Eye for an Eye justice leaves us all nutty.

[Omega_DarkPotato]

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=36018

I'm on the side of vekter here, this seems bizarre as hell for a lawyer to do. "Insane medical doctor" might, but why is the defense attorney pickling your eyeballs for being an escaped convict?

[Jacquerel]

It's funny to imagine your lawyer saying "don't worry, we argued him down from 'execution' to 'eye removal'" but that does not seem to be what happened here.

[PapaMichael]

Bro rushed the admin complaint too
Speedrunning FNR approval?

[Jacquerel]

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=36017

oh there's a complaint thread too
well if Vekter ever gets tired of borderline ridiculing this man and we need someone else to take on the task of providing no solutions to problems, refusing to deescalate, and not listening to the complainant, then I'm sure this thread will perform adequately as is tradition

[Vekter]

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=36017

oh there's a complaint thread too
well if Vekter ever gets tired of borderline ridiculing this man and we need someone else to take on the task of providing no solutions to problems, refusing to deescalate, and not listening to the complainant, then I'm sure this thread will perform adequately as is tradition

I can always just stop borderline ridiculing him and outright call him an idiot if he'd prefer.

[Fatal]

This is the kind of lawyer you don't want defending you for anything

[PapaMichael]

Wait.

In his current complaint, (which dendy already closed), he says

this was ALSO the same admin that exalted the exact same behaviour a prior time to me, on a much worse scale as they had banned me for not even breaking any rules, but an AHELP itself.

And then links to a complaint where he ahelped Vekter and... had his ahelp ruled as an IC issue.

So while we're on the topic of lawyers, I would like to present to the jury compelling evidence that this guy is not only an idiot, but a liar as well.
The prosecution rests, your honor.

[EmpressMaia]

We should assemble a jury of his peers to decide whether he should be placed on FNR approval

[Jacquerel]

"I only said I would do it as a joke" isn't a defence which functions when following saying the thing, you then did the thing

[DaBoss]

1 day ban appeal what's the dang point.

[Kendrickorium]

>1 day ban
>I just said I would do it as a joke

[BonChoi]

1 day ban appeal what's the dang point.

if you win the appeal it removes the note and they can reopen their complaint about vekter (it will go nowhere)

[ekaterina]

I can imagine defending these actions if this had taken place in LRP, but, given that this took place on Manuel, the ban just seems... normal... what did he even expect?

[conrad]

"I only said I would do it as a joke" isn't a defence which functions when following saying the thing, you then did the thing

[conrad]

Gif is not related but "as a joke" hits the neuron connection for this movie every time and it's an excellent movie.

[Vekter]

Gif is not related but "as a joke" hits the neuron connection for this movie every time and it's an excellent movie.

THAT'LL BE FOUR BUCKS BABY

YOU WANT FRIES WITH THAT

[conrad]

Gif is not related but "as a joke" hits the neuron connection for this movie every time and it's an excellent movie.

THAT'LL BE FOUR BUCKS BABY

YOU WANT FRIES WITH THAT

You story makes my heart heavy, and my prostate weak.

My bladder is full to burst.

[iwishforducks]

let them go... but only if they play for 1 week of having the blind trait selected

[Constellado]

Part of me wishes we had LOOC so people can communicate OOCly to say I don't want or like this. Torture RP I believe is fine UNLESS a person in it doesn't like it. And if somebody doesn't like it, it should stop immediately because it can be traumatic.

Speaking from experience.

If you are being tortured in game and it feels too far and you do not like it, even if it's from an antag, ahelp it I say. I have the firm belief that things like that should be honoured. Unless you are trying to game the admins, but admins are smart and can tell when things are not good.

[Vekter]

Part of me wishes we had LOOC so people can communicate OOCly to say I don't want or like this. Torture RP I believe is fine UNLESS a person in it doesn't like it. And if somebody doesn't like it, it should stop immediately because it can be traumatic.

Speaking from experience.

If you are being tortured in game and it feels too far and you do not like it, even if it's from an antag, ahelp it I say. I have the firm belief that things like that should be honoured. Unless you are trying to game the admins, but admins are smart and can tell when things went to far.

For the record, even if we had LOOC and Typhnox consented to what was happening, I still would have at least noted Lectu. The issue isn't so much "Typhnox was uncomfortable" as it was "This is really outside of what a security officer should be doing, much less a lawyer". It probably would have been less of a punishment but still noteworthy.

[BonChoi]

Is it not okay to do a little torture every now and then? Asking for a friend...

(I totally didn't recently try to rip someone's laser gun implant out of their arm as the warden recently...)

[conrad]

Is it not okay to do a little torture every now and then? Asking for a friend...

