you must ICly do nothing peanut thread

[iwishforducks]

Bottom post of the previous page:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=35858

what were they supposed to do, OOCly check if their IC perceptions were correct?

and also something about the captain not being part of sec, i guess.

[kinnebian]

We should start taking bets as to how bmon is going to respond to this appeal thread.

Anyone with adminbus access is not allowed to bet, I also ask that you don't spoil it kthx.

For me it comes down to two options. Bmon sees the err in their ways and overturns the note themselves or they double down and it has to be overturned by headmins (speaking of which if that's after the election results is it decided on by like 6 people? LOL)

My money's on the first option.

God weeps.

What the fuck is that? What is that???? Oh God I feel awful looking at this... is this how striders feels when someone posts an image of the wet owl??? Ugh

its a doggy

[conrad]

I also ask that you don't spoil it kthx.

Thank you kindly for asking me to not break conduct I was about ready to hm mhm

Oh yeah on topic, forgot if I replied, remove note pls

[BonChoi]

I also ask that you don't spoil it kthx.

Thank you kindly for asking me to not break conduct I was about ready to hm mhm

Oh yeah on topic, forgot if I replied, remove note pls

People have alluded to what goes down in adminbus before and that's more of what I was talking about.

[iwishforducks]

leaks from the adminbus (refresh if it doesn't work)

Spoiler:

[Nabski]

What should president do if there is a threat to the White House?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Force_One_(film)

Do his best to reenact this classic film

[iwishforducks]

bruh

[Timberpoes]

Looks like this one will probably (hopefully??????) be a headmin overturn.

The Captain's lane is the entire station. RPR4 pretty much doesn't apply to them. Instead, it's RPR3 with Server Rules 5 and 1.

Bmon's reasoning for upholding:

From what I saw of the fight which I first hand witnessed it was you(captain), the CE, and a security officer who first responded to the AI's callout that the heretic was in engineering. The CE has more of an excuse to kick the heretics ass since this happened in his department, the security officer is security, and you the captain... I don't understand why you were there. The CE's life isn't really in danger when you're rushing into combat side by side with them, that enough should have been clear to you.

Would be my entire reason for overturning it. Cap, CE and Sec responding to an AI callout in engineering about a heretic. That's the boss of the station, the boss of engineering and a subordinate of the boss of killing antags all responding.

That's damn good SS13 right there. Not an RPR4 break.

Not every captain has to be a Jean Luc Picard. We can have some Kirks too. As a treat. Please.

[Edit] It's basically Kirk, Scotty and a redshirt responding to an alert by the shipboard AI. This happened like 4 times an episode of the original Star Trek series. Free my man from his note.

[iwishforducks]

the optics of being a very well known antag player and then applying note(s) on captains for "validhunting" is insane, btw.

[DaBoss]

mfw I'm a navy captain and some psychopath with a knife cut up the alcoholic head engineer and is fucking up the ship's engine room but its a sin to go and stop him

[Timonk]

mfw I'm a navy captain and some psychopath with a knife cut up the alcoholic head engineer and is fucking up the ship's engine room but its a sin to go and stop him

bro even the navy captain in the dead island riptide tutorial doesnt even fight the zombies and just turns into a special infected instead

[Timonk]

and again, there was a fully staffed security team to deal with this

[DaBoss]

guy sounds like a chump i would have just killed all the zombies

[britgrenadier1]

the optics of being a very well known antag player and then applying note(s) on captains for "validhunting" is insane, btw.

This is, generally, the reason why people tend to dislike him. He's a great admin, funny person, but coddles antags a lot in tickets. Probably an understandable over adjustment from their own antag rounds where they get killed by various crewmembers after cremating security.

[kinnebian]

guess its option 2

[NecromancerAnne]

Less than keen on seeing this note be maintained, because I really don't want to set up confusing precedents for captains, who otherwise should possess the greatest amount of autonomy amongst the crew. As well as noting players for not having fucking admin level metaknowledge, good grief.

[Timberpoes]

I do not want to live in a universe where tgstation MRP doesn't allow Captain Kirk to fight alongside redshirts and Scotty.

