Banish all nsfw writing and art from the library officially?

[mrmelbert]

Bottom post of the previous page:

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 50#p587052 established policy stating admins can clean up the library of nsfw art from the gallery, but didn't say anything about punishing the illustrators of the art, and didn't say anything about the private / non-public art galleries.

So, I'm here to ask:

- Can admins warn/eventually ban people for repeatedly making nsfw art in the library?
- Is BORDERLINE nsfw art allowed if it's in the secure art gallery (the non-public gallery - the one in the curator's office)? Or is it up to admin discretion?
- Is written nsfw / rule 8 breaking stuff (WGW, smut about player characters, etc) allowed in the library adult section? (What's the purpose of the adult section if it breaks server rules?)
- Can admins step in to warn / eventually ban prolific smut authors?

Personally i'm of the opinion all smut should be banished and removed from the library, as it breaks rule 8 of the server and the only reason it's tolerated is because it's "tradition" to keep WGW (or worse) in the shelves for shitposting. I'm aware admins can already remove art and books if they think they're too bad but I'd like established policy on whether this kinda stuff is warnable or bannable.

As of late it seems to have been getting only worse and I think it should be stopped before it continues to develop, since it's pretty sickening stuff.

Thoughts?

[Armhulen]

And we still have no idea how much more of that is in our smut database

[PKPenguin321]

I do think it is worth considering that there is just enough humor in it to perhaps be worth keeping, because the smut isn't even itself an issue most of the time. That's not to say that it is necessarily GOOD humor, but look, here's really what this whole thing boils down to that nobody wants to say out loud:

Spoiler:

One day while Andy was masturbating, Woody got wood. He could no longer help himself! He watched as Andy stroked his juicy kawaii cock. He approached Andy which startled him and make him pee everywhere on the floor and on Woody too. Being drenched in his urine made him harder than ever! Woody: "Andy Senpai! I'm alive and I want to be INSIDE OF YOU." Andy: "Oh Woody Chan! I always knew you were alive! I want to stuff you up my kawaii ass!" Woody grabbed a bunch of flavored lube and rubbed it all over his head Woody: "Oh my! It's cherry flavored lube! Cherry is my favorite! Woody then stuffed his head up into Andy's tight ass! The other toys around the room watched intently as Woody shoved his head back and forth into Andy's nice ass, continuously making a squishy wet noise. The other toys also became aroused and they all gathered around Woody and Andy and started to urinate all over them, and then they started to masturbate. Andy: "Oh my goodness, Woody Chan! You are churning my insides up so well! Your nose is stimulating my prostate! OH YES! All the other toys became so aroused by this, that they could not help themselves anymore! They pushed Woody completely inside, and they all went inside. All of them wanted to be inside Andy's nice round ass. Andy: "No wait guys! My ass cannot hold this much! I'm getting so full! All the toys went inside of poor squirming Andy and pretty much, he was beyond full, and died from having his insides completely damaged. The mother came inside and found Andy, dead with a huge ass hemorrhage on his anus, with a HUGE belly full of toys.

[Misdoubtful]

I am reminded of a common tale regarding company vehicles.

Someone takes their company vehicle and uses it for personal use rather than business use.

Instead of just specifically punishing the offender and leaving it at that, it is decided everyone must now keep a log in their company vehicle documenting every detail of its use both for business and personal use.

No personal use is ever documented within years since the policy is enacted, only business use.

Doesn't sound right, does it? I'm still not convinced why this instance would also need be a blanket punishment policy of everything remotely close to it must go bye bye.

a lot of our community is underaged in spite of the rules so realistically we should treat it as such.

I'm gonna need some help wrapping my head around this, please.

[Armhulen]

I am reminded of a common tale regarding company vehicles.

Someone takes their company vehicle and uses it for personal use rather than business use.

Instead of just specifically punishing the offender and leaving it at that, it is decided everyone must now keep a log in their company vehicle documenting every detail of its use both for business and personal use.

No personal use is ever documented within years since the policy is enacted, only business use.

Doesn't sound right, does it? I'm still not convinced why this instance would also need be a blanket punishment policy of everything remotely close to it must go bye bye.

a lot of our community is underaged in spite of the rules so realistically we should treat it as such.