(I totally didn't recently try to rip someone's laser gun implant out of their arm as the warden recently...)

Get out more.

[BonChoi]

Well, torture wouldn't be the best way to put it, I wasn't getting weird with it or anything. They just kept going "ohh it would be harmful to bring me to medbay and have them take it out oohhhhh" and I got tired of all the bitching so I had an officer hold them down in the reeducation room while I tried to dig it out myself.

[ekaterina]

Torture RP I believe is fine

The quarrel between two similarly-named people who tortured each other still lives in my head rent free, many moons later. Axle and Alec, I think it was.

[dendydoom]

torture rp is one of those borderline things where it's always shit to be on the receiving end of. "oof ouch owieee im so hurt oh no please stop hurting me i wont like it waaa" while the other person just fucks with you until they're bored.

it's fine if it has a purpose like you want information and there are stakes involved but when it's just for the weird enjoyment of the other player, and they start to seem like they're enjoying it too much, it gets so uncomfortable.

not saying that's specifically what's going on here, but i've had a few instances of experiencing this as a player and more often than not it just became a situation of "alright dude, there's no point to this any more, please just kill me now"

[conrad]

Dendi touches the correct amount of grass.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

Upon reflection and reading everyone's thoughts in this thread, although at the time this scenario had made me really uncomfortable, if I were to go through the same thing today, I guess I would not ahelp it under the same complaints I originally cited. I agree with how Vekter handled this, and the rules cited. The lawyer really had no justification to be gouging out my eyes, especially since I had never garnered any enmity with him whatsoever. Correct call on Vekter's part in every aspect.

I would however like to take this time to complain about the Manuel players in this shift. I was screaming on common channel for help, 3 times before the secoff removed my headset, and not only did everyone fluoride stare at the walls and not care, a doctor even came over and helped them by hand delivering them tools to use! Additionally, even when I was brought out from the surgery room into the central exam room and clearly told all the surrounding doctors and whatever random people were hanging out in the exam room (You know there's always a few) that security and the lawyer were torturing me and gouged out my eyes, they STILL didn't care. Some MRP server, is this how you guys would seriously act if you happened to be in a hospital lobby and you saw a cop and a lawyer pinning a prisoner to a bed in cuffs with their eyes gouged out screaming that the lawyer had ripped out and eaten their eyes, you would seriously just fluoride stare at the walls and be indifferent to the whole scenario, or maybe even help them torture the person by giving them more tools to work with? It wasn't until the Captain happened to come to the exam room and I begged them for help did anyone else care, and even then the medical staff only helped me under the Captain's direct commands! Such shoddy roleplay!

If any of you except the Captain from that shift dare to tell me you have high roleplay standards again, I can only look on you in disdain and speak to you with derision! You really bring shame to Manuel's RP reputation. Even Sybil is better than you Manuel players, and I'm tempted to try out Terry now, purely for the sake of comparing! I would hazard even they're better than you, and their reputation is that they're cleaver-wielding valid-hunting ooga-booga cavemen!

[TheRex9001]

@kieth4 deploy the cool it with the anti-Terry remarks gif

[dendydoom]

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

@kieth4 deploy the cool it with the anti-Terry remarks gif

If I said even one incorrect thing in my last comment, may kieth4 strike me down for my sins! I'm not looking down on Terry, but no one can deny that what I said about that being their reputation is true. Frankly, I think that sort of playstyle I mentioned of them is charming in it's own way.

[iansdoor]

@kieth4 deploy the cool it with the anti-Terry remarks gif

I have seen a few. I made sure that security died/demotied to trial IC via centcom investigating. Though they would be bwoinked if they fought back their actions of demotion. I dream of IC investigation that leads to a few day job ban from CentCom inspectors, that is a callback to what I saw on higher RP servers.

[ekaterina]

their reputation is that they're cleaver-wielding valid-hunting ooga-booga cavemen!

Among who? Reputation is not universal. That's not their reputation on Terry, that's for sure.

[TheLoLSwat]

Torture rp is best when you only add a pinch of it when handling someone you “hate” IC. Taking out their eyes or kneecapping them or giving them brain damage via physical trauma and then letting them stumble to med while the crew reacts to how low security is willing to go, along with giving whoever you tortured or a friend of theirs very good reason to do something huge for their revenge is peak. Something morally reprehensible that you do as the “good guy” opens a lot of RP opportunities that antags and nonantags can latch onto

Slapping someone on a bed in brig med and then spamming 7 surgeries in a row to get them to go ssd or catatonic or otherwise be permanently incapacitated is cringe because it severely limits the RP opportunities for everyone involved.

