Weighted random and bad maps

[Muffindrake]

Bottom post of the previous page:

And some admin butthurt in there, too, I guess.

I get that you want to force bad maps like Birdshot, Northstar, or Icebox, such that we have some variety, but mald overriding admins for it after the station populus decided to flush them down the toilet, where they belong, is iffy.

Weighted random voting is a not so great tool to do this without admin intervention. When I see a map with 6.2% likelihood pass, I turn dreamseeker off. The maps are that bad. Really.

[TheFinalPotato]

towerstation and sokoban, both in the depot, have never, to my knowledge, actually been in regular rotation?

Yeah I think I did a lie there. The map depot is like an archive, maps that either were in repo, or were made outside it but we want to hold onto.
It really isn't a staging ground but I misrepresented it some here.

i really, truly do believe that (with the exception of the exceptionally loud voices screaming "birdshit" &c) we're past the "people need to spend time on this map to generate feedback" phase. especially the "we are going to force people to spend time on this map to generate feedback" phase

I mean honestly the forcing is nothing new, we force people to do stuff just by how we write code and make changes. It's not that they're forced to be on the map to generate feedback it's just if they play here sometimes they'll have to play on it, cause the maptainers decided it should be in rotation.

yknow what fuck it. i'm going to put my money where my mouth is, be productive, and see about contributing to birdshot

Vibes

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Do you have an estimate for how many times that birdshot has to be forced before people will magically start liking a map that is specifically designed to suck ass as its gimmick? Cuz birdshot's been here for an increasingly long time and it just seems like people get more and more vocal about hating it the harder its forced on them. When do we hit the bottom of the "they just need to play the map more to appreciate it" trough.


Cuz we've seen tram go from the meme troll grief map to "yeah this is cool apart from the z-level problems" over the same timespan.

[TheFinalPotato]

IDK bro some or most people might not ever like it, that's life. Gimmick is kinda polarizing.
See previous post

[dendydoom]

yknow what fuck it. i'm going to put my money where my mouth is, be productive, and see about contributing to birdshot

was going to roll virtual list rendering this week anyway after nearly crashing to an air alarm in a room with 60 scrubbers

this is very noble and i have a lot of respect for that attitude. plz don't hestitate to let me know if there's anything i can do to help facilitate this.

[LiarGG]

I suppose my problem with weighted random being added is that it made the troll potential of voting stronger. I fully support the stance that "if map has a 60%+ preference, then nothing else will ever be played" is valid. And I like weigted random for enabling maps with meaningful following to be played. My issue is that it allows everything to be played. If it was about letting through a station that had 20% of votes, I am all for it. What bugs me is seeing the birdshot getting picked with barely a handful of votes and winning with 6.7% support. I might be inventing an issue here, but I remember when the sentiment "imma vote for a shit map before I leave" was spammed in OOC on every shift. And it was funny, because these votes nevet really went through. Now they do. It feels icky to have a map selected where it very well might be 4 people voting for it and 2-3 of them being disconnected by the time the next round begins. Solution might be making a vote time stable. Suppose like, the map vote will only run once the shuttle ETA gets to the unrecallable time. Then we get plenty of time for a vote to go through and it's meaningfully close the the end of the round where people who are still connected have a decent chance of playing the next one. Just a thought tho.

Personally I will be doing a map revote every time I see a map roll with 10% or less. It just feels like the exact time a mod should intervene.

Also one thing I don't fully get is why push for this now. I honestly don't think maps like tram or ice don't get played enough with how the map rotation is currently set. Lowpop is basically only birdshot or icebox and tram always pops up on midpop, so this feels like this is really just directed to be a change that forces people to play birdshot more. The question then is: Why force people to play a map that is generally disliked, and a map that struggles with getting updates, since the maker of it said themselves that they are struggling with updating it in a coding feedback thread? Like I get this change if the goal is to collect more feedback so the map maker can push out the best changes possible, but the maker said themselves they know what people love and hate, it's just that the creative process here is currently a bit frosty. Why push for this change when the map is still waiting to get updated?

If this is actually a ruse to piss off enough people to start begrudrgingly mapping in order to end up with more mappers, then based. But man does it feel icky for a lot of people including me.

So in essence, make it so the map vote rolls consistently at around round-end and don't count in maps that have under 10% vote and I think people (me) would see better outcomes of this change.

