Borging perma prisoners

[Fatal]

So, round today whereby I allowed a perma prisoner, who I actually wanted executing (I was the Captain), to be borged, on the condition that he was a janiborg, because the station was covered in blood from the recover of the body he shot and spaced

I didn't talk to him personally about this, I merely informed the AI, and the officer who was going to get him borged, and nobody seem to mind nor complain, and 5 minutes later, I had a janiborg cleaning up the station

Few minutes later, I get messaged by the admins explaining I can't order a borg to be a certain module, which, alright, fair enough, if it's a volunteer, that would be a major dick move, although upon explaining why I did so, the admin agreed in this situation, my ordering of it was okay


I propose that if you are getting borged as an alternative to being in permabrig or gulag (or execution), you have no say in what module you become if people decide that you should be a certain module, you are being put back in the round when otherwise, you would be sat in perma, or the gulag, or simply executed and removed from the round entirely, being borged used to be a lesser punishment, not a RIGHT to every perma prisoner

[Steelpoint]

I agree, if someone who otherwise would have been thrown in perma for the rest of the round, or out the airlock, is instead given the option of being borged and kept in the round, they at least have to accept whatever module the ranking Officer orders them to select.

People will complain about "muh silicon rights" but the fact is Security decided to not toss your traitor hide out the airlock, the least they can do is make sure you select a module they think is worthwhile.

[Reimoo]

Usually as Captain or HoS I opt to have prisoners borged rather than perma'd or executed if the circumstances permit it.

But then I get called a comdom because I'm force borging people. I don't understand why people (especially the AI) start throwing a bitchfit because I'm trying to keep people in the round.

[paprika]

You can choose what module borgs start with by using a multitool on the frame right?

[Fatal]

I don't think so, I'm pretty sure that is simply for naming it, and determining if it is slaved to the AI or not, and if it is locked down upon creation

From the policy:

Ordering a cyborg to pick a particular module without an extreme need for a particular module or a prior agreement is both an unreasonable and an obnoxious order.


The person in question, DID want to be a cyborg, he was NOT forced to be one, however, because he murdered someone, I didn't want him to be one, as punishment, you may think that's a dick move, but, as Captain, that was my decision that I am allowed to make, however, because the person he murdered was cloned, and they agreed to it, I agreed to the borging with a condition

So why is the Captain not allowed to choose what module he picks? I can choose if he lives or dies, or if he sits in perma for the rest of the round, but I cannot pick his module when he gets borged?

[Steelpoint]

I'm amusing that policy is to prevent a roboticist/RD from randomly ordering a borg to go a module for no good reason. I also would assume that in a case of Security borging a perma prisoner that a exception be granted.

[damiac]

Yeah, this definitely should be allowed, but I guess technically by the word of the rules it's kinda not. So maybe that policy needs a little addendum about when you're borged as an alternative to execution/perma.

[Fatal]

I'm amusing that policy is to prevent a roboticist/RD from randomly ordering a borg to go a module for no good reason. I also would assume that in a case of Security borging a perma prisoner that a exception be granted.

Well, apparently it is not a clear cut case, hence I brought it to policy

As I said, I was asked by the admins why I ordered it to be a janiborg, and "I'm the Captain and he is a perma prisoner" didn't seem good enough, although, in all fairness, I'm not sure if the admin okay'd it because I was the Captain and I was putting someone back in the round, or because the blood was his fault and I wanted it cleaning up

I do believe the policy should be edited slightly, if you are a perma prisoner, tough luck, you get to be whatever module people decide

[Saegrimr]

The agreement to be a janiborg was made before he was being sliced open, right?
He could have declined beforehand.

[Fatal]

I don't believe he actually agreed to it, but the AI, and everyone else involved, did

He had lost his headset due to spouting down the radio to get the AI to save him constantly, so he wasn't in the loop

[Psyentific]

He did not actually agree to it, but by that point his control over the situation was long gone.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Just let captain have the ability to blow that borg if it doesn't do what it's told. Basically reverting borging to execution. So borg, per silicon policy, can still choose whatever module, but captain can blow it if he wants to.

[Saegrimr]

Seems kind borderline to me, considering it was either that or perma/death.
I'm guessing the admin that handled it at the time, felt the same way.

[Fatal]

Its borderline, sure, that's why I made this thread

I want a clear cut answer: If you are going to be borged instead of permabrig, you can be forced to pick a module: Yes, or No

[QuartzCrystal]

I don't think this is entirely borderline or that bad. I mean, a lot of borg players ask the AI/humans which module they should go for anyways. When you're being borged because they don't want to kill/perma you, you should just be happy they're borging you and go along with whatever orders they give you after.

We'll need a ruling here, but my opinion is that Yes, it should be allowed.

[damiac]

Or, at the very least, never offer that player the option to be a borg, just go for execution. Teach that punk to look a gift horse in the mouth next time.

It my (obviously important) opinion, when it's borg or death, you should be allowed to pick the borg type if you want. If they don't like it, well, there's always "or death".

