The BRAWLENING: Thoughts and Retrospectives

[DrAmazing343]

This probably would go better in some GitHub goon’s review cave but I’m a player and I want to talk to you guys so I’m putting it here.

What’s everyone’s thoughts on The Brawlening now that we’ve all had time to more or less get acquainted with it? Do you think it’s shaken up combat in a meaningful way, or is it simply a nice addition to systems? Do you hate it? If so, what GIVES?

I think The Brawlening fucking ownzones big time and I had no idea just how much I missed it until I played some downstreams that didn’t have it. A lot of the shit makes sense, but more importantly, it allows for decent tech and shakeups to normal matches where in a straight click battle you’d get your ass handed to you.

I don’t think it’s overpowered or has done too much crazy shit for me, but it’s fun, and I love to abuse it to become a bare knuckle boxing legend.

Tl;dr the brawlening owns

[kinnebian]

i think its too easy to abuse and fucking sucks for limiting viable melee options

[kinnebian]

source: the recent toolbox tourny, where some teams would just not use toolboxes because its meta to only use melee if you cant kill in 2 hits or less

the first person to get their rng knockdown just wins the fight

[DrAmazing343]

Unarmed may now be a bit more powerful than it has to be for balance, but I also think it adds depth more than unbalancing anything too hard. RNG knockdown via blunt weapon was in the game before, it’s just been expanded upon here. Personally, the sort of “meta” of shoves/melee with open hand into wailing on them with your mainhand melee weapon is far more interesting than simply whoever has a real weapon wins.

I wouldn’t be opposed to further expansions and additions/tweaks to the system, however, I just want cool melee options to not be locked behind antag (scarp/CQC) because that limits a lot of kickass stories and gameplay as a crewmate.

[TheRex9001]

I don't love it, it really weakened gear and made fights a lot more rng based. I now see lings lose in melee against unarmed people just because of knockdowns and hardstuns and I don't like it. The RNG shouldn't be expanded on in combat imo, and the RNG aspects of combat should be more based around other things like what your opponent has rather than stuff like knockdown chances and block chances.

[kinnebian]

Unarmed may now be a bit more powerful than it has to be for balance, but I also think it adds depth more than unbalancing anything too hard. RNG knockdown via blunt weapon was in the game before, it’s just been expanded upon here. Personally, the sort of “meta” of shoves/melee with open hand into wailing on them with your mainhand melee weapon is far more interesting than simply whoever has a real weapon wins.

I wouldn’t be opposed to further expansions and additions/tweaks to the system, however, I just want cool melee options to not be locked behind antag (scarp/CQC) because that limits a lot of kickass stories and gameplay as a crewmate.

i think the opposite, it takes away a lot of combat depth in favour of just a very rng centric system
powerful melee absolutely should be locked behind antags or higher security things, the pure fact that you can win a 1v1 against an armored ling with a blade just because every crewmembers knows cq-rng is absurd

[britgrenadier1]

huge skill issue to anyone who loses in melee to unarmed people TBQH. High damage weapons are still king, the only difference now is that unarmed people actually have a fighting chance if they know the combos well. Personally I love it, it kicks ass

[DrAmazing343]

I feel like it really is a skill issue to lose to pure unarmed in a 1v1 as even normal; your weapon has bleed and insane brute damage, you have other skills, and if you get robusted like this, you were likely to be Maint-Fu'd before the changes.

I don't like to call skill issue often, but if we're going to make arguments against the balance disruption of the Brawlening, this ain't the best example.

i think the opposite, it takes away a lot of combat depth in favour of just a very rng centric system

This alone is a far better argument. I'd like to see it based on doing combat moves on thresholds of stam damage, maybe? I.e. a shove on <30% stam would be a knockdown?

RNG is not fun to lose against, but it's really fun to win with. As bullshit as it is, I won't lie and say that it hasn't made some fantastic fucking moments for me when it goes in my favor.

[DrAmazing343]

I don't love it, it really weakened gear and made fights a lot more rng based.

I also want to say that part of the whole idea was to "weaken gear" a bit. In the original PR, the author had this to say on the matter:

Paying attention to damage dealt and thinking intelligently about how you apply combinations of effects allows even someone on the significant back foot an opportunity for a comeback if they know what they're doing against even armed opponents.

I don't know if a whole lot of people "think intelligently" during their unarmed melee combat, but part of the purpose was to allow greater ability of unarmed combatants to comeback against armed foes. I like that a lot.

[TheRex9001]

I don't love it, it really weakened gear and made fights a lot more rng based.

