outside of direct evidence which I know won't be given is going to make me believe differently. The specificity in targets seems too deliberate to my liking.

[dragomagol]

I've looked the fool, curses. Statement still stands for those who actually feel that way

[8bot]

i get the "literally 1984" meme is a meme for a reason but holy shit
this is what i call next level

[TWATICUS]

Seems like a hit on dissenting opinions to me, and I don't think much outside of direct evidence which I know won't be given is going to make me believe differently. The specificity in targets seems too deliberate to my liking.