Local cultist abandons their faith for the machine god, gets smited for their sins

[Donglesplonge]

Bottom post of the previous page:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=36064


talkin' like everyone knows your every move is definitely weird, acting like you're never gonna be able to help the cult as a roundstart cultist but will be able to as a fucking ASIMOV LAWED BORG is even weirder, but the weirdest of all is choosing to borg yourself instead of suicide, WHO WILLINGLY WANTS TO BE A CYBORG!!!!!!

[MooCow12]

Again, its apparently very relevant if i havent been banned yet for doing 12-24 points of damage to other people as collateral when im killing nukies.

If you joined as a nuke op, spent most of the round healing your fellow ops, then intentionally started shooting at them and did 12-24 points of damage to your other nuke ops before they killed you because you tried to fight them, you would get banned.
This is you as an asimov borg.

No because you are disconnecting it into two separate actions one that gets you banned and one that doesnt

Me being borged was one action, in this hyptothetical scenario i prevented a shit ton of damage to teammates and at the same time did 15-30 to one of them.

[Jacquerel]

No because you are disconnecting it into two separate actions one that gets you banned and one that doesnt

Me being borged was one action, in this hyptothetical scenario i prevented a shit ton of damage to teammates and at the same time did 15-30 to one of them.

Yes it is one action: You chose to set yourself up attack your own team, you lulled them into a sense of security by repairing atmospherics then later you attacked your own team. Fortunately they were able to easily kill you.

[MooCow12]

You are a member of the cult.

I thought i would be and i could craft pylons as engie borgs but after I got borged it apparently took my cult status away and i couldnt see cult chat or other cult members so i went about with the normal asimov playstyle i knew would help cult anyway by clogging breaches and giving a cult mime the runed metal i had to make into pylons to stop atmos from moving so fast.


See theres no bug icon next to this mime

[Jacquerel]

You can't on one hand say "I was helping the cult because I was still in the cult" and on the other say "I wouldn't be able to help the cult if I had no laws because I'm not in the cult".
If you truly believe you weren't in the cult you were breaking the rules even more by aiding them, by your own admission.

[MooCow12]

Yes it is one action: You chose to set yourself up attack your own team, you lulled them into a sense of security by repairing atmospherics then later you attacked your own team. Fortunately they were able to easily kill you.

So just like in one action I can make a grenade that fixes breaches, heals teammates, but accidently blocked someone from getting to safety because metal foam blocked them and they took damage and died.

[MooCow12]

You can't on one hand say "I was helping the cult because I was still in the cult" and on the other say "I wouldn't be able to help the cult if I had no laws because I'm not in the cult".
If you truly believe you weren't in the cult you were breaking the rules even more by aiding them, by your own admission.

What rule says I cant take myself out of cult with the intention of giving the cult a better chance by forging an environment where cult will thrive.

[Jacquerel]

You can't on one hand say "I was helping the cult because I was still in the cult" and on the other say "I wouldn't be able to help the cult if I had no laws because I'm not in the cult".
If you truly believe you weren't in the cult you were breaking the rules even more by aiding them, by your own admission.

What rule says I cant take myself out of cult with the intention of giving the cult a better chance by forging an environment where cult will thrive.

Because you deconverted yourself from the cult.
Once you're not in the cult you aren't allowed to help them, and when you are in the cult you are not allowed to willingly leave it.

If you would not be allowed to help the cult as a lawless cyborg, you're extremely not allowed to help them as an Asimov cyborg.

It seems like in code we actively remove the cult antag datum from cyborgs, so in fact you chose to actively deconvert yourself and then continue aiding the cult.
Which to be clear: is worse than everything else you've been saying so far.

[Indie-ana Jones]

Take the L bozo
You deserve the ban
Anyone with your playtime should know to just turn off roundstart cult, doing this shit actively harms the round for everyone

[MooCow12]

If you would not be allowed to help the cult as a lawless cyborg, you're extremely not allowed to help them as an Asimov cyborg.

So im not allowed to fix atmos / the structure of the station because that would help cult way more than crew??? i dont understand where you are going with this. are asimov borgs not allowed to create a safe environment where every party thrives in?