[TheFinalPotato]

Also one thing I don't fully get is why push for this now.

Over the three months before these changes northstar was picked and ran 11 times on +30 pop sybil.
Same rough issue applied to birdshot. https://superset.moth.fans/superset/das ... MR_99Rre2q

[LiarGG]

Also one thing I don't fully get is why push for this now.

Over the three months before these changes northstar was picked and ran 11 times on +30 pop sybil.
Same rough issue applied to birdshot. https://superset.moth.fans/superset/das ... MR_99Rre2q

NorthStar is in a bit of a weird spot ye. The map is too big for an average sized crew imo, which could discourage picking it till like 60-70 pop. Actually I would wonder if the disparity in voting for northstar smooths out a bit at higher pop, but sure I can kinda get behind the point for NorthStar. For birdshot, do you have stats for all pop ranges? Because I am willing to bet that a lot of birdshot games happen under the 30 pop limit on this set.

All in all, I am not against trying to bring people to different maps, I just don't think that doing it through a sub 10% map vote is the way to do it.

[Vekter]

Scriptis, I can safely say that we have a bit more insight on whether or not people are intentionally griefing to speedrun Birdshot rounds. I can promise you that it is a thing that's happened more than a couple of times, though it usually takes the form of trying to get the shuttle called as quickly as possible. Dendy is not inventing a strawman here, this is actually A Thing that Has Happened More Than Once.

i'll take your word for it

problem is that even with that the weighted random voting really rubs me the wrong way. it's a disjoint issue, at least to me; players griefing ought to be banned, but the lot shouldn't have to suffer for it. people still just want to _not play birdshot_

I think weighted random is fine because I don't personally think any of our maps are so bad that they should be hated even closed to as much as they are now. There's always one map that people hate even if they can't really articulate why. It was Pubby for a while, then it was Kilo, then Icebox, now Birdshot. I maintain that the server could have two maps that are just "Metastation" and "Metastation with a single tile changed" and people would find a reason to hate one of them. This isn't me denying that there are valid reasons to dislike a map, I'm saying that hating maps has always been A Thing people do on /tg/ and there's always going to be people who only one want choice and never want something else. Trying to cater how the server is run around a group of people who are never going to be satisfied unless we're only running Meta and Delta isn't going to fix anything.

Off Topic

I still haven't heard a single valid complaint about Kilo aside from its size and the fact that it was visually busy. I liked that it was a smaller map and I liked that it had some personality in its decals. I think the only issue it had was performance based and I'm still not convinced that wasn't a BYOND issue. Bring back Kilo 2024.

[Jacquerel]

the reason birdshot replaced kilo is largely related to what potato was saying earlier; it was notorious for being a nightmare to add any new feature to it and would inevitably require you to reorganise several neighbouring rooms just to add one additional full-tile structure

[Vekter]

the reason birdshot replaced kilo is largely related to what potato was saying earlier; it was notorious for being a nightmare to add any new feature to it and would inevitably require you to reorganise several neighbouring rooms just to add one additional full-tile structure

Okay, that makes sense. I do remember thinking it was probably a nightmare to build into without having to expand it.

[xzero314]

Weighted Random was one of the best recent updates. Its very refreshing getting to play Bird or Northstar more than once every several days. Fantastic change.

[Xkallubar]

We have only 6 maps in rotation. Add a 7th map to the rotation. We don't have a ton of maps. Add Kilo or Pubby back, those are good maps.

[warbluke]

Add Kilo or Pubby back, those are good maps.

Add Kilo AND Pubby back.

[Cheshify]

There's a reason old maps were retired, please, if you want a new map make it from scratch and let it fill a niche better than an existing map does.

[Timonk]

kilo actually grew on me tbh

[Timonk]

There's a reason old maps were retired, please, if you want a new map make it from scratch and let it fill a niche better than an existing map does.

reason: forced 1984

[Vekter]

There's a reason old maps were retired, please, if you want a new map make it from scratch and let it fill a niche better than an existing map does.

reason: forced 1984

The only ones I'm moderately certain of are:

Kilo - As Jacq specified above, it was a pain to maintain because you had to move around half the station to add anything due to how compact it was.
Box - Removed because Icebox is a more interesting variant of that map.
Pubby - I think it was removed because the person who created it stopped maintaining it and nobody wanted to step up to work on it. That or I think we shelved it because it was unpopular at the time compared to other maps.

