up and coming cuban pete gets put down a peg

[EmpressMaia]

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=35437

from my experience with talking to admins, access doesn't equal authority, and you are generally only allowed to be in those high risk areas under the proper staffs good graces, i think i remember talking to bmon about this

[LeekiLoku]

1/10 you suck

[CPTANT]

This is once again just proper IC conflict that an admin had to elevate to an OOC issue. The conflict is the result of information incompleteness, a core feature of the game.

[Jacquerel]

1/10 you suck

can we get a different guy this service is way worse than Kendrick

[dendydoom]

i've been playing a lot of assistant rounds recently and actually trying to assist, and i gotta say it's making me greypilled. the amount of times i've been let into a department only to then be wordlessly grabbed by the ankles and whipped into a concrete wall by another member of that department is funny but still shocking.

i have no idea how relevant this is to the appeal but i just wanted to represent my fellow struggling greyshirts for a moment

[technokek]

i've been playing a lot of assistant rounds recently and actually trying to assist, and i gotta say it's making me greypilled. the amount of times i've been let into a department only to then be wordlessly grabbed by the ankles and whipped into a concrete wall by another member of that department is funny but still shocking.

i have no idea how relevant this is to the appeal but i just wanted to represent my fellow struggling greyshirts for a moment

99% of assistants don't assist and just tide. Its an obvious reaction given the current environment on the servers.

[warbluke]

This all resulted from the current HoP office setup. It's confusing and weird.

[Justice12354]

Can someone give me a TLDR on the appellant's POV? I'm too lazy to read all that

[EmpressMaia]

i've been playing a lot of assistant rounds recently and actually trying to assist, and i gotta say it's making me greypilled. the amount of times i've been let into a department only to then be wordlessly grabbed by the ankles and whipped into a concrete wall by another member of that department is funny but still shocking.

i have no idea how relevant this is to the appeal but i just wanted to represent my fellow struggling greyshirts for a moment

i think you can ahelp people that wordlessly attack you for just existing in their space, aslong as you make an effort to show you arent being a grey tider i think you have some protection from assault

[CPTANT]

This all resulted from the current HoP office setup. It's confusing and weird.

Agreed, but it seems maintainers don't want any change out of fear of people getting too much access.

[Itseasytosee2me]

1/10 you suck

can we get a different guy this service is way worse than Kendrick

lmao

[TheRex9001]

Not reading all that

[GPeckman]

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=35437

from my experience with talking to admins, access doesn't equal authority, and you are generally only allowed to be in those high risk areas under the proper staffs good graces, i think i remember talking to bmon about this

I mean, the captain literally told them "go refine me a gravity core." I think the captain counts as "proper staff" in this case.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Can someone give me a TLDR on the appellant's POV? I'm too lazy to read all that

Basically his argument is he had access (legitimate) to be in sci and a mission direct from the captain to be doing what he was doing and the other person talked smack, sicced the ai on him, made direct and real death threats, and refused his reasonable responses. He then beat them into critical, provided medical aid, and let himself be arrested.

The ban reason note is also worded to omit all of this very important information and to make him look like a wordless tiding greyshit.

[vect0r]

Can someone give me a TLDR on the appellant's POV? I'm too lazy to read all that

Basically his argument is he had access (legitimate) to be in sci and a mission direct from the captain to be doing what he was doing and the other person talked smack, sicced the ai on him, made direct and real death threats, and refused his reasonable responses. He then beat them into critical, provided medical aid, and let himself be arrested.

The ban reason note is also worded to omit all of this very important information and to make him look like a wordless tiding greyshit.

Just the clarify, they didn’t give medical aid, but just threw me out.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Can someone give me a TLDR on the appellant's POV? I'm too lazy to read all that

Basically his argument is he had access (legitimate) to be in sci and a mission direct from the captain to be doing what he was doing and the other person talked smack, sicced the ai on him, made direct and real death threats, and refused his reasonable responses. He then beat them into critical, provided medical aid, and let himself be arrested.

The ban reason note is also worded to omit all of this very important information and to make him look like a wordless tiding greyshit.

Just the clarify, they didn’t give medical aid, but just threw me out.

This is just me blending down their post into 2 sentences, they made the claim that they epi'd so I repeated it.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

Can someone give me a TLDR on the appellant's POV? I'm too lazy to read all that

Basically his argument is he had access (legitimate) to be in sci and a mission direct from the captain to be doing what he was doing and the other person talked smack, sicced the ai on him, made direct and real death threats, and refused his reasonable responses. He then beat them into critical, provided medical aid, and let himself be arrested.

The ban reason note is also worded to omit all of this very important information and to make him look like a wordless tiding greyshit.

Just the clarify, they didn’t give medical aid, but just threw me out.

[2023-12-09 08:06:46.899] ATTACK: Typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards) (mob_3471) attempted to inject Vect0r/(Cecilia Vujic) with the epinephrine medipen (Epinephrine, Formaldehyde and Sanguirite) (NEWHP: -67) (Research and Development (139,94,2))
[2023-12-09 08:06:46.901] ATTACK: Typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards) (mob_3471) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/medicine/epinephrine (10u, 1 purity), /datum/reagent/toxin/formaldehyde (3u, 0.75 purity) and /datum/reagent/medicine/coagulant (2u, 1 purity)) from the epinephrine medipen to Vect0r/(Cecilia Vujic) (NEWHP: -67) (Research and Development (139,94,2))
[2023-12-09 08:06:46.902] ATTACK: Typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards) (mob_3471) injected Vect0r/(Cecilia Vujic) with the epinephrine medipen (Epinephrine, Formaldehyde and Sanguirite) (NEWHP: -67) (Research and Development (139,94,2))

[Justice12354]

Can someone give me a TLDR on the appellant's POV? I'm too lazy to read all that

Basically his argument is he had access (legitimate) to be in sci and a mission direct from the captain to be doing what he was doing and the other person talked smack, sicced the ai on him, made direct and real death threats, and refused his reasonable responses. He then beat them into critical, provided medical aid, and let himself be arrested.

The ban reason note is also worded to omit all of this very important information and to make him look like a wordless tiding greyshit.

