Remove Rule 11
- pugie
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:41 pm
- Byond Username: Doctor Brutality
- Agux909
- Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:26 pm
- Byond Username: Agux909
- Location: My own head
Re: Remove Rule 11
No.
Remove bad actors that interpret rule 11 to suit their own agenda or because their common sense doesn't exist.
Remove bad actors that interpret rule 11 to suit their own agenda or because their common sense doesn't exist.
- Cobby
- Code Maintainer
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Re: Remove Rule 11
in the defense of some admins they made their stance very clear that they were gonna be "overzealous" (depending on who you ask, i imagine they believe its firmly within the scope of the rule because whats common sense is different for everyone) with rule 11 and receive not only 0 pushback but in fact support for these rulings, so im not sure how anyone acts surprise when they dance around touchy subjects and gets reprimanded for them especially if MSO isnt going to babysit infractions pertaining to the rule if he wants it enforced in a particular manner (which he may have been doing, i dont know but its not obvious if he is).
If you speak in a manner that uses race/sex/sexual orientation/etc. as the butt of many of your jokes, I honestly recommend turning it off when on official tg platforms and/or just make your own private discord where that level of banter is allowed (besides its a lot easier to call it banter when you're in a small discord group with friends than expect everyone on a 1000+ server be ok with that kind of language when they dont know you and quite frankly have no interest in knowing you). YOU WILL GET BANNED OTHERWISE, it is only a matter of time especially when some people on the admin team are VERY VERY VERY PASSIONATE about btfoing anything that remotely sniffs of being bigoted (i mean just look at some of the candidate threads).
nice thread btw.
edit: reminder my stance on this is unless its targeted at a specific person to berate/harass them for things they cannot change, its fine and u should just realize some people have more crass way of speaking without actually being a nazi/klan mem(b)er/etc.
If you speak in a manner that uses race/sex/sexual orientation/etc. as the butt of many of your jokes, I honestly recommend turning it off when on official tg platforms and/or just make your own private discord where that level of banter is allowed (besides its a lot easier to call it banter when you're in a small discord group with friends than expect everyone on a 1000+ server be ok with that kind of language when they dont know you and quite frankly have no interest in knowing you). YOU WILL GET BANNED OTHERWISE, it is only a matter of time especially when some people on the admin team are VERY VERY VERY PASSIONATE about btfoing anything that remotely sniffs of being bigoted (i mean just look at some of the candidate threads).
nice thread btw.
edit: reminder my stance on this is unless its targeted at a specific person to berate/harass them for things they cannot change, its fine and u should just realize some people have more crass way of speaking without actually being a nazi/klan mem(b)er/etc.
Last edited by Cobby on Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current
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Re: Remove Rule 11
i will
- Farquaar
- Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:20 am
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- Location: Delta Quadrant
Re: Remove Rule 11
I don't think that the rule should be removed, but I do think that MSO should weigh in on the direction of rule 11 interpretation and correct course accordingly.
► Show Spoiler
- oranges
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Re: Remove Rule 11
it's far, far farrrrrrrrrrrr too late to be concerned about it now pugie
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- Forum Soft Banned
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- Byond Username: Cacogen
Re: Remove Rule 11
'ate queers
'ate pikeys
'ate pakis
'ate transsexuals
'ate homosexuals
'ate rugby
'ate catholics
'ate gypsies
'ate seagulls
'ate lefties
'ate muslims
'ate cider
'ate frenchies
'ate huns
'ate the EU
Love football
Love me wife
Love pints
Simple as
'ate pikeys
'ate pakis
'ate transsexuals
'ate homosexuals
'ate rugby
'ate catholics
'ate gypsies
'ate seagulls
'ate lefties
'ate muslims
'ate cider
'ate frenchies
'ate huns
'ate the EU
Love football
Love me wife
Love pints
Simple as
technokek wrote:Cannot prove this so just belive me if when say this
NSFW:
- Malkraz
- Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:20 am
- Byond Username: Malkraz
Re: Remove Rule 11
Enforcement has become arbitrary and entirely at the mercy of the banning admin. The express focus on targeted harassment and "common sense over PC" are being ignored entirely in favor of punishing for any perceived "bigoted" comment that is wholly defined by the observer, context and intent often dismissed.
Common sense is the least common thing when it comes to enforcement of rule 11. A great example of a lack of common sense is Rick Morty (god bless his soul) and his appeal.
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 34&t=28564
Regardless of how autistic Ricky's logs might be, unless "referencing things in a derogatory manner" is considered targeted bigotry, it's hard to say any of the provided examples fall under its purview. Even then, you'd be hard-pressed to make the case for "sissy hypno" (lmfao), "he said 'inshallah'", "he dindu?" and referencing Lovecraft's cat.
With both Ricky's and now my own appeal, there's a substantial amount of disagreement not just among the playerbase but among the admin team as to what constitutes a valid rule 11 break, just look at the peanut threads.