[conrad]

I do not want to live in a universe where tgstation MRP doesn't allow Captain Kirk to fight alongside redshirts and Scotty.

Literally my take on this.

[BonChoi]

guess its option 2

why bmon

just take the L fam

[Archie700]

There are many situations where the captain could step in and fill a void which is left by a lack of security, but in this particular round you had a HoS, warden, detective and security officers, a good chunk of which were already chasing the one heretic you had on very calm green star shift. If you are not directly saving someones life you shouldn't get yourself involved with chasing down an antag. As soon as you saw that the heretic wasn't in the process of murdering or abducting someone you should have left it with security to deal with, security was with you at the time

It wasn't green star, it was yellow.

https://statbus.space/rounds/224825

Edit: wrong on the warden bit

[iwishforducks]

There are many situations where the captain could step in and fill a void which is left by a lack of security, but in this particular round you had a HoS, warden, detective and security officers, a good chunk of which were already chasing the one heretic you had on very calm green star shift. If you are not directly saving someones life you shouldn't get yourself involved with chasing down an antag. As soon as you saw that the heretic wasn't in the process of murdering or abducting someone you should have left it with security to deal with, security was with you at the time

For one, there was no warden. And it wasn't green star, it was yellow.

https://statbus.space/rounds/224825

Post this on the ban appeal per clarification

[Constellado]

Yeah I would like to see this overturned.

The only time a captain shouldn't be allowed to do stuff in another department is if they are actively stopping others from doing work because he is taking over. That's a shitty captain. Its the same with any head of staff though.
If you are a head of staff and you are stopping/taking over projects of your subordinates you need a good reason for it in my opinion.

The one time I was not happy was when a cap went into Atmos to do a "project". I was fine with it till he used the entire station's waste line as a burn pipe. That was very annoying to fix. But that breaks other rules than the stay in your lane rule, and those should be the ones cited instead.

The only time I'd bwoink the cap here is if one of the sec officers complained, but not the heretic.

Tldr all departments is the captain's lane but he shouldn't be stepping over other people's work.

[Archie700]

I'm sorry, but I have a lot of issues with bmon's response.

So the main reason this note was placed is because when we first spoke you seemed to be under the belief that the captain falls under security and therefore is roleplay rule 4 exempt(you can see this in the ticket). That is not true, the captain is subject to RPR 4 like any other role which is not in the security department. The note itself serves as more of a reminder that the captain isn't RPR 4 exempt.

Except there's no ruling on the fact that the captain can't go to a place where a crime is happening on their own initiative when there's an actual antagonist who tried to escape. And captain has security protections, they're able to carry out arrests with the provision that he will be retaliated if it's invalid or wrong.

There are many situations where the captain could step in and fill a void which is left by a lack of security, but in this particular round you had a HoS, warden, detective and security officers, a good chunk of which were already chasing the one heretic you had on very calm green star shift. If you are not directly saving someones life you shouldn't get yourself involved with chasing down an antag. As soon as you saw that the heretic wasn't in the process of murdering or abducting someone you should have left it with security to deal with, security was with you at the time.

For one, the fact that the CE was actively fighting with the heretic could be considered a life in danger. A CE with a baton against a heretic who has at least the stun hand and has used a knife to teleport is a equal fight, and who knows what else the heretic had as spells.

I would also say a "very calm green star shift" wasn't that calm if there was a heretic to begin with, and the "heretic wasn't in the process of murdering or abducting someone" had just been seen trying to abduct the HoP, was called out and escaped to Engineering after breaking his blade. It's also the only significant crime happening on that shift, so a Captain would definitely be at least interested in the threat.

I would even argue that a captain would be involved in the heretic hunt to begin with, since they would dealing with punishment after for someone who had tried to commit attempted kidnapping and casted some very suspicious spells.

From what I saw of the fight which I first hand witnessed it was you(captain), the CE, and a security officer who first responded to the AI's callout that the heretic was in engineering. The CE has more of an excuse to kick the heretics ass since this happened in his department, the security officer is security, and you the captain... I don't understand why you were there. The CE's life isn't really in danger when you're rushing into combat side by side with them, that enough should have been clear to you.