[Pandarsenic]

Being a murdering shit had created need for a janiborg.

Other than that, it sounds like they had some degree of prior agreement?

[cedarbridge]

Or, at the very least, never offer that player the option to be a borg, just go for execution. Teach that punk to look a gift horse in the mouth next time.

It my (obviously important) opinion, when it's borg or death, you should be allowed to pick the borg type if you want. If they don't like it, well, there's always "or death".

There's really nothing stopping you from de-borging them except a couple burnt flashes.

[Timbrewolf]

Ages and ages ago didn't Scaredy say something about wanting to encourage this kind of thing?

Rather than having players get executed or just tossed into Permabrig to rot I'm pretty sure he had given a stamp of approval to borging them instead.

There was a discussion that followed afterward about whether a newly minted borg would be in the right to immediately try to arrest whoever ordered them to be borged for murder, and I don't recall if we ever had settled that.

This was from back when TLE was forum host.

[CreationPro]

Yes, An0n3, we have settled that, it's in the silicon policies. Better read them all thoroughly.

[Timbrewolf]

Good advice. Three definitions on a subclause, better call my lawyer.

Voluntary (and ONLY voluntary) debraining/ cyborgization is considered a nonharmful medical procedure.
1) Involuntary debraining and/or cyborgization is a fatally harmful act that Asimov silicons must attempt to stop at any point they're aware of it happening to a human.
2) If a player is forcefully cyborgized as a method of execution by station staff, retaliating against those involved as that cyborg because "THEY HARMED ME" or "THEY WERE EVIL AND MUST BE PUNISHED" or the like is a violation of Server Rule 1.
3) Should a player be cyborgized in circumstances they believe they should or they must retaliate under their laws, they should adminhelp their circumstances while being debrained or MMI'd if possible.

[mrpain]

Ordering a cyborg to pick a particular module without an extreme need for a particular module or a prior agreement is both an unreasonable and an obnoxious order.

Well, from an RP perspective, a workplace covered in blood is a huge health hazard, especially considering that many lethal diseases are spread via contact through blood.

From an OOC perspective, cleaning blood in the game is nearly a pointless task.

Where are we drawing the line?

[UtterNewbie]

From an OOC perspective, cleaning blood in the game is nearly a pointless task.

You're underestimating the psychological impact of such a mess. People are much more likely to vandalize an already vandalized house.

[imblyings]

Why not make a distinction between non-criminal borgs and criminal borgs?

If a person was already cleared for execution or perma and becomes a borg, does becoming a borg clear their crimes to the extent that they are protected under the same policies that non-criminal borgs are? Or are they treated as more expendable and obligated to any deals made for them to be borged?

[callanrockslol]

From an OOC perspective, cleaning blood in the game is nearly a pointless task.

You're underestimating the psychological impact of such a mess. People are much more likely to vandalize an already vandalized house.

This is SS13, not real life, vandalism isn't usually bothered with if the Janitor isn't around, the blood comes from people dying.

[Raven776]

I know the round you're talking about, and it's good to mention that at some point in the round the station was covered in disease infected monkey blood as well.

[Timbrewolf]

I've made some really obnoxious harmful diseases as a virologist that involve vomiting blood. When people afflicted with it throw up, blood or otherwise, that tile becomes another vector for the disease. Anyone not totally covered with the proper safety equipment has a chance to catch the disease from walking over it, and go on to puke up more fluids causing more people to be exposed, so on and so forth.

Does it happen often? Hell no. But it can.

Aside from diseases blood pools and trails are obvious signs of a crime and can lead you to more evidence. Keeping the station free from random bloodstains and shit helps sec tell the difference between what is just a bunch of people being dragged to medbay and what is a potential crime scene.

[Antimattercarp]

From an OOC perspective, cleaning blood in the game is nearly a pointless task.

You're underestimating the psychological impact of such a mess. People are much more likely to vandalize an already vandalized house.

This is SS13, not real life, vandalism isn't usually bothered with if the Janitor isn't around, the blood comes from people dying.

Psychology is key to human behavior, it applys to everything we do

[callanrockslol]

From an OOC perspective, cleaning blood in the game is nearly a pointless task.

You're underestimating the psychological impact of such a mess. People are much more likely to vandalize an already vandalized house.

This is SS13, not real life, vandalism isn't usually bothered with if the Janitor isn't around, the blood comes from people dying.

Psychology is key to human behavior, it applys to everything we do

It does not apply to SS13.

[Cipher3]

From an OOC perspective, cleaning blood in the game is nearly a pointless task.

You're underestimating the psychological impact of such a mess. People are much more likely to vandalize an already vandalized house.

This is SS13, not real life, vandalism isn't usually bothered with if the Janitor isn't around, the blood comes from people dying.

Psychology is key to human behavior, it applys to everything we do

It does not apply to SS13.

ツ

>A game heavily involved in up to 100 people interacting with each other in the center of crisis situations
>Can't be any psychology here