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=28566
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=28688
There is clearly a rift between what appears to be MSO's intent behind the creation of the rule and the way it's currently being utilized both by admins who are applying it liberally and those who are ignoring those same behaviors.
Common sense is the least common thing when it comes to enforcement of rule 11. A great example of a lack of common sense is Rick Morty (god bless his soul) and his appeal.
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 34&t=28564
Regardless of how autistic Ricky's logs might be, unless "referencing things in a derogatory manner" is considered targeted bigotry, it's hard to say any of the provided examples fall under its purview. Even then, you'd be hard-pressed to make the case for "sissy hypno" (lmfao), "he said 'inshallah'", "he dindu?" and referencing Lovecraft's cat.
With both Ricky's and now my own appeal, there's a substantial amount of disagreement not just among the playerbase but among the admin team as to what constitutes a valid rule 11 break, just look at the peanut threads.
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=28566
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=28688
There is clearly a rift between what appears to be MSO's intent behind the creation of the rule and the way it's currently being utilized both by admins who are applying it liberally and those who are ignoring those same behaviors.
Last edited by Malkraz on Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
wesoda24: malkrax you're a loser because your forum signature is people talking about you
- NoxVS
- In-Game Admin
- Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:43 pm
- Byond Username: NoxVS
Re: Remove Rule 11
How skull dented do you have to be to choose this clown to be the one you want to die on a hill next toMalkraz wrote:Enforcement has become arbitrary and entirely at the mercy of the banning admin. The express focus on targeted harassment and "common sense over PC" are being ignored entirely in favor of punishing for any perceived "bigoted" comment that is wholly defined by the observer, context and intent often dismissed.
Common sense is the least common thing when it comes to enforcement of rule 11. A great example of a lack of common sense is Rick Morty (god bless his soul) and his appeal.
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 34&t=28564
Regardless of how autistic Ricky's logs might be, unless "referencing things in a derogatory manner" is considered targeted bigotry, it's hard to say any of the provided examples fall under its purview. Even then, you'd be hard-pressed to make the case for "sissy hypno" (lmfao), "he said 'inshallah'", "he dindu?" and referencing Lovecraft's cat.
With both Ricky's and now my own appeal, there's a substantial amount of disagreement not just among the playerbase but among the admin team as to what constitutes a valid rule 11 break, just look at the peanut threads.
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=28566
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=28688
There is clearly a rift between what appears to be MSO's intent behind the creation of the rule and the way it's currently being utilized both by admins who are applying it liberally and those who are ignoring those same behaviors.
[youtube]MFP6rm0fNCw[/youtube]
The weak should fear the strong
thehogshotgun wrote:How does having jannies like you, who have more brain tumor than brain benefit the server
- Malkraz
- Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:20 am
- Byond Username: Malkraz
Re: Remove Rule 11
I'm using the examples explicitly provided by the banning admin in his appeal. Nobody is going to pretend Ricky isn't a based retard but you should really stick to the points at hand. Those particular statements don't appear to fall under the intent of the rule, and illuminate an issue with its current enforcement.
MSO wrote: A good chunk of people* both don't like racism, and also think that language policing must have zero false positives. Among these people is a strong trend to seperate out racist speech and insensitive speech (with no racist intention) in their mind, which they think shouldn't be included in language policing.
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Is nationality even a protected class under rule 11? should it be? Should I even bother to ridgely define that seeing as how I don't want religion to be a protected class but then what you do about the nazis since judism is a religion.
How much should context matter? Is the context of the person (and their history) a part of this? like, If somebody say self identified as a nazi or a racist would that make even soft-a's racist? in the actual example of this note, was mal's history enough?
The primary goal of writing the rule the way I wrote it was to ensure that non-racist people could still interact in this community without having to worry about having what they said taken in bad faith or brought out of context.
*I'm people
wesoda24: malkrax you're a loser because your forum signature is people talking about you
- SuperNovaa41
- Code Maintainer
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- Byond Username: SuperNovaa41
Re: Remove Rule 11
This entire post is invalidated because you forgot to say you love grilling.cacogen wrote:'ate queers
'ate pikeys
'ate pakis
'ate transsexuals
'ate homosexuals
'ate rugby
'ate catholics
'ate gypsies
'ate seagulls
'ate lefties
'ate muslims
'ate cider
'ate frenchies
'ate huns
'ate the EU
Love football
Love me wife
Love pints
Simple as
- NoxVS
- In-Game Admin
- Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:43 pm
- Byond Username: NoxVS
Re: Remove Rule 11
He straight up says "I hate black people" multiple timesMalkraz wrote:I'm using the examples explicitly provided by the banning admin in his appeal. Nobody is going to pretend Ricky isn't a based retard but you should really stick to the points at hand. Those particular statements don't appear to fall under the intent of the rule, and illuminate an issue with its current enforcement.MSO wrote: A good chunk of people* both don't like racism, and also think that language policing must have zero false positives. Among these people is a strong trend to seperate out racist speech and insensitive speech (with no racist intention) in their mind, which they think shouldn't be included in language policing.