I also want to say that part of the whole idea was to "weaken gear" a bit. In the original PR, the author had this to say on the matter:

Paying attention to damage dealt and thinking intelligently about how you apply combinations of effects allows even someone on the significant back foot an opportunity for a comeback if they know what they're doing against even armed opponents.

I don't know if a whole lot of people "think intelligently" during their unarmed melee combat, but part of the purpose was to allow greater ability of unarmed combatants to comeback against armed foes. I like that a lot.

Its not a comeback against armed foes, its just better. You can now consider fists better than most gear which really sucks because part of the fun (to me) was the improvisation, now I know that if I just have my fists I can most likely beat a full changeling in combat because of knockdowns and wall shove stuns. Gear SHOULD matter because its what our antagonists are based on (mostly) and exchanging some people having batons or good gear to everyone having an RNG baton was a downgrade in my opinion. There wasnt a lack of gear because most things around the station could be useful in combat (like hitting someone with an oxygen tank) instead you now shove and punch people for the knockdown and that whole aspect of combat goes out the window. This does not make you "think intelligently" it makes you play XCOM with a 25% chance to instantly win a fight.

[Timonk]

YOU THINK YOU CAN BEAT ME WITH YOUR WEAK ASS ARM BLADE? NOT AS LONG AS I HAVE MY FISTS YOU IDIOT!

[Timonk]

for reference the rounds i did play since then i noticed nothing

[DrAmazing343]

-prior quotes snip-

-my own goddamn snip-

Its not a comeback against armed foes, its just better. You can now consider fists better than most gear which really sucks because part of the fun (to me) was the improvisation, now I know that if I just have my fists I can most likely beat a full changeling in combat because of knockdowns and wall shove stuns. Gear SHOULD matter because its what our antagonists are based on (mostly) and exchanging some people having batons or good gear to everyone having an RNG baton was a downgrade in my opinion. There wasnt a lack of gear because most things around the station could be useful in combat (like hitting someone with an oxygen tank) instead you now shove and punch people for the knockdown and that whole aspect of combat goes out the window. This does not make you "think intelligently" it makes you play XCOM with a 25% chance to instantly win a fight.

It sounds like you're equating gear being weakened to gear now having no value; I don't think this is XCOM 25% chance to instantly win fight tier, at all. Gear that did matter before (armor, batons, guns, weapons) still do matter quite a bit, but the playing field's come slightly closer to even. As I said before, if lings are being robusted by an unarmed person, this is something the ling needs to work on, as they still have a SIGNIFICANT gear advantage over anyone normal person by their innate kit. I have never seen this happen in the >100 hours I've played since The Brawlening, so it's kind of odd that that's the continued example.

Improvised combat is still quite viable and still deals better damage than the fists, so in my opinion it's more of a change in order of operations/flow of combat than an outright impossibility to use any gear at all. A tank will still concuss the shit out of someone if applied to skull repeatedly, it's just going to be useful to try and land a stun to help guarantee that. You never are forced to use fists unless you have literally nothing else better; and I believe that there's still plenty better than fists, it's just that there's another tool in the arsenal.

If you could supply clips or something of these ling fights, by the way, I'd appreciate it. That sounds fucking hilarious and I'd love to see it.

[Striders13]

I think rng combat is good cause it gives noobs a chance at owning pros

[DrAmazing343]

From a game design perspective, I think it's nasty and evil, but SS13 is by nature an asymetrical and random game. Sometimes RNG is okay, and noobs owning pros makes for a good story. Maybe this but literally.

[kieth4]

Really stupid and abusable but that's why I like it, some ERT guy rushed me so I got the rng knockdown stole his gun and stole his loot. It's insanely unbalanced and I hope it does not get fixed so I can continue abusing it. Seeing all the high hour players just use it 24/7. Stealing batons from sec has never been easier. Hell, I even managed to get a hit on a guy with a claymore and steal it before he could kill me.

[TheWolfbringer]

Really unbalanced imo, it's a stun meta buff and that's crazy. Fists don't care about riot armor or a nukie hardsuit because they'll just stun through those anyway. Wallshove grab combos got a giga buff because of it. The fact that the toolbox tournament almost looked like a fistfight tournament really says it all. Should be reverted because it is ass.

[dendydoom]

i like the changes to shovies and resisting grabbies because it makes fistfights more interesting and adds an actual use case for getting into a low stakes brawl rather than just immediately jumping to the most lethal weapon you have on hand for any and every altercation but the ignoring armour stuff is really really weird. prep is and always has been a huge part of the game - rng should be a factor to make things interesting, but it should not be the thing that decides fights alone.

the parts that make fighting more strategic and less about keeping your rotation up i enjoy because my ping is generally bad and if winning is based on pressing a key at exactly x amount of seconds after the last then i'm likely gonna mistime or drop inputs. but more thoughtful fights that don't rely on a set pattern like i'm stuck in a blockstring on a fighting game with bad netcode is a welcome change.

