you must ICly do nothing peanut thread

[iwishforducks]

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=35858

what were they supposed to do, OOCly check if their IC perceptions were correct?

and also something about the captain not being part of sec, i guess.

[BonChoi]

What's that? I sense something... it must be another security-related note! (This time the captain was noted for doing the job of security.) METAGANG, ASSEMBLE!!!

According to RPR4, "Players are not expected to ignore antagonists during the normal course of play and may engage with antagonists who are active within their sphere." Is the Captain's sphere not the whole station, including security and engineering?

[PapaMichael]

xzero didn't mention it in the appeal, but some context was a different admin completely disagreeing with this note in the mannycord

[BonChoi]

xzero didn't mention it in the appeal, but some context was a different admin completely disagreeing with this note in the mannycord

They did

Another reason for me making this appeal is I was encouraged to by another admin (that did NOT HAVE THE ENTIRE CONTEXT) who disagreed with the idea of the Captain not being part of security as per RPR4.

[PapaMichael]

deleting my account in shame

[BonChoi]

deleting my account in shame

mission accomplished

[EmpressMaia]

captain generally shouldnt be concerncing themself with active sec work unless it is actively threatening them

[iwishforducks]

captain generally shouldnt be concerncing themself with active sec work unless it is actively threatening them

i agree, which is why i think if heads are under attack it's perfectly reasonable and IC for a captain to start to get involved

[Timonk]

Okay bmon haters hear me out, I'm about to make a conjecture
If there was a terrorist in the White House going around and attacking congress members, would you expect President Joe Biden himself to hunt him down?

[iwishforducks]

yep

[Timonk]

Then go play on the LRP White House server because he wouldn't on the MRP White House server

[BonChoi]

Okay bmon haters hear me out, I'm about to make a conjecture
If there was a terrorist in the White House going around and attacking congress members, would you expect President Joe Biden himself to hunt him down?

There is difference though, the captain literally gets a sword, a gun and wears crazy armor everywhere they go (for the most part)

Not to mention that while it's possible that this captain was an 80 year old with dementia, I highly doubt that they were.

The captain doesn't exist to be protected from the crew, they exist in part to protect the crew.

[dendydoom]

Okay bmon haters hear me out, I'm about to make a conjecture
If there was a terrorist in the White House going around and attacking congress members, would you expect President Joe Biden himself to hunt him down?

Not to mention that while it's possible that this captain was an 80 year old with dementia, I highly doubt that they were.

he's the commander in chief bro you dont know what he could do

[nianjiilical]

Okay bmon haters hear me out, I'm about to make a conjecture
If there was a terrorist in the White House going around and attacking congress members, would you expect President Joe Biden himself to hunt him down?

There is difference though, the captain literally gets a sword, a gun and wears crazy armor everywhere they go (for the most part)

Not to mention that while it's possible that this captain was an 80 year old with dementia, I highly doubt that they were.

The captain doesn't exist to be protected from the crew, they exist in part to protect the crew.

i agree, joe biden should have a sword and gun and crazy armor

[iwishforducks]

Okay bmon haters hear me out, I'm about to make a conjecture
If there was a terrorist in the White House going around and attacking congress members, would you expect President Joe Biden himself to hunt him down?

There is difference though, the captain literally gets a sword, a gun and wears crazy armor everywhere they go (for the most part)

Not to mention that while it's possible that this captain was an 80 year old with dementia, I highly doubt that they were.

The captain doesn't exist to be protected from the crew, they exist in part to protect the crew.

i agree, joe biden should have a sword and gun and crazy armor

i agree

[Medic]

snip

snip snip

i agree, joe biden should have a sword and gun and crazy armor

Joe Biden strikes me as more of a caster than a martial, he should have a staff and spellbook not a sword and armor.

