Hiding Bodies in Escalated Fights

Stickymayhem · Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:17 pm

So as it stands, the maximum you can do to someone as a non-antag is kill them and leave them somewhere like a hallway or medbay where their body will be found. This is obviously not a permanent solution, but it does keep people in the round and prevent shitters from going too far all the time.

Removing this would reduce admin intervention, allow people to permanently end conflicts and be more punishing to people who start shit. At the moment if a clown is being a complete cunt you can't do much in the way of permanently stopping them. Everyone might be less inclined to start shit if their crewmembers aren't as forgiving.

This may require some minor adjustment in how we handle escalation though, in particular being harder on those who deliberately bait conflicts and then kill the person they were fucking with.

What do you guys think? Open discussion, keep it chill.

Poll is just to gauge opinion and not an absolute decision maker.

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:37 am #93122

Not hiding the body just leads to that dude coming back for his valids or you ending up in perma for shit he may have started in the first place.

Then again people are going to try and abuse this like everything else.

onleavedontatme · Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:17 am

Just going to repost everything I said in our asay conversation

If someone has been trying to kill me, or has killed me, I'm going to space them because otherwise they'll come back and kill me again/fuck with me more/continue ruining my round.

The "no spacing bodies" thing is an awkward, unnatural rule that doesn't really click with what makes sense both IC or OOC.

IC you wouldn't want your murderer to come back to life just because space god said he isn't a syndicate agent.

OOC you don't want to keep getting fucked up by the guy, and for the guy you killed it's functionally identical to be permad/uncloned/spaced.

Also the rule mostly serves to protect banbaiters/griefers/whiny people who can't handle that they got their shit slapped after fucking with someone else.

EDIT: I was gonna look back at the logs to refresh my memory on shit and I just realized this whole discussion/argument spawned out of the use of the world valid in PM, funny how things work

Incomptinence · Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:38 am

Two regular dudes hellbent on killing each other is a pain enough to deal with as security (stop hitting him while I cuff him you ass) making the fight practically eternal because each party is bound by rules and has to see the other cloned just prolongs the suffering for all parties involved. The brawlers obviously have something displeasing them anyway why should we bring an unhappy dude back to go postal?

Also WELL HE BROUGHT YOU TO MEDBAY will actually mean something in disputes when people aren't indebted to do so or get banned.

I would also like to do away with the prohibition on chaplain and chef disposing of non suicided/morgue'd corpses because disposing bloody stinking corpses should be an integral part of their job. Sometimes it is almost like the authorities are using the gibber and cremator more than the people who work there getting rid of antags well mainly changelings but you get the point.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:22 am #93158

Depends on what the person was doing

If I know they are going to come back and fuck with me or other people again, I should have leeway to hide the body

Tunder · Post by **Tunder** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:25 am #93193

I regularly see Sec hiding bodies in random lockers all over the station, and that really isn't too cool, but aside from that I guess it's never been an issue.

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:33 am #93243

If you're voting no could you explain why?

I can't think of a good reason that this is a thing other than that it's already a thing.

Tunder · Post by **Tunder** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:54 am #93246

Stickymayhem wrote:If you're voting no could you explain why?

I can't think of a good reason that this is a thing other than that it's already a thing.

Because 'escalated fights' is hard to define, and 'Hiding bodies in escalated fights' will translate into 'Shoving bodies into maint/brig lockers at will' which, outside Ling and Rev, has always been powergamey shit and largely derided by the community.

onleavedontatme · Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:01 am

Tunder wrote:
Stickymayhem wrote:If you're voting no could you explain why?

I can't think of a good reason that this is a thing other than that it's already a thing.
Because 'escalated fights' is hard to define, and 'Hiding bodies in escalated fights' will translate into 'Shoving bodies into maint/brig lockers at will' which, outside Ling and Rev, has always been powergamey shit and largely derided by the community.

>Not cloning the guy trying to kill you is powergaming

It doesn't even remotely make sense from an RP standpoint to bring the person back to life unless SS13 is populated by pacifist monks or something.

firecage · Post by **firecage** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:04 am #93249

I would say keep it like it currently is, BUT, work on it case by case instead of just saying: "No, don't do this."

Tokiko2 · Post by **Tokiko2** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:09 am #93251

I voted no. I think that people who tend to escalate conflicts into murder as a non antag are probably not the best players. No reason to give these players the ability to remove someone else permanently from the round, possibly for some fight they baited someone else into by stealing their equipment or ID.

This is assuming this is only about escalated fights and not obvious, unprovoked murder attempts.

Tunder · Post by **Tunder** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:10 am #93252

Kor wrote:
Tunder wrote:
Stickymayhem wrote:If you're voting no could you explain why?