I'm gonna need some help wrapping my head around this, please.

read policy bus today, you'll get the gist of the angle

[Armhulen]

I do think it is worth considering that there is just enough humor in it to perhaps be worth keeping, because the smut isn't even itself an issue most of the time. That's not to say that it is necessarily GOOD humor, but look, here's really what this whole thing boils down to that nobody wants to say out loud:

Spoiler:

One day while Andy was masturbating, Woody got wood. He could no longer help himself! He watched as Andy stroked his juicy kawaii cock. He approached Andy which startled him and make him pee everywhere on the floor and on Woody too. Being drenched in his urine made him harder than ever! Woody: "Andy Senpai! I'm alive and I want to be INSIDE OF YOU." Andy: "Oh Woody Chan! I always knew you were alive! I want to stuff you up my kawaii ass!" Woody grabbed a bunch of flavored lube and rubbed it all over his head Woody: "Oh my! It's cherry flavored lube! Cherry is my favorite! Woody then stuffed his head up into Andy's tight ass! The other toys around the room watched intently as Woody shoved his head back and forth into Andy's nice ass, continuously making a squishy wet noise. The other toys also became aroused and they all gathered around Woody and Andy and started to urinate all over them, and then they started to masturbate. Andy: "Oh my goodness, Woody Chan! You are churning my insides up so well! Your nose is stimulating my prostate! OH YES! All the other toys became so aroused by this, that they could not help themselves anymore! They pushed Woody completely inside, and they all went inside. All of them wanted to be inside Andy's nice round ass. Andy: "No wait guys! My ass cannot hold this much! I'm getting so full! All the toys went inside of poor squirming Andy and pretty much, he was beyond full, and died from having his insides completely damaged. The mother came inside and found Andy, dead with a huge ass hemorrhage on his anus, with a HUGE belly full of toys.

people may laugh at this post but this is a valid argument

the one thing i'll say though is that copypastas happen and then are saved to books, not the other way around

[Misdoubtful]

I am reminded of a common tale regarding company vehicles.

Someone takes their company vehicle and uses it for personal use rather than business use.

Instead of just specifically punishing the offender and leaving it at that, it is decided everyone must now keep a log in their company vehicle documenting every detail of its use both for business and personal use.

No personal use is ever documented within years since the policy is enacted, only business use.

Doesn't sound right, does it? I'm still not convinced why this instance would also need be a blanket punishment policy of everything remotely close to it must go bye bye.

a lot of our community is underaged in spite of the rules so realistically we should treat it as such.

I'm gonna need some help wrapping my head around this, please.

read policy bus today, you'll get the gist of the angle

I'll try to tomorrow and edit this after then thanks for some direction!

[Not-Dorsidarf]

I am reminded of a common tale regarding company vehicles.

Someone takes their company vehicle and uses it for personal use rather than business use.

Instead of just specifically punishing the offender and leaving it at that, it is decided everyone must now keep a log in their company vehicle documenting every detail of its use both for business and personal use.

No personal use is ever documented within years since the policy is enacted, only business use.

Doesn't sound right, does it? I'm still not convinced why this instance would also need be a blanket punishment policy of everything remotely close to it must go bye bye.

a lot of our community is underaged in spite of the rules so realistically we should treat it as such.

I'm gonna need some help wrapping my head around this, please.

read policy bus today, you'll get the gist of the angle

I read the policybus and I can't help but wonder if by outright changing our rules because some people think that the majority of our players are underage might lose us the ability to shrug and go "no way to know aboutem" with the various limitations (which I cant remember the precise reasons for) that have restricted us to that 18+ rule. Because if you know so many people are breaking that rule unpunished that you have to change other rules to accomodate them, is it even a defense that it exists?

[Omega_DarkPotato]

I read the policybus and I can't help but wonder if by outright changing our rules because some people think that the majority of our players are underage might lose us the ability to shrug and go "no way to know aboutem" with the various limitations (which I cant remember the precise reasons for) that have restricted us to that 18+ rule. Because if you know so many people are breaking that rule unpunished that you have to change other rules to accommodate them, is it even a defense that it exists?

the problem is it's very hard to get an accurate number or percentage of how many people are underage here. We know there are some, but I A) don't think we should be catering to people who are breaking the rules B) trust/hope that those who are able to stay while underage are mature enough to fit in with their peers.