[conrad]

You really bring shame to Manuel's RP reputation. Even Sybil is better than you Manuel players, and I'm tempted to try out Terry now, purely for the sake of comparing! I would hazard even they're better than you, and their reputation is that they're cleaver-wielding valid-hunting ooga-booga cavemen!

[BonChoi]

mfw some maniac is screaming that security is hurting them over the radio (it happens every shift)

[DaBoss]

>see cries of "Sec is abusing me!"
>see lizard name
>do everything in my power to assist security

[Donglesplonge]

the best course of action on manuel is to simply not deal with security because you will run into issues any which angle you approach dealing with security outside of a select few interactions


unless you're an antag

moral of the story? just get admins to give you antag

[iansdoor]

the best course of action on manuel is to simply not deal with security because you will run into issues any which angle you approach dealing with security outside of a select few interactions


unless you're an antag

moral of the story? just get admins to give you antag

Are you saying, I have to wait 10 whole business days for antag?!

[Higgin]

....

Some MRP server, is this how you guys would seriously act if you happened to be in a hospital lobby and you saw a cop and a lawyer pinning a prisoner to a bed in cuffs with their eyes gouged out screaming that the lawyer had ripped out and eaten their eyes, you would seriously just fluoride stare at the walls and be indifferent to the whole scenario, or maybe even help them torture the person by giving them more tools to work with? It wasn't until the Captain happened to come to the exam room and I begged them for help did anyone else care, and even then the medical staff only helped me under the Captain's direct commands! Such shoddy roleplay!

If any of you except the Captain from that shift dare to tell me you have high roleplay standards again, I can only look on you in disdain and speak to you with derision! You really bring shame to Manuel's RP reputation. Even Sybil is better than you Manuel players, and I'm tempted to try out Terry now, purely for the sake of comparing! I would hazard even they're better than you, and their reputation is that they're cleaver-wielding valid-hunting ooga-booga cavemen!

you're real as fuck for saying this, but even if it's not for self-aware reasons, have you considered this is how a lot of people do react to everyday sorts of violence until a higher authority either authorizes them to join in or rallies them to shut it down?

it's all very exaggerated here, but what we used to call the "Citadel stare" is also the mechanism by which a lot of atrocity towards people unrelated to and made different from you is allowed to occur IRL

at the risk of being too political here: if you're on a safe computer and have the stomach for it, take a look at what's been done with some of the ISKP shooters from the Moscow concert attack recently. you can buy parts of them on auction. (edit add: i said at the risk of being too political: this basically happens and happened in the U.S. as part of the global war on terror. even if the wounds and dismemberments were in many cases psychologically lasting rather than physical, leaving behind people too broken and now too old in custody to ever really live outside again is what we did in Guantanamo and how many other places as of yet unnamed. you don't have to look far to find some great inhumanity people are okay with or even happy to slot themselves into - especially towards an outgroup.)
edit for a source, not too explicit, but it's WaPo so at least slightly vetted: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/ ... torture/

also torture rp sucks shit. there's a reason it doesn't work IRL - it deprives you of as much agency as it takes that you will say and do anything to end it in the moment or kick it down the path. it's mostly about power and satisfaction rather than any material gain.

to borrow an illustrative quote from a piece of fiction, and warning, also explicit:

► Show Spoiler

My torturers were not interested in degrees of pain. They were interested only in demonstrating to me what it meant to live in a body, as a body, a body which can entertain notions of justice only as long as it is whole and well, which very soon forgets them when its head is gripped and a pipe is pushed down its gullet and pints of salt water are poured into it till it coughs and retches and flails and voids itself. They did not come to force the story out of me of what I had said to the barbarians and what the barbarians had said to me. So I had no chance to throw the high-sounding words I had ready in their faces. They came to my cell to show me the meaning of humanity, and in the space of an hour they showed me a great deal...

the thing about torture that makes it so particularly heinous to imagine (and we touch on this in an RP sense) is that short of even just killing someone, the continued suffering and helplessness is part of the point

except this is RP, so you're instead wrestling whether it's worth it to write it out as a person, to either deal with the deprivations other players come up with or act like they worked - in either case, personally, not something I've ever found all too rewarding


wrt bystanders and the banality of evil among MRPers:
tweak the circumstances a bit and this is how some people, enough people at least, will act if they're not already.

[iwishforducks]

this really isnt that deep guys

[RedBaronFlyer]

-word vomit-

What on earth are you guys on about?