The notion that a CE's life isn't in danger because he caught the guy in a baton loop when the heretic could get a chance to funny hand and make the CE's life suddenly worse is unbelievable, at best. And telling the captain they should be standing there and watch once the CE stunned the heretic is also pretty foolish - if anything, a heretic that had already been called out for trying to kidnap someone with actual testimony from the would-be kidnappee and ACTUAL EVIDENCE of using magical spells to escape is someone you would assist to stun if possible, if you're already in the area.

It really feels less like an actual application of rpr 4 and more like someone not being happy the heretic lost because cap happened to be there even though heretic was pretty much exposed and losing anyway.

[DrAmazing343]

The fact that this note was UPHELD even after the insane amount of community support and evidence to the contrary against the note is making this whole thing smell DISTINCTLY of "baby's first Headmin Review" for this new team. Easy fucking slam dunk to overturn, and batshit that is isn't already gone.

I can only hope the peanutting continues in full force, as god intended.

[kieth4]

The fact that this note was UPHELD even after the insane amount of community support and evidence to the contrary against the note is making this whole thing smell DISTINCTLY of "baby's first Headmin Review" for this new team. Easy fucking slam dunk to overturn, and batshit that is isn't already gone.

I can only hope the peanutting continues in full force, as god intended.

The peanut is basically a cope hut and doesn't reallllly have too much input on the ban/note. I'm not saying I agree with it u can read my post in the peanut but it doesn't really affect the ban itself. It could be a good ban even with community cope

[DrAmazing343]

Peanuts can 100% be cope huts at times, but on the other side of the same coin, when a bunch of people call out a ban or a note as hot shit, it generally means it’s hot shit.

Another point of note here (heh) is that notes are meant as a way to track behavior or events that could be indicative or a bad-faith playstyle or rule breaks and here it really doesn’t seem like it’s doing legwork for either in a meaningful way given the majority admin consensus that this doesn’t break RPR 4 (at least, visible to me. I don’t know what happens in adminbus) and that xzero is actively attempting to clarify RPR 4 and the matter of capsec.

Both of these point to good faith and quite possibly no rule being broken at all?

All this to say, once again:
FREE MY GIRL

[kieth4]

Peanuts can 100% be cope huts at times, but on the other side of the same coin, when a bunch of people call out a ban or a note as hot shit, it generally means it’s hot shit.

Another point of note here (heh) is that notes are meant as a way to track behavior or events that could be indicative or a bad-faith playstyle or rule breaks and here it really doesn’t seem like it’s doing legwork for either in a meaningful way given the majority admin consensus that this doesn’t break RPR 4 (at least, visible to me. I don’t know what happens in adminbus) and that xzero is actively attempting to clarify RPR 4 and the matter of capsec.

Both of these point to good faith and quite possibly no rule being broken at all?

All this to say, once again:
FREE MY GIRL

Maybe, but this shouldn't really always be a metric. Peanuts are there for cope/facts that if relevant should make it into the appeal.

You're stating facts, it's awesome. I don't disagree but I think the peanut gallery is not an informative place of high iq people but the zoo full of monkies

[DrAmazing343]

naw that’s true actually it is a fucking zoo

[BonChoi]

The fact that this note was UPHELD even after the insane amount of community support and evidence to the contrary against the note is making this whole thing smell DISTINCTLY of "baby's first Headmin Review" for this new team. Easy fucking slam dunk to overturn, and batshit that is isn't already gone.

I can only hope the peanutting continues in full force, as god intended.

Call me confused but has it even been passed onto the headmins yet? I don't know why you're saying it's being upheld when there's not even really been more than one response from the original admin.

E: Not as confused anymore because I know now that you're talking about Bmon holding their ground in the appeal, but still confused on the "upheld" terminology, I thought a note or a ban would be "upheld" only if the admin denied the appeal or if the headmins were called in and they denied the appeal.