Cheers. Yeah... I read the ticket and I'm a bit split. (Edit: I'm not split anymore lmao; I think it was a mess-up)

There is a really important point when it comes to writing notes which is: "Is this shit too long?". Sometimes I find myself scared of typing something too long bc, let's be honest, if I'm looking at someone's history, I don't wanna read George Orwell's 1984; I just wanna get an idea of any rule-breaking recurrent patterns. So I can see why Isratosh omitted some of the information regarding the incident based on his perception of what happened.

Given the Scientist's threat, there were only two outcomes if we assume beating the Scientist is overescalation:
- The Assistant left;
- The Assistant did not leave and, following the Scientist's threat, they were attacked.
Knowing that the Assistant had the right to be there as per the Captain's authorization, them being attacked was granted since they would not leave based on the Scientist's demand, and so assuming a follow-up attack from the Scientist is perfectly reasonable; therefore also being reasonable to attack them beforehand. Handing out threats is a dangerous game and you should be careful with them if you don't wanna get beaten.

I feel like Isra may have focused too much on the Scientist's POV, leading to an extremely technical approach, and forgotten to see how reasonable the actions were from the Assistant's POV. We don't apply bans because something looks rule-breaking; we apply bans to improve the community's health. My point is, unless I missed something, I think Isratosh accidentally looked at it the wrong way, which is a thing that totally happens and that's what we have ban appeals for!

(Also, I hope Typhnox took the Scientist to Medical, bc this is escalation policy imo)

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

(Also, I hope Typhnox took the Scientist to Medical, bc this is escalation policy imo)

Would have, but the other scientist mentioned in the room started freaking out and screaming for security, and security very quickly showed up to the scene for once. Security recovered her and I willingly went with security, who did not bother cuffing me or anything since I was cooperative. In the end security did not bother pressing the charge for assaulting Cecilia, because of my statements regarding self defense, but because I was in the brig anyway, they had me serve a 2 minute sentence for the breaking and entering I did at the start of the shift.

Vect0r mentioned to me after the fact that they had a whole 'nother RP scenario being built up to speak to a Lawyer and get them to press charges on me in a trial for the assault, but that never occurred because I spent the rest of the shift hiding under a plant in service while talking to Isratoh in the ticket, until suiciding when they informed me they would be issuing a ban.

[Justice12354]

(Also, I hope Typhnox took the Scientist to Medical, bc this is escalation policy imo)

Would have, but the other scientist mentioned in the room started freaking out and screaming for security, and security very quickly showed up to the scene for once. Security recovered her and I willingly went with security, who did not bother cuffing me or anything since I was cooperative. In the end security did not bother pressing the charge for assaulting Cecilia, because of my statements regarding self defense, but because I was in the brig anyway, they had me serve a 2 minute sentence for the breaking and entering I did at the start of the shift.

Vect0r mentioned to me after the fact that they had a whole 'nother RP scenario being built up to speak to a Lawyer and get them to press charges on me in a trial for the assault, but that never occurred because I spent the rest of the shift hiding under a plant in service while talking to Isratoh in the ticket, until suiciding when they informed me they would be issuing a ban.

Damn, that's a shame. Better luck next time

[vect0r]

Can someone give me a TLDR on the appellant's POV? I'm too lazy to read all that

Basically his argument is he had access (legitimate) to be in sci and a mission direct from the captain to be doing what he was doing and the other person talked smack, sicced the ai on him, made direct and real death threats, and refused his reasonable responses. He then beat them into critical, provided medical aid, and let himself be arrested.

The ban reason note is also worded to omit all of this very important information and to make him look like a wordless tiding greyshit.

Just the clarify, they didn’t give medical aid, but just threw me out.

[2023-12-09 08:06:46.899] ATTACK: Typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards) (mob_3471) attempted to inject Vect0r/(Cecilia Vujic) with the epinephrine medipen (Epinephrine, Formaldehyde and Sanguirite) (NEWHP: -67) (Research and Development (139,94,2))
[2023-12-09 08:06:46.901] ATTACK: Typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards) (mob_3471) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/medicine/epinephrine (10u, 1 purity), /datum/reagent/toxin/formaldehyde (3u, 0.75 purity) and /datum/reagent/medicine/coagulant (2u, 1 purity)) from the epinephrine medipen to Vect0r/(Cecilia Vujic) (NEWHP: -67) (Research and Development (139,94,2))
[2023-12-09 08:06:46.902] ATTACK: Typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards) (mob_3471) injected Vect0r/(Cecilia Vujic) with the epinephrine medipen (Epinephrine, Formaldehyde and Sanguirite) (NEWHP: -67) (Research and Development (139,94,2))

Ohh ahit didn’t notice that nvm

[TypicalRig]

Can someone give me a TLDR on the appellant's POV? I'm too lazy to read all that

Basically his argument is he had access (legitimate) to be in sci and a mission direct from the captain to be doing what he was doing and the other person talked smack, sicced the ai on him, made direct and real death threats, and refused his reasonable responses. He then beat them into critical, provided medical aid, and let himself be arrested.

The ban reason note is also worded to omit all of this very important information and to make him look like a wordless tiding greyshit.

Small correction, but his requests weren't denied. Cecilia said he'd get to them and he made the assumption that they were lying and planned to just ignore it because that's what happened in other rounds.

If Cecilia didn't directly reply to the captain's radio chatter, it's pretty possible, and likely, she didn't notice it. The lizard whines about how Cecilia didn't ask the captain to confirm her claims, but it's not really on her to confirm the innocence of some random with an assistant titled ID in her department. Burden of proof is on the person making the claim, and what not. Why didn't he just back off and call the cap? This seems like a classic "me want insuls" assistant moment where they feel entitled to a place they don't have (full) access to, and reach for a fight the second they have the chance.

the severely disruptive thing is a weird area, but considering it only takes one button click to waste the research points, she's already fucked if she waits around for a person to do what they want.

tldr dumb lizard could've avoided a good chunk of this by getting his ID properly changed and/or asking the cap himself to show up instead of resorting to lethals in a scenario where things obviously looked weird on his part

[kinnebian]

oh my god!! a situtation where both parties acted on incomplete information? in MY roleplaying game? no!