Making arguments over "oh there might be 50% of the playerbase that is underage!!!" seems like it'd be very hard to get strong evidence supporting that viewpoint.
Treat everyone like you'd like to be treated, as an adult, and don't do weird shit that would make their age, over or under 18, a problem. :shrug:

finding shittily written smut so long as it's properly tagged doesn't seem like "Weird shit that makes their age a problem" unless they're so under-age that this is their first exposure to the horror of the internet (sex is real (terrifying))
Personal viewpoint, but I think that there's much better reasons against smut than the possibility of underage players finding a shitty adult work. And improperly tagged content is already being eradicated as a result of the discussions and information in that policy-bus debate(?), Grimbo (we love him) has removed 45 improperly tagged/rope bondage featuring a goose/duplicate smut trash books, so the possibilities of "there might be smut in fiction" decrease daily.


also the english classes I took demand me to call any sort of "think of the children!!!" argument on an 18+ server a logical fallacy, which pointing that out means I win since all online debates are actually just politics-containment

[Jonathan Gupta]

if there are some under 18's they are more mature then me.

[cacogen]

people who are under 18 should both be purged and not catered to

[Jonathan Gupta]

people who are under 18 should both be purged and not catered to

lets not do id dox checks though g.

[Sacko]

Hmmm.. this here is a thinker all right. I agree with Cobby's argument regarding players. That can get a little strange and uncomfortable. Especially if it's distributed and read aloud is out the window I hope. I also think what pkpenguin said is just as true. These works are rude and in bad taste but are usually trying to shock you and gawk at. We do have an explicit ban on nsfw and this IS nsfw but this ship is so big and beautiful she won't sink in 100 years. Why mess with success?. This post will be dedicated to Kat Green, keep on rocking.

[JusticeGoat]

Why is this such a big deal, when is the last time any of you went to get a nsfw book from the libary? I say we just purge it and get on with our game, this has little to no effect over how anything plays.

[Agux909]

Why is this such a big deal, when is the last time any of you went to get a nsfw book from the libary? I say we just purge it and get on with our game, this has little to no effect over how anything plays.

But since it has little to no effect on how anything plays, the counter argument people are making is, why purge it? When leaving it there as it is and just banning/removing particular ahelped cases requires less effort.

[wesoda25]

I don’t really care to engage the “ban all smut” argument because I think it’s stupid, but I feel as if there were some actually good questions in the OP which haven’t really gotten the discussion they deserve.

What are the punishments for crossing lines? Repeat uploading of inappropriate content, or content so vile that it’s illegal anywhere you go. I won’t go into details, but not too long ago I was perusing the library and found a book describing a “fantasy” which went into some seriously fucked, very illegal shit. What is the punishment for this sort of thing?

At the time I was playing so I ahelped it, and I believe the admin who answered just deleted the book. I’m absolutely not blaming them for this response because afaik there is no available precedent or guidelines to go off of, but I personally felt the content of the book was so bad it could have warranted a ban for the player who uploaded it. I think having smut in the library is fine so long as it remains silly and absurd bullshit, but I think at the very least it would be good to establish some rules upon it.

(And no, this isn’t going to force jannies to actively police the library as a certain masochist has in the past. It will operate exactly as the anecdote I described: player sees something fucked, ahelps, admin takes action. Simple.)

[Agux909]

At the time I was playing so I ahelped it, and I believe the admin who answered just deleted the book. I’m absolutely not blaming them for this response because afaik there is no available precedent or guidelines to go off of, but I personally felt the content of the book was so bad it could have warranted a ban for the player who uploaded it. I think having smut in the library is fine so long as it remains silly and absurd bullshit, but I think at the very least it would be good to establish some rules upon it.

(And no, this isn’t going to force jannies to actively police the library as a certain masochist has in the past. It will operate exactly as the anecdote I described: player sees something fucked, ahelps, admin takes action. Simple.)

Exactly. The action taken depends on the personal case. Is this player new? Do they have previous notes/bans/history? Have they been ahelped multiple times about similar stuff? Etc.

[sinfulbliss]

Especially if it's distributed and read aloud is out the window I hope.

If someone reads ERP dialogue out load, it would clearly violate Rule 8 and they'd catch a ban, so that's not an issue IMO. The question is strictly about the policy around the books themselves and whether they should/shouldn't be in the game. Although even that is hazy because from the policy discussion, oranges mentioned an admin can nuke any book they don't think should be in the game, regardless of if it's allowed according to the rules.

Then again what even is a book that's "allowed"? We established non-con is banworthy. But it seems there is a who slew of adult books that fit under the "allowed-under-rules" category, which may not be allowed according to whatever admin happens to be curating.