[TheLoLSwat]

I have erected a golden statue of a DRAGNET in my front lawn for how much it bails me out of losing to rng monkeys (referring to players not the cute little animals)

[Indie-ana Jones]

A basic makeshift weapon should be more viable than your bare hands. This is currently not the case.

[DrAmazing343]

The current case is that the most basic makeshift weapon is best used in tandem with your bare hands, and that that strategy is viable against lots of lower-level threats is to the benefit of The Brawlening, not a black stain against it.

I think it's fucking badass that your bare hands and a chair let you better fight seccies and antags alike, and think it adds depth to the game as a whole with the idea that anyone could robust with their bare hands. Is it odd in a realism sense that a random-ass assistant can bring down a trained corporate paramilitary force with their hands? No. But, as I've argued in the past, is it not just as unrealistic for a clown to do the same thing with a peel and pies? SS13 is not necessarily about inherent realism and balance, it's wacky as shit with very in-depth and realistic mechanics drizzled all over.

This is just another thing to make for good stories, despite being a bit unrealistic, and I like it a lot.

[kinnebian]

paranoia is dead and we killed it
im moving on to another server

[Itseasytosee2me]

Its dope, now we just have to expand the system to all the other weapons.

[Itseasytosee2me]

Oh and add RPG stats and a dice rolling system. D18 or 3d6 would both work for our setting.

[RedBaronFlyer]

I don't get into combat often and I'm one of those boring Manuel players that only gears up when stuff goes south (except for a crowbar), I've felt like I've got a better shot of getting away vs. before.

[TheBibleMelts]

it's cool, but I don't think it's good for the game.

[kinnebian]

I think it's fucking badass that your bare hands and a chair let you better fight seccies and antags alike, and think it adds depth to the game as a whole with the idea that anyone could robust with their bare hands. Is it odd in a realism sense that a random-ass assistant can bring down a trained corporate paramilitary force with their hands? No. But, as I've argued in the past, is it not just as unrealistic for a clown to do the same thing with a peel and pies? SS13 is not necessarily about inherent realism and balance, it's wacky as shit with very in-depth and realistic mechanics drizzled all over.

but cant you see how everyone being john wick can slightly ruin the "oh fuck" moments and massively decrease paranoia, or just eliminate any reason to be afraid of antags that dont have a one down? it goes completely against the game thematically and mechanically

[kinnebian]

if youre a clown and you escape the antag by juking and slipping them, you outplayed them mechanically and feel rewarded; its thrilling! you just absolutely clowned on them!
now if youre an assistant and you escape the antag by just, rng and beating them to death, did you outplay them? well no, you got lucky; thats it. there wasnt any skill beyond punching and then shoving and punching and then shoving

[mrmelbert]

I'm confused, we've always had RNG knockdowns. What's different?

[kinnebian]

I'm confused, we've always had RNG knockdowns. What's different?

theyre a lot more consistent and a lot easier to do; before, it was when you punched in the head a very rare chance for a knockdown
now, its a 50/50 when you punch then shove and when you knock someone down, the chance for it is so high that its a perma-stun and guaranteed death for the knocked down party

[mrmelbert]

Time really is a flat circle if we re-added disarm stun meta

[DrAmazing343]

I feel like a lot of the things folks are commiserating over here could be addressed with a numbers tweak or a rework of the PR removing the RNG factors in favor of some other more consistent system entirely. Personally, I'd like to see how a thresholds of stamina damage+shove = knockdown sort of system would work. Like, say, 20% stamina and shoved would lead to a knockdown like a punch would with current system? It'll be interesting to see where we go from here, as long as we don't throw away the rest of the good the PR did. I like it a lot.

