Enable Respawns

[Sylphet]

Exactly what it says on the tin. Dying and waiting for the next round *sucks*, especially when rounds can go on for an hour, or more in case of MRP. It just leads to people just disconnecting - but respawns are already in config. Making this change would allow people who might not really have multiple hours a day to throw into SS13 to get back into the round. The only concern which comes to mind is people metagaming, taking a respawn to kill the person who killed them - but this is already possible through golems and any number of ghost roles, and extremely against the rules. It's also very easily caught from an administrative perspective when it does happen.

an unnamed headmin is making me post this send help

[EOBGames]

The fact that ghost roles are already a problem doesn't seem, to my mind, to be a good reason to throw open the proverbial floodgates. There's also a lot of additional angles of abuse opened by direct respawn onto the station (is someone respawning into a station-wide crisis considered to be metagaming if they go back to combatting the crisis that just killed them? If that's not metagaming, doesn't that massively tip the favours against any antags who are causing those sorts of crises like nuke ops, blobs and wizards? If it is metagaming, what are they meant to do post-respawn?) which I think would need to be considered closely if you wanted to implement it rather than just "ghost roles have problems so respawns should exist".

As far as the argument of respawning to make rounds less shitty as people die, I can agree that it sucks having SS13 time for the day get cut short by dying, but I don't think the solution is to make respawns a thing.

[Farquaar]

Dying and waiting for the next round *sucks*, especially when rounds can go on for an hour, or more in case of MRP. It just leads to people just disconnecting - but respawns are already in config. Making this change would allow people who might not really have multiple hours a day to throw into SS13 to get back into the round.

You've died. Your part in the story is done. Sit back and watch the rest of the story play out or go do something else.

SS13 isn't a hacky modern MMO where there's some financial incentive to maximize player connection time. It's okay if someone disconnects. The game will be there for them again when they come back. And the best part is: if they really, really want to keep playing SS13 with no breaks, we've got four (technically five) servers with active players on them! Heck, if you're lucky you might get a cool ghost role that lets you keep contributing to round on the exact same server in a restricted, but meaningful way. The system works great!

The only concern which comes to mind is people metagaming

That's the only concern you can think of? People barely roleplay characters that value their lives as it is. Free respawns only makes your life as a spaceman cheaper and less engaging. A sacrifice loses its meaning. A murder loses its sting. You failed to protect your buddy? NBD, he'll be back and fighting the big bad in a few short minutes

To me, it seems self-evident why free respawns haven't been implemented already. For these same unspoken reasons, ghost roles outside of the station are discouraged from coming aboard and ghost roles inside the station are usually subject to restrictions (i.e. be a slave to an antag). SS13 just isn't the kind of game where death is taken lightly. Once you've died, your role in the round is permanently changed.

[zxaber]

You failed to protect your buddy? NBD, he'll be back and fighting the big bad in a few short minutes

To say nothing of what this would do to medical. "Dead body? Bin it, they'll be on the respawn sub shuttle shortly."

Anyway, if you really want to rejoin the round, there's a device in robotics that tells the robos a ghost wants a posi. It's true that robos don't always listen, but they might if you try.

[wesoda25]

I think the playing experience is enriched by death being meaningful. Besides, you can just join another server. If you aren't willing or care to engage with the rest of the community that sounds like a you problem.

[Shadowflame909]

hopefully that rule 3 change will enable admins to open up the revolving door and spawn in some ghost roles when an antag makes a lot of people dead.

[Cobby]

I do not trust people to choose different characters so the current system is an absolute no, and even if the system was better I think it fundamentally changes how the game should be played when death becomes less meaningful (not even considering misuse of an instant respawn)

[NecromancerAnne]

The loss of station life and the sudden isolation from others is interesting to me. The paranoia of everyone when things go badly is good roleplay. When the bodies start piling up, resources start running out and people randomly attack one another in a vain hope to not be attacked first is a very different kind of gameplay that I think highlights a unique aspect of the social paranoia gameplay. When social conventions break down, things get kind of vicious.

[Farquaar]

The loss of station life and the sudden isolation from others is interesting to me. The paranoia of everyone when things go badly is good roleplay. When the bodies start piling up, resources start running out and people randomly attack one another in a vain hope to not be attacked first is a very different kind of gameplay that I think highlights a unique aspect of the social paranoia gameplay. When social conventions break down, things get kind of vicious.