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Is nationality even a protected class under rule 11? should it be? Should I even bother to ridgely define that seeing as how I don't want religion to be a protected class but then what you do about the nazis since judism is a religion.
How much should context matter? Is the context of the person (and their history) a part of this? like, If somebody say self identified as a nazi or a racist would that make even soft-a's racist? in the actual example of this note, was mal's history enough?
The primary goal of writing the rule the way I wrote it was to ensure that non-racist people could still interact in this community without having to worry about having what they said taken in bad faith or brought out of context.
*I'm people
The weak should fear the strong
thehogshotgun wrote:How does having jannies like you, who have more brain tumor than brain benefit the server
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- Forum Soft Banned
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- Byond Username: Cacogen
Re: Remove Rule 11
I got this out of the /pol/ archive from a thread from like 2018 or somethingSuperNovaa41 wrote:This entire post is invalidated because you forgot to say you love grilling.cacogen wrote:'ate queers
'ate pikeys
'ate pakis
'ate transsexuals
'ate homosexuals
'ate rugby
'ate catholics
'ate gypsies
'ate seagulls
'ate lefties
'ate muslims
'ate cider
'ate frenchies
'ate huns
'ate the EU
Love football
Love me wife
Love pints
Simple as
technokek wrote:Cannot prove this so just belive me if when say this
NSFW:
- Kel
- Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:04 am
- Byond Username: Jaraxxus
Re: Remove Rule 11
all is lost.Cobby wrote:in the defense of some admins they made their stance very clear that they were gonna be "overzealous" (depending on who you ask, i imagine they believe its firmly within the scope of the rule because whats common sense is different for everyone) with rule 11 and receive not only 0 pushback but in fact support for these rulings
- Sylphet
- Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:35 am
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- Location: Rent free ~
Re: Remove Rule 11
As probably its biggest user, rule 11 sucks. Like, it sucks a lot. It's a weak, subjective half measure that removes its own claws before you even finish reading it. It sucks for players who don't know what's safe to say or what will get them bwoinked. It makes people adminwho before saying something - this should never be happening. It sucks for admins because any use of it for literally anything turns into a long, dramatic appeal / argument between two people with very different definitions of bigotry who will never agree or back down, that goes to headmins and creates a melodramatic peanut thread 100 % of the time. I could live with rule 11 following weaker standards than my own as long as it's not such a headache for everyone involved to use - It needs to be rewritten, not removed, to have a firm, clear position on how much bigotry we're going to pretend is okay.
Tell me how much you think that I should be thrown out of the nearest airlock !
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 37&t=27175
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 37&t=27175
- oranges
- Code Maintainer
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- Github Username: optimumtact
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Re: Remove Rule 11
or maybe mso is going to be disappointed at the clear lack of reasonableness you display and remove you instead of pointlessly rewriting a rule you're going to interpret to the maximum possible available to you anyway
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- Forum Soft Banned
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- Byond Username: Cacogen
Re: Remove Rule 11
I thought it banned bigotry. You can just say slurs provided they aren't against a person or a group and you aren't using them to promote bigotry. Is that wrong?
technokek wrote:Cannot prove this so just belive me if when say this
NSFW:
- Malkraz
- Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:20 am
- Byond Username: Malkraz
Re: Remove Rule 11
Moreso than what it expressly bans, the highly subjective nature of it is the biggest problem both in the arbitrary nature of enforcement and the potential for "slur creep" as you get new blood in administrative positions.Sylphet wrote:It sucks for players who don't know what's safe to say or what will get them bwoinked. It makes people adminwho before saying something - this should never be happening. It sucks for admins because any use of it for literally anything turns into a long, dramatic appeal / argument between two people with very different definitions of bigotry who will never agree or back down.
100%. This type of rule will always be a black hole of bickering as we've gotten a glimpse of recently without that firm, clear position.Sylphet wrote:It needs to be rewritten, not removed, to have a firm, clear position on how much bigotry we're going to pretend is okay.
That would be a word ban, which MSO wanted to avoid. As much as it makes some people seethe, you can call someone a nigger or a faggot without it "being bigotry." MSO even stated in the peanut for my appeal that he wasn't sure exactly what groups he wanted protected, such as nationalities, and that he didn't want it extended to religions. In addition, context should be playing a role.cacogen wrote:You can just say slurs provided they aren't against a person or a group
MSO wrote:Questions i'll have to mull in my head:
Is nationality even a protected class under rule 11? should it be? Should I even bother to ridgely define that seeing as how I don't want religion to be a protected class but then what you do about the nazis since judism is a religion.
How much should context matter? Is the context of the person (and their history) a part of this?