[Jacquerel]

So im not allowed to fix atmos / the structure of the station because that would help cult would way more than crew??? i dont understand where you are going with this.

Once you have joined an antagonist team you are not allowed to willingly leave it.
Once as a non-antagonist cyborg you learn that there is a cult (because you were a cultist) you must act to prevent it (at least, by telling people what you knew about it).
This is two separate ways that you can't do this.

What you are saying here is that you in fact weren't trying to help the cult but were just coincidentally fixing atmos... which means you weren't trying to help the cult, which was your job as a cultist.
You can't have it both ways.

[iansdoor]

Yeah.. but you still gotta tell someone IC and tell admin prior incase situation fucks up. Then this is a funny story, a good development. You talk alot with everyone that is willing to listen to you, maybe the main issue is failure of communication.
I will say ASSimov borg absolutely sucks ass every time, but a purged or a borg on a new law set can be dam fun, which is what I assume you were trying for. That action requires planning and less in the moment. Keep in mind, your team was more or less down a player, that could convert. As a borg don't have hands and the only other path up is being a construct. But the situation was too early for y'all to go out in the open. I have seen folks fumble the bag even earlier, so that is just my opinion.
I did try my darnest to rectify the sack target, who was on chosen while at Centcom and told them to pretty much oops daisy into the cult and be sacked. I am curious to know if you and the other cultist, John mentioned anything to your own team members, who were in the low hours.

[MooCow12]

Atleast rate my narsie summon while i was waiting for cult to go loud so i could build a base on the station.

[dragomagol]

Atleast rate my narsie summon while i was waiting for cult to go loud so i could build a base on the station.

Not apoc rune, shameful. (but no really it is good)
Why not get a job change to sci?

[MooCow12]

I am curious to know if you and the other cultist, John mentioned anything to your own team members, who were in the low hours.

I tend to only be very communicative after I get spirit realm up and running because thats when I get the loud voice that other cultists will see, that and with spirit realm I have better access to accurate information so i dont say anything inaccurate.

I think the only interaction i had with other cultists this round was showing the other cultist the location of more plasteel.

[MooCow12]

Atleast rate my narsie summon while i was waiting for cult to go loud so i could build a base on the station.

Not apoc rune, shameful. (but no really it is good)
Why not get a job change to sci?

Everytime i roll a job i dont want i end up spending 5 or so minutes at hop line and nobody comes so i just suicide, i have atleast probably 20 round start suicides as antag on tg because it gave me a job i didnt want and I couldnt get a change and thats just the norm.

This just happened to be the first time as a conversion antag and I thought borging would be a more consistent way to get a change to something where my skillset is useful.


Last time was a few days ago where I rolled cargo tech spy then went to hop line, no hop, suicide

then earlier today i get round start viro ling, suicide cause i didnt wanna waste time at hop line again.

[spookuni]

IT IS RELEVANT BECAUSE WHEN I TRY I AM NOT GOING TO HAVE THAT MUCH OF AN IMPACT ON MY PREVIOUS TEAM AND I WOULD HAVE LIKELY PROVIDED MORE VALUE THAN 15-30 POINTS OF DAMAGE UP UNTIL THIS POINT.


The point isnt if i am going to try or not its how effective an asimov borg is going to be going into melee vs 1 click stuns.

Cultborg (realising they need to stop the summoning): ;Hey guys there's a blood cult around looking to harm humans you should stop that"

alternatively

Cultborg (trying to minimise actual potential harm): Hey security there's a cult about trying to do harm I will lead you to them if you double triple pinky swear to non-harmfully detain and deconvert them.

This is somewhat hyperbolic, but the point that a cyborg with full knowledge of a cult is actually very capable of interceding effectively against the cult's activities stands.

[MooCow12]

Cultborg (realising they need to stop the summoning): ;Hey guys there's a blood cult around looking to harm humans you should stop that"

I thought its against the rules to assume harm as silicons, the cult target was a felinid, i never saw the summon narsie objective

Infact i dont think i saw anyone fighting throughout the entire round. cult or not which is admittedly rare but i do tend to be in places that arnt populated.