[TheLoLSwat]

I think a better comparison would be if a Kings castle or a general's camp was attacked rather than the president ngl

[iwishforducks]

or like... the captain of a ship. you know. if a captain of the ship had a crewmember causing trouble for any of the command staff you bet their ass they'd be involved

[Donglesplonge]

captains weapons and armor are meant for their own personal defense, saying they get all this crazy shit is true yeah but its not meant for them to go out and kill people with its so they don't get killed themselves

[iwishforducks]

captains weapons and armor are meant for their own personal defense, saying they get all this crazy shit is true yeah but its not meant for them to go out and kill people with its so they don't get killed themselves

i agree. the captain in this situation shot two lethals before realizing that they were firing lethals, and then switched to disabler shots from there on out:

Code: Select all

09:22:16	ATTACK	Xzero314/(Clara White) (mob_3187) fired at [floor] with the laser from Supermatter Engine Room	(110, 58, 4)	Supermatter Engine Room
09:22:16	ATTACK	Xzero314/(Clara White) (mob_3187) fired at [floor] with the laser from Supermatter Engine Room	(107, 58, 4)	Supermatter Engine Room
09:22:18	ATTACK	Xzero314/(Clara White) (mob_3187) fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Supermatter Engine Room	(109, 58, 4)	Supermatter Engine Room
09:22:19	ATTACK	Xzero314/(Clara White) (mob_3187) fired at Sheepthulhu/(Rubs-With-Romerol) with the disabler beam from Supermatter Engine Room (NEWHP: 75) 	(107, 57, 4)	Supermatter Engine Room
09:22:19	ATTACK	Xzero314/(Clara White) (mob_3187) fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Supermatter Engine Room	(108, 55, 4)	Supermatter Engine Room
09:22:20	ATTACK	Xzero314/(Clara White) (mob_3187) fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Supermatter Engine Room	(109, 55, 4)	Supermatter Engine Room
09:22:21	ATTACK	Xzero314/(Clara White) (mob_3187) fired at [plating] with the disabler beam from Supermatter Engine Room	(108, 55, 4)	Supermatter Engine Room
09:22:22	ATTACK	Xzero314/(Clara White) (mob_3187) fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Supermatter Engine Room	(109, 58, 4)	Supermatter Engine Room
09:22:23	ATTACK	Xzero314/(Clara White) (mob_3187) fired at [Emitter Room] with the disabler beam from Supermatter Engine Room	(113, 58, 4)	Supermatter Engine Room
09:22:23	ATTACK	Xzero314/(Clara White) (mob_3187) shot Admiral gigatron/(John Davinski) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 90.3) 	(113, 58, 4)	Supermatter Engine Room
09:22:25	ATTACK	Xzero314/(Clara White) (mob_3187) fired at [reinforced floor] with the disabler beam from Supermatter Engine Room	(117, 58, 4)	Supermatter Engine Room
09:22:25	ATTACK	Xzero314/(Clara White) (mob_3187) shot Admiral gigatron/(John Davinski) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 90.3) 	(117, 60, 4)	Supermatter Engine Room
09:22:27	ATTACK	Xzero314/(Clara White) (mob_3187) fired at Sheepthulhu/(Rubs-With-Romerol) with the disabler beam from Supermatter Engine Room (NEWHP: 75) 	(119, 63, 4)	Supermatter Engine Room
09:22:27	ATTACK	Xzero314/(Clara White) (mob_3187) shot Sheepthulhu/(Rubs-With-Romerol) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 75) 	(119, 63, 4)	Supermatter Engine Room
09:22:27	ATTACK	Xzero314/(Clara White) (mob_3187) fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Supermatter Engine Room	(119, 63, 4)	Supermatter Engine Room
09:22:28	ATTACK	Xzero314/(Clara White) (mob_3187) shot Sheepthulhu/(Rubs-With-Romerol) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 75) 	(119, 63, 4)	Supermatter Engine Room
09:22:28	ATTACK	Xzero314/(Clara White) (mob_3187) fired at Sheepthulhu/(Rubs-With-Romerol) with the disabler beam from Supermatter Engine Room (NEWHP: 75) 	(119, 63, 4)	Supermatter Engine Room
09:22:28	ATTACK	Xzero314/(Clara White) (mob_3187) shot Sheepthulhu/(Rubs-With-Romerol) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 75) 	(119, 63, 4)	Supermatter Engine Room
09:22:29	ATTACK	Xzero314/(Clara White) (mob_3187) fired at Sheepthulhu/(Rubs-With-Romerol) with the disabler beam from Supermatter Engine Room (NEWHP: 75) 	(119, 63, 4)	Supermatter Engine Room
09:22:29	ATTACK	Xzero314/(Clara White) (mob_3187) shot Sheepthulhu/(Rubs-With-Romerol) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 75) 	(119, 63, 4)	Supermatter Engine Room

