Everything is worse than it ever has been

[Itseasytosee2me]

Or it least it feels that way sometimes, right?
It feels like the new features and balances are all so bad in comparison to the vibe we had back in the day.
It feels like all the sprites are worse, we say they have lost souls.
It feels like policy is more convoluted and unreasonable than it used to.
It feels like the maps are worse.
It feels like the community is divided.
It feels like there is less roleplay.
It feels like there is more rulebreaking.

But yet here we are, each step along the way a seeming improvement from how the game was 1, 3, 5, 10, 20 odd years ago.

Its probably nostalgia right? When you first started playing the game you felt so much new wonder and enjoyment, and you project that wonder and enjoyment to the community, policy, and code of that time.
But why is it so dominating? Should we not be able to recognize genuine improvements?

But then I start to think, do pure improvements even exist?
Runechat comes to mind as a feature that is overwhelmingly supported by players, and why wouldn't you? It makes it easy to see exactly who is talking around you, it lets you keep your eyes on the screen instead of the text in the log, what's not to like?
But there is always an argument to make that something was lost. The focus on the chat window for communication gave the game a very unique feel, like an AOL messenger. It was like the chat was the brain of your character and you could see into all of their deepest perceptions. You might argue that the actual letters themselves detract from the games artstyle, which is an entirely subjective thing.
Now does this mean we should through out runechat? No, not by my opinion, the benefits are staggering to the flow of the game and ease of communication. But does that make these criticism against it invalid? I don't think so either.

Perhaps there is a layer here that is deeper than nostalgia, we all came here because this game attracted us, and it attracted us in the state it was when we came here. And when the game changes, it can feel like "its lost the plot," or "its going away from what space station 13 should be"

But the truth is, we were attracted to this game for different reasons, and we all have different opinions on what it should be. No one is "correct" really about what direction this game should go in, and we are all scrabbling among each other to push our message for what ss13 should be, which is probably based on whatever reason we got attracted to the game in the first place, which is also based on what the server was like when we started playing.

If someone was very conflict adverse user who thinks that no one should ever have to die or get round removed if they don't want to, because their version of ss13 doesn't contain being at risk of being unable to play, there's not much you can do to convince them. It doesn't matter how many times you say "the game is punishing by design," or "the weight of death adds to the fear and paranoia," or "this is a storytelling game and sometimes you are the victim in the story," those will never be convincing arguments to them. And you should also note that liking punishing game design, fear and paranoia, and telling a dramatic story are all also matters of opinion.

It's pure opinion, this isn't an ethical debate, its not an argument over the meaning of statistics, it is only about what we personally value in ss13.

How the hell are we supposed to agree on anything

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Im gonna be real it sucked then too


Ss13 has always been locked in game design pvp, the referees just wear suits now.

[zergking]

Too long didn’t read, anyone play starsector?

[Itseasytosee2me]

Too long didn’t read, anyone play starsector?

Its not actually a doomer thread I swear.

[Timonk]

when you code it

[cSeal]

If someone was very conflict adverse user who thinks that no one should ever have to die or get round removed if they don't want to, because their version of ss13 doesn't contain being at risk of being unable to play, there's not much you can do to convince them. It doesn't matter how many times you say "the game is punishing by design," or "the weight of death adds to the fear and paranoia," or "this is a storytelling game and sometimes you are the victim in the story," those will never be convincing arguments to them. And you should also note that liking punishing game design, fear and paranoia, and telling a dramatic story are all also matters of opinion.

It's pure opinion, this isn't an ethical debate, its not an argument over the meaning of statistics, it is only about what we personally value in ss13.

How the hell are we supposed to agree on anything

This is very, very true and something i think doesnt get talked about a lot. at the end of the day there is no objective ideal of ss13, only what individuals individually value. and so agreements arent really possible, and i dont think we should be striving for them. In my mind, thats the true role of headmins and hosts, to decide and dictate how the game should take shape- if people dont enjoy a change or a server direction, its unfortunate, but there are other servers that exist that could possibly cater to THEIR view of how the game should play
I feel like a lot of people are kind of advocating for a camel by committee, and i frankly am just not interested in that. I hope in the future headmins continue to take very hardline stances on how they think the game should be played, because currently we have this weird middle ground where less people are content than id-
ˢⁿʳʳᵏ
hey hold on what the fuck was that? Im serious did you guys hear that, it sounded li-

SNRRRRRRRRRRRRK
Oh God. Oh FUCK. We have to go back. guys, we have to get out of here,

► Show Spoiler

WE HAVE NOW ENTERED THE ANIMAL REPOSITORY

SNRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRK

[Fikou]

SNRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRK

[dendydoom]

the game is a manifestation of its players' contributions. code has always been and never will be more than just the sticks and stones we pick up and bash together to make fire. that's really what constitutes actual change in this game: not when a sprite is changed or a feature is nerfed, but when someone who made your IC reality that much firmer goes away.

i've reached my sentimental quota for the month with this thread.

