Is there a reason to keep "Lings have killed someone" fluff?

[Pandarsenic]

I'm just going to flat-out state: I feel like that's only there to encourage validhunting, force them to fight the crew to live, etc.

I would much rather see a thing like Bay does where it's the canonical first known contact or at least something where the changelings are treated as diverse individuals, just like traitors, so that it isn't "FIND STUN KILL CUFF GIB/INCINERATE"

Is there any reason to keep it that way OTHER than to discourage friendly antagonists?

[Steelpoint]

Even if you did get that line removed, it won't change anything since Changelings are, by definition, a non-human hostile intruder. Station AIs have no obligation to protect them, and in fact have a obligation to contain them to prevent possible harm since Changelings are a (afaik) know hostile entity that eats people. Humans on the other hand really dislike having a human eating monster on board their station.

If a Changeling wants to play the 'friendly' card, it takes the very real risk of someone, correctly, deciding to kill/warn/avoid it because it is a monster. Trying to kill a Changeling is a very real reaction that would occur. Since there is no restriction on antag knowledge, everyone knows what Changelings are capable of.

[Lovecraft]

Why not just make Changelings a playable species?
While we're at it we can provide protection for the Cult of Elder Gods followers under the new, fluff approved Religious Tolerance laws by Nanotrasen.
Also we should work on the treaty between the Wizard Federation and the rest of the

I don't understand why we let people who don't antagonize play antagonists.

These are just two of the stupid, irrational thoughts that I type that I delete.
I wanted to frame them here forever so you all could see.

[Pandarsenic]

Technically, it should be possible for a changeling to go its whole existence without killing anyone, maybe? I think? Per current mechanics?

Since DNA sting became thing, anyway.

[Saegrimr]

Technically, it should be possible for a changeling to go its whole existence without killing anyone, maybe? I think? Per current mechanics?

Since DNA sting became thing, anyway.

To get their greentext? No.
Unless they got super lucky and rolled nothing but steal objectives and no assassinate/debrains.

The purpose of changelings is to appear like a human, if they want to be "friendly" then they should act like a human and not get caught being a changeling.
Or you know, turn off antag roles.

[Incomptinence]

Changelings pretty much always have an assassinate objective. Them being nonhuman is enough in my mind, the presumed pre-existing murder means lawsets other than asimov also go after them innately (antimov kills them anyway) and you could get nonsense like AIs loop holing that the changeling is not itself even if they one human'd it a second ago.

There are plenty of ways to place a fake, the changeling name also refers to mythical baby snatchers that would leave a fraud in place of the actual babe. Also changelings are so hard to discern from humans they could just integrate into human society near seamlessly without replacing anyone.

[mrpain]

If someone doesnt want to go fuck shit up they shouldnt have their antag settings on.

I'm getting really tired of the "peaceful antag" thing. Antags who dont do anything drag the round on and make it boring.

[callanrockslol]

I'm getting really tired of the "peaceful antag" thing. Antags who dont do anything drag the round on and make it boring.

This is the most important thing people should be paying attention to.

Antagonists are antagonists, they are the bad guys, and while they don't always have to kill everyone or can be covert they have a responsibility to cause some sort of trouble or untick it.

[Reviire]

My various cents.

I think this policy only encourages valid hunting. It doesn't give a changeling any ability whatsoever to even work with the AI. Under asimov, the AI would still have to kill the changeling if ordered. But under other lawsets, this will not always be the case.

It wouldn't allow friendly antags all the time, because some AI's may just kill them on the spot, but they don't have to.

Also, knowing the changelings objectives would be meta, wouldn't it?

[bandit]

To me this is sort of a symptom of a different problem. The fluff made sense under oldling because oldlings were scary and paranoia-inducing and something you want off your station as soon as possible. Even with armblade/armor/whatever, it is possible to be on a station with newlings without anything bad happening. This isn't a problem with policy, it is a problem with newling.

[Scott]

If someone doesnt want to go fuck shit up they shouldnt have their antag settings on.

I'm getting really tired of the "peaceful antag" thing. Antags who dont do anything drag the round on and make it boring.

Go fist yourself. I play non aggressive antag and I make things "fun" for everyone involved. Go ahead and say that you only want more combat.

[Lovecraft]

What's fun for you isn't fun for other people.
Some people like Nuke Ops teams that act like terrorists, and others prefer the Ops come on station as an elite Poker Champion team who want to bet their shuttle for the disk.
I have a frequently rotating view on peaceful antags. Some rounds I've pulled out my gun and lasered the person sitting across my desk as Captain for telling me they're a traitor, and other times I've almost had to work against the station to keep our non-harmful teamwork a secret.
When it comes to Changelings though, I've cemented my policy in the flavor text you want removed.
I'm not opposed to change, but what would it even be to? What else makes sense for an antag that's meant to become other people?

[Aurx]

I'm just going to flat-out state: I feel like that's only there to encourage validhunting, force them to fight the crew to live, etc.

I would much rather see a thing like Bay does where it's the canonical first known contact or at least something where the changelings are treated as diverse individuals, just like traitors, so that it isn't "FIND STUN KILL CUFF GIB/INCINERATE"

Is there any reason to keep it that way OTHER than to discourage friendly antagonists?

Is there any reason to remove it? You haven't made any clear argument for removing it that I can see.

[Pandarsenic]

I'm just going to flat-out state: I feel like that's only there to encourage validhunting, force them to fight the crew to live, etc.