This is also something really important that I thought about articulating earlier.

SS13 rounds are characterized by progression, and death/round removal is an important part of that progression. The vibe of the station changes when people start dying. There's fewer people chattering on the radio. Fewer faces in the halls. Fewer people to repair damage. Fewer people to watch your back. It pushes the round towards completion when all surviving crewmembers realize "hey, the station is screwed- let's bail"

[Sylphet]

Something that I should have mentioned earlier is that literally all servers with respawns enabled use a timer rather than instant respawn - I didn't think to even say it because I thought it was just that obvious, instant respawns are a terrible idea. Death would *still* be impactful, you're still spending time dead. You're just spending half an hour or something watching instead of however long until the next shift is. You can't immediately respawn and kill the guy who killed you, and the station ending threat like a blob is more than likely dealt with by the time that your timer ends, so it doesn't fuck with antag balance. This would also reduce the impact that hellshifts have on the pop of later rounds - people have an easier time waiting when they know how long it'll be. The other argument that you just go play another server - there's one MRP server, if you die in the 4 hour round, you can't do that - even if you like LRP, it's not the experience that you wanted. There's one EU server, some people find NA servers literally unplayable due to lag. Those people don't get much of a choice either.

[TheFinalPotato]

Unless this is targeted at lowpop I really don't think you want to build config around 4 hour rounds, the game starts to break down at that point.

[Sylphet]

Unless this is targeted at lowpop I really don't think you want to build config around 4 hour rounds, the game starts to break down at that point.

It's just an example of an excessively long MRP round that this would help to fix. MRP tends to go for a lot longer and already has an issue with people not getting killed or round removed, it's a serious dick move OOCly to deny someone their gameplay for as long as MRP can be, and my hope is that this reduces Manuel's aversion to violence and the toxicity towards people who antag by allowing people to eventually come back in.

[wesoda25]

The rift between LRP and MRP has been a big talking point lately and catering to people who play on one server so that they can continue to play on one server sounds like an excellent way of making the problem worse. Players should be encouraged to interact with the rest of the community, not enabled to forever avoid it.

Also, there’s two EU servers.

[Itseasytosee2me]

Death is important. It represents your failure, punishment, or perhaps the consequences of your noble sacrifice. Occasionally it can be caused by actions outside of your control, but that's OK it's part of the game its not supposed to be fair in that way. Let your spirit rest for the hour or two it needs before you start telling a new story, or just be done for the day.

[Bawhoppennn]

I'm relatively concerned about the attitude towards dying and round removal recently. There's a reason Rule 10 is worded to say "losing is part of the fun"... it's true. This has always been the prevailing philosophy for ss13. Even HRP servers that have respawn enabled do so just to make sure there's enough new faces in the round (they're often not highpop servers), not because they're worried about people being dead.

The fun of the game has always been that your thread of fate is never certain to continue. That's the whole point. I think we've reached a very poor cultural attitude if we see death and round-removal as a great issue that needs to be solved. This isn't the game where the point is to constantly see action, the fun is in the story.

[Lazengann]

Respawns were the worst part of gmod darkrp

[TheFinalPotato]

It's just an example of an excessively long MRP round that this would help to fix. MRP tends to go for a lot longer and already has an issue with people not getting killed or round removed, it's a serious dick move OOCly to deny someone their gameplay for as long as MRP can be, and my hope is that this reduces Manuel's aversion to violence and the toxicity towards people who antag by allowing people to eventually come back in.

I know manuel can go a lot longer then the other servers. I worry that building policy and config around that assumption will lead to more harm then good. I don't like the hyper long rounds.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Death being meaningful and people being afraid of it is a core feature, I wouldnt wanna erode it.

[Armhulen]

Unless this is targeted at lowpop I really don't think you want to build config around 4 hour rounds, the game starts to break down at that point.

It's just an example of an excessively long MRP round that this would help to fix. MRP tends to go for a lot longer and already has an issue with people not getting killed or round removed, it's a serious dick move OOCly to deny someone their gameplay for as long as MRP can be, and my hope is that this reduces Manuel's aversion to violence and the toxicity towards people who antag by allowing people to eventually come back in.