[Timonk]

Time really is a flat circle if we re-added disarm stun meta

I know right? We went from a lot of instant stuns including unarmed to basically no instant stuns except cult hand back to instant stun in the base kit

"Tasers" when

[Jacquerel]

If I'm reading the PR right, there actually isn't an "increased chance for an RNG knockdown" here and it already IS based on the stamina they have left
Shoving someone removes the chance that your punch will just literally do nothing, as far as I can tell

The original check for the knockdown was:
if((target.stat != DEAD) && damage >= attacking_bodypart.unarmed_stun_threshold)

Now it is:
if((target.stat != DEAD) && prob(limb_accuracy) || (target.stat != DEAD) && off_balance && (target.getStaminaLoss() + user.getBruteLoss()) >= 40)

The first half is the previous check rewritten, the second half is "if you have been shoved and have a combined stamina and brute loss above 40"
Where the RNG comes in is that punch damage is pretty variable so when you'll actually deal enough damage to get over that threshold is fairly random, plus the old rng knockdown is still present

At least provided that this code works as expected and that I am reading it right
We could mess around with removing the RNG knockback entirely if people want, not until February though and it isn't new

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Its not a comeback against armed foes, its just better. You can now consider fists better than most gear which really sucks because part of the fun (to me) was the improvisation, now I know that if I just have my fists I can most likely beat a full changeling in combat because of knockdowns and wall shove stuns. Gear SHOULD matter because its what our antagonists are based on (mostly) and exchanging some people having batons or good gear to everyone having an RNG baton was a downgrade in my opinion. There wasnt a lack of gear because most things around the station could be useful in combat (like hitting someone with an oxygen tank) instead you now shove and punch people for the knockdown and that whole aspect of combat goes out the window. This does not make you "think intelligently" it makes you play XCOM with a 25% chance to instantly win a fight.

Speaking as someone who has barely played since this was merged, I'm going to go out and say it just sounds like a certified skill issue.

Why doesn't the full changeling use the same technique against you? If the meta is "use your unarmed to get the RNG stun and then kill", surely the changeling can do that, too.

[TheRex9001]

The changeling can do so, but you wouldnt expect fiats to beat out armblade. We are just back to the damn disarm stun meta, I dont want everyone to have a stunbaton.

[Jacquerel]

Further clarification about mechanics: it's a knockdown, not a stun
Being floored doesn't disarm changelings (whose weapons are glued to their hands) nor (I believe) stop them from attacking

[kinnebian]

Further clarification about mechanics: it's a knockdown, not a stun
Being floored doesn't disarm changelings (whose weapons are glued to their hands) nor (I believe) stop them from attacking

can you try playing the game with these changes please

[TheRex9001]

Further clarification about mechanics: it's a knockdown, not a stun
Being floored doesn't disarm changelings (whose weapons are glued to their hands) nor (I believe) stop them from attacking

Being knocked down is major, and allows for wall shoves/aggro grabs to be easier pulled off. I think the brawlening sucks because the improvised gear was part of the fun but now your hands are so strong that most of it goes out the window. Its not good for new players, and its very abusable for older players and just leads to shitty situations. I think its a mistake to make unarmed combat as strong as it is currently.

[kieth4]

Further clarification about mechanics: it's a knockdown, not a stun
Being floored doesn't disarm changelings (whose weapons are glued to their hands) nor (I believe) stop them from attacking

Being knocked down is pretty much gg

Do u play the same game as me bro wtaf

[Jacquerel]

Further clarification about mechanics: it's a knockdown, not a stun
Being floored doesn't disarm changelings (whose weapons are glued to their hands) nor (I believe) stop them from attacking

Being knocked down is pretty much gg

Do u play the same game as me bro wtaf

I didn't say being knocked down is a good thing I said it's not a stun, they're different effects
Like they're both bad but it's stupid to keep saying the wrong one

I've not said anything in this topic about whether I like the changes, I'm explaining how they actually work because people are saying a lot of things which are based on guesswork and vague approximation

[Itseasytosee2me]

Knockdown didn't always disarm, maybe reverting to that would be a good idea. The big slow + vulnerable to kicks and disarms is already pretty crippling.

[kieth4]

Further clarification about mechanics: it's a knockdown, not a stun
Being floored doesn't disarm changelings (whose weapons are glued to their hands) nor (I believe) stop them from attacking

Being knocked down is pretty much gg

Do u play the same game as me bro wtaf

I didn't say being knocked down is a good thing I said it's not a stun, they're different effects
Like they're both bad but it's stupid to keep saying the wrong one

I've not said anything in this topic about whether I like the changes, I'm explaining how they actually work because people are saying a lot of things which are based on guesswork and vague approximation

People are calling it a stun because the moment you hit the ground it's a 99.9% you get pushed and stunned. Then from that stun you will not recover. The things people are saying are not based on "guesswork and vague approximation" they're based on how the combat works in practice. Going "technically it's not a stun" sucks because it completely dismisses the combo that's the issue. If it was a knockdown with 0 way to stun people wouldn't care as much

[Jacquerel]