[Timonk]

There's a reason old maps were retired, please, if you want a new map make it from scratch and let it fill a niche better than an existing map does.

reason: forced 1984

The only ones I'm moderately certain of are:

Kilo - As Jacq specified above, it was a pain to maintain because you had to move around half the station to add anything due to how compact it was.
Box - Removed because Icebox is a more interesting variant of that map.
Pubby - I think it was removed because the person who created it stopped maintaining it and nobody wanted to step up to work on it. That or I think we shelved it because it was unpopular at the time compared to other maps.

tldr 1984

[Jacquerel]

I was a huge kilo appreciator tbh but I don't get too attached to things, nothing in ss13 is permanent

[DATAxPUNGED]

which one would you choose?

Absolutely the red one. I love northstar and would be sad to see it gone but not having any other map ever again would be sad

[zergking]

If y’all don’t like the maps, make new ones. Don’t just play in delta or meta, because they are both cringe. Map making is not that hard, and you can make it a team effort.

[BonChoi]

If I start making shovelware maps that'll never be added will my opinion be valid then?

[TheFinalPotato]

We have only 6 maps in rotation. Add a 7th map to the rotation. We don't have a ton of maps. Add Kilo or Pubby back, those are good maps.

Do you just refuse to read my posts?

[Itseasytosee2me]

I'll be real. I'm pretty sure I only like meta because I know where everything is, and that it has a clean loop of all of the departments so you never have to take any twists or turns to get anywhere. If I had more experience with other maps, I would probably like them more.
Meta probably also has xyz principles that make it a good map or whatever but that is not my expertise.

[Timonk]

We need procedurally generated maps

[Cheshify]

Ultimately people like maps they're familiar with, and weighted random forces people to eventually be familiar with every map.

[warbluke]

Ultimately people like maps they're familiar with, and weighted random forces people to eventually be familiar with every map.

Unless you play on lowpop in which case Delta and Northstar remain semi-mythical.
I've played Northstar legitimately less than ten times ever.

[zergking]

If I start making shovelware maps that'll never be added will my opinion be valid then?

Yes! If anything, we can use em for event maps since they can be hot loaded in!

[Prussen]

I don't believe the argument that people don't like these maps because they haven't tried them or that there hasn't been enough feedback for them to iron out the issues holds any water. That's because it's been months (a year!!!) since Birdshot and Northstar have been added and they are still unpopular and generally disliked (as you can tell, because nobody is voting for them).

If 69% love 2 maps combined and 31% combined love the 3 other maps, than shouldn't that mean the two most popular maps get played 100% of the time, but instead that they get played 69% of the time.

This doesn't seem to work out in-game, in the past 2-3 days I've seen rotations of Icebox, Icebox, Tram or Northstar, Northstar and such. Considering that a very low percentage of players are voting for these maps, it doesn't make sense that there would be multiple back to back rounds featuring them.

The round I just showed you came after a Northstar, Northstar, Delta rotation, and then back to Northstar (during the height of Terry's pop).

I personally have tried these maps and I've decided I don't like them, so I simply log off. This wasn't a problem with the previous voting system where you'd get one of these maps served up so the people who like it can enjoy it but now you'll see the entirety of a server's peak pop hour be absorbed by these generally disliked maps, meaning when you're finally interested in playing, either the pop has dropped to 20 or you're busy.

Why should 93.3% of players have to play maps they don't like and aren't interested multiple times in a row because 6.7% want to play it, seems unfair. It's ok for there to be a Northstar or Icebox shift every 2-3 rounds since a minority of players do like those maps, and should be allowed to enjoy them, but this new system is just forcing down these maps down the throats of the playerbase (especially since rock the vote has been disabled).

If y’all don’t like the maps, make new ones. Don’t just play in delta or meta, because they are both cringe. Map making is not that hard, and you can make it a team effort.

Basically saying "If you don't like the maps I like, go make new ones, but don't play the maps you like, because I don't like them.", seems extremely bad faith.

Is also assuming that these players who are complaining because they don't have the time to sit around waiting for the map they like will spend that time making a new map because you won't let them play the already existing and well received maps.

i don't agree with the finite time argument though. we all have finite time. no one person's round is more important than anyone else's. we have 4 (technically 5 but we would have to unchain the basement to get to campbell) servers all running different maps.

