Ghosts having the freedom to do whatever as antags under rule 4

[Domitius]

Currently we have no precedent and no true conversations(That I've found) surrounding ghosts doing antagonistic actions. I would like ghosts to be labeled as an "antag" so that any hijinx they get up to is protected under rule 4.

I would like to make a note that no admins to my knowledge have ever taken actions against ghosts that cause trouble but I would like to make it crystal clear going forward that they are free to do so.

Examples of actions that ghosts can do that would be protected off the top of my head are as follows:
-Ghost controlled harmful objects
-Ouija boards
-"Ghost courts" during wiz events
-Ghosts with C4 attached to them during said events going where ever they like

This is a very minor change with the intent to provide clarity on how admins and the community treats ghosts in respect to rule 4.

Implementation
I believe simply adding this to the headmin rulings page is the right course as this subject is intuitive enough that it doesn't warrant any addendums on the main rules page.

► Show Spoiler

EDIT: A consequence of this is that suiciding would be explicit self-antagging so admins can meet their ban quotas easier

[TheFinalPotato]

I like the idea of setting the precedent that players are not inherently station aligned. Also ghost memes are funny should do this.

[Kel]

does this mean that ghosts can no longer talk about OOC subjects in deadchat since they are officially a role in the game

[wesoda25]

Sounds good to me

[NoxVS]

Would this have any impact on things like possession? I remember ages ago seeing some guy get banned/noted for taking a summon events possession mob (specifically, a monkey) and killing with it

[Domitius]

does this mean that ghosts can no longer talk about OOC subjects in deadchat since they are officially a role in the game

I simply desire for ghosts to be protected under rule 4 to be malicious/non station aligned without any fear of retaliation. No changes will happen outside of that. To answer your question ghosts can continue to talk about OOC subjects in deadchat.

Would this have any impact on things like possession? I remember ages ago seeing some guy get banned/noted for taking a summon events possession mob (specifically, a monkey) and killing with it

This would have no impact on possession.

The second a ghost accepts any sort of event role, such as possession, they are no longer ghosts and are subjected to the regular rules.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

Just curious, but is there a single ticket where someone has gotten bwoinked over doing anything as a ghost?

[Shadowflame909]

Just curious, but is there a single ticket where someone has gotten bwoinked over doing anything as a ghost?

No but someones definitely gotten banned for trusting ghost court and murdering someone because they were all orbiting a random person lol

[Domitius]

Just curious, but is there a single ticket where someone has gotten bwoinked over doing anything as a ghost?

No but someones definitely gotten banned for trusting ghost court and murdering someone because they were all orbiting a random person lol

Mostly this as well as other niche ghost interactions.

I totally understand that this is pretty much a non-issue and purely just paperwork. However I would still appreciate it being listed under headmin rulings that "Ghosts are protected under rule 4 to do whatever". We've been letting ghosts do whatever since forever so to be honest nothing really needs to change but it would be a nice safety net before potentially extremely messy problems arise.

There has not been a single ticket to my knowledge about doing anything as antagonistic/malicious as a ghost.

[Kel]

does this mean that ghosts can no longer talk about OOC subjects in deadchat since they are officially a role in the game

I simply desire for ghosts to be protected under rule 4 to be malicious/non station aligned without any fear of retaliation. No changes will happen outside of that. To answer your question ghosts can continue to talk about OOC subjects in deadchat.

well then whatever rule/policy/unspoken understanding that allows ghosts to be an OOC entity should follow the same logic of people speaking in OOC chat should not be listened to. like how you don't listen to people say "OOC: ;HALP AI ABSORBING ME MAINT"

[wesoda25]

Fine kel we can just say something along the lines of: “ghosts are free to cause whatever mischief they can” or something r u happy

[Domitius]

does this mean that ghosts can no longer talk about OOC subjects in deadchat since they are officially a role in the game

I simply desire for ghosts to be protected under rule 4 to be malicious/non station aligned without any fear of retaliation. No changes will happen outside of that. To answer your question ghosts can continue to talk about OOC subjects in deadchat.

well then whatever rule/policy/unspoken understanding that allows ghosts to be an OOC entity should follow the same logic of people speaking in OOC chat should not be listened to. like how you don't listen to people say "OOC: ;HALP AI ABSORBING ME MAINT"

What? Deadchat isn't being discussed here and will not be impacted in the slightest.

[Timberpoes]

What? Deadchat isn't being discussed here and will not be impacted in the slightest.

Cult. Scrying orb.

[iamgoofball]

we should probably just remove ghost interactions instead

[Timberpoes]

As a side note, I don't actually think it's worth protecting this unless there are currently or have been incidents where ghosts have gotten bwoinked for using their ghostly powers. Because I think it can be helpful to NOT establish ghosts as antags-by-default. A poorly worded ruling may also confuse people into thinking all ghost roles are antags, or alternatively that dying and being revived makes you an antag (because you came from a ghost), etc.

We also have a config setting we can flick that lets ghosts interact with things. I think it lets them rotate chairs and flicker lightbulbs and stuff?

I think it was disabled in the past because ghosts interacting in the shift basically just ended up with people using them to validhunt? Our old historians would know better.

[iamgoofball]

ya every time we added a ghost interaction players started using it to ouija board "who da antag today" and they got good answers more often than bad ones

plus we added the ultimate ouija board "who da antag today" with visible ghosts during wizard completely fucking over any attempts to be stealthy or any other antags so

[Kel]

Fine kel we can just say something along the lines of: “ghosts are free to cause whatever mischief they can” or something r u happy

i am of the opinion that frivolous rules are more damaging than good, so i'd rather just leave it to common sense.

What? Deadchat isn't being discussed here and will not be impacted in the slightest.

besides the already mentioned ways to access deadchat as a living entity (revenants too btw), i meant more so that ghosts themselves are already understood to be an extension of an OOC system. pointing and whatnot shows as purple deadchat text as much as just talking does. you could theoretically act upon someones icky ocky at your own peril, same with anything related to ghosts. of course it's not really a perfect comparison, but i refer to falling back to common sense when dealing with these situations.

I think it was disabled in the past because ghosts interacting in the shift basically just ended up with people using them to validhunt? Our old historians would know better.

it was mostly the chairs. a bunch of chairs spinning/shifting to point directly at someone = murderboner. a solitary chair next to you spinning and then directing towards a specific direction = someone trying to point you towards their dead body (usually). light flickers were a great way for someone to say "fuck off ghost" because all it did was annoy people.

[Mothblocks]

the chair thing doesn't even work anymore other than the verb

[zxaber]

Certain events may allow you to influence the round even when dead. While dead, you are exempt from rule 1. This exemption ends if you take a ghost role, are revived, or otherwise enter the round as a non-observer.

[Itseasytosee2me]

Certain events may allow you to influence the round even when dead. While dead, you are exempt from rule 1. This exemption ends if you take a ghost role, are revived, or otherwise enter the round as a non-observer.

Rule 1 is an OCC focused rule. This chance would imply ghosts are allowed to be massive dickheads to each other in deadchat.

[Mothblocks]

whatever the outcome of this is doesnt actually need to go in the rules, and can just stick in headmin rulings

[Misdoubtful]

... ghost memes are funny...

All the justification we need for this.

[Pandarsenic]

Ghosts giving bad advice on purpose is the real good shit. Nothing is as funny as watching a bunch of ghosts pointing furiously trying to get someone to disposal a pAI.

[Mothblocks]

Ghosts can do whatever but if you kill someone just because you see a ghost orbiting them then 21 kid brother voice you stupid

Players are responsible for their actions