[DrAmazing343]

The fact that this note was UPHELD even after the insane amount of community support and evidence to the contrary against the note is making this whole thing smell DISTINCTLY of "baby's first Headmin Review" for this new team. Easy fucking slam dunk to overturn, and batshit that is isn't already gone.

I can only hope the peanutting continues in full force, as god intended.

Call me confused but has it even been passed onto the headmins yet? I don't know why you're saying it's being upheld when there's not even really been more than one response from the original admin.

E: Not as confused anymore because I know now that you're talking about Bmon holding their ground in the appeal, but still confused on the "upheld" terminology, I thought a note or a ban would be "upheld" only if the admin denied the appeal or if the headmins were called in and they denied the appeal.

Yeah, upheld by bmon. I’m a little bit stupid, don’t mind odd terminology, you’re probably correct.

[conrad]

Nah you're both right in every circumstance surrounding the "upheld" thing. The banning admin upholds the note/ban, i.e.: refuses to remove it, then if it goes to head admins they go through the same, except with hidden orwellian votings not even us admins have access to (up until they release their decision).

There's really no fixed nomenclature for these sorts of things, use whatever words you feel are more appropriate and you're probably in the right track.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

then if it goes to head admins they go through the same, except with hidden orwellian votings not even us admins have access to

i heard if you want to get a portenteous vote you can sacrifice a white cockrel as an offering

[BonChoi]

Bmonathan is really digging their heels in on this one holy moly

[BonChoi]

It's for reasons like this I am willing to remove the note so long as you understand the contents of it.

"If you say uncle I'll remove the note"

[PapaMichael]

It's for reasons like this I am willing to remove the note so long as you understand the contents of it.

"If you say uncle I'll remove the note"

That's a pretty uncharitable simplification.
Xzero is a consistently good Manuel player. Bmon knows this, and is trying to resolve this as amicably as possible.

I think the Captain should have the prerogative to assist security, a sentiment that seems to be pretty popular here. But the rules, as written, don't say anything about that one way or another. I think a policy thread hammering out the Captain's role on MRP might be useful here.

[iwishforducks]

this is like watching a car crash man

[Vekter]

Bmonathan is really digging their heels in on this one holy moly

Because they know they're right.

[Archie700]

Bmonathan is really digging their heels in on this one holy moly

Because they know they're right.

There is no actual precedent on captain on RSR 4 AND RSR 9.

Whether Captain can't take part in security matters if the station is not in danger has never been debated up to this point, indeed, this is literally the first time.

And when even other MRP admins disagree, this is a conflict. A conflict that can only be solved by policy discussion.

And there it is.

[iwishforducks]

Bmonathan is really digging their heels in on this one holy moly

Because they know they're right.

this is like watching a car crash straight into a brick wall and then some random ass ufo comes out of nowhere and nose dives straight into the wreckage

[Vekter]

Bmonathan is really digging their heels in on this one holy moly

Because they know they're right.

There is no actual precedent on captain on RSR 4 AND RSR 9.

Whether Captain can't take part in security matters if the station is not in danger has never been debated up to this point, indeed, this is literally the first time.

And when even other MRP admins disagree, this is a conflict. A conflict that can only be solved by policy discussion.

And there it is.

Captain is not Head of Security. Hope this helps!

E: I'll post my actual feelings on the matter in your policy thread but the tl;dr is that the most important person on the station who is probably carrying an item that can be used to destroy the station by bad actors probably shouldn't be running around hunting down people who are actively killing others when there's already a perfectly good security team.

[iwishforducks]

Captain is not Head of Security. Hope this helps!

im just stealing my reply to the policy discussion thread here:

A sea captain, ship's captain, captain, master, or shipmaster, is a high-grade licensed mariner who holds ultimate command and responsibility of a merchant vessel. The captain is responsible for the safe and efficient operation of the ship, including its seaworthiness, safety and security, cargo operations, navigation, crew management, and legal compliance, and for the persons and cargo on board.

even though this specific entry is about “sea” captains, the rank of “captain” in ss13 comes exactly from that. (starboard, aft, etc are also all terms from naval ship directions)

i think it’s pretty clear that a captain’s duties lie in security just as much as every other part of the station. with that said, some captain going around with sechuds hunting all the greys would be seen as an incompetent fool because they’re not managing engineering, medical, cargo, etc. - but that becomes an entirely separate issue; it’s no longer about security not being the captain’s lane, it’s about the captain not being fit for the job

edit: if i saw the edit i wouldnt have posted this btw. wasnt sure if u would be looking at that thread or whatever.