[Higgin]

-guh-

bwuh?

the point is that it's not failRP to ignore bad things being done to somebody else, even if you're OOCly unaware that it's what you're doing, when you consider how people deal with exposures to atrocities and authorized abuse IRL

[Donglesplonge]

the best course of action on manuel is to simply not deal with security because you will run into issues any which angle you approach dealing with security outside of a select few interactions


unless you're an antag

moral of the story? just get admins to give you antag

Are you saying, I have to wait 10 whole business days for antag?!

yeah you have to mail in the application with the 10 dollar check attached it kinda sucks but if its what it takes

[DrAmazing343]

You know it’s a good Higgin post when he throws out the Waiting for the Barbarians quotation.

On the real, though? It’s kinda hard IC and OOC to stop steamrolling Sec unless it’s incredibly obvious, prolonged, and directly in front of you. I wasn’t in your round so I can’t speak to the events that went on, but last night a Captain demanded I only revive the Clown if I left him a nugget.

Point-blanked the motherfucker with “Why?” like six times and the Cap could never deliver, so we fixed ‘em up and got the poor dude moving and grooving again, but some people really do just look at the rank and not the man. Just so, some people really do sit on their rank and just Do Shit. It’s fucked up.

[dendydoom]

-guh-

bwuh?

the point is that it's not failRP to ignore bad things being done to somebody else, even if you're OOCly unaware that it's what you're doing, when you consider how people deal with exposures to atrocities and authorized abuse IRL

it's also the case that a lot of people might just not notice. it sucks to not get help (it's happened to me before and it's for sure frustrating) but it's not worth taking it personally and blaming them on an OOC level. except for the guy that brought them a retractor and didn't question what was going on. that was a bit weird.

i play a lot of medical and people screaming all around you in agony is about par for the course for an active medbay. i'm locked in on the life i'm trying to save. i've operated and revived people while gunfights and explosions are taking place around me and just not paid attention to it because i'm doing 5d chess in my head to figure out how to save this dude lying supine with their guts hanging out in front of me, it's something you just get used to as an MD.

[BonChoi]

especially when the person screaming for help is a person wearing orange prison garb and is shackled to the operating table in handcuffs by security, with a lawyer present.

I feel that there are many times to complain about the bystander effect when you're being wronged but this isn't one of them lol

[Higgin]

-guh-

bwuh?

the point is that it's not failRP to ignore bad things being done to somebody else, even if you're OOCly unaware that it's what you're doing, when you consider how people deal with exposures to atrocities and authorized abuse IRL

it's also the case that a lot of people might just not notice. it sucks to not get help (it's happened to me before and it's for sure frustrating) but it's not worth taking it personally and blaming them on an OOC level. except for the guy that brought them a retractor and didn't question what was going on. that was a bit weird.

i play a lot of medical and people screaming all around you in agony is about par for the course for an active medbay. i'm locked in on the life i'm trying to save. i've operated and revived people while gunfights and explosions are taking place around me and just not paid attention to it because i'm doing 5d chess in my head to figure out how to save this dude lying supine with their guts hanging out in front of me, it's something you just get used to as an MD.

great point, it's not all at all willful - how many times in sec or med do you come around to only find out after the fact some fucked shit has happened or been enacted and have to triple take getting caught up? sometimes in the same brig or treatment center!

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

-guh-

bwuh?

the point is that it's not failRP to ignore bad things being done to somebody else, even if you're OOCly unaware that it's what you're doing, when you consider how people deal with exposures to atrocities and authorized abuse IRL

it's also the case that a lot of people might just not notice. it sucks to not get help (it's happened to me before and it's for sure frustrating) but it's not worth taking it personally and blaming them on an OOC level. except for the guy that brought them a retractor and didn't question what was going on. that was a bit weird.

i play a lot of medical and people screaming all around you in agony is about par for the course for an active medbay. i'm locked in on the life i'm trying to save. i've operated and revived people while gunfights and explosions are taking place around me and just not paid attention to it because i'm doing 5d chess in my head to figure out how to save this dude lying supine with their guts hanging out in front of me, it's something you just get used to as an MD.

This is a fair take but I feel like it's a bit different when three different non-antags all took part in this. The lawyer who got banned, the secoff who helped him and was standing off to the side the whole time and kind of half approved of it, and the dude who actively helped them by bringing them tools. It's one thing if everyone is indifferent and I'm being ignored when I need help, fine, that happens all the time, who hasnt slowly bled out in crit while being ignored in a main hall surrounded by 7 people before, but the frustration level rises about 20000x times when it's multiple people getting actively involved in helping the bad situation along, as non-antags.

Sorry if I was a bit much in my first post in this thread, but as everyone has pointed out, a lot of people did a lot of really weird things in this shift to me. I'm okay now, I just had to rant a bit, that shift was very frustrating.

[DrAmazing343]

+1 to getting caught up in work the quadruple-taking, eyes bulging out of your skull at the awful shit you missed during your personal D-Day