Savage Security Speedster Sabotaged by Scheming Shotgun scheme

[Blacklist897]

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=35552
Ban itself seems bullshit but jeff has hit that time of note critical mass
if Manny loses its most active hos main then someone will have to fill the gap and I really don't want to play hos more

[Sightld2]

My honest, live reaction
[2597-13-56 00:53:18.008] GAME-INCOMPAT: ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: sightid2/(Terrabyte) "he used a shotgun, we finally got him."

[TheLoLSwat]

trolling an admins event to getting banned for an odd reason has been a true combo for as long as admins have been a thing. Also shotguns doing brute damage even when you use it to stamcrit is so cringe and you risk a lot using it for like no gain compared to alternative that dont do damage (and its not even good damage so youll never actually use it for damage).

E: Jeff should just do it on LRP but its a big step from tutorialserver, its just lame powergaming hard for your frags on the one server that has anti-powergaming rules

[EmpressMaia]

admins hate jeff for silly reasons, hes grown very well as a security player, he is occasionally gamey but within MRP limits. free my boy or we riot

[dendydoom]

i have 0 opinion until i see actual facts and logs. the vid is cool.

everyone spent the entire day getting riled up in discord over this. there were copypastas about specific admins to conspiracies about xemo who wasn't even involved he was busy working on his event and then it was even brought up that the lawyer must have been fucking an admin.

no admins hate jeff. and admins that make bans based on personal bias are quickly found out, usually internally before the ban is even applied. don't start inventing these silly fantasies because it helps no one. if the ban is bad, it'll be resolved after the facts have been laid out.

[DrAmazing343]

The big deal about this ban is that it ISN'T really powergaming for frags here. Insofar as I can tell, Jeff just used the shotgun because he had it on him/it was funny/whatever, NOT to game. There's very few situations the shotgun with rubber shot is at all really more powerful than a lot else in their kit.

I would really, really hate to see Jeff go from Sec. I think overall, he's a bit of a gamer, but he's THE HoS player of current era, and if they don't overturn this bean then we're being plunged into the fucking dark ages while the Sec Mafia decides their new next leader (disabler duels and loser gets swirlied to death in a toilet full of quadsec)

[CMDR_Gungnir]

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=35552
Ban itself seems bullshit but jeff has hit that time of note critical mass
if Manny loses its most active hos main then someone will have to fill the gap and I really don't want to play hos more

Notes aren't punishments crowd when Notes are literally the only thing that anyone has against Jeff:

No, for real, though. There are so many worse people than Jeff. I don't know how anyone can unironically accuse him of "powergaming" and "playing to win" when the vast majority of the time (in my experience as a SecOff or Det under him) he just whacks someone as a token effort and says "Don't do it again" and lets them run off. He's not trying to be a cunt, he's just good at the game, and is actively aware of that and takes steps to ensure that him being good at the game doesn't ruin it for other people.

[Blacklist897]

trolling an admins event to getting banned for an odd reason has been a true combo for as long as admins have been a thing. Also shotguns doing brute damage even when you use it to stamcrit is so cringe and you risk a lot using it for like no gain compared to alternative that dont do damage (and its not even good damage so youll never actually use it for damage).

E: Jeff should just do it on LRP but its a big step from tutorialserver, its just lame powergaming hard for your frags on the one server that has anti-powergaming rules

jeffs strong enough to survive on lrp he in his own words "likes manny because my officers will listen to me"

[xzero314]

In my hundreds of hours of sec officer. I can say easily that Jeff Gaiman is one of the BEST Hos players I have seen. Time and time again I have seen them RP out ENTIRE STORY ARCS in a round. I have seen them do their best to make the round interesting still for Antags that have been caught. When you are a Sec officer and Jeff is the hos you can be sure that if you are trying to do your job Jeff will ALWAYS have your back. You can be sure Jeff will not tolerate shit sec. You can always rely on Jeff to make the tough calls and to deliver concise orders.