Honestly (and I know policy can't solve this, or maybe it can with dynamic config but whatever) the only thing that's going to solve this is harsher escalation of antags past hour, hour thirty, etc.

[cacogen]

Yeah, on Manuel you should be able to respawn as a different crewmember after half an hour.

That isn’t unreasonable and it’s not going to erode people’s fear of death because A) You have to sit out for half an hour and B) You’re no longer playing your static so your meta friends have to pretend they don’t know it’s you.

On Terry, it should be after twenty minutes. So a 1/2 to 1/3 of the average round length.

If the medbay shitters can’t revive you in that time then it’s over to God to do.

DNR should probably be necessary for the revive countdown to begin though, so the soul is not plucked from the body mid-revival. It’s up to dead players if they take a chance on being revived in twenty minutes or begin the respawn process and lose everything.

Beelining for your old body should be expressly prohibited.

We would craft a system where the body is ascended into heaven by the one true God and all the belongings are returned to their initial location (not counting items that spawned with the dead person (their worldly possessions), these would just be deleted. If their stuff couldn’t be returned to its starting position, (because it would be pulled into space or the container it started in was deleted or moved out of its starting area or something), it would just go in a lost and found in head of staff offices. They would either share the same inventory, like Paradox bags, or the office it ended up in would be determined by the job of the dead person. You could only remove things from these containers, you would need specific access to get into them and they couldn’t be left open. This would mean these items weren’t lying around for the taking like those shitassed sleepers we used to have but weren’t banished to a locker in the depths of security only to be looked in twice a round by the warden or HoS looking for loot.

Or you could just enforce it administratively which is both boring and fallible.

I’ve said my piece.

[Farquaar]

That isn’t unreasonable and it’s not going to erode people’s fear of death because A) You have to sit out for half an hour and B) You’re no longer playing your static so your meta friends have to pretend they don’t know it’s you.

A) Dying isn't just about the time you have to sit out. Even if you somehow get killed in the first five minutes, you can always server hop. Dying is consequential because it dramatically alters your ability to continue participating in the story of the current round.
B) If you really don't think that meta-Manuelites don't have backup statics, I don't what to tell you.

[Djaubb]

I agree with a lot of persons here: the fun is to know that if you die it can end your round;
I had multiple rounds quite fun because engis/secs/others prefered to flee than to help because they feared for their life. I had a lot of fun to insult their cowardice after that.

Respawn wouldn't go toward the feeling a ss13 round gives. Maybe for marathon/MRP servers it could make sense in some form. The problem with respawn is that you have to have a delay long enough to give a sense of lose to the player: 30mn on terry would mean half/a third of a round it could be ok, but then we have the next problem: metagaming.
The longer the delay, the more infos you get (even more if someone subdue AI/Borgs as ghosts get a message).

An alternative would be; use ghost roles.
What I had fun with was the Regal Rat. Very little influence, very weak, but you can interact and roleplay.

So for short; respawn would lower the fun/stress/adrenalin you experience.
Maybe more effort into ghosts roles instead?
Or maybe respawn but with forced uncommon language/prosopagnosia (edit: aw shit this is just ethereal then) to reduce the chances to metagame. But even then....

[toemas]

i died

[cacogen]

Dying isn't just about the time you have to sit out. ... Dying is consequential because it dramatically alters your ability to continue participating in the story of the current round.

You're glib, Farquaar. You're glib.

[BeeSting12]

we literally have like six servers and ghost roles lol

[Armhulen]

we literally have like six servers and ghost roles lol

And back in the day people still didn't want respawn when there were almost no ghost roles and two servers

[Tearling]

we literally have like six servers and ghost roles lol

And back in the day people still didn't want respawn when there were almost no ghost roles and two servers

The difference is now I'm here, so obviously people would want to respawn to continue playing with me

[cacogen]

we literally have like six servers and ghost roles lol

And back in the day people still didn't want respawn when there were almost no ghost roles and two servers

Yes, and we had cloning and sleepers back then...

[Pandarsenic]

Dying isn't just about the time you have to sit out. ... Dying is consequential because it dramatically alters your ability to continue participating in the story of the current round.

You're glib, Farquaar. You're glib.