This is against Rule 11, and would be something like "I hate niggers." This statement does not pertain to the game or the players in it at all, it's wholly OOC and presents nothing but "race bad."cacogen wrote:and you aren't using them to promote bigotry.
In regards to "promoting" bigotry however, how far does that extend? If someone said "two jews walk into an oven", is that promoting bigotry or just a shitty joke? What about "two jews walk into a bar. they own the place"?
Do jokes at the expense of a group eventually cross a line into promotion, or should they just be banned outright? I can definitely see them being OOC in most cases, but we're also implementing highly stereotyped tourist bots.
wesoda24: malkrax you're a loser because your forum signature is people talking about you
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- Forum Soft Banned
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- Byond Username: Cacogen
Re: Remove Rule 11
If I call you a nigger Malkraz expecting that you're white is it not insulting black people by using an ugly and dehumanising word for being black as an insult?
technokek wrote:Cannot prove this so just belive me if when say this
NSFW:
- Malkraz
- Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:20 am
- Byond Username: Malkraz
Re: Remove Rule 11
cacogen wrote:If I call you a nigger Malkraz expecting that you're white is it not insulting black people by using an ugly and dehumanising word for being black as an insult?
I'll invoke a little of that crafty "common sense" here and say that faggot has been largely detached from gay people in the majority of its use these days, as I believe is the case for a number of online communities when it comes to dropping N's.Rule 11 wrote:Intentionally seeking to demean others due to their actual or perceived race, sex, gender, orientation or the like is not tolerated.
We also use autistic and retarded VERY liberally here. We're generally not targeting each other specifically with these insults, which I think is what MSO was primarily aiming to get rid of. I think that "never go full Dootdoom" is a good standard to try to set.
wesoda24: malkrax you're a loser because your forum signature is people talking about you
- Vekter
- In-Game Admin
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- Location: Fucking around with the engine.
Re: Remove Rule 11
I don't think we need to remove it, but we could do to tighten up how we're enforcing it across the board.
That being said, that's more a criticism of how we handle rules in general than a criticism of rule 11.
That being said, that's more a criticism of how we handle rules in general than a criticism of rule 11.
AliasTakuto wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
Omega_DarkPotato wrote:This sucks, dude.
Spoiler:
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Re: Remove Rule 11
don't you get banned for being in discords like that with other /tg/ players nowadays?Cobby wrote:in the defense of some admins they made their stance very clear that they were gonna be "overzealous" (depending on who you ask, i imagine they believe its firmly within the scope of the rule because whats common sense is different for everyone) with rule 11 and receive not only 0 pushback but in fact support for these rulings, so im not sure how anyone acts surprise when they dance around touchy subjects and gets reprimanded for them especially if MSO isnt going to babysit infractions pertaining to the rule if he wants it enforced in a particular manner (which he may have been doing, i dont know but its not obvious if he is).
If you speak in a manner that uses race/sex/sexual orientation/etc. as the butt of many of your jokes, I honestly recommend turning it off when on official tg platforms and/or just make your own private discord where that level of banter is allowed (besides its a lot easier to call it banter when you're in a small discord group with friends than expect everyone on a 1000+ server be ok with that kind of language when they dont know you and quite frankly have no interest in knowing you). YOU WILL GET BANNED OTHERWISE, it is only a matter of time especially when some people on the admin team are VERY VERY VERY PASSIONATE about btfoing anything that remotely sniffs of being bigoted (i mean just look at some of the candidate threads).
nice thread btw.
edit: reminder my stance on this is unless its targeted at a specific person to berate/harass them for things they cannot change, its fine and u should just realize some people have more crass way of speaking without actually being a nazi/klan mem(b)er/etc.
- XDTM
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Re: Remove Rule 11
Even if it isn't targeted at one specific person for their specific identity, stuff like the n-word still creates an acid atmosphere for anyone who belongs to the groups they originally targeted, because it's hard to tell if people using it are just crass or if they're actually bigoted (and the doubling down when asked to avoid them in favor of less bigoted insults doesn't help). I wouldn't be keen on playing with people who would think i'm an inferior human being if they knew me personally. Or anyone else for that matter.
This goes double for potential new players who don't come from a context where these insults are "detached from their meaning".
This goes double for potential new players who don't come from a context where these insults are "detached from their meaning".
a.k.a. Duke Hayka
Coder of golems, virology, hallucinations, traumas, nanites, and a bunch of miscellaneous stuff.
Coder of golems, virology, hallucinations, traumas, nanites, and a bunch of miscellaneous stuff.
- Vekter
- In-Game Admin
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- Byond Username: Vekter
- Location: Fucking around with the engine.
Re: Remove Rule 11
Not that I know of. Only reason I'd see banning for that is if it was obvious you were metacomming.Qustinnus wrote:don't you get banned for being in discords like that with other /tg/ players nowadays?Cobby wrote::words:
AliasTakuto wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
Omega_DarkPotato wrote:This sucks, dude.