I can't think of a good reason that this is a thing other than that it's already a thing.
Because 'escalated fights' is hard to define, and 'Hiding bodies in escalated fights' will translate into 'Shoving bodies into maint/brig lockers at will' which, outside Ling and Rev, has always been powergamey shit and largely derided by the community.
>Not cloning the guy trying to kill you is powergaming

It doesn't even remotely make sense from an RP standpoint to bring the person back to life unless SS13 is populated by pacifist monks or something.

I play Sec. Often. I make every attempt to either clone and perma or borg an opponent to keep them in the round. Sec's job isn't to buttblast antagonists or greytide, it's to keep the peace and uphold the Law. Containing a downed enemy, antag or otherwise, while keeping them in the round is not hard and it doesn't take much effort, as an antag is just doing his job, and tiders will normally be ignored by admins or worse if they lie to imply shitcurity in an ahelp after getting their just deserts and being tossed in Perma or the gulag.

In the rounds where it needs to be okay to store enemy corpses, like Rev, it's already commonplace and accepted behavior, so I don't see what the problem is.

If you're talking about non-antags hiding the bodies of other assumed nonantags, that is pure shit and will never fly, I don't see what the discussion is. Making shitters valid is one thing, entirely removing them from the round is another.

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

Tokiko2 wrote:I voted no. I think that people who tend to escalate conflicts into murder as a non antag are probably not the best players. No reason to give these players the ability to remove someone else permanently from the round, possibly for some fight they baited someone else into by stealing their equipment or ID.

This is assuming this is only about escalated fights and not obvious, unprovoked murder attempts.

Quoted for truth

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:26 am #93272

Kor wrote:Just going to repost everything I said in our asay conversation

If someone has been trying to kill me, or has killed me, I'm going to space them because otherwise they'll come back and kill me again/fuck with me more/continue ruining my round.

The "no spacing bodies" thing is an awkward, unnatural rule that doesn't really click with what makes sense both IC or OOC.

IC you wouldn't want your murderer to come back to life just because space god said he isn't a syndicate agent.

OOC you don't want to keep getting fucked up by the guy, and for the guy you killed it's functionally identical to be permad/uncloned/spaced.

Also the rule mostly serves to protect banbaiters/griefers/whiny people who can't handle that they got their shit slapped after fucking with someone else.

EDIT: I was gonna look back at the logs to refresh my memory on shit and I just realized this whole discussion/argument spawned out of the use of the world valid in PM, funny how things work

Not to emptyquote but this pretty much says it all.

If someone is unnecessarily escalating fights this should be pretty clear to the admins. ...right?

Stickymayhem · Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:17 pm

I agree but intent is always harder to prove and easier to whine about than concrete actions.

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:08 pm #93300

I don't think this is something that should be laid out in concrete. There are situations where you need to brain someone with a toolbox and turn them into burgers for the shit they've done. But the majority of 'escalated fights' start with stupid petty shit like two assistants fighting over a toolbelt, that really doesn't need to end in someone getting chucked into space.

If you make "Yes you can hide the body of anyone you kill" the norm instead of the exception meant for truly egregious shitters, you're sending a message of emancipation to the CAN I KILL SEC FOR TASING ME?? crowd for whom basically all interactions are seen as hostile escalation.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:26 pm #93302

This would lead to abuse and headaches, so no.

onleavedontatme · Fri Jun 05, 2015 3:50 pm

Why is everyone acting like we'd just let people "escalate" from a punch to spacing someone? We already have pretty reasonable standards for killing someone, we wouldnt suddenly throw them out.

Youd be banned for killing sec now, you'd be banned for killing and spacing then. If someone has generally pushed hard enough to deserve getting killed they probably deserve space as well.

In the most fringe scenarios where for some reason it's okay to murder someone but not space them it takes 1 second for the admin to warp their body back and say "please get them cloned"

tl;dr Why do people think we'd throw escalation rules out?

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:38 pm #93344

My first idea is that everyone just stops being faggots to each other but that's not going to happen, obviously.

rdght91 · Post by **rdght91** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:43 pm #93360

I'm voting no but at the same time when someone is chasing you down and ignoring your attempts at de-escalation admins should liberally authorize players to space/hide them. The whole drama with my ban was because I was in a situation where I was dealing with a griefer who would not de-escalate no matter what I said to them, so they're really needs to be common sense instead of "Lol rulez r rulez" when players are put in no-win situation with someone who just will not stop attacking or trying to sic others on you.

Durkel · Post by **Durkel** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 6:50 pm #93371

I think this policy could be problematic in that if you give someone a inch they will take a mile. Something that has the potential to be abused like this will give the those the line tow Another excuse to do things. I've seen people kill each other over really minor things, such as a tool belt or a stray disarm. That being said, There are situations where people should be removed permanently from the round. A repeat offender should lose his protection to being hidden or spaced much in the same way security will permabrig people who constantly cause trouble. And let's be honest, if you're dumb enough to come back a second time to get killed, you deserve to get spaced.