[Vekter]

Captain is not Head of Security. Hope this helps!

im just stealing my reply to the policy discussion thread here:

A sea captain, ship's captain, captain, master, or shipmaster, is a high-grade licensed mariner who holds ultimate command and responsibility of a merchant vessel. The captain is responsible for the safe and efficient operation of the ship, including its seaworthiness, safety and security, cargo operations, navigation, crew management, and legal compliance, and for the persons and cargo on board.

even though this specific entry is about “sea” captains, the rank of “captain” in ss13 comes exactly from that. (starboard, aft, etc are also all terms from naval ship directions)

i think it’s pretty clear that a captain’s duties lie in security just as much as every other part of the station. with that said, some captain going around with sechuds hunting all the greys would be seen as an incompetent fool because they’re not managing engineering, medical, cargo, etc. - but that becomes an entirely separate issue; it’s no longer about security not being the captain’s lane, it’s about the captain not being fit for the job

edit: if i saw the edit i wouldnt have posted this btw. wasnt sure if u would be looking at that thread or whatever.

I'm fine with you posting this here because I can be less serious in a peanut than in policy discussion.

If a sea vessel with a fully staffed security team had a stowaway, do you really think the captain should be running around with a pistol trying to kill the guy, or would the security team be handling it?

[kinnebian]

feel like those hypotheticals arent comparable to the situation that went down

[iwishforducks]

Captain is not Head of Security. Hope this helps!

im just stealing my reply to the policy discussion thread here:

A sea captain, ship's captain, captain, master, or shipmaster, is a high-grade licensed mariner who holds ultimate command and responsibility of a merchant vessel. The captain is responsible for the safe and efficient operation of the ship, including its seaworthiness, safety and security, cargo operations, navigation, crew management, and legal compliance, and for the persons and cargo on board.

even though this specific entry is about “sea” captains, the rank of “captain” in ss13 comes exactly from that. (starboard, aft, etc are also all terms from naval ship directions)

i think it’s pretty clear that a captain’s duties lie in security just as much as every other part of the station. with that said, some captain going around with sechuds hunting all the greys would be seen as an incompetent fool because they’re not managing engineering, medical, cargo, etc. - but that becomes an entirely separate issue; it’s no longer about security not being the captain’s lane, it’s about the captain not being fit for the job

edit: if i saw the edit i wouldnt have posted this btw. wasnt sure if u would be looking at that thread or whatever.

I'm fine with you posting this here because I can be less serious in a peanut than in policy discussion.

If a sea vessel with a fully staffed security team had a stowaway, do you really think the captain should be running around with a pistol trying to kill the guy, or would the security team be handling it?

no because that would be both an inappropriate security response and not something serious enough for a captain to be taking their attention away from the station.

one of the captain’s most important duties of the station is to protect the disk. this is a security role. there is no other way to cut it. they have a responsibility for the disk because they have a responsibility to protect the crew.

yes, this means that all matters of security are in their lane. they ultimately have a responsibility for all things security related. but that does not mean that going out and hunting all of the antags is a good use of their time; it would be incompetency of a captain to delegate so much of their time and energy on little fish security issues. they have a responsibility for every other department. it’s the same reason why a captain going to engineering and constructing an “Autism” project would be incompetency. a captain micromanging medical, personally denying/accepting order requests at cargo, servicing the bar, etc. are all the captain being incompetent and foregoing their other duties.

in this specific case, a heretic attacked the HoP- a high ranking command staff. the CE slurred over radio about the heretic and the AI called out the heretic in engineering. and on top of all of that, the AI saying the captain is the heretic’s target? ICly, I think a captain has all the reason to step in. command staff being attacked is no joke- a dead command staff is a dead crew.