Spoiler:
- Agux909
- Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:26 pm
- Byond Username: Agux909
- Location: My own head
Re: Remove Rule 11
You can't do anything about what others think, specially in an old 2D spessman game, so forget about it. The rule is reasonable as it is. Being insensitive =/= showing bigotry. And if we agree we all are +18 there is a limit to how sensitive someone is matters in the context of this rule.XDTM wrote:Even if it isn't targeted at one specific person for their specific identity, stuff like the n-word still creates an acid atmosphere for anyone who belongs to the groups they originally targeted, because it's hard to tell if people using it are just crass or if they're actually bigoted (and the doubling down when asked to avoid them in favor of less bigoted insults doesn't help). I wouldn't be keen on playing with people who would think i'm an inferior human being if they knew me personally. Or anyone else for that matter.
This goes double for potential new players who don't come from a context where these insults are "detached from their meaning".
Yeah someone might have a mouthful and be insensitive to people around by throwing words, but this doesn't immediately mean their goal is to demean or harrass an individual or a group of people for their race or their way of life.
People likes to dick around and throw insults without wanting to make someone else's life miserable. If hearing a single slur or insensitive word makes your life miserable then go to a server with a list of banned words.
Bad actors exist tho and they need to be shut down as soon as they show signs of bigotry. Until then, you can't do much, because false positives are shit.
- Mickyan
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Re: Remove Rule 11
If you wouldn't be comfortable with screaming at the top of your lungs in a crowded street what you're about to type on your keyboard, consider the pros and cons of not typing it at all and you won't have any fear of getting banned
This is just a simple life lesson from little old me on how to not to be an asshole on the internet
This is just a simple life lesson from little old me on how to not to be an asshole on the internet
- pugie
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- Mickyan
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- Byond Username: Mickyan
- Github Username: Mickyan
Re: Remove Rule 11
Then you might just be the guy this rule is trying to get rid of
- pugie
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:41 pm
- Byond Username: Doctor Brutality
Re: Remove Rule 11
I am a known nazi yes.
doctormayhem you have proven yourself as a standup guy, I just wish you linked a funny youtube poop instead of a very racist song and none of this would ever happen, just imagine if you were born as an African American and someone was making these jokes at your expense, please try to put yourself in the shoes of a person of color, comedy may be subjective but bigotry is not. This is coming from someone who loved "funny" racist jokes in FYAD/SomethingAwful at 15 before I grew up and realized that it isn't funny and that ironic racism absolutely can evolve into real racism. Luckily that was not the case for me but I saw lots of people go down a very dark path. Take this experience as a lesson that bigotry and hate can have very real consequences - admin punishment today, beaten to an inch of your life tomorrow. What if your parents saw this thread, what would they think? About your behavior? Or friends, co-workers? Would they be laughing along with you? I ask you to step back and look at the situation from another person's perspective and realize that hate in any form can poison you down to your bones. Your soul. Do not give in and try to enjoy life for what it is with new sincerity.
doctormayhem you have proven yourself as a standup guy, I just wish you linked a funny youtube poop instead of a very racist song and none of this would ever happen, just imagine if you were born as an African American and someone was making these jokes at your expense, please try to put yourself in the shoes of a person of color, comedy may be subjective but bigotry is not. This is coming from someone who loved "funny" racist jokes in FYAD/SomethingAwful at 15 before I grew up and realized that it isn't funny and that ironic racism absolutely can evolve into real racism. Luckily that was not the case for me but I saw lots of people go down a very dark path. Take this experience as a lesson that bigotry and hate can have very real consequences - admin punishment today, beaten to an inch of your life tomorrow. What if your parents saw this thread, what would they think? About your behavior? Or friends, co-workers? Would they be laughing along with you? I ask you to step back and look at the situation from another person's perspective and realize that hate in any form can poison you down to your bones. Your soul. Do not give in and try to enjoy life for what it is with new sincerity.
- Farquaar
- Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:20 am
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- Location: Delta Quadrant
Re: Remove Rule 11
Dumb test. If you’d feel comfortable screaming the innocuous words you just typed on a crowded street, I would venture that you suffer from a mental illness.Mickyan wrote:If you wouldn't be comfortable with screaming at the top of your lungs in a crowded street what you're about to type on your keyboard, consider the pros and cons of not typing it at all and you won't have any fear of getting banned
This is just a simple life lesson from little old me on how to not to be an asshole on the internet
► Show Spoiler
- CPTANT
- Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
- Byond Username: CPTANT
Re: Remove Rule 11
You are comfortable screaming "HELP MICKYAN IS A TRAITOR, FUCKING SHOOT HIM!!!!" in a crowded street? O "THE AI IS ROGUE, CUT ALL CAMERAS" or "MICKYAN IS A LING, GIB HIM IN THE FOOD PROCESSOR"?Mickyan wrote:If you wouldn't be comfortable with screaming at the top of your lungs in a crowded street what you're about to type on your keyboard, consider the pros and cons of not typing it at all and you won't have any fear of getting banned
This is just a simple life lesson from little old me on how to not to be an asshole on the internet
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
- wesoda25
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:32 pm
- Byond Username: Wesoda25
Re: Remove Rule 11
I want to add more examples but I think the point has been made.