I think a chaplain did go spar sect though which means i knew that they were probably gonna be fighting a bit but not in a way that I would be forced to act (are asimov silicons required to stop 2 consenting humans from sparring?)

[MooCow12]

What you are saying here is that you in fact weren't trying to help the cult but were just coincidentally fixing atmos... which means you weren't trying to help the cult, which was your job as a cultist.

A grenade doesnt have any intentions either it has consequences. You arnt dismantling my comparison.


So if i had a grenade that helps cult by increasing the chance that narsie is summoned, resulting in less overall damage the cult takes and actually heals cult, but a fellow cultist is GOING to take 15-30 damage, would i be allowed to activate it.

[spookuni]

I thought its against the rules to assume harm as silicons, the cult target was a felinid, i never saw the summon narsie objective

Infact i dont think i saw anyone fighting throughout the entire round. cult or not which is admittedly rare but i do tend to be in places that arnt populated.

It's against the rules to assume (without strong in that-specific-round evidence) that someone else is planning to do harm or that random 'potentially harmful if you squint' actions are going to result in harm to override otherwise valid law 2 orders. (Example: trying to get in the pharmacy without access, you can make bombs in there but a silicon can't assume that you plan to without strong evidence)

This does not apply in retrospect to actions carried out by the silicon themselves which would, with the information available to the silicon player, reasonably result in harm. If a silicon player knows what the consequences of its own actions will be, the silicon knows what the consequences of its own actions will be. A formerly cultist cyborg is intractably aware of the existence and goals of its (apparently former) team, knowledge which would move actions that directly and purposefully assist them from 'possibly harmful' to 'a silicon assisting in doing harm knowingly and on purpose'.

Additional addenda, I have been made aware that cyborgification deconverts team antagonists, I did not know this before and I don't expect anyone else to have known this specifically, but it does render my comment earlier about pre-purged shells incorrect - that would also be acting to self-deconvert on purpose. Any team antag to silicon conversion would require the receiving shell (AI or Cyborg) to be fully lawed to ensure that the resulting silicon is law bound to act as if they were a member of their previous team.

[Jacquerel]

I thought the arguments in this topic were bad but the ones in the appeal are so much dumber somehow

[MooCow12]

I thought the arguments in this topic were bad but the ones in the appeal are so much dumber somehow

I push the boundaries of man and machine.

[MooCow12]

Additional addenda, I have been made aware that cyborgification deconverts team antagonists, I did not know this before and I don't expect anyone else to have known this specifically, but it does render my comment earlier about pre-purged shells incorrect - that would also be acting to self-deconvert on purpose. Any team antag to silicon conversion would require the receiving shell (AI or Cyborg) to be fully lawed to ensure that the resulting silicon is law bound to act as if they were a member of their previous team.

Okay but how was anypony supposed to know this already. I thought anycultpony could just be turned into a borg and retain the ability to use runed metal to craft ponylons.

[Vekter]

Very good ban IMO, this is literally just deconverting yourself with extra steps.

[MooCow12]

So the act of "deconverting yourself" is arbitrarily blacklisted and never allowed even when it could theoretically provide alot more value for your team? Are suicide bombs as team antagonist bad too?

[MooCow12]

Example in this video

Im a rev

I throw a sticky bomb that can be activated by ghosts at the security officer

I ghost, effectively removing myself from my team, my only futher input in this round is removing that security officer from the round which is a net positive for my team

I abuse the fact that while ghosts are not revs anymore they are allowed to kill people if given the opportunity and I kill the security officer even with the theoretical issue of me possibly killing my previous teammates.

Am i banned?

https://youtu.be/2H6vvIvW8e0?si=vh-QxmkBMiX0v_Kw&t=37

(The answer is yes because I probably just made you watch 2 youtube ads for a 10 second clip)


This is literally as close as it gets to me turning into an asimov borg as a cultist, something that has previously happened, multiple admins know I did it, so whats the big difference.

[TheBibleMelts]

you are presenting every hypothetical you can instead of just presenting the literal situation that you were banned for

[MooCow12]

you are presenting every hypothetical you can instead of just presenting the literal situation that you were banned for

If you read from the beginning, I was initially arguing what actually happened vs what admins theorized could happen, note my note doesnt say me getting turned into an asimov borg resulted in me doing anything to harm cult afterwards because all i did after that was try to fix atmos and give a cultist my runed metal to make into pylons because I discovered I couldnt use them myself.


