Reduce the amount of cyborg hours required to play AI

[BurgerBB]

Currently, the amount of cyborg hours required to play AI is 15 hours. I think this is a bit too much considering what the role of cyborg is and how little it actually differs from AI in terms of consequences.

Both AI and Cyborgs require an understanding of silicon policy to play. Both roles can seriously mess up a round or at minimum another player's round if silicon policy isn't follow properly. Both roles can plasma flood, murderbone, shock doors, refuse to follow valid orders, grief, maim, kill, spam, etc.

The only difference between AI and Borg, in my opinion, are these five points:
- There is (usually) only 1 AI slot.
- It is easier for the AI to validhunt and/or shut down antags.
- The AI can order borgs around, who are linked, so It is possible for the AI to give a bad order that gets followed.
- The AI can intentionally fuck shit up easier. (Simplistically, AI are basically invisible players can move through walls with the ability to teleport to any player that is near a camera.)
- The AI can intentionally fuck shit up safer (AI are in their sat, protected by turrets.)

I'm not asking for the timegate to be removed completely, I'm just asking the policy team to reconsider if that length of time is too long.

[EmpressMaia]

I think we'd be okay lowering AI to 10 hours and having a small popup when it's your first time as ai saying " please understand the importance of your role. You drive the round forward and have alot of power in the story of the shift" or something like that

[MrStonedOne]

Cyborgs are generally slaved to the ai's interpretations of the laws, playing as cyborg gives you experience in this field of interpreting laws.

15 hours is 12 to 20 rounds, which is how many a cyborg main who also gets borgged round start when they don't roll cyborg would have to play if they only played on the weekend, before they would unlock the 30 day account age requirement for round start AI. (remember, time locked jobs have two requirements, time played as some other subset of jobs in hours, and account age in days.)

The other factor is how easy it is for the crew to deal with a rule breaking cyborg when admins aren't on, vs a rule breaking ai.

You can attack the borg while they are doing shit, and most mass griefing strats require it be in public hallways for some part of it, if it has a good faith ai, the ai can track it anywhere it goes and talk on command and security radio. None of those apply to ais in the ai sat era of station maps (bring back core in upload which is itself accessible from a public hallway).

10 hours wouldn't be unreasonable thou, especially given the account age requirement. Headmins know about this thread so we'll see what they think.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

A shit AI is an absolute pain for the round. A shit borg with an OK / no AI is a minor pest

[carshalash]

I have by far the most AI hours out of anyone, reducing the hours required to be an AI is a horrible idea. Being a cyborg is very different from being an AI. For the normal person, the cyborg hours are used to better understand how both silicon policy and laws work. Unfortunately, many of our players are idiots, so they will barely be able to grasp asimov in these hours.

I'd argue that increasing hours would be nice due to certain troglodytes ruining it for everyone, buuut that'd be too mean for people that actually want to use the role properly.

You can attack the borg while they are doing shit, and most mass griefing strats require it be in public hallways for some part of it, if it has a good faith ai, the ai can track it anywhere it goes and talk on command and security radio.

I think we need to take a look back at the removal of the detonate borg button for AI's, having to request admins intervene whenever some shit head gets bored is a pain in the ass.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

If anything, I wish that in addition to increased hours, we made having 20 hours as a station engineer, or an engiborg chassis specifically, a requirement. There are way too many AI players who do not know how to set up a roundstart sm without outside assistance (If you have to ask for someone to come into engi to wrench an n2 canister for you, this means you!). Right now too many people want to be AI, but then become glorified door openers because they don't have sufficient mechanical knowledge, and then they get bored of AI and stop playing it because they don't know how to actually manipulate things on the station.

[Redrover1760]

If anything, I wish that in addition to increased hours, we made having 20 hours as a station engineer, or an engiborg chassis specifically, a requirement. There are way too many AI players who do not know how to set up a roundstart sm without outside assistance (If you have to ask for someone to come into engi to wrench an n2 canister for you, this means you!). Right now too many people want to be AI, but then become glorified door openers because they don't have sufficient mechanical knowledge, and then they get bored of AI and stop playing it because they don't know how to actually manipulate things on the station.

I mean, its not the AI's job to setup SM. Although, AI kinda needs to know how to plasmaflood/sabo SM/etc a little cause antags and laws and stuff.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

If anything, I wish that in addition to increased hours, we made having 20 hours as a station engineer, or an engiborg chassis specifically, a requirement. There are way too many AI players who do not know how to set up a roundstart sm without outside assistance (If you have to ask for someone to come into engi to wrench an n2 canister for you, this means you!). Right now too many people want to be AI, but then become glorified door openers because they don't have sufficient mechanical knowledge, and then they get bored of AI and stop playing it because they don't know how to actually manipulate things on the station.