As to what sylphet said - I agree that it’s wording isn’t quite the best, but the “removing its own claws” aspect seems very intentional to me. It’s my understanding that rule 11 is reserved for obvious situations, and if you find yourself constantly having to defend your use of the rule, perhaps you should use it less liberally.
As to what sylphet said - I agree that it’s wording isn’t quite the best, but the “removing its own claws” aspect seems very intentional to me. It’s my understanding that rule 11 is reserved for obvious situations, and if you find yourself constantly having to defend your use of the rule, perhaps you should use it less liberally.
- saprasam
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Re: Remove Rule 11
space station 13 is an autism containment game
- Flatulent
- Forum Soft Banned
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- Byond Username: FlatulentIndustrialist
- Location: Sao Paulo, Brazil
Re: Remove Rule 11
perhaps we could replace rule 11 with a more traditional approach to determine bigotry that welsh admins like pugie use.
they would take a sheep and offer it food from both hands. if the sheep chooses the right hand, the person is bigoted and has to be banned. otherwise the person is allowed to go free as their bigotry has been ruled out. if sheep doesn’t accept food, the admin has to be demoted forever.
this will eliminate rules lawyering and banbots forever. a simple and fair solution, which obviously is better at determining the right course of actions than sybil/manuelmins “logical”, “rational” “thought” they apply on daily basis.
they would take a sheep and offer it food from both hands. if the sheep chooses the right hand, the person is bigoted and has to be banned. otherwise the person is allowed to go free as their bigotry has been ruled out. if sheep doesn’t accept food, the admin has to be demoted forever.
this will eliminate rules lawyering and banbots forever. a simple and fair solution, which obviously is better at determining the right course of actions than sybil/manuelmins “logical”, “rational” “thought” they apply on daily basis.
Mothblocks, winter 2020, “successfully” preventing bagil death with relevant data wrote:You seem to be under the fallacy that reinforcing that Bagil is a TDM shithole where you must carry bolas and spears on you at all times, while looking for the next valid to hunt down is a positive change to the server. I don't. The data suggests other people don't.
imsxz wrote:I give up there’s too many furries
cacogen wrote:i asked oranges how often he plays and he deleted the post
cybersaber101 wrote:Welp, you guys let a terrymin become a headmin, thousand years of darkness.
Vekter wrote:I jerk off Nist a bit too much but he's honestly one of the best silicon players on the server. B.O.R.G.O. is also pretty good.
- Mickyan
- Github User
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- Github Username: Mickyan
Re: Remove Rule 11
It's posts like this that convince me no amount of changing the rules' vague wording is going to suffice since there's people incapable of understanding concepts beyond their most literal meaningFarquaar wrote:Dumb test. If you’d feel comfortable screaming the innocuous words you just typed on a crowded street, I would venture that you suffer from a mental illness.
- Farquaar
- Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:20 am
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- Location: Delta Quadrant
Re: Remove Rule 11
In the real world, there's a complex history of legal precedent that allows us to effectively interpret vague wording in a way that makes sense.Mickyan wrote:It's posts like this that convince me no amount of changing the rules' vague wording is going to suffice since there's people incapable of understanding concepts beyond their most literal meaningFarquaar wrote:Dumb test. If you’d feel comfortable screaming the innocuous words you just typed on a crowded street, I would venture that you suffer from a mental illness.
This is an internet game community, and rule 11 is a new rule with unclear precedent. If you're going to propose a new test for bigotry, and that test is dumb, then don't go back and say "omg you're taking me too literally". This is a policy thread, not a peanut.
► Show Spoiler
- Mickyan
- Github User
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- Github Username: Mickyan
Re: Remove Rule 11
It's not a test for bigotry it's a test for not being an asshole on the internet, which is relevant because Rule 1 exists
So my policy suggestion is to just ban people for rule 1 instead so we don't need to have this conversation anymore
So my policy suggestion is to just ban people for rule 1 instead so we don't need to have this conversation anymore
- Not-Dorsidarf
- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:14 pm
- Byond Username: Dorsidwarf
- Location: We're all going on an, admin holiday
Re: Remove Rule 11
I also agree with others that rule 11 is inherently fangless and indecisive with vague enforcement.