What factually happened, i changed into a borg instead of buming around waiting for an opportunity to be useful and then proceeded to try to help everyone (including cult) by fixing atmos, the station was literally in a state where I would just die as a lizard cultist anyway.



Scroll up and most of the hypotheticals and youll see a laundry list of "you could be law'd to turn on your teammates", "but what if your law 1 and narsie summon"

Nopony should talk me into countering those hypotheticals and then say Im just talking in hypotheticals, that is a toxic and underhanded way to converse.

[spookuni]

Additional addenda, I have been made aware that cyborgification deconverts team antagonists, I did not know this before and I don't expect anyone else to have known this specifically, but it does render my comment earlier about pre-purged shells incorrect - that would also be acting to self-deconvert on purpose. Any team antag to silicon conversion would require the receiving shell (AI or Cyborg) to be fully lawed to ensure that the resulting silicon is law bound to act as if they were a member of their previous team.

Okay but how was anypony supposed to know this already. I thought anycultpony could just be turned into a borg and retain the ability to use runed metal to craft ponylons.

I don't expect you to have known this, it's a weird niche interaction that I brought up to acknowledge that I hadn't known about it and as such my previous comment about the viability of using a purged borg shell for this strategy is incorrect - I don't want to accidentally bait another player reading this thread into doing something against the rules now that I am aware that it is.

So the act of "deconverting yourself" is arbitrarily blacklisted and never allowed even when it could theoretically provide alot more value for your team? Are suicide bombs as team antagonist bad too?

Being effectively or actually deconverted isn't fully no-context blacklisted, but the number of situations where a player can willingly and intentionally shuck their status as a team antag are very uncommon.

Whatever form an effective or actual willing deconversion takes, the player OOC would be bound to ensure that they are both
- Still required to assist their former team
- Still capable of doing so, both in character and out of character (deconversion generally carries with it a loss of antagonist status that would prohibit actually helping your former team even if you wanted to)

The situations where both of these requirements are met are rare

Suicide bombing would not be considered a self-deconversion by anyone that I'm aware of - dying in the pursuit of furthering your team's objectives is very different to attempting to shuck those objectives to go do whatever. The standard for suicide bombing as a conversion antag is generally 'good faith attempt to help team that didn't actively make their jobs harder'. Just as if you had died fighting whatever you were bombing the normal clicky way

[Kendrickorium]

what a great thread guys really great

really really great

[MooCow12]

- Still required to assist their former team

I ghost, effectively removing myself from my team, my only futher input in this round is removing that security officer from the round which is a net positive for my team

I abuse the fact that while ghosts are not revs anymore they are allowed to kill people if given the opportunity and I kill the security officer even with the theoretical issue of me possibly killing my previous teammates.

[spookuni]

I ghost, effectively removing myself from my team, my only futher input in this round is removing that security officer from the round which is a net positive for my team

I abuse the fact that while ghosts are not revs anymore they are allowed to kill people if given the opportunity and I kill the security officer even with the theoretical issue of me possibly killing my previous teammates.

Looking at the video I'd personally rule the funny ghost bomb as being functionally equivalent to a suicide attack, and therefor whatever. You'd still be on the hook if the ghost activated bomb killed a (former) teammate though.

[MooCow12]

Looking at the video I'd personally rule the funny ghost bomb as being functionally equivalent to a suicide attack, and therefor whatever. You'd still be on the hook if the ghost activated bomb killed a (former) teammate though.

Swap to asimov borg should be considered a suicide attack against large scale pve elements (shitmos) then is the point im trying to make. Conversion antagonists suffer against PVE. Engie borgs hard counter PVE and are the best thing to be when dealing with it (atleast if you consider PVE to just be environment and not nonsentient mobs which engie borgs arnt as great at but they are decent)


That and I originally believed I could spam pylons as an asimov borg (atleast policy wise i should be able to, the result was i was mechanically stopped)

[spookuni]

Swap to asimov borg should be considered a suicide attack against large scale pve elements (shitmos) then is the point im trying to make. Conversion antagonists suffer against PVE. Engie borgs hard counter PVE and are the best thing to be when dealing with it (atleast if you consider PVE to just be environment and not nonsentient mobs which engie borgs arnt as great at but they are decent)

That... is not how that works. At all.