I mean, its not the AI's job to setup SM. Although, AI kinda needs to know how to plasmaflood/sabo SM/etc a little cause antags and laws and stuff.

The main point was the severe lack of mechanical knowledge among new AIs is a huge issue for AI player retention, not the SM specifically. How many times have you heard people complain that AI is a door opener role, and therefore boring?

[zxaber]

(...) which is how many a cyborg main who also gets borgged round start when they don't roll cyborg would have to play (...)

Does time spent after being borged even count towards borg playtime? I recall it being generally accepted as fact that play time as an assistant-turned-borg will just count the whole round as assistant.

[Timberpoes]

I refactored it back in https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/58186/files

The playtime tracking system requests that info at the `/mob/living` level. Player controlling silicon and AI mobs will have their playtime accordingly adjusted for those roles as a result. So you can build up sillycone hours by being borged.

If this doesn't happen on live, issue report it.

[VexingRaven]

If anything, I wish that in addition to increased hours, we made having 20 hours as a station engineer, or an engiborg chassis specifically, a requirement. There are way too many AI players who do not know how to set up a roundstart sm without outside assistance (If you have to ask for someone to come into engi to wrench an n2 canister for you, this means you!). Right now too many people want to be AI, but then become glorified door openers because they don't have sufficient mechanical knowledge, and then they get bored of AI and stop playing it because they don't know how to actually manipulate things on the station.

I mean, its not the AI's job to setup SM. Although, AI kinda needs to know how to plasmaflood/sabo SM/etc a little cause antags and laws and stuff.

While I agree it is not the AI's job to do so, the SM is one of those things that the AI is in a very good position to keep watch on and intervene quickly if things go wrong. I don't know if we should require AIs to know that, but it is definitely something the AI should know, along with basic atmos manipulation. I've played many a mid/low-pop AI round where I was the entire engineering department all by myself.

[MrStonedOne]

Law 1 says it is the ais job to setup the sm if no meatbags are able to.

Given its the only power source the ai CAN setup on most maps, and a lack of power leads to a lack of heat and a lack of air/co2 filtration.

[san7890]

Law 1 says it is the ais job to setup the sm if no meatbags are able to.

Given its the only power source the ai CAN setup on most maps, and a lack of power leads to a lack of heat and a lack of air/co2 filtration.

After recent power balance changes, the supermatter is probably the only long-term power source that can feed the entire station. It's a good thing they removed plasma radiation collectors (which required human input), and you can use atmospherics built in Mix to Supermatter Input line to feed in the required coolant (Nitrogen) if you don't have a borg to wrench in cans. I think there's also a Law Three element to it as well, because who's going to hear your depowered screams when your battery runs dry and you eventually lose processing power as any reserves go through the floor?

It requires the AI to have knowledge of the supermatter (or at least, atmospherics)- but I learned from the same guide that's on the wiki to this day (which has seen improvements over time). Regardless, if it's your first time setting up the supermatter, may as well shake all the mistakes you could possibly make out on the first few tries.

[VexingRaven]

Law 1 says it is the ais job to setup the sm if no meatbags are able to.

Given its the only power source the ai CAN setup on most maps, and a lack of power leads to a lack of heat and a lack of air/co2 filtration.

If this is how we interpret that then maybe engineering hours for AI does make sense.

[EmpressMaia]

Law 1 says it is the ais job to setup the sm if no meatbags are able to.

Given its the only power source the ai CAN setup on most maps, and a lack of power leads to a lack of heat and a lack of air/co2 filtration.

I think? The ai can setup the incinerator if need be. Which can MAYBE keep the station powered for like 30 minutes

[Pandarsenic]

Ehhhhhh, at-risk humans can call a shuttle out long before air quality becomes a harmful problem, and the station doesn't actually radiate heat into space, if there's no other compounding issue (breaches, etc.).

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

Law 1 says it is the ais job to setup the sm if no meatbags are able to.

Given its the only power source the ai CAN setup on most maps, and a lack of power leads to a lack of heat and a lack of air/co2 filtration.

I think? The ai can setup the incinerator if need be. Which can MAYBE keep the station powered for like 30 minutes

I know that on metastation at least, there are no cameras at turbine. I don't recall for the other maps though.

That being said, finding someone who can do turbine is even more rare than the sm!

[san7890]

An AI is quite an important job on the station, and while new code-side changes to the job config could potentially allow for a less-strict playtime- we do not deem it necessary to lower the restriction at this time.

The account age restriction will at least allow the player enough time (if playing a session at least once a week) to get acclimated to what a silicon might be expected to do, and then the actual job-hours threshold will allow them to understand how to fulfill these expectations.