It can be confusing to know exactly where I’m supposed to be issuing the varying levels of penalty we apply as admins, and what qualifies (Clearly its beyond the simple “if someone is directly harassing someone else on protected characteristics, put them in the trash can” these days)
It can be confusing to know exactly where I’m supposed to be issuing the varying levels of penalty we apply as admins, and what qualifies (Clearly its beyond the simple “if someone is directly harassing someone else on protected characteristics, put them in the trash can” these days)
kieth4 wrote: infrequently shitting yourself is fine imo
There is a lot of very bizarre nonsense being talked on this forum. I shall now remain silent and logoff until my points are vindicated.
Player who complainted over being killed for looting cap office wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am Hey there, I'm Virescent, the super evil person who made the stupid appeal and didn't think it through enough. Just came here to say: screech, retards. Screech and writhe like the worms you are. Your pathetic little cries will keep echoing around for a while before quietting down. There is one great outcome from this: I rised up the blood pressure of some of you shitheads and lowered your lifespan. I'm honestly tempted to do this more often just to see you screech and writhe more, but that wouldn't be cool of me. So come on haters, show me some more of your high blood pressure please.
- Critawakets
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Re: Remove Rule 11
reminder being italian or swedish ingame is counted as a disability
- pugie
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:41 pm
- Byond Username: Doctor Brutality
Re: Remove Rule 11
Now you're thinking with portals.Mickyan wrote:It's not a test for bigotry it's a test for not being an asshole on the internet, which is relevant because Rule 1 exists
So my policy suggestion is to just ban people for rule 1 instead so we don't need to have this conversation anymore
I think I have the asshole test 4u tho : )) https://www.digg.com/r/AmItheAsshole/
- Omni
- Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:34 pm
- Byond Username: Omni44
Re: Remove Rule 11
Good player that is dedicated to community and not yet completely deprived of common sense?Mickyan wrote:Then you might just be the guy this rule is trying to get rid of
Yeah, I hard agree with you here.
- oranges
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Re: Remove Rule 11
>Common sense is being able to say the n word in ss13
- Omni
- Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:34 pm
- Byond Username: Omni44
Re: Remove Rule 11
Nah, that probably ain't it.
Noticing that giving admin team institution that is so broad and unspecified that it makes your game and whether you will be bwoinked over something, most likely, inane rely heavily on admin's personal beliefs on matters at best tangentially related to game itself and their caprice is prolly not best idea might qualify though.
Doubly so when said admin team has good chunk of people who consider it to be fangless tool, giant red flag as far as my personal opinion goes.
Noticing that giving admin team institution that is so broad and unspecified that it makes your game and whether you will be bwoinked over something, most likely, inane rely heavily on admin's personal beliefs on matters at best tangentially related to game itself and their caprice is prolly not best idea might qualify though.
Doubly so when said admin team has good chunk of people who consider it to be fangless tool, giant red flag as far as my personal opinion goes.
- oranges
- Code Maintainer
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Re: Remove Rule 11
>Says the guy who willingly joined a community who's rules LITERALLY say the admins can do whatever the fuck they want
Your argument makes no sense, try another tack though.
Your argument makes no sense, try another tack though.
-
- Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:29 am
- Byond Username: ArcaneDefence
Re: Remove Rule 11
God bless rule 0, only people I gotta worry about there is convincing the headmins or MSO.oranges wrote:LITERALLY say the admins can do whatever the fuck they want.
We're not going to just remove rule 11. It was given to us from MSO, not handed down to the headmins to consider.
Directly from the host himself. It's what we have to operate with, get used to it.
- Omni
- Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:34 pm
- Byond Username: Omni44
Re: Remove Rule 11
I mean, I am all for it if that's the case, just it doesn't strike me as very efficient system, the way you guys do it. Like, what are these dozens of people doing/pretending to be doing admin business, volumes upon volumes of contrived rules, precedents, interpretations, escalation shit and whatnot, Library of Alexandria-esque rules, appeals, complaints, feedback forums, all this organisation and hierarchy among other things if in the end it apparently boils down to "we can do whatever we want, scrub"?oranges wrote:>Says the guy who willingly joined a community who's rules LITERALLY say the admins can do whatever the fuck they want
Your argument makes no sense, try another tack though.
Like, man, if that's the case you could get rid of all of that, get one passionate guy to handle it all on all servers with just rule 0. I dare to wager someone like Sticky would happily fit the bill. Or just one averagely passionate (or power hungry) guy/server.
Hear me out man, in the end it would be both more efficient for the most part and clear to the players. The only downside would be losing out on some shit flinging drama which is enjoyable to watch from afar once in a while.
