CreationPro wrote:I used to see Hulks as the only sensible counter to cyborgs who are already unstunnable by default, carry a flash and can go secborg to completely fuck you over if you have some antag needs. (Hello, geneticist here.) (Especially as a geneticist). Moreover, wizards hulk themselves every time they use "Mutate".
The entire point of hulk is to be super strong at the cost of having to spend half the round finding the hulk ability and being unable to use guns. (That, however, changed with the addition of the new super-annoying ability virus, which LEL scrambles DNA.)
Any points against that?
1) We don't need to babysit antags
2) Antags have special tools (EMP Kits, Dissonant Shriek, etc.)
CreationPro wrote:But how do I counter the fucking secborgs then? Don't say "EMP", it's really unreliable.
(I'd also be quite content if hulks' ability to smash R-walls was removed, that's just stupid.)
Also, what does this have to do with security. Security have always been free to laser down griefing hulks until they de-hulk.
Traitor: EMP Kit, Revolver quad-tap, emag crowbar remove cell, fight them near the singularity, etc. Hell, you're a hulk! Run up and e-sword them! Five hits and it's DEAD.
Changeling: Resonant or Dissonant Shriek into Arm Blade or Hulkfisting. Fight them near singularity. So on. If you're a ling, a cyborg is all but HELPLESS against you.
Wizard: Magic Missile, Blinking about like a shit, casting EMP, using Mutate's laser mode, Ei`nath
Rev: Having your team with you, killing sec for their things. Let's be honest, if hulk somehow happens in rev it should be over soon anyway.
Cult: EMP Papers, stun papers, cult blades
Nuke Ops: Can't feasibly have hulk
Blob: Hurr
All of the above also have easy methods of stealing flashbangs, flashes, etc., from security.
Like... I don't mean to be an asshole. I really don't. But devil's advocacy aside...
If you're an antag, you have SO MANY ways to kill cyborgs. SO many. The most robust weapon a cyborg has is an Engineering Cyborg's 15-damage welder, followed by 10-damage harmbatons and fire extinguishers. It takes 60 damage - 4 welder hits or 6 harmbatons/extinguishings - to cause a de-hulking. This is assuming no armor.
The only ranged threat they can present to a hulk is a secborg laser. That only happens if the AI is rogued, the borg is emagged, or VERY RARELY if an illegal module is installed.
... Speaking of robotics, I've realized that hulks aren't best compared to flypeople or lizards or slimepeople.
The mechanized exosuit shares the ability to stun and heavily harm at will, to break down walls and r-walls via RNG and patience with fist or drill, the immunity to stuns, and the status as an "endgame" combat upgrade except you can spread hulk to everyone or nobody whereas exosuits are one-at-a-time, require more effort and resources, and are limited in number. And just like how literally nobody has ever cared that mechs harm the humans in them when they're destroyed slightly if they're being used to grief or antagonize....
tl;dr - Hulk is the Gygax of Genetics
Antagonist Hulks are on more even footing with Cyborgs, but still have a HUGE advantage.
You are either robust enough that you can win with your stun immunity, or you're not robust enough to deserve to.