[datorangebottle]

1/10 you suck

can we get a different guy this service is way worse than Kendrick

3/10, cuban pete is a tired and forced reference, and they didn't include 'nut' in the title in some way.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

Can someone give me a TLDR on the appellant's POV? I'm too lazy to read all that

Basically his argument is he had access (legitimate) to be in sci and a mission direct from the captain to be doing what he was doing and the other person talked smack, sicced the ai on him, made direct and real death threats, and refused his reasonable responses. He then beat them into critical, provided medical aid, and let himself be arrested.

The ban reason note is also worded to omit all of this very important information and to make him look like a wordless tiding greyshit.

Small correction, but his requests weren't denied. Cecilia said he'd get to them and he made the assumption that they were lying and planned to just ignore it because that's what happened in other rounds.

If Cecilia didn't directly reply to the captain's radio chatter, it's pretty possible, and likely, she didn't notice it. The lizard whines about how Cecilia didn't ask the captain to confirm her claims, but it's not really on her to confirm the innocence of some random with an assistant titled ID in her department. Burden of proof is on the person making the claim, and what not. Why didn't he just back off and call the cap? This seems like a classic "me want insuls" assistant moment where they feel entitled to a place they don't have (full) access to, and reach for a fight the second they have the chance.

the severely disruptive thing is a weird area, but considering it only takes one button click to waste the research points, she's already fucked if she waits around for a person to do what they want.

tldr dumb lizard could've avoided a good chunk of this by getting his ID properly changed and/or asking the cap himself to show up instead of resorting to lethals in a scenario where things obviously looked weird on his part

?????

Okay first off, I said they would forget about the tech that I wanted, not they would ignore my request. Why did you misinterpret my statement so maliciously?

Second off, the Captain already went through the effort of informing them over science comms about the situation. Do you think the Captain is just some tool that is at the beck and call of random assistants to be called wherever they request when they request it? That's completely insane that you think me summoning the Captain out of thin air is more reasonable than them asking in common if the cap gave me access.

Third off, I didn't resort to lethals, as pointed out by the logs in the appeal, Cecilia started the conflict by siccing the AI on me, and made a credible lethal threat against ME before I did anything.

[Dax Dupont]

They missed the IC issue button and clicked ban accidently.

Imitates is often a bit heated but if someone says yeah I'm getting the AI to kill you over legitimate access I'd definitely beat their ass too.

[Jacquerel]

1/10 you suck

can we get a different guy this service is way worse than Kendrick

3/10, cuban pete is a tired and forced reference, and they didn't include 'nut' in the title in some way.

This is a good application I think you might have what it takes

[TypicalRig]

?????
Okay first off, I said they would forget about the tech that I wanted, not they would ignore my request. Why did you misinterpret my statement so maliciously?

Toe-may-toe, tah-mah-toe. The point is you weirdly basing your interactions with Cecilia over some unideal past interactions with scientists from other rounds. Somehow the fear of them forgetting crossed your mind, but not the idea of using your words (something you complained about them not doing) to remind them in the event that happens.

Second off, the Captain already went through the effort of informing them over science comms about the situation. Do you think the Captain is just some tool that is at the beck and call of random assistants to be called wherever they request when they request it? That's completely insane that you think me summoning the Captain out of thin air is more reasonable than them asking in common if the cap gave me access.

I said "call the cap." Call him via comms like you were whining about how Cecilia didn't... It is the MRP server. You should not be struggling to communicate at this basic of a level. And, yeah, I do expect the Captain, whose job is to oversee the crew, to eventually check in on any dramatic vaguely linking back to him, at least on MRP. But if that low of a bar is too high for you to imagine, I think Terry/Sybil would be great for you.

Third off, I didn't resort to lethals, as pointed out by the logs in the appeal, Cecilia started the conflict by siccing the AI on me, and made a credible lethal threat against ME before I did anything.

I'm not going to entertain a "but she started it!!!" argument with you, but she ordered the AI to "remove you by force." Not to kill you, not to beat you up, but the green light to evict what appears to be a tider with no visible proof to their story, after multiple pleas/warnings to leave. It was only after you verbally pushed them in that direction, did they mention harming you. It's like going "What are you going to do, stab me?" and wondering why you have a knife in your gut.

credible threat my ass all they had to do was leave the department and bring up the situation with the cap or sec. this was, every step of the way, avoidable. this stinks of a player that was just trying to tick boxes off the rule list until they could justify a kill.

[dirk_mcblade]

IC issue.

[conrad]

PUT NUT IN THE GODDAMN TITLE

[Bmon]

It is important to note this happened on Manuel, to me it feels to me like an RP rule 2 escalation ban

I think this all boils down to whether Typhnox was acting with or without legitimate IC reason by hacking into toxins to make anomaly cores as an assistant, and if not was Vect0r reasonable in their use of force by siccing the AI on them for not leaving.

[Justice12354]

OH SHIT THIS HAPPENED ON MANUEL. I TAKE MY PEANUTS BACK. ALL PEANUTS GO BACK INTO THE BRAIN SACK. I'M NOT PEANUTTING OVER MANUEL

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Imitates is 100% in the wrong here, and the ban should be significantly longer.

Sure. You had legitimate access given by the Captain. But you're still an Assistant.

You got buttmad that a Scientist wanted to do their job and prioritized something beneficial for the entire station over your (Assistant) personal project, and beat them to death over it.

This is classic Greytide Entitlement and we should crack the fuck down on it with the full might of Zeus.

Edit:

They missed the IC issue button and clicked ban accidently.

Imitates is often a bit heated but if someone says yeah I'm getting the AI to kill you over legitimate access I'd definitely beat their ass too.

They didn't say they'd get the AI to kill them over it, they even specifically said "if I wanted the AI to kill you, I'd tell it to kill you" but conceded that they would be willing to if they had to.