The Idea that Jeff is simply a power gamer that is here to get frags couldn't be further from W R O N G. I have personally witnessed Jeff receive and come back from two separate sec job bans and he improved after BOTH TIMES. I think its a massive MASSIVE Shame that the Admins have failed to notice this improvement and genuine good faith sec play from Jeff. I think that like many people, myself included. Jeff enjoys making 2d spess man horizontal. I think they have only improved over time in reigning in this desire as Hos. Countless good memories and gimmicks and stories have been had on Manuel because of Jeff's HOS gameplay.

You will not find a more consistent HOS in all of manuel. This is a massive loss for the community and the server.

[Sightld2]

please stop arguing whether notes are punishment or not, the difference between the two points is razor thin and in actual practice does not change anything.

[JupiterJaeden]

In my hundreds of hours of sec officer. I can say easily that Jeff Gaiman is one of the BEST Hos players I have seen. Time and time again I have seen them RP out ENTIRE STORY ARCS in a round. I have seen them do their best to make the round interesting still for Antags that have been caught. When you are a Sec officer and Jeff is the hos you can be sure that if you are trying to do your job Jeff will ALWAYS have your back. You can be sure Jeff will not tolerate shit sec. You can always rely on Jeff to make the tough calls and to deliver concise orders.

The Idea that Jeff is simply a power gamer that is here to get frags couldn't be further from W R O N G. I have personally witnessed Jeff receive and come back from two separate sec job bans and he improved after BOTH TIMES. I think its a massive MASSIVE Shame that the Admins have failed to notice this improvement and genuine good faith sec play from Jeff. I think that like many people, myself included. Jeff enjoys making 2d spess man horizontal. I think they have only improved over time in reigning in this desire as Hos. Countless good memories and gimmicks and stories have been had on Manuel because of Jeff's HOS gameplay.

You will not find a more consistent HOS in all of manuel. This is a massive loss for the community and the server.

Genuinely, you don't know how much this means to me. The fact that I know people like having me around is the only reason why I even bother fighting out these tiring appeals. I have a 100 reasons for preferring manuel over the tg LRP servers, more than just what blacklist said (even though he is correct about that lol), but at this point more than anything it's the people and the community. <3

[britgrenadier1]

What a fucking shame. One of the biggest inspirations for sec players on manny, someone who consistently roleplays more as sec then anyone else on the server, and who has personally grown the community by teaching new people and getting people involved in the mannycord and tg cord. Being a no nonsense character does not equate to playing the game like TTT, go observe Reider on Sybil and then go watch Jeff.

[AsbestosSniffer]

please stop arguing whether notes are punishment or not, the difference between the two points is razor thin and in actual practice does not change anything.

I'm sorry but I simply fail to see how that's the case when a ban as ridiculous as this is applied.
And yes, it's a bad ban, it's complete nonsense, it shouldn't have even been in the realm of possibility in this situation.
#FreeGaiman

[Sightld2]

please stop arguing whether notes are punishment or not, the difference between the two points is razor thin and in actual practice does not change anything.

I'm sorry but I simply fail to see how that's the case when a ban as ridiculous as this is applied.
And yes, it's a bad ban, it's complete nonsense, it shouldn't have even been in the realm of possibility in this situation.
#FreeGaiman

There are two ideas:

A. Notes are punishment. Because when you have them, you get punished harder next time. They turn into bans, harsher and harsher. Sure.
B. Notes are not punishment. They're just logs and recordkeeping. When your punishment gets worse next time, it's not because of the note at all, it's because the same behavior was repeated again after already being told off for it.

It's semantics. Because the same thing happens whether you view them as a punishment or not. I think it's easier and cleaner to call them punishments. But it truly, does not, matter.

[KateAnbolho]

E: Jeff should just do it on LRP but its a big step from tutorialserver, its just lame powergaming hard for your frags on the one server that has anti-powergaming rules

I dont really see how it's powergaming when the HoS starts with a shotgun in their locker. It's not like he raided the armory.