[conrad]

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ ... NowItSucks

[dragomagol]

Embrace entropy. Also we need more silly PRs. Little niche interactions that like four people will ever discover.



https://marybatessciencewriter.com/home ... he-dik-dik

[Armhulen]

Or it least it feels that way sometimes, right?
It feels like the new features and balances are all so bad in comparison to the vibe we had back in the day. big disagree, fucking parapens, fucking infinite phazons, fucking fuck FUCK
It feels like all the sprites are worse, we say they have lost souls. another big disagree, we are close to wallening and the game looks better than it has ever looked
It feels like policy is more convoluted and unreasonable than it used to. disagree, old administration was one giant friend group, then the infighting, then the cronyism, having any amount of accountability is surprisingly new on the grand scheme
It feels like the maps are worse. WHAT? TRAMSTATION BRO. I fucking love a lot of the new maps, and I'm so done with boxstation andy metastation andy zzzz. Also older maps that weren't those were asteroid station tier bad (no atmos moment)
It feels like the community is divided. true but I don't think it's killing anything
It feels like there is less roleplay. when the LRP MRP split happened, LRP players found a place to stay after they left spaces like hippie. So yes, but only on some servers, and it's not necessarily bad
It feels like there is more rulebreaking. i'd say about the same but usually it's tamer, we don't get "you can't unfuck an ass" anymore, even flamethrower cumblast is kinda aged now

I think a lot of tgstation players take shit for granted that in actuality is relatively new and sucked without. We're going in a direction, some kind of direction, but I have hope

[warbluke]

Soft lighting is pretty mandatory QoL for me now, and being able to play the game without my computer exploding from lag is also great.
On the other hand Lavaland is the worst thing ever created by human hands and I still miss tazers.
On the other other hand all the xenobio stuff they added is pretty fun and I can't imagine going back to a pre-console setup.
On the other other other hand I don't much care for heretic or space dragon.
But on the other other other other hand at least they're not hivemind or one of the bad versions of clockcult.
Meanwhile on the other other other other other hand tiding rules are pretty tight now, which is lame.
Thinking back however to the other other other other other other hand the Tram is the best thing ever created by human hands.
And lastly on my other other other other other other other hand every sprite made after 2010 is pure anti-soul.

In conclusion, TGstation is a land of contrasts, Thank you.

[Armhulen]

old feature: new genetics job, you connect A to T and C to G and you can rack up 10 powers in 20 minutes and then float around space as a spaceproof miniature hulk with stun hands wallbreaking and xray vision and also the sprite disappears if they stay still. ok good luck cult that has to fuck with red pieces of paper to cast anything

[conrad]

Or it least it feels that way sometimes, right?
It feels like the new features and balances are all so bad in comparison to the vibe we had back in the day. big disagree, fucking parapens, fucking infinite phazons, fucking fuck FUCK
It feels like all the sprites are worse, we say they have lost souls. another big disagree, we are close to wallening and the game looks better than it has ever looked
It feels like policy is more convoluted and unreasonable than it used to. disagree, old administration was one giant friend group, then the infighting, then the cronyism, having any amount of accountability is surprisingly new on the grand scheme
It feels like the maps are worse. WHAT? TRAMSTATION BRO. I fucking love a lot of the new maps, and I'm so done with boxstation andy metastation andy zzzz. Also older maps that weren't those were asteroid station tier bad (no atmos moment)
It feels like the community is divided. true but I don't think it's killing anything
It feels like there is less roleplay. when the LRP MRP split happened, LRP players found a place to stay after they left spaces like hippie. So yes, but only on some servers, and it's not necessarily bad
It feels like there is more rulebreaking. i'd say about the same but usually it's tamer, we don't get "you can't unfuck an ass" anymore, even flamethrower cumblast is kinda aged now

I think a lot of tgstation players take shit for granted that in actuality is relatively new and sucked without. We're going in a direction, some kind of direction, but I have hope

You have no idea how much I missed you bro.