The foundation of a suicidal action is that you, the player, are not playing the video game afterwards. If you are still playing the video game after you do the thing it was not suicidal.

The comparison of 'singular highly destructive action that results in the character performing it being dead' and 'a playstate change' is a non-starter even before you get into the weeds of 'no actually fixing atmos is not a cult specific action' or the in this case entirely critical 'Asimov silicons are aligned against entities they know are harmful to humans, which includes blood cults they are former members of'.

A potentially valid version of this comparison would be a player jumping out into space to throw around metal foam grenades and fix a breach, sacrificing their life in the process. Not subjecting themselves to another control mechanism that implicitly aligns them against their former team.

The argument could be made that it would be beneficial to a cult to have an explicitly subverted cyborg on their side to do borg things and be useful, (and it is an argument, given that even properly pre-subverted borg shells are no longer proper cultists and cannot assist with conversions or cult gear construction, which is especially crippling if that cultist is one of the roundstart three) but that argument categorically does not apply to cyborgs that are lawbound to oppose the cult. An asimov cyborg that knowingly assists blood cultists with the completion of their objectives after having been made aware of their ultimate Nar'Sie summoning goal is breaking silicon policy.

[MooCow12]

proper cultists and cannot assist with conversions or cult gear construction, which is especially crippling if that cultist is one of the roundstart three) [/i].

I want to go on a tangent about how I was already useless and the only change was atmos on the station was slightly better but what bothers me more is how reliant you apparently think cult is on a specific type of teamwork.


There is

Cultists who work directly together to further their team in microscopic instances, converting anyone and everyone and just generally doing good things together.

Most cultists do this and anyone can do this on their own, a single cultist has a better loadout than most round start antagonists to the point where you can start up a party by yourself, the recommendation to do this is to atleast have maint access.




and cultist who do a laundry list of side objectives that helps their team from a macro scale, usually on their own.

• Disabling genetics to prevent hulk
  
  Spamming pylons to ensure the team has somewhere to heal thats on station
  
  Converting Silicons
  
  Disabling tcomms
  
  making a wraith and ordering them to sabotage shit (could be tcomms or ai)
  
  converting or assassinating specific static names (this is important to do before mid-late game)
  
  Ensuring mechs dont come into play
  
  Using spirit realm to callout key plays before they are made like someone with a ttv or groups of crew hunting cult, or some atmos sabotage

I was attempting #2 spamming pylons along with keeping atmos in check.

[oranges]

christ dude just take the l with some grace.

[MooCow12]

Its hard to take an L with grace when youre arguing with DR strange looking into the future at all the possible bad outcomes of your decision that ultimately benefited your team more than hurting it (actually there was no net negative to it the only thing subtracted from the cult was a coroner lizard that was going to die anyway, the net positive was a stack of 20+ runed metal was passed down to a cultist in need).

[Ezel]

Over all the things he would banned for i'd figured it would be for immediatly ghosting as soon sec arrests them for breaking into a area [with "free materials" like eva]

[MooCow12]

Over all the things he would banned for i'd figured it would be for immediatly ghosting as soon sec arrests them for breaking into a area [with "free materials" like eva]

The only reason this is unlikely is because security doesnt arrest for breaking into eva and if they do they get lynched by literally everyone witnessing it.

[Ezel]

Over all the things he would banned for i'd figured it would be for immediatly ghosting as soon sec arrests them for breaking into a area [with "free materials" like eva]

The only reason this is unlikely is because security doesnt arrest for breaking into eva and if they do they get lynched by literally everyone witnessing it.

They can't be lynched because they have metaprotections c:

[MooCow12]

They can't be lynched because they have metaprotections c:

that didnt prevent it from happening though.