[ItzRiumz]

I'm not gonna lie, this ban is complete bullshit. Jeff is an amazing sec player and anytime he's the hos I expect a good round from security. Him treating the game like TTS is also a bullshit claim as I've seen great RP from him whenever he plays sec.
#FreeGaiman

[AidenFinlay]

I absolutely despise whenever I see Gaiman as Sec if I'm an antag, because he's fucking amazing at it. He doesn't fuck around, and still knows how to roleplay despite it all, which is saying a lot compared to a lot of sec players.
#FreeGaiman

[Jackraxxus]

Gaiman is a terrible gigashitter when not playing sec
Good sec tho
Pls inverse his roleban ty

[JupiterJaeden]

Gaiman is a terrible gigashitter when not playing sec
Good sec tho
Pls inverse his roleban ty

unimaginably based take xD

[iwishforducks]

this situation makes me sad. im hoping things turn out well in the end here

[CMDR_Gungnir]

please stop arguing whether notes are punishment or not, the difference between the two points is razor thin and in actual practice does not change anything.

I'm sorry but I simply fail to see how that's the case when a ban as ridiculous as this is applied.
And yes, it's a bad ban, it's complete nonsense, it shouldn't have even been in the realm of possibility in this situation.
#FreeGaiman

There are two ideas:

A. Notes are punishment. Because when you have them, you get punished harder next time. They turn into bans, harsher and harsher. Sure.
B. Notes are not punishment. They're just logs and recordkeeping. When your punishment gets worse next time, it's not because of the note at all, it's because the same behavior was repeated again after already being told off for it.

It's semantics. Because the same thing happens whether you view them as a punishment or not. I think it's easier and cleaner to call them punishments. But it truly, does not, matter.

This is objectively false because you have cases like this where he did absolutely nothing wrong but still got hit JUST because of the notes.

Takes like this, ESPECIALLY AT A TIME LIKE THIS, are why people lose faith in the admin team.

Edit: Fuck it, I'll expand on it.
Lethal rounds for shotguns have been either removed (Buckshot) or nerfed into the ground repeatedly (improv). This means that the only purpose that a shotgun serves now is LTL rounds. In an EMERGENCY BIG DICK SITUATION, you're not going to reach for the Shotgun, because it's less effective as a Non-Lethal tool, and utterly useless as a Lethal one. Which means, if you have cases like this and you can't use a shotgun, when ARE you supposed to?

At that point, having Shotguns in the game at all is just banbait, because if you try to use them in any time when they'll be useful, you're going to get in trouble. Now you can say "But wouldn't a disabler have been better?" at which point "Jeff powergames and PLAYS TO WIN and treats the game like TTT" is objectively false, because he's clearly used a suboptimal choice for the fun of it. You can say the damage was a net negative, but honestly it's useful too, because now the dude's got less room to work with if he picks another fight.

This makes "Don't brig the guy" a more viable option. He's less likely to pick a fight during the Trial because he's already injured. Whereas if he was just Disabler'd, he'd probably pick more fights, and thus you would HAVE to brig him, which would remove him from the roleplay.

Ironically, this fucking choice that he got beaned for, SOLELY BECAUSE OF HIS "HISTORY" AND "NOTES", was not only less effective from a No Fun Allowed Power Gamer perspective, but MORE EFFECTIVE from a Let People Partake In The Roleplay one.

So no, I'm not going to sit here and watch you go "nuh it semantic!!! notes aren't punishment its just repeat behaviour!!! it doesn't change anything!!!" when Jeff's notes have turned him DOING SOMETHING GOOD, into a perma-ban from all Sec roles AND Captain.

That's fucking ridiculous, and you know it.

[Timonk]

My honest, live reaction
[2597-13-56 00:53:18.008] GAME-INCOMPAT: ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: sightid2/(Terrabyte) "he used a shotgun, we finally got him."

average banbot cyberstalking INNOCENT player to finally get them banned for the smallest infraction

[Jezzared]

BREAKING NEWS: Notorious Security Roleplayer Banned From Security For Not Roleplaying!