Loonikus · Post by **Loonikus** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:27 pm #93377

Voted no. If you have been forced to use lethal force to defwnd yourself, thats all well and good, but once the attacker is dead than the escalation of force stops. Once the escalation of force stops, you can't keep trying to fuck with the person or else its you who is picking the fight. By hiding/destroying the body you are no longer acting in your own defense, but you are now maliciously acting against someone.

If your excuse is that your afraid they will come back for you, than your actions are no longer defensive. You are acting offensively on what could happen, and if preemptive strikes were allowed I'd gas the entire station every round because I can practically promise that someone is gonna try to kill me.

I still wouldn't make it ban worthy, but I'd still probably subtlemessage the detective and sic him on your ass.

mrpain · Post by **mrpain** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:38 pm #93381

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

QuartzCrystal · Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:06 pm

I changed my vote to yes. I was fucking with someone as clown and they then hid my body after they killed me for the second time, I deserved it.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:04 pm #93596

There's two ways to do this:
1. Allow us to space people that start fights with us (by hiding we are using the term to including hiding bodies in space, right?)
2. Once a fight has ended with the defeat of the one of the fighters then thats it. Conflict is over absolutely, no coming back for petty revenge once you're cloned, go return to what you were doing before the fight.

On the one hand:
1. Runs the risk of people getting space for pretty petty shit, you say we can ban people for doing so without good enough reason but that requires drawing a line and then we're going to get people toeing the line.
2. Doesn't have this risk but does have the risk that people are going to end up starting shit with the other person anyway, or they'll start shit with someone else.

On the other:
1. People are going to start less shit when they know that being a cunt is going to earn them a one way trip the derelict
2. Provides a safety net to shit cocks, because they know that if they start shit with someone and lose there'll still be a good chance that they'll get back into the round people will be more inclined to start shit with other people. It also prevents people taking IC action because of OOC rules.

For these reasons, I'd prefer option one.
I'd rather run the risk of getting spaced for a shitty reason than have to suffer a smug cunt to live on to tard around the map like they shit gold and their BO gives them an untouchable shield, because they super buddy up high will protect them from retribution.

Incomptinence · Sat Jun 06, 2015 11:53 pm

How about de-escalation requires some form of communication to tell the other party you will stop?

Words should mean something.

rdght91 · Post by **rdght91** » Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:18 am #93726

Incomptinence wrote:How about de-escalation requires some form of communication to tell the other party you will stop?

Words should mean something.

Almost no one ever de-escalates, ever though. The kind of people that go around causing trouble just use the opportunity of you talking to them to try to disable you, so you can't afford to give them a chance half the time, and if you do and they gank you, you get "IC ISSUE" and if you gank them, it's a ban.

Incomptinence · Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:27 am

Well a cry uncle rule should apply then. Other guy cries mum you fuck off unless he keeps fucking with you afterward or is obviously antag / murderer something.

Let the other shit talk you IC "angry" griffshit.

Shadowlight213 · Sun Jun 07, 2015 10:45 am

I'm actually going to vote yes on this one. However, I think that there should be some limits. I think all fights should have the opportunity for de-escalation at all times.
If the other guy tries to flee, don't hunt him down, he surrendered, if he comes back feel free to space him. If they keep fighting to the death, and you win, sure space them.
The truth is, that a lot of the really shitty players are pretty damn robust. It just feel like they are going to start preying on players who they know they can robust easily, and then they'll immediately space, regardless of the reason.

Edit: I just realized this is pretty much exactly what incompitence posted.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sun Jun 07, 2015 3:32 pm #93879

>admins voting yes

It's like you want more work.

Tunder · Post by **Tunder** » Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:51 pm #93956

Scott wrote:>admins voting yes

It's like you want more work.

No, this is to avoid more work.

'Halp admins clown griffing me'

'IC issue, kill him and shut up.'

It's essentially gonna make every round more like Rev in that shitters will be murderboning people through baiting and intentional escalation and admins won't have to do anything.

Maybe this isn't the Sticky's intent, but with a policy this vague it is the only possible outcome.

onleavedontatme · Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:20 pm

Except we already allow death for escalation and not every round is a giantic rev blood bath so I dunno why you think spacing people will suddenly make it one.

I mean it's against the rules to break into a workplace and then kill people if they try and throw you out why would baiting suddenly be allowed?

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:50 am #94103

>No, this is to avoid more work.

No, admins would have to look into these spacings when they occur and make sure said spacing was preceded by an acceptable amount of escalation, which usually requires a lot of questioning to not only the involved parties but witnesses and looking at the logs as well. Existing written policy doesn't explicitly forbid spacing someone anyway, only that a conflict must escalate legitimately and if the unwritten policy of spacing/removing someone permanently is revoked officially, then existing admin procedures are still in effect. There would be no less investigation being done and it would be a mistake to think that.

