Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

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Chadley
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Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Chadley » #674675

Bottom post of the previous page:

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned in the past. Still, especially with the disgruntled peanuts about security as of late, this trend of silent arrests, and more so silent executions makes people livid. It's a dick move to stun someone silently, it only gets worse when it's sec and you can't retaliate and don't even know why.

I understand the nuance, if someone has contraband or is actively killing someone, sec doesn't want to type out what they're doing and risk getting the business end of the esword, but after someone is cuffed, they at least deserve an explanation.

There's a case that can be argued about how under Security Rule 6, sec that are arresting people silently is kill baiting as they're much more likely to resist, act like an antagonist, or receive help from the people around them than if they were to be arrested and then receive reasoning from the officer.
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I believe a precedent of explaining yourself after the suspect is in cuffs is the least sec can do to calm the waves, even in Sybil. Nobody should have to learn the reason they were arrested/killed by sec in an ahelp. It's not an MRP-specific thing to tell someone why they're being arrested or executed, it's an NRP thing to be silent.
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Vekter
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Vekter » #681382

Lacran wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:02 pm
Vekter wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:54 pm
You should be adminhelping people interrupting valid arrests.
So when an assistant pushes me over while I'm walking someone with cuffs to the brig, or explaining the charges prior to an arrest what rule am I to tell the admin the assistant has broken?

Cos this has been a widespread thing for years, I can't really imagine not being laughed at and having it labelled an IC issue. Is there a ruling or something I've missed?
I would classify someone actively interrupting a valid arrest as greytiding. While individual incidents of greytiding aren't punishable, if it is being done enough by the same person, we will act on it.

Rule 1, precedent 4:
Unprovoked grief (occasionally known as greytiding), repeated cases of minor unprovoked grief, and unprovoked grief targeted towards specific players or groups (i.e. metagrudging) fall under rule 1. Admins may follow up on grief with allowing the affected parties to ignore normal escalation policy or measures such as warnings or bans.
Players are allowed to interfere with ongoing arrests, but they must have a valid reason to do so. "Security is shit" or "they're my friend OOC" isn't a valid reason.

That being said, you should not be breaking the rules just because you're worried other people might. An arrest should never be "Silently stun, cuff, drag to a cell, throw in, leave". If someone is actively dangerous or a flight risk, I can understand arresting them and bringing them in without talking, but you shouldn't be leaving them in a cell without them knowing why. I am not insinuating that every arrest needs to be some long, drawn out interaction between two people, but you can be bothered to tell someone you're arresting them before actually doing it.

You're expected to use your best judgement (and specific situations will be handled based on what exactly transpired) but you should not be wordlessly arresting people in most situations.
AliasTakuto wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
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PM: REDACTED->HotelBravoLima: Oh come on, knowing that these are hostile aliens is metagaming

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Lacran
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Lacran » #681389

Vekter wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:13 pm
Rule 1, precedent 4


You're expected to use your best judgement (and specific situations will be handled based on what exactly transpired) but you should not be wordlessly arresting people in most situations.
That's barely a resolution to the issue. Good luck getting something that minor on their notes. People can get away with greytiding for weeks before getting pulled up on it. Admins do eventually deal with them but you are virtually guaranteed to have atleast 2 per round.

If you have concrete evidence of a crime you don't need to read someone their charges prior to arrest. It's usually a lot easier and safer to do that while they are in custody or in the brig. Give them their charges and explain your evidence once you have them secured.

The situations where you don't silent arrest is when you believe the player is going to be somewhat compliant and won't resist, or you don't have concrete evidence. If you are going off hearsay you should atleast question them.

The easiest way to to straight up PDA them to come in for questioning if it's for something minor.
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Vekter
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Vekter » #681392

Lacran wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:38 pm That's barely a resolution to the issue. People can get away with greytiding for weeks before getting pulled up on it. Admins do eventually deal with them but you are virtually guaranteed to have atleast 2 per round.

If you have concrete evidence of a crime you don't need to read someone their charges prior to arrest. It's usually a lot easier and safer to do that while they are in custody or in the brig.

The situations where you don't silent arrest is when you believe the player is going to be somewhat compliant, or you don't have concrete evidence. If you are going off hearsay you should atleast question them.

The easiest way to to straight up PDA them to come in for questioning if it's for something minor.
It is a resolution to the issue and I'm sorry if it's not the one you wanted. There are going to be times where someone runs from you or resists arrests, or their friend tries to free them from you.

Things that are optional if you are convinced they're a flight risk:
  • Asking someone to come in for questioning.
  • Informing someone they are being arrested.
Things that are not optional:
  • Telling people why they are being arrested, either at the time of the arrest or when you get to the brig.
  • Setting a timer or assigning an equivalent punishment. (This is technically the Warden's job, but unless the shit has really hit the fan, you should be making sure it's being done.)
  • Ensuring the person you are arresting survives the ordeal. This means you will sometimes need to take the person you're arresting to medbay before you can process them. (This obviously doesn't include situations where you have to kill them due to them using lethal force.)
It is not a difficult ask to expect you to communicate with the people you are arresting. If you feel that it's unreasonable to ask you to at least tell someone why they're being arrested, you shouldn't be playing security.
AliasTakuto wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
Omega_DarkPotato wrote:This sucks, dude.
Spoiler:
Reply PM from-REDACTED/(REDACTED): i tried to remove the bruises by changing her gender

PM: Bluespace->Delaron: Nobody wants a mime's asscheeks farting on their brig windows.