What are shotguns for at this point exactly? Because lethal shells got balanced out and ltls get you jobbanned. Should i just be putting them on my back unloaded like a clothing item?

We should PR these and call them "Improvised Gaiman Shells"

[Sightld2]

This is objectively false because you have cases like this where he did absolutely nothing wrong but still got hit JUST because of the notes.

Takes like this, ESPECIALLY AT A TIME LIKE THIS, are why people lose faith in the admin team.

I do not think action was taken here solely because of notes. I have said in Admin-Bus "If it were me, and there weren't a related security note history, then I'd leave it at a "That was really funny, dont do it again" note."
He did not get hit just because of notes, it's this severe because of notes.

At that point, having Shotguns in the game at all is just banbait, because if you try to use them in any time when they'll be useful, you're going to get in trouble.

I think there's a range of acceptable area in between non-lethal and field execution. The thread NecromancerAnne brought up highlights it, intent matters especially. We need to ask, "why the shotgun?" Which isn't to argue in this case specifically, only that shotguns are not ban bait.

Back to this case though:

Now you can say "But wouldn't a disabler have been better?" at which point "Jeff powergames and PLAYS TO WIN and treats the game like TTT" is objectively false, because he's clearly used a suboptimal choice for the fun of it. You can say the damage was a net negative, but honestly it's useful too, because now the dude's got less room to work with if he picks another fight.

Well. No. The Disabler would have taken five shots, to the shotguns two. It's more comparable to a baton. Except faster. And dealt 30 damage.

This makes "Don't brig the guy" a more viable option. He's less likely to pick a fight during the Trial because he's already injured. Whereas if he was just Disabler'd, he'd probably pick more fights, and thus you would HAVE to brig him, which would remove him from the roleplay.

brigging the lawyer wasn't even in question at all. He was not under arrest it looks like. I imagine because he wasn't truthfully a threat that had warranted it. Should you be dealing 30 damage to someone if you're not even trying to arrest them? I don't know. This is what I said about the situation in asay. Well. I said more. But this is the gist. :
[2024-01-04 07:25:54.524] GAME-COMPAT: ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: Sightld2/(Mouser Emme) (mob_3997) "Polling bus is a good idea. I'm kinda ambivalent myself" (Space (96,221,2))

Ironically, this fucking choice that he got beaned for, SOLELY BECAUSE OF HIS "HISTORY" AND "NOTES", was not only less effective from a No Fun Allowed Power Gamer perspective, but MORE EFFECTIVE from a Let People Partake In The Roleplay one.

So no, I'm not going to sit here and watch you go "nuh it semantic!!! notes aren't punishment its just repeat behaviour!!! it doesn't change anything!!!" when Jeff's notes have turned him DOING SOMETHING GOOD, into a perma-ban from all Sec roles AND Captain.

That's fucking ridiculous, and you know it.

No I'm quite certain the shotgun was more optimal in taking down the lawyer than any of the purely non-lethal options available.

I will grant: It was pretty funny. "HoS is on trial for excessive use of force, shoots the fucking lawyer with a shotgun."

I'm not sure I consider that a net good. As I said, I'd call it a "That was funny, don't do it again." In a vacuum.

So no, I'm not going to sit here and watch you go "nuh it semantic!!! notes aren't punishment its just repeat behaviour!!! it doesn't change anything!!!"

It is semantics. But don't misquote me; I said it was more practical to call them punishments. I said it doesn't change anything whether you view them as a punishment or recordkeeping. Because we'd still be here either way.