honestly idk if you were even talking about the appeal/situation itself or just the chitter chatter here on the peanut. im just having a lil fun with dumb questions

[DrAmazing343]

RPR 4 should allow Capsec IMO. It makes sense for the Captain to fill in and assist with literally anything on station unless it is already and ENTIRELY covered without any necessity for assistance; I.e. cap should not step in to a virus fix when CMO and Chemists are working the dispensers, but expediting allowing Sec into a crime area and helping them with their advanced equipment should be fair game entirely.

Tl;dr FREE MY GIRL

[Jackraxxus]

Joe Biden strikes me as more of a caster than a martial, he should have a staff and spellbook not a sword and armor.

I hear his ultimate ability 'conjure ballots' is quite powerful

[Archie700]

I really don't know what the captain was doing that was wrong, from all that it seems captain worked with security to try to catch a heretic on a quiet shift.

[Archie700]

I hear his ultimate ability 'conjure ballots' is quite powerful

Holy shit no we are not doing this god fucking damnit

[LiarGG]

Noting a cap for helping sec is wild. Dealing with threats should fall under the captain's purview.

Someone go ban King John of Luxembourg for riding into the battle with his men and then DCing. smh

[kieth4]

The situation is weird, the ticket the guys "here's an ic reason" and the admin is like "well because of an ooc reason it doesn't count"

"Ai said heretic was targeting me"
Nope because the ai has no way to oocly know so it doesn't count

"Ce was slurring words that someone was a heretic"
Well that was the wrong slur and not a heretic slur but a drunk slur sorry doesn't count

Feels like the admin wants to apply this note and is picking and choosing what ic reasons are valid/invalid at random.

Ultimately when you are playing the game you're not really thinking about what could be the cause oocly and you take a lot of things at face value, which is fine! You shouldn't need to put everything said to you under ooc scrutiny.

It certainly feels like the captain had enough ic information to vo out and investigate but because of ooc factors that ic reasoning is being thrown away? Feels not good

[NecromancerAnne]

I was the one to tell Clara to either appeal or leave some admin feedback if the situation didn't result in a note. From what little was told to me, it was not something I would even consider worth investigating; captain is effectively above security in its entirety in terms of hierarchy, and generally speaking can insert themselves into any matter as a result. So long as they act appropriately in regards to security policy, they are able to act as security. Their role is largely analogous to the HoS in this regard. Often, the captain can and will be making decisions in the same capacity as them, and VERY frequently will they be pulled into joining conflicts. Their position requires this flexibility to exist in order for the role to function.

Captain acting in security is held to security standards. Always has been. It's just, in an optimization perspective, a poor decision to enter conflicts as the captain due to their nature as a massive loot pinata if they get taken out. If Rubs was after Clara (and it might have been a good extrapolation too, there are only so many heads of staff and heretics will come to get them eventually, even if the AI was wrong, which is...entirely OOC information, nobody should have been told that, only the heretic knows their exact targets), and Clara lost that fight, they'd have handed over two of Rub's targets to them to get even more power.

Reading more into the context and the ticket exchange, I was right to tell them to do so because most of this doesn't seem like just a poorly understood position about where the captain occupies in security matters, but also seems to be holding a player accountable over acting on IC information that turned out to be mildly inaccurate but at least had internal consistency enough to be reasonable. The points of contention are entirely reasonable justifications to act on, and some of this is information nobody in-game could have known, but is used to dismiss Clara's counterarguments anyway.