[TheLoLSwat]

Is this really entitlement? The captain gave explicit permission and even a task

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Is this really entitlement? The captain gave explicit permission and even a task

Sure, and it's not an urgent, pressing task. When you're an Assistant and you are Assisting, you are still a lower priority than the actual people in that department, unless you get your job properly changed. And even then, if it's a more limited job (like Robotics) I'd still say you're a lower priority, but that's neither here nor there.

T4 Parts are valuable for the entire station. They make everything work better, and are generally considered an important part of the Science Rote.

Anomaly Armour is an amusement, and an Assistant delaying important upgrades for the entire station and stealing research points from the actual Sci Players for a personal project is absolutely entitlement.

If he was so afraid that Sci would forget his request, why not tell the Captain "Hey, I got your cores, can you research Anomaly Armour and I'll slap these together?"

Captains CAN remotely do research via PDA after all!

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

Imitates is 100% in the wrong here, and the ban should be significantly longer.

Sure. You had legitimate access given by the Captain. But you're still an Assistant.

You got buttmad that a Scientist wanted to do their job and prioritized something beneficial for the entire station over your (Assistant) personal project, and beat them to death over it.

This is classic Greytide Entitlement and we should crack the fuck down on it with the full might of Zeus.

Edit:

They missed the IC issue button and clicked ban accidently.

Imitates is often a bit heated but if someone says yeah I'm getting the AI to kill you over legitimate access I'd definitely beat their ass too.

They didn't say they'd get the AI to kill them over it, they even specifically said "if I wanted the AI to kill you, I'd tell it to kill you" but conceded that they would be willing to if they had to.

Luckily for me, your personal opinions about job priorities are not actually policy. The relevant rule here is rule 1, precedent 6.

Also, I did not beat them to death, I beat them to crit, and also provided medical aid once the threat was neutralized. This is backed up by logs posted in this thread.

Also, as mentioned multiple times and also actually backed up by the logs, Cecilia opened the hostilities, not me.

[Timberpoes]

Seems incredibly IC issue to me.

They were given access by the Cap. The Cap stated someone was getting access over comms. The Cap gave them a task to do. They didn't mesh well with an existing department member. Words were used (on the Roleplay server of all things) before eventually Might Makes Right. Then more IC stuff happened including an arrest and just... It all feels exceptionally IC.

[Bawhoppennn]

I don't even see how someone could come up with the idea of banning this, let alone actually banning for it

[CMDR_Gungnir]

[Snip]

Luckily for me, your personal opinions about job priorities are not actually policy. The relevant rule here is rule 1, precedent 6.
[/quote]

You may defend your workplace from trespassers who damage or steal property within that space with significantly greater force than elsewhere.

I would argue that Research Points are property, in the same way as someone stealing a borg shell from Robotics. Sure, you'll get those Research Points back, and you can just print another borg shell. Even with the access you were given, that was to do Ordnance, right? Not to research stuff. So we could make the argument there that Cecilia would be within her rights to have the AI deal with you. Which they didn't.

Also, I did not beat them to death, I beat them to crit, and also provided medical aid once the threat was neutralized. This is backed up by logs posted in this thread.

Beating someone with lethals because they asked you politely to leave when you made it clear you were going to hinder them doing their proper job, asked the AI for help when you refused that, and then said they'd resort to force if you STILL wouldn't leave, is not reasonable at all. That is the peak of Greytide Entitlement. If you weren't properly job-changed in, you're not a Scientist, you're just helping with Ordnance.

But it also undermines your entire point. Cecilia's """threat""" only existed in the sense that if you completely and utterly refused to leave, even after their non-lethal AI help, they would have it kill you. Y'know, when they have absolutely no other options left. That's not a credible threat, or risk of danger. You could leave. You could get help. You could talk, you CLEARLY had time to do it beforehand. And if you were truly afraid that they'd have the AI kill you, then why would you immediately give them medical aid after? Are you not afraid that they'd tell the AI that you're human harm and have you killed? It's not anywhere near an intelligent decision to make if you were afraid they'd have you killed. You just felt entitled and took the immediate first option you could to punish them for not treating you with reverence and abandoning their own plans (which are for The Entire Station, rather than your own Personal Project).

Also, as mentioned multiple times and also actually backed up by the logs, Cecilia opened the hostilities, not me.

Per your own logs

[2023-12-09 08:06:07.292] GAME-SAY: Typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards) (mob_3471) "Are you trying to get the AI to kill me" (Research and Development (139,95,2))
[2023-12-09 08:06:17.158] GAME-SAY: Vect0r/(Cecilia Vujic) (mob_3438) "if I was, I would tell it to kill you" (Research and Development (139,96,2))
[2023-12-09 08:06:20.371] GAME-SAY: Vect0r/(Cecilia Vujic) (mob_3438) "and if you don't leave" (Research and Development (139,96,2))
[2023-12-09 08:06:22.108] GAME-SAY: Vect0r/(Cecilia Vujic) (mob_3438) "yes I will" (Research and Development (139,96,2))

You can clearly see that they weren't trying to get it to kill you. You can clearly see that it's a last resort. You could have tried to talk. You could have acquiesced to the threat. You chose to grab a toolbox and start bashing. You started the Hostilities.

You're correct my opinions don't matter in the grand scheme of things, but I'm tired of seeing The Greys act like they're god's gift to the server. That's fine and well on LRP, but I'd like to hope that MRP's rules would actually be enforced.

Seems incredibly IC issue to me.

They were given access by the Cap. The Cap stated someone was getting access over comms. The Cap gave them a task to do. They didn't mesh well with an existing department member. Words were used (on the Roleplay server of all things) before eventually Might Makes Right. Then more IC stuff happened including an arrest and just... It all feels exceptionally IC.

Does this not fall into the "shouldn't need to be robust in order to even do your job"? They tried to get someone to not waste the points their job needs to function, and got fucked for it by some entitled greyshirt. Isn't this exactly the kind of greytiding that's a problem?

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

[Snip]
Luckily for me, your personal opinions about job priorities are not actually policy. The relevant rule here is rule 1, precedent 6.

You may defend your workplace from trespassers who damage or steal property within that space with significantly greater force than elsewhere.