[Sightld2]

My honest, live reaction
[2597-13-56 00:53:18.008] GAME-INCOMPAT: ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: sightid2/(Terrabyte) "he used a shotgun, we finally got him."

average banbot cyberstalking INNOCENT player to finally get them banned for the smallest infraction

This is 100% true though

[Jackraxxus]

>it's another "are notes punishments" episode
ppl should start reporting these guys as off topic tbqh

[Blacklist897]

"intent on mrp for slower paced rounds" jeff is one of the only hos plays i know who will let heratics go if he gets them early

[AsbestosSniffer]

"intent on mrp for slower paced rounds" jeff is one of the only hos plays i know who will let heratics go if he gets them early

Not to mention that security often has SO MUCH to deal with in these so-called "slower-paced rounds", even with their so-called "metaprotections" which interestingly seem to be null and void almost every goddamn time, it's frustrating to see this, even as someone who doesn't play sec. I cannot express enough just how piss poor of a ban this is and the disconnect between the banning admin in question and actual players of the MRP server they're invoking.

[kieth4]

What even is this ban for I'm so fucking confused. How did he void his metaprotections. Why is shooting someone with rubber shot worth a note. It wasn't like he was spamming the shot can an mrp head explain this to me

[AsbestosSniffer]

What even is this ban for I'm so fucking confused. How did he void his metaprotections. Why is shooting someone with rubber shot worth a note

Exactly that basically, but the banning admin in question is using mental gymnastics and "uh well akhtually you skirted the lines sometimes " to make him look worse, a metric shit-tonne of Manuel regulars (MRP SERVER BTW, THE MRP SERVER THEY KEEP MENTIONING) come out in support of Jeff and disputing the reasoning behind this, it's a load of horseshit, you'll hear that from me and most other players on Manuel, I guarantee you.

#FreeGaiman
#Gaimangate

[kieth4]

What even is this ban for I'm so fucking confused. How did he void his metaprotections. Why is shooting someone with rubber shot worth a note

Exactly that basically, but the banning admin in question is using mental gymnastics and "uh well akhtually you skirted the lines sometimes " to make him look worse, a metric shit-tonne of Manuel regulars (MRP SERVER BTW, THE MRP SERVER THEY KEEP MENTIONING) come out in support of Jeff and disputing the reasoning behind this, it's a load of horseshit, you'll hear that from me and most other players on Manuel, I guarantee you.

#FreeGaiman
#Gaimangate

No but I mean literally what did homie do, I do not think accidently criting someone is worth punishment when they're healed like 3.1s later either.

I'm curious as to what the actual ban is for because I've not understood it. Is it because he has a history?

Can someone genuienly explain this to me in monkey terms because I feel retarded

[AsbestosSniffer]

What even is this ban for I'm so fucking confused. How did he void his metaprotections. Why is shooting someone with rubber shot worth a note

Exactly that basically, but the banning admin in question is using mental gymnastics and "uh well akhtually you skirted the lines sometimes " to make him look worse, a metric shit-tonne of Manuel regulars (MRP SERVER BTW, THE MRP SERVER THEY KEEP MENTIONING) come out in support of Jeff and disputing the reasoning behind this, it's a load of horseshit, you'll hear that from me and most other players on Manuel, I guarantee you.

#FreeGaiman
#Gaimangate

No but I mean literally what did homie do, I do not think accidently criting someone is worth punishment when they're healed like 3.1s later either.

I'm curious as to what the actual ban is for because I've not understood it. Is it because he has a history?

To put it simply: Yes

And yes, I'm being entirely serious with my prior post, it's a load of horseshit. This shotgun incident was the straw that broke the camel's back.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

What even is this ban for I'm so fucking confused. How did he void his metaprotections. Why is shooting someone with rubber shot worth a note

Exactly that basically, but the banning admin in question is using mental gymnastics and "uh well akhtually you skirted the lines sometimes " to make him look worse, a metric shit-tonne of Manuel regulars (MRP SERVER BTW, THE MRP SERVER THEY KEEP MENTIONING) come out in support of Jeff and disputing the reasoning behind this, it's a load of horseshit, you'll hear that from me and most other players on Manuel, I guarantee you.