- Not-Dorsidarf
- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:14 pm
- Byond Username: Dorsidwarf
- Location: We're all going on an, admin holiday
Re: Remove Rule 11
The rules are codifying for admins and players alike the desired server experience and what constitutes doing right from wrong so that we get a consistency of administration to as great a degree as you'll ever get from 60-odd assholes who all vigorously disagree on every single aspect of policy, server culture, desired experience, and roleplay with each other.Omni wrote:Like, what are these dozens of people doing/pretending to be doing admin business, volumes upon volumes of contrived rules, precedents, interpretations, escalation shit and whatnot, Library of Alexandria-esque rules, appeals, complaints, feedback forums, all this organisation and hierarchy among other things if in the end it apparently boils down to "we can do whatever we want, scrub"?
kieth4 wrote: infrequently shitting yourself is fine imo
There is a lot of very bizarre nonsense being talked on this forum. I shall now remain silent and logoff until my points are vindicated.
Player who complainted over being killed for looting cap office wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am Hey there, I'm Virescent, the super evil person who made the stupid appeal and didn't think it through enough. Just came here to say: screech, retards. Screech and writhe like the worms you are. Your pathetic little cries will keep echoing around for a while before quietting down. There is one great outcome from this: I rised up the blood pressure of some of you shitheads and lowered your lifespan. I'm honestly tempted to do this more often just to see you screech and writhe more, but that wouldn't be cool of me. So come on haters, show me some more of your high blood pressure please.
- Cobby
- Code Maintainer
- Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
- Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
- Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone
Re: Remove Rule 11
It would be an uphill battle if your banter was taken and posted here but im imagining it’s easier to keep your discord on the DL moreso than your knack on bantering with race/sexuality/etc. being the focus point.Qustinnus wrote:
don't you get banned for being in discords like that with other /tg/ players nowadays?
The answer is no though, just don’t bring attention to that discord.
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current
- Naloac
- Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:21 pm
- Byond Username: Naloac
Re: Remove Rule 11
speaking not as an headmin but as an admin / player Rule 11 sucks, it sucks really fucking bad. its a bad middle ground that pleases nobody and that middle ground will be changed every time a new headmin term is elected. it doesnt get rid of the slurs some people want to be not said and makes it so people who think its fine to say them have to check admin who everytime they wanna say something. Enforcement is also wacky. Admins treat each word with their own personal biases meaning it dont matter how bad you think a word is or isnt because that admin might really dislike what you said and think its bigoted while another might not care. Having someone literally ask me is *potato* a slur against Irish people should show you what the teams working with here.
You cant also do the thing alot of people do in real life like allow someone of that type of person say that word, like letting a gay guy say faggot. Cos its the internet how the fuck do you tell if someones actually gay or just wanting to call everyone fags. So you basically have to treat it like a no one can say this thing. Which isnt great then you start banning people of that type because they want to reclaim a word.
This line in the rule "Enforcement will be less PC based and more common sense based" is also a ??? because what I think is PC and common sense is completely different than someone on the other side of the world. Rule 11s case is basically only a harassment stopper which is already done with the other rules. Putting it down just means admins will start trying to stop people saying certain words which in the same rule says "It is not our goal to create or enforce a list of banned words and instead our goal to eject bigotry from the community."
Rule 11 is effectively a nothing burger than brings alot of scrutiny when an admin tries to enforce it because what people agree is bigoted and what isnt bigoted will rarely line up. Its better covered by rules we already have. If we want to keep it and actually start enforcing it, it would have to be changed to allow a list of bigoted language with all slurs treated them same. Which isnt exactly great because then you have to start banning stupid things like potato. Cos its not fair to protect one type of people from a word and not another. If someones literally a nazi calling for the death of people thats already covered by other rules rule 11 just muddies the water by allowing stupid shit into the system too.
You cant also do the thing alot of people do in real life like allow someone of that type of person say that word, like letting a gay guy say faggot. Cos its the internet how the fuck do you tell if someones actually gay or just wanting to call everyone fags. So you basically have to treat it like a no one can say this thing. Which isnt great then you start banning people of that type because they want to reclaim a word.
This line in the rule "Enforcement will be less PC based and more common sense based" is also a ??? because what I think is PC and common sense is completely different than someone on the other side of the world. Rule 11s case is basically only a harassment stopper which is already done with the other rules. Putting it down just means admins will start trying to stop people saying certain words which in the same rule says "It is not our goal to create or enforce a list of banned words and instead our goal to eject bigotry from the community."
Rule 11 is effectively a nothing burger than brings alot of scrutiny when an admin tries to enforce it because what people agree is bigoted and what isnt bigoted will rarely line up. Its better covered by rules we already have. If we want to keep it and actually start enforcing it, it would have to be changed to allow a list of bigoted language with all slurs treated them same. Which isnt exactly great because then you have to start banning stupid things like potato. Cos its not fair to protect one type of people from a word and not another. If someones literally a nazi calling for the death of people thats already covered by other rules rule 11 just muddies the water by allowing stupid shit into the system too.
Timberpoes wrote: Lepi was right all along.
I Might Be an admin, You should leave me feedback: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 37&t=24032
- oranges
- Code Maintainer
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- Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED
Re: Remove Rule 11
the racist headadmin everyone
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