I would argue that Research Points are property, in the same way as someone stealing a borg shell from Robotics. Sure, you'll get those Research Points back, and you can just print another borg shell. Even with the access you were given, that was to do Ordnance, right? Not to research stuff. So we could make the argument there that Cecilia would be within her rights to have the AI deal with you. Which they didn't.

Except, r1p6 has multiple clauses to it. First off, I fundamentally disagree that I was trespassing in the department at all. But even if you think that the Captain clearly allowing me into science and giving me ordnance access and informing the science team they would be doing so still makes me a trespasser, somehow, AND if we accept that me stating that I want to....research a technology is theft, that STILL does not meet the requirements to employ the use of lethal force. Why? Because even if I hand you all of those clearly wrong points, the second clause of r1p6 is still not fulfilled. I was not severely disruptive inside the department prior to them threatening to kill me, and also I had not been ejected and returned to the department. So even if we bend over backwards and accept everything you say as true despite the glaring issues with your statements, Cecilia STILL would not be justified in threatening to kill me. Also, I'm not sure why you say they didn't have the AI deal with me, when I highlighted the log where they told the AI to deal with me multiple times. Here it is again:

[2023-12-09 08:05:35.504] GAME-SAY: Vect0r/(Cecilia Vujic) (mob_3438) "AI if lizards doesn't leave my workspace, please force them out" (Research and Development (139,96,2))
[2023-12-09 08:05:36.618] GAME-SAY: Vect0r/(Cecilia Vujic) (mob_3438) "thanks" (Research and Development (139,96,2))

How exactly, I wonder, is the AI going to remove me from the department non-lethally? It can't exactly walk over and grab me with it's digital hands and drag me out of the department. The tools at the disposal of the AI would be things like shocking doors, or bolting and siphoning the room that I'm in. The AI does not have any non-lethal methods of removing me, especially since it didn't have any shells.

Also, I did not beat them to death, I beat them to crit, and also provided medical aid once the threat was neutralized. This is backed up by logs posted in this thread.

Beating someone with lethals because they asked you politely to leave when you made it clear you were going to hinder them doing their proper job, asked the AI for help when you refused that, and then said they'd resort to force if you STILL wouldn't leave, is not reasonable at all. That is the peak of Greytide Entitlement. If you weren't properly job-changed in, you're not a Scientist, you're just helping with Ordnance.

The underlying fundamental problem here is whether or not they were reasonable in asking me to leave in the first place. I don't know if you read Vect0r's post in the thread, but even they, the victim in this situation, disagree with you, stating that I was a scientist in everything but name.

But it also undermines your entire point. Cecilia's """threat""" only existed in the sense that if you completely and utterly refused to leave, even after their non-lethal AI help, they would have it kill you. Y'know, when they have absolutely no other options left. That's not a credible threat, or risk of danger. You could leave. You could get help. You could talk, you CLEARLY had time to do it beforehand. And if you were truly afraid that they'd have the AI kill you, then why would you immediately give them medical aid after? Are you not afraid that they'd tell the AI that you're human harm and have you killed? It's not anywhere near an intelligent decision to make if you were afraid they'd have you killed. You just felt entitled and took the immediate first option you could to punish them for not treating you with reverence and abandoning their own plans (which are for The Entire Station, rather than your own Personal Project).

Of course they had other options left. They could have asked the Captain to verify if I was allowed in the department (which, again, I already established in the appeal that they were connected when the captain informed the science team about assigning an assistant to ordnance). They could have asked Security to come resolve the dispute. And of course it was a credible threat. They already HAD asked the AI to deal with me, which, as discussed earlier, is fundamentally a lethal matter already when you look at the tools the AI actually has available when it has no shells. I gave them medical aid after because my goal was not to kill them, it was to neutralize the threat, and then to follow the rules and end the escalation properly and get them to medical.

Also, as mentioned multiple times and also actually backed up by the logs, Cecilia opened the hostilities, not me.

Per your own logs

[2023-12-09 08:06:07.292] GAME-SAY: Typhnox/(Imitates-The-Lizards) (mob_3471) "Are you trying to get the AI to kill me" (Research and Development (139,95,2))
[2023-12-09 08:06:17.158] GAME-SAY: Vect0r/(Cecilia Vujic) (mob_3438) "if I was, I would tell it to kill you" (Research and Development (139,96,2))
[2023-12-09 08:06:20.371] GAME-SAY: Vect0r/(Cecilia Vujic) (mob_3438) "and if you don't leave" (Research and Development (139,96,2))
[2023-12-09 08:06:22.108] GAME-SAY: Vect0r/(Cecilia Vujic) (mob_3438) "yes I will" (Research and Development (139,96,2))

You can clearly see that they weren't trying to get it to kill you. You can clearly see that it's a last resort. You could have tried to talk. You could have acquiesced to the threat. You chose to grab a toolbox and start bashing. You started the Hostilities.

You're correct my opinions don't matter in the grand scheme of things, but I'm tired of seeing The Greys act like they're god's gift to the server. That's fine and well on LRP, but I'd like to hope that MRP's rules would actually be enforced.

[2023-12-09 08:05:35.504] GAME-SAY: Vect0r/(Cecilia Vujic) (mob_3438) "AI if lizards doesn't leave my workspace, please force them out" (Research and Development (139,96,2))
[2023-12-09 08:05:36.618] GAME-SAY: Vect0r/(Cecilia Vujic) (mob_3438) "thanks" (Research and Development (139,96,2))

Even if we accept that the AI was going to grow arms and legs and non-harmfully drag me out of the department....somehow....

this is Cecilia effectively holding a gun up to my head and saying "Leave or I will shoot you".

Yeah, sure, she hadn't harmed me yet, but any reasonable person can see I was in imminent danger. And again, even the victim themself disagree with you that I wasn't really a scientist. So what leg is being stood on that I should have had to leave?