#FreeGaiman
#Gaimangate

No but I mean literally what did homie do, I do not think accidently criting someone is worth punishment when they're healed like 3.1s later either.

I'm curious as to what the actual ban is for because I've not understood it. Is it because he has a history?

Can someone genuienly explain this to me in monkey terms because I feel retarded

He used to be a much worse HoS player and built up a lot of notes, each of which he has learned from and improved after every single time, but he is still being held to his worst just because he has those notes, while admins try to say "notes might be punishments, but it's not that big of a deal"

It's very telling that I have LITERALLY not seen a single Manuel Player speak out in favour of this ban, especially after the massive outpour of everyone being in favour of Sorrel's, but apparently the Admin Metaclub is all very in favour of keeping this one.

[kieth4]

What even is this ban for I'm so fucking confused. How did he void his metaprotections. Why is shooting someone with rubber shot worth a note

Exactly that basically, but the banning admin in question is using mental gymnastics and "uh well akhtually you skirted the lines sometimes " to make him look worse, a metric shit-tonne of Manuel regulars (MRP SERVER BTW, THE MRP SERVER THEY KEEP MENTIONING) come out in support of Jeff and disputing the reasoning behind this, it's a load of horseshit, you'll hear that from me and most other players on Manuel, I guarantee you.

#FreeGaiman
#Gaimangate

No but I mean literally what did homie do, I do not think accidently criting someone is worth punishment when they're healed like 3.1s later either.

I'm curious as to what the actual ban is for because I've not understood it. Is it because he has a history?

Can someone genuienly explain this to me in monkey terms because I feel retarded

He used to be a much worse HoS player and built up a lot of notes, each of which he has learned from and improved after every single time, but he is still being held to his worst just because he has those notes, while admins try to say "notes might be punishments, but it's not that big of a deal"

It's very telling that I have LITERALLY not seen a single Manuel Player speak out in favour of this ban, especially after the massive outpour of everyone being in favour of Sorrel's, but apparently the Admin Metaclub is all very in favour of keeping this one.

I do not think that "nobody wants this" is necessarily a good metric for judging bans, it isn't one I certainly use.

But when I look at this I see behaviour that's like, totally ok? Homie doesn't seem to have done anything bad but maybe a manuelmin will sweep in and explain to me what's wrong here

[Sightld2]

It's a good idea. lets do away with notes entirely and administrate based on popularity contests.

[kieth4]

It's a good idea. lets do away with notes entirely and administrate based on popularity contests.

U only don't want this because you're an ai player (no friends) (L)

[AsbestosSniffer]

It's a good idea. lets do away with notes entirely and administrate based on popularity contests.

Felt really fucking smug typing that out didn't you? And yet it only further reinforces my point that there's a total and complete disconnect between the playerbase and the admins right now, it's no wonder so many players have moved onto Monke recently, because with admins like you, we don't even need shitters.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

He used to be a much worse HoS player and built up a lot of notes, each of which he has learned from and improved after every single time, but he is still being held to his worst just because he has those notes, while admins try to say "notes might be punishments, but it's not that big of a deal"

It's very telling that I have LITERALLY not seen a single Manuel Player speak out in favour of this ban, especially after the massive outpour of everyone being in favour of Sorrel's, but apparently the Admin Metaclub is all very in favour of keeping this one.

I do not think that "nobody wants this" is necessarily a good metric for judging bans, it isn't one I certainly use.

But when I look at this I see behaviour that's like, totally ok? Homie doesn't seem to have done anything bad but maybe a manuelmin will sweep in and explain to me what's wrong here

Oh don't get me wrong, that's not what I meant and Sight even knows that.

The point is that this entire ban's premise is "Jeff is a bad Security player and people are sick of it". So if the entire server is coming out and going "Actually he's fucking great, he's the best HoS player we could hope for" then it's very clear that's not true. If it's being evaluated on Reputation and Health of the Server, rather than any actual specific rulebreak, then I think The Community/The Server's opinion matters quite a lot, in fact.

