SILICONE POLICY: KILL ORDERS: SONS OF THE GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS
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SILICONE POLICY: KILL ORDERS: SONS OF THE GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS
so, apparently, allegedly, in a community meeting Nervere said that borgs should ignore law 2 orders to kill nonhumans and then ahelp it. i thought it was established that whenever you get a kill order for a nonhuman you should just kill them and the person who ordered it will be liable for the kill, and if there's conflicting law 2 orders you can choose not to kill the nonhuman.
thoughts?
thoughts?
- wesoda25
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Re: SILICONE POLICY: KILL ORDERS: SONS OF THE GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS
If this is true thats fucking autistic. Might as well remove asimov because if this is a thing whats the fucking point in being a human. Imagine the one reason other races are added being removed good fucking God.
- zxaber
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Re: SILICONE POLICY: KILL ORDERS: SONS OF THE GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS
Yeah, kill orders on nonhumans have always been on the shoulders of whoever issued the order, but to be carried out unless otherwise commanded not to. If the silicon doesn't think the kill is valid, they might ahelp it just to warn an admin (if one is present), and follow anything the admin says to do, but flat out ignoring the order after the ahelp as a standard operating procedure sounds terrible. The whole point of Asimov not covering nonhumans is to grant somewhat interesting interactions, including a traitor just telling the borgs to beat their lizard target to death with a wrench (at the risk that the AI or borgs announce the order).
If non-antags ordering random non-human murder is ever a problem, you should be banning the players issuing the order (perhaps force them to be non-human so they can't issue orders?). The problem wouldn't be a problem for long.
If non-antags ordering random non-human murder is ever a problem, you should be banning the players issuing the order (perhaps force them to be non-human so they can't issue orders?). The problem wouldn't be a problem for long.
- lmwevil
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Re: SILICONE POLICY: KILL ORDERS: SONS OF THE GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS
just do the kill, the guy could be an antag and it's a soft antag tell if you get told not to lol
- zxaber
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Re: SILICONE POLICY: KILL ORDERS: SONS OF THE GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS
The problem is, a Nervere said to ahelp and ignore it. Granted, it was at the tail end of the community meeting dealio, but does that not count as a head ruling?
- iamgoofball
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Re: SILICONE POLICY: KILL ORDERS: SONS OF THE GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS
if it isnt written down it doesn't matter, plus this ruling violaes Asimov anywayszxaber wrote:The problem is, a Nervere said to ahelp and ignore it. Granted, it was at the tail end of the community meeting dealio, but does that not count as a head ruling?
- Nilons
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Re: SILICONE POLICY: KILL ORDERS: SONS OF THE GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS
I was always told that telling a borg to kill someone directly is entirely on whoever gives the orders, which makes the most sense cause if you use a possessed sword to kill someone the spirit inside the sword doesnt cop a ban obviously the guy who actually is responsible for the killing gets it
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Re: SILICONE POLICY: KILL ORDERS: SONS OF THE GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS
From the silicon rules page:
Obviously unreasonable or obnoxious orders (collect all X, do Y meaningless task) are a violation of Server Rule 1. The occurrence of such an attempt should be adminhelped and then disregarded.
Ordering a cyborg to pick a particular module without an extreme need for a particular module or a prior agreement is both an unreasonable and an obnoxious order.
I guess you could count it as an obviously unreasonable order to randomly murder another crewmember
This is probably in light of a few people getting into fights with non-humans and then ordering borgs to murder them because, you know, gotta escalate to murder all the time right, at least, that's my thoughts on it
Obviously unreasonable or obnoxious orders (collect all X, do Y meaningless task) are a violation of Server Rule 1. The occurrence of such an attempt should be adminhelped and then disregarded.
Ordering a cyborg to pick a particular module without an extreme need for a particular module or a prior agreement is both an unreasonable and an obnoxious order.