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Except, r1p6 has multiple clauses to it. First off, I fundamentally disagree that I was trespassing in the department at all. But even if you think that the Captain clearly allowing me into science and giving me ordnance access and informing the science team they would be doing so still makes me a trespasser, somehow, AND if we accept that me stating that I want to....research a technology is theft, that STILL does not meet the requirements to employ the use of lethal force. Why? Because even if I hand you all of those clearly wrong points, the second clause of r1p6 is still not fulfilled. I was not severely disruptive inside the department prior to them threatening to kill me, and also I had not been ejected and returned to the department. So even if we bend over backwards and accept everything you say as true despite the glaring issues with your statements, Cecilia STILL would not be justified in threatening to kill me. Also, I'm not sure why you say they didn't have the AI deal with me, when I highlighted the log where they told the AI to deal with me multiple times. Here it is again:

[2023-12-09 08:05:35.504] GAME-SAY: Vect0r/(Cecilia Vujic) (mob_3438) "AI if lizards doesn't leave my workspace, please force them out" (Research and Development (139,96,2))
[2023-12-09 08:05:36.618] GAME-SAY: Vect0r/(Cecilia Vujic) (mob_3438) "thanks" (Research and Development (139,96,2))

How exactly, I wonder, is the AI going to remove me from the department non-lethally? It can't exactly walk over and grab me with it's digital hands and drag me out of the department. The tools at the disposal of the AI would be things like shocking doors, or bolting and siphoning the room that I'm in. The AI does not have any non-lethal methods of removing me, especially since it didn't have any shells.

I say they didn't have the AI deal with you because they didn't have it kill you. Which they say as much, and anyone not trying to argue in bad faith could easily understand. The AI has things it can do! These include: Sending a Cyborg, Calling the Security Team. All of the methods that the AI has to kill you, in your own wording, would be things it cannot do while Cecilia is within the room. So clearly, that wouldn't be a credible threat, a point you'd have to be well aware of if you're using its inability to do anything else as a reason for it to have been a Dangerous Threat from the start.

Also you are correct about the other clauses, however the first half does still stand. Which means, they're within their rights to try and have you removed WITH FORCE (as long as they don't kill you), they would be within their rights to beat you into crit, and then eject you with medical treatment. You, on the other hand, did not have that luxury.

Also, I did not beat them to death, I beat them to crit, and also provided medical aid once the threat was neutralized. This is backed up by logs posted in this thread.

Beating someone with lethals because they asked you politely to leave when you made it clear you were going to hinder them doing their proper job, asked the AI for help when you refused that, and then said they'd resort to force if you STILL wouldn't leave, is not reasonable at all. That is the peak of Greytide Entitlement. If you weren't properly job-changed in, you're not a Scientist, you're just helping with Ordnance.

The underlying fundamental problem here is whether or not they were reasonable in asking me to leave in the first place. I don't know if you read Vect0r's post in the thread, but even they, the victim in this situation, disagree with you, stating that I was a scientist in everything but name.

I'd say they were, because they're wrong. You were still an Assistant. You planned to stop doing Science and go back to Assistant Things after you were done with Ordnance. You were an Assistant who had permission to do Ordnance. No more, no less.

But it also undermines your entire point. Cecilia's """threat""" only existed in the sense that if you completely and utterly refused to leave, even after their non-lethal AI help, they would have it kill you. Y'know, when they have absolutely no other options left. That's not a credible threat, or risk of danger. You could leave. You could get help. You could talk, you CLEARLY had time to do it beforehand. And if you were truly afraid that they'd have the AI kill you, then why would you immediately give them medical aid after? Are you not afraid that they'd tell the AI that you're human harm and have you killed? It's not anywhere near an intelligent decision to make if you were afraid they'd have you killed. You just felt entitled and took the immediate first option you could to punish them for not treating you with reverence and abandoning their own plans (which are for The Entire Station, rather than your own Personal Project).

Of course they had other options left. They could have asked the Captain to verify if I was allowed in the department (which, again, I already established in the appeal that they were connected when the captain informed the science team about assigning an assistant to ordnance). They could have asked Security to come resolve the dispute. And of course it was a credible threat. They already HAD asked the AI to deal with me, which, as discussed earlier, is fundamentally a lethal matter already when you look at the tools the AI actually has available when it has no shells. I gave them medical aid after because my goal was not to kill them, it was to neutralize the threat, and then to follow the rules and end the escalation properly and get them to medical.

You mean just like you had other options left other than caving their skull in with a toolbox?

You can't just go "THEY HAD OTHER OPTIONS" while ignoring the other options you could have taken, too. Greys in other peoples' department (whether they have permission to be there for a Specific Job) shouldn't be leaping at the first excuse to beat up the people whose department it is.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

Also, I did not beat them to death, I beat them to crit, and also provided medical aid once the threat was neutralized. This is backed up by logs posted in this thread.

Beating someone with lethals because they asked you politely to leave when you made it clear you were going to hinder them doing their proper job, asked the AI for help when you refused that, and then said they'd resort to force if you STILL wouldn't leave, is not reasonable at all. That is the peak of Greytide Entitlement. If you weren't properly job-changed in, you're not a Scientist, you're just helping with Ordnance.

The underlying fundamental problem here is whether or not they were reasonable in asking me to leave in the first place. I don't know if you read Vect0r's post in the thread, but even they, the victim in this situation, disagree with you, stating that I was a scientist in everything but name.

I'd say they were, because they're wrong. You were still an Assistant. You planned to stop doing Science and go back to Assistant Things after you were done with Ordnance. You were an Assistant who had permission to do Ordnance. No more, no less.

So let me get this straight. You are telling me, with a straight face, that the actual victim in this situation, whose perspective is the only one that should fundamentally matter in regards to this situation and how reasonable what level of force can be used, is wrong.

I think you came to your conclusion first (Imitates is wrong because they were an Assistant and I hate Assistants), and are reaching back and looking for justifications for your position second, rather than looking at the evidence provided and coming to a conclusion second, and you're not even seeing how insane the things you're saying are.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Also, I did not beat them to death, I beat them to crit, and also provided medical aid once the threat was neutralized. This is backed up by logs posted in this thread.

Beating someone with lethals because they asked you politely to leave when you made it clear you were going to hinder them doing their proper job, asked the AI for help when you refused that, and then said they'd resort to force if you STILL wouldn't leave, is not reasonable at all. That is the peak of Greytide Entitlement. If you weren't properly job-changed in, you're not a Scientist, you're just helping with Ordnance.