But certain banbots in this thread don't care about that. And they really don't like getting pie on their face.

[kieth4]

He used to be a much worse HoS player and built up a lot of notes, each of which he has learned from and improved after every single time, but he is still being held to his worst just because he has those notes, while admins try to say "notes might be punishments, but it's not that big of a deal"

It's very telling that I have LITERALLY not seen a single Manuel Player speak out in favour of this ban, especially after the massive outpour of everyone being in favour of Sorrel's, but apparently the Admin Metaclub is all very in favour of keeping this one.

I do not think that "nobody wants this" is necessarily a good metric for judging bans, it isn't one I certainly use.

But when I look at this I see behaviour that's like, totally ok? Homie doesn't seem to have done anything bad but maybe a manuelmin will sweep in and explain to me what's wrong here

Oh don't get me wrong, that's not what I meant and Sight even knows that.

The point is that this entire ban's premise is "Jeff is a bad Security player and people are sick of it". So if the entire server is coming out and going "Actually he's fucking great, he's the best HoS player we could hope for" then it's very clear that's not true. If it's being evaluated on Reputation and Health of the Server, rather than any actual specific rulebreak, then I think The Community/The Server's opinion matters quite a lot, in fact.

But certain banbots in this thread don't care about that. And they really don't like getting pie on their face.

LOL.......

It seems that, at least to me, the ban is done because of certain actions the admin saw that they did not like.

I personally cannot identify the actions as bad (but I'm a 990 hr hos main so I'm kinda biased)

I'm going to wait for someone to identify the actual issues to me but ATM I'm a #freejeff gang.

[RedBaronFlyer]

The issue here isn't flat powergaming, it's edging our standards for what we consider good security play on MRP consistently, with a highly aggressive and efficient playstyle not always taking into account the intent of the MRP servers to make a slower paced round, which in antagonists and crew aren't as pressured to focus on mechanics in order to create an interesting round.

In my experience this only goes one way. Antags can be absolutely sweaty tryhards minmaxing everything, wordlessly murdering and the like and it's okay, but if security doesn't play like mentally impared mall cops who's purpose is solely to die to antags, then they get the hammer. The thing is Jeff doesn't even tryhard security much, it's been a long while since I've felt him minmax security. He used to be a sweaty seccie boy but he's straightened out a bunch and loosened up. I feel like there's a big difference between actually doing your job and doing all the metastrats to minmax security.

The two places where I barely trust admins in decision making regarding policy/bans/notes are AI and security because most have never played either role for any period of time, or they become so desensitized to having way more information than most players that they crucify someone if they make a fucky wucky because said person misread the situation and acted on incomplete information. I know this isn't quite one of those cases but the permajobban is basically justifying it based on notes that reek of the prior mentioned thing.

also lol to the claim of MRP having a focus on slower paced rounds just no

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Wow, that note is aggressively misleading even given the context of the banning admin's arguments in the appeal.

[DATAxPUNGED]

I fail to see what Jeff did wrong here? Like, Lorwp himself says that the ban was because of his note history, this situation was NOT powergaming in any way, shape, or form, and wouldn't have been even a note if it was done by anyone else.

I honestly dread seeing Jeff as a HoS sometimes, but he's a good pal when playing with him, and also he's good at what he does, that's not something you can ban someone for.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

My technical question is: How is it possible that Jaiden critted the lawyer (at 42 hp) with two rounds of rubbershot (15 brute maximum each if all pellets connect)?

You can actually see in the posted logs that the lawyer when he is "critted and dying of oxygen loss" has 10hp remaining, and his HP is completely static. (aka the CPR is not removing the oxygen damage he would have recieved from 13 seconds of being in critical taking oxyloss)

[Redbert]

I strongly support Jeff here, this is wild.
Lawyer (assuming they were the one that ahelped) should get a slap for ban bait.

[TypicalRig]

Maybe I'm nitpicking but what the hell was up with "we're just tired of your shit at this point" from lorwp? The ticket was totally civil up until then and seemed unwarranted. Frustrated at Jeff's playstyle or not, what did he do in that interaction to deserve that?