[Armhulen]

Or it least it feels that way sometimes, right?
It feels like the new features and balances are all so bad in comparison to the vibe we had back in the day. big disagree, fucking parapens, fucking infinite phazons, fucking fuck FUCK
It feels like all the sprites are worse, we say they have lost souls. another big disagree, we are close to wallening and the game looks better than it has ever looked
It feels like policy is more convoluted and unreasonable than it used to. disagree, old administration was one giant friend group, then the infighting, then the cronyism, having any amount of accountability is surprisingly new on the grand scheme
It feels like the maps are worse. WHAT? TRAMSTATION BRO. I fucking love a lot of the new maps, and I'm so done with boxstation andy metastation andy zzzz. Also older maps that weren't those were asteroid station tier bad (no atmos moment)
It feels like the community is divided. true but I don't think it's killing anything
It feels like there is less roleplay. when the LRP MRP split happened, LRP players found a place to stay after they left spaces like hippie. So yes, but only on some servers, and it's not necessarily bad
It feels like there is more rulebreaking. i'd say about the same but usually it's tamer, we don't get "you can't unfuck an ass" anymore, even flamethrower cumblast is kinda aged now

I think a lot of tgstation players take shit for granted that in actuality is relatively new and sucked without. We're going in a direction, some kind of direction, but I have hope

You have no idea how much I missed you bro.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nN120kCiVyQ

Off Topic

SNRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRK

► Show Spoiler

blublubbulblubbulbublu

[Constellado]

I've seen this rant every holiday time. Every time there is a school holiday people complain about the rulebreaks and all that.

Not sure if it is true to be honest... I don't see it as I play low pop when they are all asleep. We should make a graph for how many mentions of bad RP quality there is or rule breaking behaviour over a year. Would make for some good insight.

[Itseasytosee2me]

I've seen this rant every holiday time. Every time there is a school holiday people complain about the rulebreaks and all that.

Not sure if it is true to be honest... I don't see it as I play low pop when they are all asleep. We should make a graph for how many mentions of bad RP quality there is or rule breaking behaviour over a year. Would make for some good insight.

POV you didn’t actually read the post.

[Higgin]

I think a lot of tgstation players take shit for granted that in actuality is relatively new and sucked without. We're going in a direction, some kind of direction, but I have hope

Having been there for that shit, 100%. SS13 and tg are better than they've ever been. The server space writ large is better than it's ever been.

The eternal problem here isn"t that the game hasn't gotten better, but I think that we see people trying to do more with it and fit more games inside it.

Some of those games don't play nice with each other or care as much about certain types of development. I love the old wood-handled Paradise-taser-looking-ass egun. I grew up on that shit, but the sprite developments of recent years have made that shit infinitely less legible and stand-out to anyone new to the game.

A big unappreciated thing might be that the sprite ending up on a random part of the tile - or actually going where you click to put it on a table - were not features for the longest fucking time. That's huge.

It doesn't matter as much if you want a graphics-assisted chatroom with personalization and custom sprites and flavor options, but the game is even massively better for that too in the quarters it's developed toward those things.

edit: to actually address the OP, there is no pure improvement, but there are a lot of improvements which broadly serve the game being better for more people even when they're doing different things with it. For managing different games in the same spaces, there are challenging policy and design questions about minimizing the tensions and losses experienced where they conflict.

LRP and MRP being distinct is part of doing that. It's not unhealthy to have players who predominantly want to play PVP and compete and players who want more of a sandbox/"free play" environment. It is unhealthy, imo - or at the very least it is going to be painful and alienating - to decide against one of those "games" in the space where it's played. It's also possible to do this not just by imposing policy on LRP, but by ramming design that advances the LRP game down the throat of MRP with the attending expectations (to clarify: stuff that makes the competitive game, antagonism, or mechanics more primary in the game has diminishing returns if it existing becomes the reason to emphasize it, allow for it, and protect it even when it competes with 'free play.' Heretics and progtots are the recent prime examples of this.)

It's not a comfortable thing to navigate, but I think we're a lot more honest and better about it than we've ever been before. It also makes me hopeful.

[warbluke]

This is not my oldest ss13 screenshot, but it's the oldest one I have saved on this computer that's not just incomprehensible nonsense. I think it dates to mid-2018. My old laptop has ones dating back to early 2017 but it's dead.


It's pretty surprising to me, because In five years, not much has changed

We're still on metastation, door and wall and window sprites are all the same (Wallening notwithstanding), Xenobio continues to be an endless source of humor, barely anyone plays sec on Bagil, and I'm on the same static on the same server.