The things being said in this topic are based on guesswork, literally, because people are talking about the addition of an RNG stun
There has been no new addition of an RNG knockdown, and the knockdown isn't a stun
The addition in the Brawlening PR which results in a knockdown is deterministically based on your actions and the targets current health and stamina, which is something people have suggested should be added to it as a change (it already functions that way)

What people are actually experiencing is the fact that this mechanic was added in addition to the previously existing RNG knockdown, meaning that the incidence rate of knockdowns has increased (now it can happen randomly as before, or after reaching a certain threshold)

I am telling people how the mechanic works because if they are just talking about how they think it works and are wrong, their feedback is often not very useful
By all means if you'd prefer to write a feedback topic about changes which aren't in the game then I will leave you to it but that probably won't result in any game changes (though as you personally don't want any, I guess that works out)

[kieth4]

The things being said in this topic are based on guesswork, literally, because people are talking about the addition of an RNG stun
There has been no new addition of an RNG knockdown, and the knockdown isn't a stun
The addition in the Brawlening PR which results in a knockdown is deterministically based on your actions and the targets current health and stamina, which is something people have suggested should be added to it as a change (it already functions that way)

What people are actually experiencing is the fact that this mechanic was added in addition to the previously existing RNG knockdown, meaning that the incidence rate of knockdowns has increased (now it can happen randomly as before, or after reaching a certain threshold)

By all means if you'd prefer to write a feedback topic about changes which aren't in the game then I will leave you to it but that probably won't result in any game changes (though as you personally don't want any, I guess that works out)

Shoving someone and punching them is an rng knockdown. The most meta combo is one shove then punch and you're literally rolling the dice on how many hits it'll take until knockdown. In the past it was INCREDIBLY rare to knockdown now you can do it relatively easy.

You yourself state that the rng aspect is the punch damage (for triggering the knockdown) so it feels very dishonest to say that there is no new rng knockdown mechanic when the interaction wasn't in the game before in its current itteration and quite literally relies on rng (as most people in this thread are discussing shoving and punching)

People are calling the knockdown a stun because you knock someone down and shove them- something you can do basically 99.9% of the time which leads to them being stunned. Then, it's over. You just hit and grab them and they literally cannot escape. This is directly because of the rng knockdown.

Could you highlight the people who are straight up wrong about it so I know who you are referring to?

[Jonathan Gupta]

you started this thread because you ate shit from me and IT SHOWS

[saprasam]

i want spears to just instantly kill people in order to balance out this change

[TheRex9001]

To clarify it is a knockdown but like kieth said its easy to shove into a stun that I just use the two words with the same meaning in this situation. I think its lame and really unhealthy for the game, all it leads to is more reliance on rng (an aspect of combat that should ideally be more minimized) is it kinda cool? Sure. Is it good for the game? Not at all. Stuns arent the most fun thing in the world and making it this easy to pull off in the game has killed most tension because a lot of the human threats can be defeated with bare hands.

[vect0r]

It’s alright but it will be great once we have that anomaly implant.

[Jacquerel]

This alone is a far better argument. I'd like to see it based on doing combat moves on thresholds of stam damage, maybe? I.e. a shove on <30% stam would be a knockdown?

its a 50/50 when you punch then shove and when you knock someone down, the chance for it is so high that its a perma-stun and guaranteed death for the knocked down party

I feel like a lot of the things folks are commiserating over here could be addressed with a numbers tweak or a rework of the PR removing the RNG factors in favor of some other more consistent system entirely. Personally, I'd like to see how a thresholds of stamina damage+shove = knockdown sort of system would work. Like, say, 20% stamina and shoved would lead to a knockdown like a punch would with current system? It'll be interesting to see where we go from here, as long as we don't throw away the rest of the good the PR did. I like it a lot.

These are posts which prompted me to explain the actual mechanics behind what is going on, they largely seem to be based on an assumption that there is some kind of rng knockdown occuring(there is, but it's the old one we have always had) and that you would be introducing a change by making it based on stamina thesholds (you would not, that is how it works already).

I'll be honest I am also just like, super onfused about the tone this exchange is taking, the defensiveness when I am telling people how the code works is real weird.
I am legit not trying to like "get" anyone here, I am explaining how the code works because it's a combination of not obvious, not explained in game, and not even particularly easy to tell why anything is happening in the game (even if you have a 24/7 medhud it doesnt show the opponent's stamina level).
It would be almost entirely impossible to tell why anything that this change has introduced is happening just by punching someone repeatedly because the information is not displayed to you, even less so in a hectic actual-round scenario.

No idea why this has turned into an interrogation but I guess I forgot that Player's Club is a PvP enabled zone and so I guess there's a baseline assumption that any post must be an attempt to ridicule someone in some way