[Archie700]

And the captain did not step in alone, they stepped in with the CE and a sec officer.

[NecromancerAnne]

Bmonathan is really digging their heels in on this one holy moly

Because they know they're right.

If by 'I'm making shit up as I go while interpreting our existing ruleset in poor faith and doing a bit of historical revisionism on the side' is right, I'm glad to be wrong, regardless of the outcome here.

For crying out loud, this is the exact kind of rules lawyering we tell our players not to engage in but on the opposite end of the discussion. Holding a player to such a ridiculous standard despite consistent and good faith explanations for their reasoning and justifications from in-game perspectives is absurd and unfair and downright hypocritical from bmon if I'm being entirely honest. This kind of 'rules first, story second' perspective is the exact same criticisms that Paradise has been held too for as long as I've been in the community. And is not approaching the way in which we utilize our rules as a means of coaching players into the story-centric mindset we would want. That is the point of the entire exercise of Manuel, is it not?

I don't fucking want Manuel's additional rules to be a bludgeon to trip players up on just because we aren't writing every edgecase down on paper, vekter, and I don't really want to work with admins who do. I'm kind of embarrassed by association that this is what we have to show for ourselves and what other admins are rallying around. If bmon is concerned about the position captains exist in with regards to security, he shouldn't be inventing policy wholesale and then having a player get lugged with the consequences.

[TheLoLSwat]

When mindstormy and scriptis gave me a troll ban for not securing the disk and I argued that putting it in the safe was securing it, a code argument was used to show that the disk wasn’t actually secure (since it was in a static position). I don’t see why we can’t use similar code arguments for captain being a member of security since they are impacted by things that only impact security

[Archie700]

When mindstormy and scriptis gave me a troll ban for not securing the disk and I argued that putting it in the safe was securing it, a code argument was used to show that the disk wasn’t actually secure (since it was in a static position). I don’t see why we can’t use similar code arguments for captain being a member of security since they are impacted by things that only impact security

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... tain.dm#L1

Code: Select all

auto_deadmin_role_flags = DEADMIN_POSITION_HEAD|DEADMIN_POSITION_SECURITY

thank feasel easel for finding it

[GPeckman]

Honestly, even if the captain isn't a member of security this note still doesn't really make much sense. Imagine you're an atmos tech, and the AI says over the radio that a heretic is attacking an engineer in engineering. You should absolutely be allowed to come to the aid of your coworker. In this case specifically, the captain knew that there was a heretic attacking someone in engineering, and heard the CE's slurred voice over the radio. They had good reason to believe the CE was under attack. And since we're already assuming that the captain isn't part of security, then their 'coworkers' kinda have to be other members of command. There isn't really a third a option there. So the captain had good reason to believe that there coworker was under attack, thus RPR4 wasn't broken.

Also, I just checked RPR4 and it's even more generous than that:

You should not act like a vigilante if a security force is present unless you have a good in-character roleplay reason to believe a global or round-ending threat exists. Restricted antags that are not automatically global or round ending threats may still become so through their actions in the shift, the stronger your reasoning the more action you can take against them.

You can always defend yourself and others from violent antagonists.

"Defending someone else from a violent antagonist" is exactly what the captain was trying to do!

[Archie700]

And even if the captain found out the CE's not in danger when she entered the room, what then? Was she supposed to stand around doing nothing as the CE fights off the heretic with his baton? Someone who had already attacked the HoP?

[britgrenadier1]

It's for reasons like this I am willing to remove the note so long as you understand the contents of it.

"If you say uncle I'll remove the note"

Either the note is right or wrong (it’s wrong btw). An admin should never essentially say “Admit that I’m right and I’ll remove the note.”

[britgrenadier1]

And even if the captain found out the CE's not in danger when she entered the room, what then? Was she supposed to stand around as the CE fights off the heretic with his baton?

Obviously you sit there and cheer