Of course, there is something they took away from us I will never forgive them for:

[TheFinalPotato]

How the hell are we supposed to agree on anything

We don't, tho that's the point of your post. The people who agree roughly work together, and the ones who disagree strong enough go off somewhere else to try and build their own vision.
This community vetting is sorta hampered by popularity and momentum, but s the vibe.

God I love open source.

PS: Dear cSeal, headmins enact change on a comparatively glacial schedule.
They represent the general will of the community and admin team, and so tend to make sure steps slowly.
Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[AlamoTurtle]

honestly all the complaints I might have is definitely just nostalgia. TG just changes and evolves as it always has. Maybe I'll say "TG isn't the same as it used to be", but since it's still got relatively high player counts and people are enjoying it, my opinion is ultimately just an opinion. Putting opinions aside, I think the server is doing fine if people continue to enjoy it. My nostalgia won't change that fact.

[SuperNovaa41]

The past is always better

this just sounds like standard issued burnout

[Itseasytosee2me]

The past is always better

this just sounds like standard issued burnout

you did not read the post.

[SuperNovaa41]

The past is always better

this just sounds like standard issued burnout

you did not read the post.

it was too long

[Armhulen]

The past is always better

this just sounds like standard issued burnout

you did not read the post.

it was too long

holy mother of based

[MooCow12]

I dislike the new maps because some of them kind of directly target/stop my playstyle.

I used to find tramstation really fun in that I could adapt the way I play and actually dig out my maint bases but nope, someone changed it so you cant power the rooms in maintenance anymore, not even the prexisting ones, and you cant dig out your own rooms and power them anymore either?!??!

Icebox was okay but they literally deleted aux construction along with all of the building materials and tools it had...lol

Birdshot doesn't even have matts in eva storage and barely any maintenance tunnels near most of the station, 90% of maintenance is literally its own corner of the map which isnt a bad thing its unique but also means that if someone is hiding in maintenance 90% of the time they are there in that area by sci, or dorms.

Northstar I tried to like and still do, the problem is since maintenance is harder to access (i literally have to hack into my own maintenance tunnels unlike other maps tf??) and harder to explore and renovate rooms. This wouldn't be a problem at all actually if the shuttle wasn't called 30 minutes in because its northstar, if the avg round duration was actually 90 minutes like the codebase pushed I wouldnt have issues with this map at all.

I still miss the days before experisci was merged, its a really toxic system that forces people to sit at a computer and wait for points so they can nab the techs before anyone else, it doesnt encourage going out and earning points and actively limits what you can do to ensure that you get the tech you want. If it didnt make research points a highly contested system that people will often fight eachother for while also making many jobs helpless in actually earning tech that is relevant to them then I wouldn't have such big issues with it.

But it seems like the purpose of experisci was grossly twisted

Take the xenobioslime scan experiment to get bio tech example, it was taken out of going into xenobio and pressing 3 buttons.... and put into dissection surgeries with the clear purpose of making it easier for the people who want biotech to be unlocked (doctors,botanists,roboticists,borgs) without having to hack through BOLTED airlocks that xenobio often comes with.

Now its locked behind a paywall in a vendor in a room, that requires morgue access or hacking to get into...lol... what a way to tell botanists to eat shit and die they need as much money as they can get to buy their seeds and we fucked them over with this lol.

[warbluke]

None of the science systems I have seen have been good.
Science has never been good.

[conrad]

None of the science systems I have seen have been good.
Science has never been good.

Could it be that rather than not being good it's just not content you like?

[warbluke]

Could it be that rather than not being good it's just not content you like?

Scavenger hunt sci was bad, research paper sci was worse, experi-sci is tedium, and toxins sci was also not great.

It's not crazy to dislike a job that requires you to perform an optimized series of the exact same actions every round, right? Engineers can do as many different SM setups as they like, or turbine, or solars, or anything, but R&D gets stuck with the same experiments every round to get tech.

Do note that when I say science I mean specifically R&D here. Circuits and xenobio and toxins are all really fun and cool and good. And nanites and Telesci were also things that existed.

[Constellado]

Could it be that rather than not being good it's just not content you like?

Scavenger hunt sci was bad, research paper sci was worse, experi-sci is tedium, and toxins sci was also not great.

It's not crazy to dislike a job that requires you to perform an optimized series of the exact same actions every round, right? Engineers can do as many different SM setups as they like, or turbine, or solars, or anything, but R&D gets stuck with the same experiments every round to get tech.