The underlying fundamental problem here is whether or not they were reasonable in asking me to leave in the first place. I don't know if you read Vect0r's post in the thread, but even they, the victim in this situation, disagree with you, stating that I was a scientist in everything but name.

I'd say they were, because they're wrong. You were still an Assistant. You planned to stop doing Science and go back to Assistant Things after you were done with Ordnance. You were an Assistant who had permission to do Ordnance. No more, no less.

So let me get this straight. You are telling me, with a straight face, that the actual victim in this situation, whose perspective is the only one that should fundamentally matter in regards to this situation and how reasonable what level of force can be used, is wrong.

I think you came to your conclusion first (Imitates is wrong because they were an Assistant and I hate Assistants), and are reaching back and looking for justifications for your position second, rather than looking at the evidence provided and coming to a conclusion second, and you're not even seeing how insane the things you're saying are.

You're definitely correct that I have a distaste for certain types of Assistant, but my opinion is based on What Makes Sense To Me, and just claiming that I'm wrong isn't going to change that.

You talk about not looking at evidence provided, but what about you? I've pointed out problems with your logic, and you just kinda ignore 'em. I don't think that Vect0r's opinion really matters on whether you were justified to be there or were a scientist-but-not or not, because that's entirely subjective. Their opinion doesn't change what CAN be done, just what they'd choose to do, no? So thinking Objectively, the Captain gave you permission to help with Ordnance, not to make you a Scientist, which you yourself have said you didn't want to be anyway. So what part of this makes you justified, or a scientist-without-the-name?

That's the angle I'm looking at it from.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

Also, I did not beat them to death, I beat them to crit, and also provided medical aid once the threat was neutralized. This is backed up by logs posted in this thread.

Beating someone with lethals because they asked you politely to leave when you made it clear you were going to hinder them doing their proper job, asked the AI for help when you refused that, and then said they'd resort to force if you STILL wouldn't leave, is not reasonable at all. That is the peak of Greytide Entitlement. If you weren't properly job-changed in, you're not a Scientist, you're just helping with Ordnance.

The underlying fundamental problem here is whether or not they were reasonable in asking me to leave in the first place. I don't know if you read Vect0r's post in the thread, but even they, the victim in this situation, disagree with you, stating that I was a scientist in everything but name.

I'd say they were, because they're wrong. You were still an Assistant. You planned to stop doing Science and go back to Assistant Things after you were done with Ordnance. You were an Assistant who had permission to do Ordnance. No more, no less.

So let me get this straight. You are telling me, with a straight face, that the actual victim in this situation, whose perspective is the only one that should fundamentally matter in regards to this situation and how reasonable what level of force can be used, is wrong.

I think you came to your conclusion first (Imitates is wrong because they were an Assistant and I hate Assistants), and are reaching back and looking for justifications for your position second, rather than looking at the evidence provided and coming to a conclusion second, and you're not even seeing how insane the things you're saying are.

You're definitely correct that I have a distaste for certain types of Assistant, but my opinion is based on What Makes Sense To Me, and just claiming that I'm wrong isn't going to change that.

You talk about not looking at evidence provided, but what about you? I've pointed out problems with your logic, and you just kinda ignore 'em. I don't think that Vect0r's opinion really matters on whether you were justified to be there or were a scientist-but-not or not, because that's entirely subjective. Their opinion doesn't change what CAN be done, just what they'd choose to do, no? So thinking Objectively, the Captain gave you permission to help with Ordnance, not to make you a Scientist, which you yourself have said you didn't want to be anyway. So what part of this makes you justified, or a scientist-without-the-name?

That's the angle I'm looking at it from.

Okay. What would meet your standards for "yes, this assistant should be allowed to be here."?

Keep in mind that assistant only has 2 additional access slots, which were both taken up for ordnance testing and ordnance storage, and as mentioned in the appeal, I did not want to change to a scientist ID because I was only going in to science for the one specific purpose of refining myself a core in ordnance to use in reactive armor, and the captain gave me permission to do so, and the captain informed science they would be assigning me to ordnance, and a refined core is completely useless on it's own, so claiming "well you should have just only refined the core and left" would be completely nonsensical.

So with all that in mind, what exactly would meet your standards? Did the Captain have to follow right behind me waving a picket sign that says "I have given Imitates permission to be here!", or something?

[dendydoom]

i'll just re-iterate what i said in admin discussions around this right into the peanut:

feels a little bait-ey to ask "does that mean you're going to have me killed?" in response to someone saying they'll get the AI to forcefully remove you. using this as a green check mark to delete someone feels quite greasy.

i think this could've been good conflict if the assistant spent 5 seconds trying to verify that they have permission to be there with someone who literally works in the department. if the scientist then refutes that evidence, i think kicking their ass would not only be understandable but sort of deserved.

whatever the resolution to this situation is, going forward i hope you at the very least understand why there's nothing shocking about a scientist questioning why an assistant is hacking doors in their department and using their equipment however they please. to then be killed by someone who they supposedly mistook for being a dangerous intruder sort of reinforces their suspicions in the first place. having access has never been an indication of permission to be somewhere.

[chocolate_bickie]

Also, I did not beat them to death, I beat them to crit, and also provided medical aid once the threat was neutralized. This is backed up by logs posted in this thread.

Beating someone with lethals because they asked you politely to leave when you made it clear you were going to hinder them doing their proper job, asked the AI for help when you refused that, and then said they'd resort to force if you STILL wouldn't leave, is not reasonable at all. That is the peak of Greytide Entitlement. If you weren't properly job-changed in, you're not a Scientist, you're just helping with Ordnance.

The underlying fundamental problem here is whether or not they were reasonable in asking me to leave in the first place. I don't know if you read Vect0r's post in the thread, but even they, the victim in this situation, disagree with you, stating that I was a scientist in everything but name.

I'd say they were, because they're wrong. You were still an Assistant. You planned to stop doing Science and go back to Assistant Things after you were done with Ordnance. You were an Assistant who had permission to do Ordnance. No more, no less.