I diagnose Farquaar with wisdom

[cacogen]

Nobody cares about "the story of the current round", regardless of what they might insist here.

The MRP server is a metafriend hangout 'roleplaying' chatroom where the metafriends ensure they and their friends stay in the round as much as possible, often at the expense of antagonists who they shame for daring to disrupt their rounds by trying to complete their objectives. And it's kind of hard to blame them when death there can mean sitting out for two hours.

LRP is just a shitfest of people powergaming and trying to robust each other. Which is fine. Chaotic, action-packed rounds are when the game is its most fun. The reason it causes problems is because of the length of time people have to sit out. The reason we can't have rounds with a proper tension curve is because people don't want to sit out for that long.

And sitting out after death only exists to give surviving meaning. You don't need it to go on for any longer than 20 minutes to do that, particularly if you're not coming back as the same character and you lose everything you had.

[wesoda25]

[TheFinalPotato]

Nobody cares about "the story of the current round", regardless of what they might insist here.

The MRP server is a metafriend hangout 'roleplaying' chatroom where the metafriends ensure they and their friends stay in the round as much as possible, often at the expense of antagonists who they shame for daring to disrupt their rounds by trying to complete their objectives. And it's kind of hard to blame them when death there can mean sitting out for two hours.

LRP is just a shitfest of people powergaming and trying to robust each other. Which is fine. Chaotic, action-packed rounds are when the game is its most fun. The reason it causes problems is because of the length of time people have to sit out. The reason we can't have rounds with a proper tension curve is because people don't want to sit out for that long.

And sitting out after death only exists to give surviving meaning. You don't need it to go on for any longer than 20 minutes to do that, particularly if you're not coming back as the same character and you lose everything you had.

User error

[Not-Dorsidarf]

The MRP server is a metafriend hangout 'roleplaying' chatroom where the metafriends ensure they and their friends stay in the round as much as possible, often at the expense of antagonists who they shame for daring to disrupt their rounds by trying to complete their objectives. And it's kind of hard to blame them when death there can mean sitting out for two hours.

LRP is just a shitfest of people powergaming and trying to robust each other. Which is fine. Chaotic, action-packed rounds are when the game is its most fun. The reason it causes problems is because of the length of time people have to sit out. The reason we can't have rounds with a proper tension curve is because people don't want to sit out for that long.

Generally I find that the MRP server is just sybil and basil except with less mass-murder.

And chaotic action packed rounds are indeed when the game is at its most fun... But if you crank it up too high its meaningless undifferentiated noise of violence. If people don't want to sit out being dead until the next round they can play on a different one of our servers. Sure it wont be the precise one they wanted but then you should have tried harder not to die in a game about surviving.

[Cobby]

I think the real problem is if you die on Manuel you have no other option of playing the game that isn’t

1) a place where people have to abide by the additional rulesets you’re accustomed to others abiding by (particularly just killing you because they can)

2) a place where you are playing a turn based game because the server is across the USA (non east coasters ew)+Atlantic or the pacific+asia depending on where you live

The solution is to make sister servers like we have with bagil/Sybil.

[cacogen]

It would be interesting to know how many people server hop after they die because I’m guessing it’s not many.

But if you crank it up too high its meaningless undifferentiated noise of violence.

I don’t see how letting people respawn after 20 minutes would create that kind of environment. It’s still a very long time to sit out.

User error

This seems like the classic coder expectations vs. reality dilemma.

[Jonathan Gupta]

But if you crank it up too high its meaningless undifferentiated noise of violence.

I don’t see how letting people respawn after 20 minutes would create that kind of environment. It’s still a very long time to sit out.

you would be suprised how long 20 minutes is not

NSFW:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAPCPjnU1wA(Workout video does not require equipment)

[dragomagol]

For the reasons brought up in this thread (game isn't balanced for respawns, death should be meaningful, we have ghost roles and other servers), we are not interested in enabling respawns at this time.

Headmin Votes:
Dragomagol: Agree
RaveRadbury: Agree
NamelessFairy: Disagree - I agree with a lot of the ideas Sylphet has put forward in this thread and I can see the benefits and I trust that our admin team will be able to prevent abuse of the system. I do however think the respawn system needs more controls such as a delay and preventing respawns rolling antag for example before it could gain wider acceptance.