Rushing armory shotguns and unloading the damage doing shotgun on a lawyer is cringe as hell already on LRP, but probably not allowed on MRP under the (unenforced) rule 12. You've got stuns that don't do damage, use them. I don't really care about the note otherwise.

..also can we get an admin policy where if they go "adminbus/asay is saying..." or any variation of that in a ticket that it immediately becomes relevant to the appeal and needs to be disclosed? There seems to be this weird admin meta where they try to get players to pre-emptively back off by making it seem like everyone is against them by writing vague comments like this in tickets. If it's relevant enough for you to use it as justification for your actions, then disclose it. If you can't, why the hell mention it at all?

[RedBaronFlyer]

..also can we get an admin policy where if they go "adminbus/asay is saying..." or any variation of that in a ticket that it immediately becomes relevant to the appeal and needs to be disclosed? There seems to be this weird admin meta where they try to get players to pre-emptively back off by making it seem like everyone is against them by writing vague comments like this in tickets. If it's relevant enough for you to use it as justification for your actions, then disclose it. If you can't, why the hell mention it at all?

Yeah that part bugged me the most. There is no reason to say that. It reminds me of when detectives/cops don't actually have anything on someone (innocent or not) so they start saying shit like "we got footage of you doing it and three eyewitnesses"


"The adminbus is saying..."
"May I see it?"
"No."

[Bmon]

How did I go from 2020-2021 as a very notorious Manuel Sec/HoS main and occur 0 notes yet Jeff can rack up notes while maintaining a better public image than me?

Honestly not sure if it has something to do with a culture shift on Manuel or me passing all the speech level checks when dealing with admins, I certainly was bwoinked a lot back then!

[Jezzared]

Rushing armory shotguns and unloading the damage doing shotgun on a lawyer is cringe as hell already on LRP, but probably not allowed on MRP under the (unenforced) rule 12. You've got stuns that don't do damage, use them. I don't really care about the note otherwise.

I agree with most of the rest of your sentiment, but also, HoS gets a shotgun in his locker these days, so he didn't rush anything.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Rushing armory shotguns and unloading the damage doing shotgun on a lawyer is cringe as hell already on LRP, but probably not allowed on MRP under the (unenforced) rule 12. You've got stuns that don't do damage, use them. I don't really care about the note otherwise.

I'd agree if he actually unloaded, but I don't think a doubletap (the literal minimum to stamcrit with it) is that bad, because otherwise when are they supposed to be used at all?

[Sightld2]

It's a good idea. lets do away with notes entirely and administrate based on popularity contests.

Felt really fucking smug typing that out didn't you? And yet it only further reinforces my point that there's a total and complete disconnect between the playerbase and the admins right now, it's no wonder so many players have moved onto Monke recently, because with admins like you, we don't even need shitters.

Ok, it was dumb of me to say it like that. Let me try again.

I don't like that we're effectively arguing against the point of notes existing by satirizing what I've said down to: "Yes they are punishment but they're not that bad." What do you expect notes to actually do then?

If your argument is that "Jeff has grown a lot since those notes were placed", then please, that is a much stronger argument than "He got punished because he had notes grrr."

Maybe we should critically be looking at how long ago those notes were placed, the time in between them, how his gameplay has improved. Maybe that wasn't done here. Maybe it was but was still too harsh. Those are all legitimate and respectable takes compared to "ok now the admins are admitting they ARE a punishment..." Like, that's three steps behind where instead you could be so close to making a good point.

And I sincerely don't like the notion that the ban is automatically invalid because people showed up in this thread to defend him. I think it's really good that he's made this many people feel that way, but Kieth4 is right that that's not an important metric.

Oh don't get me wrong, that's not what I meant and Sight even knows that.

It's true. You oversimplified something I said (twice) and so I oversimplified something you said. Which was petty of me. Sorry.