Hey EU LRP player, don't like Northstar? Go play MRP, deadpop or TGMC if you're so stubborn.

[Jacquerel]

People keep citing "pop dies when this happens" but we have the stats tracked for this and it doesn't, it's just not worth using this as an argument because it is trivially disproved
(Or more specifically: It doesn't for Birdshot or Tram, Northstar has a detectable dip that's more likely to not just be noise but tbqh I think it's more about the map's performance on computers than its design)

[britgrenadier1]

People keep citing "pop dies when this happens" but we have the stats tracked for this and it doesn't, it's just not worth using this as an argument because it is trivially disproved
(Or more specifically: It doesn't for Birdshot or Tram, Northstar has a detectable dip that's more likely to not just be noise but tbqh I think it's more about the map's performance on computers than its design)

Don’t have a horse in this race one way or the other, but post em then. Anecdotally I came to the same concussion that pop dips on birdshot rounds (I think the map has charm for the record). If I’m wrong send them car fax

[Prussen]

People keep citing "pop dies when this happens" but we have the stats tracked for this and it doesn't, it's just not worth using this as an argument because it is trivially disproved
(Or more specifically: It doesn't for Birdshot or Tram, Northstar has a detectable dip that's more likely to not just be noise but tbqh I think it's more about the map's performance on computers than its design)

It might not die when people are forced to play only these maps in their limited timeframe.

Just to addon to my last post, the maps that followed immediately after Northstar were Icebox and Birdshot, not even a single Meta in sight.

[MrStonedOne]

https://superset.moth.fans/superset/dashboard/population-changes-by-map/

Our statistical platform lets anybody see the reports we setup: https://superset.moth.fans/superset/dashboard/

[Vekter]

Hey EU LRP player, don't like Northstar? Go play MRP, deadpop or TGMC if you're so stubborn.

I have never had a single situation where I've seen a map come up that I don't like and thought "Okay, I guess I'm done playing today". It's just not that deep.

[datorangebottle]

people who like tram when meta is played for the ninth time in a row:

people who hate birdshot when birdshot is played for the first time in a week:

[Timonk]

BASED

[Timonk]

unlike you i can recognize comedy when it occurs

[dendydoom]

i don't agree with the finite time argument though. we all have finite time. no one person's round is more important than anyone else's. we have 4 (technically 5 but we would have to unchain the basement to get to campbell) servers all running different maps.

Hey EU LRP player, don't like Northstar? Go play MRP, deadpop or TGMC if you're so stubborn.

i'm an eu player and i have 0 issues finding somewhere to play. either i suck it up and play on a map that isn't my favourite, play on a different server where the conditions aren't perfect but it's running a map i like, or i go and do something else with my free time.

i'm not uncaring to your plight. it is sad that this is getting in the way of you having a good time. but i am struggling to find a compromise when the boundary that's being proposed is "i don't like 67% of the maps being run and refuse to play them"

i have been attempting to start a conversation about compromises in this thread but no one has been biting. i'm not the decisionmaker here in any capacity, but realistically it's unlikely that the old system is going to come back any time soon. most people interested in the health of this project are unlikely to be acquiescent to a culture that refuses to participate unless the conditions are perfect.

[Ezel]

only map i dont like is birdshot but i still play it its not like its the end of the day at max its a half hour for highpop rounds and 1 hour+ for lowpop(which the map is designed for) i feel weighted maps for lowpop should have less weight in highpop rounds

[Constellado]

I personally don't mind weighted random. HOWEVER... I am not a fan of people being able to place map votes in the middle or beginning of a round. I never see the votes as I am busy, and then I dont end up voting. Can we just make it so the map vote happens at the end of a round, each, and every time? People will eventually get the habit of voting and more people would vote.

I like having a variety of maps in my day, but I do like seeing meta and delta atleast once a day to get my brain grounded in reality sometimes.

My very quick map reviews, not in order:
Tram: A lot of people like tram now but I still dislike it. It caused and still does cause too many engineering headaches for me while also not giving me much to do. If there is a breach in the tram area, you are FUCKED. There is just too much space to get that refilled in a reasonable time. I do like the changes to tram had over time though, and I don't feel annoyed when I see it now. You also have to go out of your way to go to the library and the chapel, needing a whole tram ride from most departments. Those areas have very little foot traffic as a result. If you are doing a construction based gimmick in those areas, the chances of people finding it organically is low. You gotta advertise it.