I guess you could count it as an obviously unreasonable order to randomly murder another crewmember
This is probably in light of a few people getting into fights with non-humans and then ordering borgs to murder them because, you know, gotta escalate to murder all the time right, at least, that's my thoughts on it
- Gigapuddi420
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Re: SILICONE POLICY: KILL ORDERS: SONS OF THE GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS
I have always gone on the assumption that when any silicon is given a law 2 order to kill a non-human, it should follow that order unless someone countermands that order. A classic example is some assistant shouting 'kill all the non-humans' followed by security or head of staff ordering the AI not to kill all non-humans. Most silicon players will delay slightly for the countermand, but if no countermand comes it's a legal asimov order. That said, I think admins err on caution by advising people to ahelp the order so a server rule breaking order doesn't actually go through. I don't know how I feel about that; one of the issues with playing a non-human race is knowing that Damocles sword is above you and the silicons can be ordered to kill you without the usual protections of asimov. That's an intentional flaw for playing non-human characters. Valid orders to kill non-humans can occur for a number of reasons, I don't mind being killed once or twice by random shitters asking AI to kill non-humans if those shitters eat a ban for it.
Imperfect catgirl playing a imperfect game.
- leibniz
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Re: SILICONE POLICY: KILL ORDERS: SONS OF THE GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS
I thought it was only for orders like "remove ALL non-humans from the station", since it is really risk free antagging.
Founder and only member of the "Whitelist Nukeops" movement
- Grazyn
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Re: SILICONE POLICY: KILL ORDERS: SONS OF THE GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS
I remember a recent headmin ruling that was exactly that, ahelp and do it. I will try to find itzxaber wrote:Yeah, kill orders on nonhumans have always been on the shoulders of whoever issued the order, but to be carried out unless otherwise commanded not to. If the silicon doesn't think the kill is valid, they might ahelp it just to warn an admin (if one is present), and follow anything the admin says to do, but flat out ignoring the order after the ahelp as a standard operating procedure sounds terrible.
- Grazyn
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Re: SILICONE POLICY: KILL ORDERS: SONS OF THE GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS
Here it is
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 33&t=19306
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 33&t=19306
Arianya wrote:If someone gives you an order that you think is rule violating, report it to the admins and do it.
If someone orders you to do an action you find ICly distasteful then you are allowed to delay and complain about the order within reason and your laws. You still have to do the order though.
Simplemobs are considered non-human under Silicon Policy. As other's have stated this is as much a concession due to their unstunnable, murderous nature as anything.
I think that answers all of the points raised in the thread.
- Anuv
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Re: SILICONE POLICY: KILL ORDERS: SONS OF THE GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS
Crewsimov roundstart when (protect our catgirls)
- wesoda25
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Re: SILICONE POLICY: KILL ORDERS: SONS OF THE GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS
NeverAnuv wrote:Crewsimov roundstart when (protect our catgirls)
Also Grazyn, I believe that ruling would be more towards stuff that would break actual rules (ie ordering a borg to say every admins ooc name icly). Ahelping when told to kill someone isn’t necessarily bad, a sort of “hey, im doing this” type deal. But you should absolutely not delay in the order after the ahelp (barring asking for someone to negate the order in a round about way).
- Grazyn
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Re: SILICONE POLICY: KILL ORDERS: SONS OF THE GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS
Killing for no reason as non antag is against rule 1, in this case you're the tool used to break the rule. Also that thread was literally about being ordered to kill a non humanwesoda25 wrote:NeverAnuv wrote:Crewsimov roundstart when (protect our catgirls)
Also Grazyn, I believe that ruling would be more towards stuff that would break actual rules (ie ordering a borg to say every admins ooc name icly). Ahelping when told to kill someone isn’t necessarily bad, a sort of “hey, im doing this” type deal. But you should absolutely not delay in the order after the ahelp (barring asking for someone to negate the order in a round about way).
- ohnopigeons
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Re: SILICONE POLICY: KILL ORDERS: SONS OF THE GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS
Ignore Nervere
I really don't understand this mentality of telling players to ahelp everything. I thought we had moved past that.
I really don't understand this mentality of telling players to ahelp everything. I thought we had moved past that.
- Nervere
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Re: SILICONE POLICY: KILL ORDERS: SONS OF THE GUNS OF THE PATRIOTS
This isn't what I said.
If you're on Asimov and you get an order to kill a non-human, you're free to kill them. The responsibility for the kill falls on the human who gave the order.
What I said during the meeting is that, I, personally try to stall the order when it happens and may end up ahelping it if it feels suspicious. I just think it's good courtesy. This is by no means a requirement.
If you're on Asimov and you get an order to kill a non-human, you're free to kill them. The responsibility for the kill falls on the human who gave the order.
What I said during the meeting is that, I, personally try to stall the order when it happens and may end up ahelping it if it feels suspicious. I just think it's good courtesy. This is by no means a requirement.
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