If the captain not being counted as sec has been enforced like this on Manuel in the past, I would hope it stops now. I would also hope that we don't get into long-winded arguments for an hour in tickets to the point that you may as well have pulled them into the admin prison if you were occupying so much of their time

[DATAxPUNGED]

Okay bmon haters hear me out, I'm about to make a conjecture
If there was a terrorist in the White House going around and attacking congress members, would you expect President Joe Biden himself to hunt him down?

I wouldn't expect it cuz he is a coward but i think it would be funny so he should do it

[Archie700]

Also notably, the CE was drunk and blacking out, but was also actively involved in hunting rubs in cargo, and the blackout could have very well screwed him over if Rubs decided to take advantage of that to kidnap him and steal his ID

[Constellado]

Yeah I am with the player here.

Captain's should be able to act as sec, with the reasons the player gave being the reasons I have.

If I am captain I WILL get sec officers asking me to help with something, either to deal with a criminal or tell them what punishment they will get. Even if there is a HoS. I personally want the sec officers to do it on their own, so I say "you can do what you want" they THEN tell me "hey, you have to authorise it."

No I was giving you permission to authorise it yourself IC. I gave you permission to think for yourself...

Sometimes the sec officer would give you a criminal then walk off.

That rant was to say that the captain is basically seen as HoS number 2, and should have rulings based on that. Any captain will get put into sec jobs whether they like it or not eventually. Its part of the job.
I personally do what I can to not do sec work but I eventually end up doing it as captain, especially in low pop when there is no HoS. Protecting my station is the caps job in ss13 afterall.

[Timonk]

I'm sure if Joe Biden asked he would get a gun and armor for self defense. Doesn't mean he can apply in the local police force to hunt for criminals because he's bored on a quiet White House shift

[Archie700]

I'm sure if Joe Biden asked he would get a gun and armor for self defense. Doesn't mean he can apply in the local police force to hunt for criminals because he's bored on a quiet White House shift

Yeah but the captain is not the president of Nanotrasen, for one.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Unlike real life commanders, the ss13 captain doesnt have anything to do other than 1) Protect his ID and the nuclear auth disk 2) Call the shuttle when it's time to go home 3) stick his nose into other departments lanes because he's bored.

We don't give him the best armour on station and a brace of deadly weapons exclusively for self defense - If he wants to go out and play ball with the serial killer targeting his direct subordinates in person instead of annoying the HOS with micromanagement, he can.

[ekaterina]

Oh... so THIS is why everyone hates Bmon. So much for "they hate me because I kill as an antag".

[Timonk]

We don't give him the best armour on station and a brace of deadly weapons exclusively for self defense - If he wants to go out and play ball with the serial killer targeting his direct subordinates in person instead of annoying the HOS with micromanagement, he can.

why would i get noted for looting the antique laser every round on manny then

[Timonk]

also please remember we are talking MRP. unlike on LRP not every single person on the station is rambo there

[EmpressMaia]

The situation is weird, the ticket the guys "here's an ic reason" and the admin is like "well because of an ooc reason it doesn't count"

"Ai said heretic was targeting me"
Nope because the ai has no way to oocly know so it doesn't count

"Ce was slurring words that someone was a heretic"
Well that was the wrong slur and not a heretic slur but a drunk slur sorry doesn't count

Feels like the admin wants to apply this note and is picking and choosing what ic reasons are valid/invalid at random.

Ultimately when you are playing the game you're not really thinking about what could be the cause oocly and you take a lot of things at face value, which is fine! You shouldn't need to put everything said to you under ooc scrutiny.

It certainly feels like the captain had enough ic information to vo out and investigate but because of ooc factors that ic reasoning is being thrown away? Feels not good

Oh God this is gross. I feel like I need to take a shower after reading this. Free my girl

[DrAmazing343]

FREE MY GIRL!