[spookuni]

Its hard to take an L with grace when youre arguing with DR strange looking into the future at all the possible bad outcomes of your decision that ultimately benefited your team more than hurting it (actually there was no net negative to it the only thing subtracted from the cult was a coroner lizard that was going to die anyway, the net positive was a stack of 20+ runed metal was passed down to a cultist in need).

To be completely honest, I would think that all that needs to happen for the ban to get dropped down to a note and time served is for you to say "Okay, I understand that getting turned into an asimov borg voluntarily as a cultist is against the rules, even if I disagree with why. I will not do this again"

Stuff like this is normally just a 'yo don't do this' and a note, and while I am neither a headmin nor the banning admin and cannot guarantee their reasoning, it feels like the only reason that the antag ban hammer was dropped is because you're giving major 'I'll fuck'n do it again' vibes. As an observer there appears to be a disconnect between why admins care (a rulebreak from doing this is inevitable - what you're required to do in the two roles contradicts, so don't do it both for your sake and rule 7) vs your focus on the particular round where it happened (where it sounds like shit got fucked very quickly and it may not have mattered much (dunno I wasn't there) ).

in my opinion your best bet to try and resolve this in a way that reduces the impact of this ban is to try and approach it from the angle of improving communication, because the argument isn't 'this particular round was no good terrible very bad ban he forever' from this side (or at very least from my particular uninvolved peanutting bystander side, lul) it's 'this thing will result in rulebreaks if it's repeated, so don't do it again'.

[Archie700]

This has got to be a record of the number of posts of talking in your own peanut.

[MooCow12]

This has got to be a record of the number of posts of talking in your own peanut.

Ya i wouldnt have to begin with i actually talked about wanting to get a cult/rev ban before but the situation kinda made my heart feel like it has a hole in it and venting my point of view on internet made it go away for a tiny bit and then it comes back again and then i come backhere.

[MooCow12]

Its hard to take an L with grace when youre arguing with DR strange looking into the future at all the possible bad outcomes of your decision that ultimately benefited your team more than hurting it (actually there was no net negative to it the only thing subtracted from the cult was a coroner lizard that was going to die anyway, the net positive was a stack of 20+ runed metal was passed down to a cultist in need).

To be completely honest, I would think that all that needs to happen for the ban to get dropped down to a note and time served is for you to say "Okay, I understand that getting turned into an asimov borg voluntarily as a cultist is against the rules, even if I disagree with why. I will not do this again"

i dont want the ban reduced i want to stop feeling bad and wrong, last time i was like this was over the espear seccie ban and i stayed up till like 9 am talking on forums cause i couldnt sleep.

[Ezel]

I thunk yoi need to take a break from ss13 if irs getting that bad

[MooCow12]

its not ss13 related i just went through this with my friends too which is why i started playing alot more again, when i said i was just like this i meant in the context of ss13 it was that long ago, the game doesnt hurt me as much as i usually make it seem its usually the social stuff that hurts me.

[Ezel]

The big brain in this man btw.
Wants to be borged cuz cult lacks metal(they know borgs have infinite metal/glass from silo)
This man could have litteraly done anything else to get resources like ordering from cargo mining themselves etc but they choose the only thing that removes their antag status + gives them access to litteraly everywhere only to be limited by qsimov

[MooCow12]

actually the end goal in terms of resources was to be able to print plasteel from anywhere without looking sus and just generally being able to bring it wherever it needs to be, you cant search a borg's sheet arm.


plus you have access to every source of plasma on the station including ai sat which alone is 35 sheets!!!!! (on meta, i dont know values on delta and tram)

[Ezel]

last time i was cultist i printed 150 plasteel in the middle of cargo autolathe and nobody batted an eye and you can probaly ahelp if they "bagcheck" you randomly over getting just plasteel if they dont know its cult

[MooCow12]

last time i was cultist i printed 150 plasteel in the middle of cargo autolathe and nobody batted an eye

i think it was mainly bad with statics like paris

[Ezel]

last time i was cultist i printed 150 plasteel in the middle of cargo autolathe and nobody batted an eye

i think it was mainly bad with statics like paris

Ahelp they get roasted, metastation has over 180+ plasma in maint generators alone which is alot of plasteel if you get some metal