Do note that when I say science I mean specifically R&D here. Circuits and xenobio and toxins are all really fun and cool and good. And nanites and Telesci were also things that existed.

This is why I love engineering and don't do science.

Every engineering round is different. The damage you need to fix is different every time. The cut wires from rats are in different places. The SM setups engineers do changes a lot, and you can see them do gradual improvements on it over the rounds. Same with Atmos setups, I see it different every time an Atmos person does some gas cooking. And my own trit burn setup is unique, just like the player over there's trit burn setup is unique. I love it.

[oranges]

i think a lot of you missed the point of OP's post

[spookuni]

This is why I love engineering and don't do science.

Every engineering round is different. The damage you need to fix is different every time. The cut wires from rats are in different places. The SM setups engineers do changes a lot, and you can see them do gradual improvements on it over the rounds. Same with Atmos setups, I see it different every time an Atmos person does some gas cooking. And my own trit burn setup is unique, just like the player over there's trit burn setup is unique. I love it.

Volkan get the N2O out it's time to set the supermatter on fire on purpose again.

[Fikou]

None of the science systems I have seen have been good.
Science has never been good.

Could it be that rather than not being good it's just not content you like?

no its just not good, none of the systems offer anything engaging or meaningful and only thing weve done is flipflop from "do all rnd within 5 minutes of round starting" to "fiddle with your thumbs and build toilets to not wait an hour"
its hard to create a science system in a round based multiplayer game. everyone wants different things, and all your progress is reset every hour or so. this is why im a much bigger fan of internal progression (like mining upgrading their gear like armor or crusher with stuff from monsters they kill), but that's hard to make for most departments without it becoming weird meta stuff (like how we had a medical skill which made doctors spend all their spare time grinding surgeries on corpses to be better)

[dendydoom]

ngl for a game centered around a scientific research station i only have a handful of hours in sci because for the life of me i've never been able to figure out what the fuck they're supposed to actually be doing.

i just use it for assistant with a headquarters and lathe access. we just build shit and fuck around until we get bored.

[Fikou]

im gonna go on game design subdigg and ask them how to fix rnd
alternative answer: maybe the research station should be a station about researching different fields of science through departments like medicine or engineering instead of having 1 department dedicated to science

[conrad]

Make research granular based on department productivity and nix sci.

You want mining bags? Mine.

You want better tools? Make your sweaty setup that generates immense power.

[Constellado]

This is why I love engineering and don't do science.

Every engineering round is different. The damage you need to fix is different every time. The cut wires from rats are in different places. The SM setups engineers do changes a lot, and you can see them do gradual improvements on it over the rounds. Same with Atmos setups, I see it different every time an Atmos person does some gas cooking. And my own trit burn setup is unique, just like the player over there's trit burn setup is unique. I love it.

Volkan get the N2O out it's time to set the supermatter on fire on purpose again.

It's not me that sets that up

I should actually try setting that one up properly myself. A player I know has mastered it.

[MooCow12]

Having each department be a master of every tech relevant to them seems fair, if some techs fall under multiple departments instead of locking it behind both of them researching that tech have it so both of them can allocate their personal research into it, it doesnt care where the research value comes from as long as it gets enough.

So if for example robotics is moved to engineering department and for some reason SOMEHOW BIO TECH IS STILL A REQUIREMENT FOR BORG UPGRADES AND POSIBRAINS they can complete 40% of the tech requirement if medbay does the other 60% and then its unlocked.... the extreme cases being that one department might have to do 100% if the other is either incompetent or nonfunctional.

[GPeckman]

So if for example robotics is moved to engineering department and for some reason SOMEHOW BIO TECH IS STILL A REQUIREMENT FOR BORG UPGRADES AND POSIBRAINS they can complete 40% of the tech requirement if medbay does the other 60% and then its unlocked.... the extreme cases being that one department might have to do 100% if the other is either incompetent or nonfunctional.

Biotech is not a requirement for posibrains and hasn't been for over a month.