I would much rather see a thing like Bay does where it's the canonical first known contact or at least something where the changelings are treated as diverse individuals, just like traitors, so that it isn't "FIND STUN KILL CUFF GIB/INCINERATE"

Is there any reason to keep it that way OTHER than to discourage friendly antagonists?

Is there any reason to remove it? You haven't made any clear argument for removing it that I can see.

Fluff-wise, it's no longer congruent with mechanics and it closes off RP opportunities the changelings would otherwise have with the AI and at times with the crew.

[Aurx]

Fluff-wise, it's no longer congruent with mechanics and it closes off RP opportunities the changelings would otherwise have with the AI and at times with the crew.

That's an argument for removing it, but still not an argument for

I would much rather see a thing like Bay does where it's the canonical first known contact or at least something where the changelings are treated as diverse individuals, just like traitors, so that it isn't "FIND STUN KILL CUFF GIB/INCINERATE"

[Ikarrus]

If you want to change this it will also have to go through coderbus as well. The current fluff is supported by code.

[Pandarsenic]

I would much rather see a thing like Bay does where it's the canonical first known contact or at least something where the changelings are treated as diverse individuals, just like traitors, so that it isn't "FIND STUN KILL CUFF GIB/INCINERATE"

it closes off RP opportunities the changelings would otherwise have with the AI and at times with the crew.

[Lovecraft]

This whole threat implies this is a roleplay server.

[Ikarrus]

That's because it is.

[Cipher3]

This whole threat implies this is a roleplay server.

http://www.tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewto ... =33&t=1296

[Aurx]

I would much rather see a thing like Bay does where it's the canonical first known contact or at least something where the changelings are treated as diverse individuals, just like traitors, so that it isn't "FIND STUN KILL CUFF GIB/INCINERATE"

it closes off RP opportunities the changelings would otherwise have with the AI and at times with the crew.

"An alternative would be good" and "We should use this alternative" are very different things. You've made an argument for "An alternative would be good", but that doesn't in any way support using your proposed alternative instead of another.

[Pandarsenic]

???

Current: "Changelings killed a person to replace them so they could get onto SS13."

Proposed: "Changelings are a diverse group who may or may not have killed a person in the past."

Advantages: More RP opportunities, does not dictate the player's character to them, less encouragement of GOTTA STROKE MY MURDERECTION FOR THAT SWEET VALID ASS.

Disadvantages: Encourages friendly antags? That's sort of a disadvantage?

[Raven776]

You were also advocating it being the canonical first encounter every changeling round, and that's a jarring difference between how changelings would be handled and every other antag would be handled. Right now there is no set policy against a HoS or Captain or even an assistant knowing what a changeling is capable of (and for good reason, shit like that would get word around pretty damn fast), but the same is true for blob, alien, traitors, wizard, and anything else. And these things exist because there exists no IC route in the middle of a round to FIGURE these things out. No 'research' can be done on a blob to figure out what it's weak to, you can't actually figure out an alien's weakness to fire without opening up a wiki page or having one captive (which will never happen) and any work done to do so would not be kept between rounds, the knowledge lost. Making the changeling rounds a massive snowflake in that players are forced to not know of them without doing the same thing for wizard (why did a gun just appear at my feet? It must be maintenance robots) blob (better go hit this thing with a spear because if I take out a welder, admins will boink me for metagame) and any other odd occurrence on the station (blinking red multitool? Guy randomly got leaped on by an alien but then it died mysteriously? Odd beacon found in maintenance? What the fuck is the station's power going out for? What does rampant brand intelligence mean?) would be just begging players to slip up and get boinked as there is no set precedent for setting this level of OOC knowledge from possibly applicable IC knowledge.

Just taking away the killing people fluff would be fine with me, but if you're going to take such a heavy hit to metaknowledge, at least make sure it's consistent with how metaknowledge is handled across the board.

[Pandarsenic]

I would enjoy that, to some degree, but there's literally no way the server as a whole would consent to actually making it a first contact scenario instead of a first robusting scenario, so... realistically, at least we can open up RP options by loosening the fluff not to dictate your character. I figure that should be reserved for things that are the basic definition of a roll - traitors are syndicate traitors, nuke ops are syndicate teams sent to nuke, cultists serve Nar-sie above all else, etc.

[Steelpoint]

As I said, it does not matter if the fluff is changed or not. Changelings are free game to kill for everyone on the station, which is rare since normally AIs have to stand down.

You will have to change the rules to make players not kill a Changeling unless they are doing something bad.

While this scenario might encourage a 'rp' approach, though I personally believe this will change nothing as neither the crew nor the changeling has an incentive to play the 'friendly' antag.

[mrpain]

If someone doesnt want to go fuck shit up they shouldnt have their antag settings on.

I'm getting really tired of the "peaceful antag" thing. Antags who dont do anything drag the round on and make it boring.

Go fist yourself. I play non aggressive antag and I make things "fun" for everyone involved. Go ahead and say that you only want more combat.

Making the round "fun" is fine, sometimes better than fucking shit up.

I should have worded that to "making the round more interesting'.

Point is, if you aren't going to use your antag status/free pass to do anything, don't take it. You're holding up the round and taking it from someone who could have used it better.

Now I'm not saying we should power through every round, slow, long rounds are fun too, but rounds that just drag out longer than they ought to ultimately hurt the server.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Disadvantages: Encourages friendly antags? That's sort of a disadvantage?

It doesn't encourage friendly antags. It only ALLOWS for them to exist.

Fund it. Versatility is great, guys.