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:11 am #94106

imblyings wrote:>No, this is to avoid more work.

No, admins would have to look into these spacings when they occur and make sure said spacing was preceded by an acceptable amount of escalation, which usually requires a lot of questioning to not only the involved parties but witnesses and looking at the logs as well. Existing written policy doesn't explicitly forbid spacing someone anyway, only that a conflict must escalate legitimately and if the unwritten policy of spacing/removing someone permanently is revoked officially, then existing admin procedures are still in effect. There would be no less investigation being done and it would be a mistake to think that.

At the moment there is no IC solution for a continued escalation that will just never end, with people dying, getting cloned and going back out to fight with each other endlessly. These always end in OOC intervention.

If this were implemented the players would have a way to prevent this themselves, and though there would still be adminhelps asking whether being spaced was reasonable, it's less likely than in those annoying endless fights between immortals.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:39 am #94111

Well like I was saying, there's nothing in policy that explicitly forbids spacing right now. It's just been assumed among admins that spacing someone or completely removing someone from the round has crossed the line for non-antags or rule 1. This unwritten policy then trickled down into players and that's what the players are now running with. We could roll with the spacing policy being officially written down into policy and see how the players act.

I've also tried just talking to both parties to stop fucking with each other instead of one party being removed- compensate with badmin powers anything they might have lost- and to start with a clean slate with each other. Like, if there is a resolution where both people aren't shitlers and just people who were in an argument that got out of hand, the best ending would be to have them both playing spessmens happily again. Sadly though, both times I've tried this the hostilities resumed.

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:05 am #94126

I'd prefer if fights ended in the tougher person killing the worse one and then everything is resolved.

There's been a general backlash against !!!H U G B O X!!! and a fair few people want more lethality too. That would be a way to do it.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:15 am #94127

What I'm trying to say, I guess, is that this shouldn't be seen as a means of resolving a situation that might even replace admin intervention. What it should be seen as is simply another rung in the ladder of how conflicts escalate. Yes players couldn't step on that rung before but now they can but like all the rungs, players need to ensure that they've escalated properly before doing so.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:23 pm #94238

So shitty players are allowed to space people now if they bait someone into a conflict. This is what this policy enables.

muh robustness

rdght91 · Post by **rdght91** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:09 am #94388

Incomptinence wrote:Well a cry uncle rule should apply then. Other guy cries mum you fuck off unless he keeps fucking with you afterward or is obviously antag / murderer something.

Let the other shit talk you IC "angry" griffshit.

It never happens in practice though. I've had multiple incidents where I told the guy, "Just walk away, I'll forget everything and leave me alone/do your job/let me do my job, I don't want to fight you" and I ended up getting killed/jailed or if I did win, getting banned for removing them from the round when I made their body unrecoverable. If security is overwhelmed, greytiders that know how to toe the line are at the advantage given the current state of the rules.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 6:53 pm #95989

Yes, only if it applies to the initial victim. The dude starting shit should not "escalate" from the guy defending himself into spacing the body.

Of course this will just lead to the initial party "he slipped me" or "he stole my stuff so I shoved him" so i'm voting no.

Screemonster · Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:32 pm

Reminded of this vid I posted elsewhere:

But really, some people really do act like it's an invisible shield and use the fact that they'll be cloned to act like shit with impunity. If they come back after being cloned the first time and continue to pick fights because "muh escalations" or "muh revenge" then why the fuck would anyone in their right mind let them get cloned again?
I'm with Malkevin, if starting shit (especially as a non-antag) nets you the risk of being tossed out an airlock, starting shit is going to become a lot less common.

The biggest objection I keep seeing here is that people will use it to killbait but that's already against the rules. Players ahelp it, admins stick notes on the perpetrator, pattern emerges, and wham goes the banhammer. Job done.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:38 pm #96112

If both parties are escalating to lethal violence then eh, so be it. Let them stunlocker weldspace them.

Not ideal, since some people WILL bait people into it, but making everything OOC is pretty shitty.
The person who started the conflict (doesn't have to be the one to start the damage) should typically be given less leniency then the other guy though.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Tue Jun 16, 2015 3:00 am #96140

Gentleman's agreement has always been that you get a person cloned or treated once.
If they come back for round two then all bets are off.

In a situation where they're obviously just trying to outright murder you (someone wordlessly running up to you with a robust weapon for example, or obvious antag-ery) you can skip directly to spacing do not pass go do not collect 200 griff bucks.

Voted yes.

And also a secret shadowvote for Ban people who adminhelp "He hid my corpse!" after getting dunked a second time by the same person

Should you be able to hide bodies in escalated conflicts?