[EmpressMaia]

RPR 4 should allow Capsec IMO. It makes sense for the Captain to fill in and assist with literally anything on station unless it is already and ENTIRELY covered without any necessity for assistance; I.e. cap should not step in to a virus fix when CMO and Chemists are working the dispensers, but expediting allowing Sec into a crime area and helping them with their advanced equipment should be fair game entirely.

Tl;dr FREE MY GIRL

no capsec is cring and is as despicable as hopsec, you are ABOVE the crew. you have your pawns do work for you. you dont gotta get your hands dirty

[DrAmazing343]

Hopsec is cringe because ur a fucking pencil pusher until the cap actually bites the dust and you tear off your jacket in two pieces to reveal rows of chiseled muscle and become the final boss.

Capsec is entirely valid because half the fucking appeal is being the guy who goes TALLY HO LADS AFFIX BAYONETS and goes and stabs a triangular hole in someone

[Timberpoes]

This is the world's most IC issue IC issue.

RPR4 ain't a bludgeon to force players to play in the way admins think they should, especially not Cap. Cap's a role that genuinely has a pass to get involved in any part of the station affairs. They're the boss of every department's boss.

RPR4 is to ensure players actually interact instead of deciding they can do the player's job better and breaking in to do it. Using it in this way decreases those meaningful interactions and demotes the Captain to delegator-in-chief. That ain't it for me.

[TheBibleMelts]

i understand the intent to curb valid hunting on MRP in particular, but there were more than sufficient reasons for the Captain to invoke their Actions Hero card in this situation as I understand it as well.

[RedBaronFlyer]

Okay bmon haters hear me out, I'm about to make a conjecture
If there was a terrorist in the White House going around and attacking congress members, would you expect President Joe Biden himself to hunt him down?

No, but I would expect Teddy Roosevelt to do such a thing.

[datorangebottle]

If the logs didn't literally state Rubs's CKEY, i'd expect bmon to be self-adminning their own ticket or something. This is ridiculous.

[Higgin]

I'm coming around on thinking this was an entirely fair and reasonable shoot on xzero's part.

It might suck to be up against a stacked deck with the opposition, but if how it went down felt bad or less dramatic than it could have been, it's the fault of nobody involved, it's just how things shook out - all the choices seem reasonable.

[BonChoi]

We should start taking bets as to how bmon is going to respond to this appeal thread.

Anyone with adminbus access is not allowed to bet, I also ask that you don't spoil it kthx.

For me it comes down to two options. Bmon sees the err in their ways and overturns the note themselves or they double down and it has to be overturned by headmins (speaking of which if that's after the election results is it decided on by like 6 people? LOL)

My money's on the first option.

[vect0r]

First option.

[kinnebian]

We should start taking bets as to how bmon is going to respond to this appeal thread.

Anyone with adminbus access is not allowed to bet, I also ask that you don't spoil it kthx.

For me it comes down to two options. Bmon sees the err in their ways and overturns the note themselves or they double down and it has to be overturned by headmins (speaking of which if that's after the election results is it decided on by like 6 people? LOL)

My money's on the first option.

[BonChoi]

We should start taking bets as to how bmon is going to respond to this appeal thread.

Anyone with adminbus access is not allowed to bet, I also ask that you don't spoil it kthx.

For me it comes down to two options. Bmon sees the err in their ways and overturns the note themselves or they double down and it has to be overturned by headmins (speaking of which if that's after the election results is it decided on by like 6 people? LOL)

My money's on the first option.

God weeps.

What the fuck is that? What is that???? Oh God I feel awful looking at this... is this how striders feels when someone posts an image of the wet owl??? Ugh

[kinnebian]

We should start taking bets as to how bmon is going to respond to this appeal thread.

Anyone with adminbus access is not allowed to bet, I also ask that you don't spoil it kthx.

For me it comes down to two options. Bmon sees the err in their ways and overturns the note themselves or they double down and it has to be overturned by headmins (speaking of which if that's after the election results is it decided on by like 6 people? LOL)

My money's on the first option.

God weeps.

What the fuck is that? What is that???? Oh God I feel awful looking at this... is this how striders feels when someone posts an image of the wet owl??? Ugh

its a doggy