[Tlaltecuhtli]

looking for hidden sex scenes in 900 uploaded copies of mein kampf/communist manifesto is what i want jannies to spend hours daily

[cacogen]

Why is this such a big deal, when is the last time any of you went to get a nsfw book from the libary? I say we just purge it and get on with our game, this has little to no effect over how anything plays.

Almost never, but that doesn't mean I won't in future. I usually forget it's there. You never see people reading things over the radio anymore. Plus the UI is so bad that it becomes impossible to find things unless you use the external archive on Statbus.

Just because you're a zoomer and can't appreciate the amount of worthwhile historical books in there amidst all the low quality shitposts and duplications doesn't mean it should all be deleted. It doesn't pose an issue to begin with, this thread was always a solution in search of a problem. Multiple people have already described how to deal with this as a means of harassment or ERP or whatever without having to resort to deleting the entire archive. Let players adminhelp books they take issue with! Which already happens, based on Wesoda's post.

In fact, even this low effort book is so cute and amusing I wouldn't want to see it destroyed by these glib zoomers: https://sb.atlantaned.space/library/7141

In summary: https://i.imgur.com/8J5HVC2.png

looking for hidden sex scenes in 900 uploaded copies of mein kampf/communist manifesto is what i want jannies to spend hours daily

Errorage (former website host) ran community-sourced curation a very long time ago. I don't think it was based on a particularly rigorous set of standards and would've missed some offending books but it did get rid of some bad books and duplications.

The archive will have ballooned so much by now that it seems like it would require a huge amount of people to curate again. I don't see why it needs to be done in the first place. If someone has an issue with a book, they can contact the admins about it. The rules should specify that books that admins find offensive for reasons that actually make sense (e.g. they harass players, they sexualise player characters in a way that makes the player uncomfortable, they somehow amount to ERP or whatever Cobby is on about) are against the rules and the person who uploaded them can be banned for them.

[Armhulen]

Especially if it's distributed and read aloud is out the window I hope.

If someone reads ERP dialogue out load, it would clearly violate Rule 8 and they'd catch a ban, so that's not an issue IMO. The question is strictly about the policy around the books themselves and whether they should/shouldn't be in the game. Although even that is hazy because from the policy discussion, oranges mentioned an admin can nuke any book they don't think should be in the game, regardless of if it's allowed according to the rules.

Then again what even is a book that's "allowed"? We established non-con is banworthy. But it seems there is a who slew of adult books that fit under the "allowed-under-rules" category, which may not be allowed according to whatever admin happens to be curating.

It's really funny to me that writing the smut book is not erp but reading it aloud is, like the book is creepy enough to ban people for it but only in certain ways of reading it. Am I becoming a wgw rights supporter? Or maybe I just don't like unintuitive rules

[Bytube]

I still stand by my stance that having nsfw books causes too much drama and it would just be better to get rid of them than to argue about this for ages

[wesoda25]

Same has been said about catgirls yet here we are )

[Omega_DarkPotato]

words

It's really funny to me that writing the smut book is not erp but reading it aloud is, like the book is creepy enough to ban people for it but only in certain ways of reading it. Am I becoming a wgw rights supporter? Or maybe I just don't like unintuitive rules

It's a lot easier to not read the resulting book than it is to not listen to someone reading smut over comms. The primary thing that everyone keeps bringing up is "are you being forced to interact with this shit" and if you are and you didn't want to then it's a problem.

[imsxz]

How much energy are you willing to devote to cleaning up the place that nobody looks in? People don't use the library for reasons other than the smut, so it's not like you'll bring an audience to the library or anything. If something in the library disturbed/offended someone enough to make them want to ahelp it, it's fine to delete. If a player is harassing someone via publishing books (i.e. writing smut about someone elses character without permission) then you can ban/warn them for the relevant rule, the main issue being harassment rather than the book being naughty. It's not worth anybody's time or energy to scour through the library books and banning people that made smut books.

TBH you could probably just let the curator delete books himself, though probably have a large delay between deleting books so that they don't just delete everything.