Northstar: I used to adore Northstar when it came out, but I started to notice its problems and quirks over time. Engi is too small imho with no proper break room for such a large ship. I am glad the wires in maints are covered up, as maints is big, but I rarely need to set foot in maints as a result. Also, due to the layout, many other places also dont get much foot traffic. Especially places like the holodeck, and the theatre. Also, if nothing in toxins burns down, there is not much to do as an engineer other than doing construction projects. It is VERY hard to space the place. This allows for more RP opportunities, which I like, but can sometimes cause me to be patrolling the halls looking for a person to talk to, and sometimes those halls feel empty, especially on low pop. This needs to be reinforced as a high pop map.

Birdshot: I like Birdshot. It's so cursed it is good. It gives me things to do as a CE, and is great for low pop for me. Service gets a lot of foot traffic as well, which I like a lot. The map layout is great for getting to where you need (apart from stuff around science) once you know the map. Not a fan of the maintenance satelite (east of science) though. There is 0 foot traffick over there, so monsters like Xenos and spiders can make a big nest in there. It's a bit too big IMHO for a place basically for antags only.

Meta, Delta: Meta and Delta are classics, I like them. Classic, simple maps that have all I like. Both have great foot traffic in most areas, which I am a fan of. I often use the maints in both as a shortcut to places, which I really like being able to do.

Icebox: I see icebox similar to meta and delta, just bigger, and with a cool atmos outside to do things with. Does get boring after playing it a lot though, which I don't feel with meta and delta for some reason. The perma sometimes feels too big (but its epic for doing insane prison projects), and in my opinion should have more perma job slots in there to make it more fun. I feel Icebox is a high pop map as well, and I see it too much on low pop.

I am personally a BIG fan of stations that can get foot traffic in every part of the station. Including their maints.

[Jacquerel]

limiting the timing of votes to the end of the round seems like a frequently mentioned and also sensible idea
if that isn't already config-able though it'll have to wait until February

[Timonk]

The only qualms I have about meta and Delta is that everyone knows exactly where to check for antags

[MrStonedOne]

skill issue. stop hanging out in obvious spots

[Timonk]

skill issue. stop hanging out in obvious spots

the only spot i can think of on meta that is "not obvious" and not regularly checked by security is arrivals toilets, which STILL gets checked from time to time. from your overwhelming recent playtime, do you have any suggestions where terry security wont check within the first 20 minutes in each round?

[BonChoi]

skill issue. stop hanging out in obvious spots

the only spot i can think of on meta that is "not obvious" and not regularly checked by security is arrivals toilets, which STILL gets checked from time to time. from your overwhelming recent playtime, do you have any suggestions where terry security wont check within the first 20 minutes in each round?

false wall off a random room in maintenance

[oranges]

lot of copium here.

[Timonk]

skill issue. stop hanging out in obvious spots

the only spot i can think of on meta that is "not obvious" and not regularly checked by security is arrivals toilets, which STILL gets checked from time to time. from your overwhelming recent playtime, do you have any suggestions where terry security wont check within the first 20 minutes in each round?

false wall off a random room in maintenance

did you know that false walls dont show up on mesons and that some HoS mains run mesons regularly because of that? its like yelling "im right here!!" also theres only so many rooms you can false wall into

[BonChoi]

skill issue. stop hanging out in obvious spots

the only spot i can think of on meta that is "not obvious" and not regularly checked by security is arrivals toilets, which STILL gets checked from time to time. from your overwhelming recent playtime, do you have any suggestions where terry security wont check within the first 20 minutes in each round?

false wall off a random room in maintenance

did you know that false walls dont show up on mesons and that some HoS mains run mesons regularly because of that? its like yelling "im right here!!" also theres only so many rooms you can false wall into

That's disgusting and also why I don't play on terry

[DATAxPUNGED]

did you know that false walls dont show up on mesons and that some HoS mains run mesons regularly because of that? its like yelling "im right here!!" also theres only so many rooms you can false wall into

Honestly sounds like an oversight

[Timonk]

That's disgusting and also why I don't play on terry

not only happening on terry i reckon

[Timonk]

okay regularly is maybe an overstatement but its more like when they feel like it