So let me get this straight. You are telling me, with a straight face, that the actual victim in this situation, whose perspective is the only one that should fundamentally matter in regards to this situation and how reasonable what level of force can be used, is wrong.

I think you came to your conclusion first (Imitates is wrong because they were an Assistant and I hate Assistants), and are reaching back and looking for justifications for your position second, rather than looking at the evidence provided and coming to a conclusion second, and you're not even seeing how insane the things you're saying are.

You're definitely correct that I have a distaste for certain types of Assistant, but my opinion is based on What Makes Sense To Me, and just claiming that I'm wrong isn't going to change that.

You talk about not looking at evidence provided, but what about you? I've pointed out problems with your logic, and you just kinda ignore 'em. I don't think that Vect0r's opinion really matters on whether you were justified to be there or were a scientist-but-not or not, because that's entirely subjective. Their opinion doesn't change what CAN be done, just what they'd choose to do, no? So thinking Objectively, the Captain gave you permission to help with Ordnance, not to make you a Scientist, which you yourself have said you didn't want to be anyway. So what part of this makes you justified, or a scientist-without-the-name?

That's the angle I'm looking at it from.

Okay. What would meet your standards for "yes, this assistant should be allowed to be here."?

Keep in mind that assistant only has 2 additional access slots, which were both taken up for ordnance testing and ordnance storage, and as mentioned in the appeal, I did not want to change to a scientist ID because I was only going in to science for the one specific purpose of refining myself a core in ordnance to use in reactive armor, and the captain gave me permission to do so, and the captain informed science they would be assigning me to ordnance, and a refined core is completely useless on it's own, so claiming "well you should have just only refined the core and left" would be completely nonsensical.

So with all that in mind, what exactly would meet your standards? Did the Captain have to follow right behind me waving a picket sign that says "I have given Imitates permission to be here!", or something?

Should have got a scientist ID with maint access

[CMDR_Gungnir]

[big snip of back-and-forth]
Okay. What would meet your standards for "yes, this assistant should be allowed to be here."?

Keep in mind that assistant only has 2 additional access slots, which were both taken up for ordnance testing and ordnance storage, and as mentioned in the appeal, I did not want to change to a scientist ID because I was only going in to science for the one specific purpose of refining myself a core in ordnance to use in reactive armor, and the captain gave me permission to do so, and the captain informed science they would be assigning me to ordnance, and a refined core is completely useless on it's own, so claiming "well you should have just only refined the core and left" would be completely nonsensical.

So with all that in mind, what exactly would meet your standards? Did the Captain have to follow right behind me waving a picket sign that says "I have given Imitates permission to be here!", or something?

If you were in Ordnance, or on your way TO Ordnance, would be where I'd say it's fine for you to be in this particular situation. Because that's all you wanted to do. If you want to know what my standards are for "this assistant should be allowed to be here", I'd say "Have your job changed to Scientist, or have access to that particular space if you want to loiter in it." and even then, I'd say people can kick you out in the case of the latter.

My personal opinion doesn't have any issue with you having been there, it's what you did while you were there. What makes your anomaly cores more important than T4 Parts for the entire station? Why couldn't you have waited until after? Your logs show that Cecilia was fine with you being there, and even tried to include you, until you made it clear you were planning to take their points for a Personal Project.

Why not leave until they were done, and then come back? Why not ask the Captain to research it for you? You had a bunch of options, and you chose "As an Assistant, prioritize myself over the ACTUAL departmental members, and then instantly resort to violence as soon as I have an excuse". Perhaps not intentionally, perhaps not maliciously, but it was still the way it went.

An Assistant, if they want to do Job Stuff and not just fuck around and hang out, should do just that. Assist. And that means you take a backseat to the people you're assisting. You're helping *them*. Which is why I will have a somewhat sour opinion on things like This, where someone got fucked over because an Assistant decided they were more important than the people actually in that department.

[CPTANT]

i'll just re-iterate what i said in admin discussions around this right into the peanut:

feels a little bait-ey to ask "does that mean you're going to have me killed?" in response to someone saying they'll get the AI to forcefully remove you. using this as a green check mark to delete someone feels quite greasy.

i think this could've been good conflict if the assistant spent 5 seconds trying to verify that they have permission to be there with someone who literally works in the department. if the scientist then refutes that evidence, i think kicking their ass would not only be understandable but sort of deserved.

whatever the resolution to this situation is, going forward i hope you at the very least understand why there's nothing shocking about a scientist questioning why an assistant is hacking doors in their department and using their equipment however they please. to then be killed by someone who they supposedly mistook for being a dangerous intruder sort of reinforces their suspicions in the first place. having access has never been an indication of permission to be somewhere.

Classic mistake of thinking that because one party was right in their actions the other must be wrong.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

feels a little bait-ey to ask "does that mean you're going to have me killed?" in response to someone saying they'll get the AI to forcefully remove you. using this as a green check mark to delete someone feels quite greasy.

I can see how you could come to that conclusion. I can only say in response that my intent was not to get a green check mark to attack them, it was to clarify if they were trying to have me killed by the AI, because they had already turned hostile and sicced the AI on me, and since they clearly answered yes, I attacked them because I felt threatened. My intent wasn't to cause conflict, it was to get into science, get my funny armor, and get out. This has been my story the entire time.

whatever the resolution to this situation is, going forward i hope you at the very least understand why there's nothing shocking about a scientist questioning why an assistant is hacking doors in their department and using their equipment however they please. to then be killed by someone who they supposedly mistook for being a dangerous intruder sort of reinforces their suspicions in the first place. having access has never been an indication of permission to be somewhere.

You're right, there's nothing shocking about this. However, I kind of disagree with your last sentence? Would it make any sense to say "Yes, the Captain gave you ordnance access, and gave you a task to perform in ordnance, and yes ordnance is in the back of science, so you have to hack through a bunch of doors to get there, which means you have an implicit permission to be in science, and yes, even the victim agrees that at that point you were literally just a scientist with an assistant's ID, but that doesn't actually mean you had permission to be there.". That doesn't really sound correct, does it?

[TheRex9001]

Arguing in your own peanut? I hope this appeal is sent into the volcano for that