[Tlaltecuhtli]

in which universe when you hate a person you write EROTIC FAN FIC and upload it on some database only 10 ppl look at? i think the library as its true intended use, repository for different versions and re-shaping of wgw and bee movie script, has done nothing wrong worth being censured. the true problem is letting sickos and schizos run rampant, we dont have to bend over the rules to accept shit like "what if some teenager on meds decides to click on byond. com instead of hot-anime-sex.org? we have to establish حدود and ban any depraved source of confidence to prevent skyrat and bay players from come here and feel welcome to do erp, like felinid, moths, anime hair etc. building palisades without eliminating the source will only lead to war of attrition against weebs and furries. today they corrupt the library, tomorrow the codebase and then tg will be remembered as another 18+ anthrofriendly place for rough souls known as "skyrat 2"

[Bytube]

in which universe when you hate a person you write EROTIC FAN FIC and upload it on some database only 10 ppl look at?

This one sadly

[Pandarsenic]

Request: can we clean up every stupid large-image spam post in the forums before we try to tackle any lewd shit in the library?

[Jonathan Gupta]

Request: can we clean up every stupid large-image spam post in the forums before we try to tackle any lewd shit in the library?

we can't clean the corner, I can't allow you to clean it.

[cacogen]

Even though we seem to have covered the same stuff multiple times and come to a general common sense consensus on how the various issues here should be handled this thread seems like it's never going to be resolved

[Omega_DarkPotato]

Even though we seem to have covered the same stuff multiple times and come to a general common sense consensus on how the various issues here should be handled this thread seems like it's never going to be resolved

The discussion's already been had in policy-bus on the discord as well, it's really up for headmins to convene on it at this point. Both MSO and Coco have chimed in on their takes on it, but there needs to be at least one more headmin chiming in before this is finished.

[Armhulen]

Even though we seem to have covered the same stuff multiple times and come to a general common sense consensus on how the various issues here should be handled this thread seems like it's never going to be resolved

we had a policybus discussion on it, headdies will rule eventually

[Jonathan Gupta]

though it's been a longggggg wait my rep fanfiction is almost done just gotta 10x check it.

[cacogen]

Even though we seem to have covered the same stuff multiple times and come to a general common sense consensus on how the various issues here should be handled this thread seems like it's never going to be resolved

we had a policybus discussion on it, headdies will rule eventually

What was the point of this thread then

[Mothblocks]

to prompt the discussion and make sure everyone is starting from the same page

[Shadowflame909]

if there are some under 18's they are more mature then me.

not true bro. I turned 18 in January of this year. Everyone basically knew I was underage before then

The true trick of the trade is to never just blatantly say it in ooc so admins don't have to ban you by law

[sinfulbliss]

Server shouldn't cater to under-18s, they shouldn't be there to begin with.
"Dirty books OK if it's not too degenerate" is bad policy because it's super vague and will differ admin-to-admin.
Allowing books to be removed but not making policy against them is also weird since the writer can just reupload them over and over, and not technically be breaking any rules.

I like Coco's take on it and I think the ruling will probably be good, but the more explicit it is in what is disallowed/allowed the better IMO.

[cacogen]

to prompt the discussion and make sure everyone is starting from the same page

It's like picking and choosing the argument that suits what you want the most

[Coconutwarrior97]

To address the overall idea of Rule 8, we believe that the adult section in the library to be a unique exception to the rule with the understanding that the reason for the exception is due to the shitposting/funny nature of the smut.

Now on to the rule changes,
Non-consensual adult books are deleteable and the author can be banned for it per rule 8.

Any form of smut should be under the Adult section of the library, if its anywhere else it is deleteable, though a single incident of this is not a reason to ban anyone unless the book is violating some other rule.

Attempting to circumvent Rule 8 in anyway via books is bannable and should be handled on a case by case basis. We don't see this as something which is particularly common.
Though we do expect administrators to use common sense keeping in mind that, "...the reason for the exception is due to the shitposting/funny nature of the smut."
When there's two players sitting side by side writing detailed smut about each other for 30 minutes to step in and say, "Alright lads, now you're just ERPing by proxy." and ban them per rule 8.

Additionally we saw a few other points brought up during the discussion which are really already covered under the rules but we feel its important to state again:
Any form of harassment against a particular player due to a book is banable, any smut book featuring underage characters is deleteable and the author banable per rule 8.

Headmin Votes:
Coconutwarrior97: Yes, I think the adult section of the library is pretty funny and a cool lil outlet for dumb shenanigans. I can see the need for some more moderation of it, but I think outright deletion of it is going too far.
Jimmius: Yes.
Naloac: Yes.