[yttriums]

we used to have more noncombat antags/team based antags/weirdo antags/game modes
now in place of hivemind/clock cult/devil/etc, we have antags like heretic/space dragon which are structured around solo combat from the ground up (as well as all of the old combat focused antags, which have mostly remained)
then we have a contigent of the playerbase who wants to see more player interaction and less brainless combat, but a lot of the gameplay that made those things possible in the past is gone
rather than recreate the gamemodes and antags that encouraged more RP and interaction in the past, coders attempt to induce RP by adding tedious interdepartmental tasks
alternatively people try to create RP through administration and policy, which is not a realistic or sustainable way of making good RP happen.
as a result, nobody can agree whether this is an improv class or a competitive game

tl:dr everything will be miserable until Ratvar returns

[Armhulen]

we used to have more noncombat antags/team based antags/weirdo antags/game modes
now in place of hivemind/clock cult/devil/etc, we have antags like heretic/space dragon which are structured around solo combat from the ground up (as well as all of the old combat focused antags, which have mostly remained)
then we have a contigent of the playerbase who wants to see more player interaction and less brainless combat, but a lot of the gameplay that made those things possible in the past is gone
rather than recreate the gamemodes and antags that encouraged more RP and interaction in the past, coders attempt to induce RP by adding tedious interdepartmental tasks
alternatively people try to create RP through administration and policy, which is not a realistic or sustainable way of making good RP happen.
as a result, nobody can agree whether this is an improv class or a competitive game

tl:dr everything will be miserable until Ratvar returns

Thieves were cool... too cool to exist...

[Armhulen]

I really do miss some of these flavors. Hoarder in particular is goofy ass fun collecting half the station's resources all on ye maintenance dragon hoard

[conrad]

we used to have more noncombat antags/team based antags/weirdo antags/game modes
now in place of hivemind/clock cult/devil/etc, we have antags like heretic/space dragon which are structured around solo combat from the ground up (as well as all of the old combat focused antags, which have mostly remained)
then we have a contigent of the playerbase who wants to see more player interaction and less brainless combat, but a lot of the gameplay that made those things possible in the past is gone
rather than recreate the gamemodes and antags that encouraged more RP and interaction in the past, coders attempt to induce RP by adding tedious interdepartmental tasks
alternatively people try to create RP through administration and policy, which is not a realistic or sustainable way of making good RP happen.
as a result, nobody can agree whether this is an improv class or a competitive game

tl:dr everything will be miserable until Ratvar returns

Thieves were cool... too cool to exist...

I miss devil. It was very dumb and silly, but it was funny.

[datorangebottle]

re: thieves
I liked having permission to gather as much random shit as possible, but disliked not being able to defend myself if someone attacked me for it or stop people who found my good-faith hidden hoard.
ed: also disliked that it required conflict against much more well-armed targets that had no qualms about fighting back, like the take batons objective.

[Longestarmlonglaw]

Could it be that rather than not being good it's just not content you like?

Scavenger hunt sci was bad, research paper sci was worse, experi-sci is tedium, and toxins sci was also not great.

It's not crazy to dislike a job that requires you to perform an optimized series of the exact same actions every round, right? Engineers can do as many different SM setups as they like, or turbine, or solars, or anything, but R&D gets stuck with the same experiments every round to get tech.

Do note that when I say science I mean specifically R&D here. Circuits and xenobio and toxins are all really fun and cool and good. And nanites and Telesci were also things that existed.

What were all the other science reworks like?

[yttriums]

words

but to be clear i'm not shitting on coders here, I understand that there are practical reasons why large, unconventional antags are hard to introduce to the game and maintaining old ones is hard. also i get why coders wanna make cool combat content, it is what it is

remove cult and re-add the greatest conversion antag for RP (monkey)

[Armhulen]

re: thieves
I liked having permission to gather as much random shit as possible, but disliked not being able to defend myself if someone attacked me for it or stop people who found my good-faith hidden hoard.
ed: also disliked that it required conflict against much more well-armed targets that had no qualms about fighting back, like the take batons objective.

Hard issue to solve, right, because without the restriction violence is pretty much used to get all sorts of stuff. Violence is used to defend the stuff. Violence is the great negotiator in this game

[Timonk]

i LOVE violins

[RaveRadbury]

ngl for a game centered around a scientific research station i only have a handful of hours in sci because for the life of me i've never been able to figure out what the fuck they're supposed to actually be doing.

i just use it for assistant with a headquarters and lathe access. we just build shit and fuck around until we get bored.

Xenobio is fun for a minute. There's a ton of content in there that never gets used. Also: slimes.

[vect0r]

ngl for a game centered around a scientific research station i only have a handful of hours in sci because for the life of me i've never been able to figure out what the fuck they're supposed to actually be doing.

i just use it for assistant with a headquarters and lathe access. we just build shit and fuck around until we get bored.

Comeon, you should ask one of us how to do toxins or xenobio or research, the best part of this game is teaching players it.