PM: REDACTED->HotelBravoLima: Oh come on, knowing that these are hostile aliens is metagaming

[17:43] <Aranclanos> any other question ping me again
[17:43] <Vekter> Aranclanos for nicest coder 2015
[17:44] <Aranclanos> fuck you
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Lacran
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Lacran » #681394

To clarify I'm only using silent arrest to refer to not telling someone at the time of arrest. (Before they are cuffed)

I know a player needs to always be informed of their charges at some point of the brigging procedure.
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Lacran
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Lacran » #681398

Yeah I think there's a semantic issue here between "silent arrest" and "silent imprisonment"
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Vekter » #681399

Lacran wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 5:04 pm Yeah I think there's a semantic issue here between "silent arrest" and "silent imprisonment"
I'm still of the mindset that you shouldn't be silent arresting people unless you absolutely have to. You should ideally be telling people why they're being arrested after they've been cuffed/detained, not when you get back to the brig.
AliasTakuto wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
Omega_DarkPotato wrote:This sucks, dude.
Spoiler:
Reply PM from-REDACTED/(REDACTED): i tried to remove the bruises by changing her gender

PM: Bluespace->Delaron: Nobody wants a mime's asscheeks farting on their brig windows.

PM: REDACTED->HotelBravoLima: Oh come on, knowing that these are hostile aliens is metagaming

[17:43] <Aranclanos> any other question ping me again
[17:43] <Vekter> Aranclanos for nicest coder 2015
[17:44] <Aranclanos> fuck you
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Lacran
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Lacran » #681401

Vekter wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 5:05 pm
Lacran wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 5:04 pm Yeah I think there's a semantic issue here between "silent arrest" and "silent imprisonment"
I'm still of the mindset that you shouldn't be silent arresting people unless you absolutely have to. You should ideally be telling people why they're being arrested after they've been cuffed/detained, not when you get back to the brig.
I understand that, when it's safe to explain and when it isn't is obviously going to be up for interpretation. I play sec with 300 ping so if I expect resisting I won't be explaining prior cos I'm never getting you otherwise.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #681413

Right so, I went and tried talking to people as security and telling them their charges in the hallways, and immediately got murdered by Axle, so.

I don't think this policy is gonna work out. It's WAY too antag-sided.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Archie700 » #681583

Vekter wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 5:05 pm
Lacran wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 5:04 pm Yeah I think there's a semantic issue here between "silent arrest" and "silent imprisonment"
I'm still of the mindset that you shouldn't be silent arresting people unless you absolutely have to. You should ideally be telling people why they're being arrested after they've been cuffed/detained, not when you get back to the brig.
I argue that you are detained when you get back to the brig, or at the very least in an area not many people can get to. (bridge or hard-to-access places)

It is not a difficult ask to explain to people why they are being arrested. It is a difficult ask to do it when other people are actively attacking you or trying to free their friend. Security must ensure they are able to have the detainee in secure custody before reading them their crimes and rights, if greytiding is going to be allowed.
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Zybwivcz » #681609

Vekter wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:54 pm
Zybwivcz wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 6:51 am
Vekter wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:19 pm If sec players feel like they absolutely have to wordlessly arrest people and run them back to the brig to get anything done, then we have a problem.
Vekter wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:19 pm If
Tell me you don't play highpop LRP SEC without telling me you don't play highpop LRP SEC.


"SEC has to announce to the tider why he's being arrested before arresting him" is just a "SEC can't arrest tiders 90% of the time" policy but with extra steps.
You should be adminhelping people interrupting valid arrests.
Even I don't hate the admins enough to want a "90% of attempted arrests result in an ahelp" policy.
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RedBaronFlyer
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by RedBaronFlyer » #681622

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 5:36 pm Right so, I went and tried talking to people as security and telling them their charges in the hallways, and immediately got murdered by Axle, so.

I don't think this policy is gonna work out. It's WAY too antag-sided.
I'm tired so this argument is probably full of holes and shitty but here we go I guess:

That's kind of my issue with the way dynamic and sec policy is balanced. It's entirely up to security to "be the bigger person." Meanwhile, antags/crew can essentially do whatever with minimal consequence. Sure you can ahelp a shitter shoving you, but there's people who have been rulebreaking shitheads for months who haven't ever gotten punished. Ahelping is often a futile effort unless the guy is screaming "NIGGER" over and over again ICly.

A lot of mechanics in SS13 actively discourage roleplaying on a scenario that can become a combat scenario. Thus leading to security defaulting to baton + cuff + drag to the brig to actually talk to you about whatever. Trying to explain to someone that they're under arrest usually results in them running away, or them getting cuffed and the arresting officer getting shoved by crew. Few people do "oh damn they're actually roleplaying alright I'll roleplay back" especially if they're an antag. After all, in most scenarios, an antag actually roleplaying might result in them losing, which is unacceptable to some.

An antag wordlessly pulls out a gun and shoots a roleplaying sec officer, and no one bats an eye, but a sec officer batoning someone wordlessly has the server losing its mind. No wonder security is usually two overwhelmed guys that are usually dead by 40 minutes in. Roleplaying in a potential combat scenario is a prisoner's dilemma.

We have a system where sec has to do things by the books while being accosted by both the crew icly and OOCly and/or admins if an antag screamed enough about it, while also having an environment where there are 13+ antags running around on a 60 person shift. There are some Manuel rounds where it's 70 people on, and there is a single security officer or no officers at all. It's not because Manuel is "safe" or whatever, it's because security gets burned out from all the bullshit, even on the MRP server. Those rounds tend to be the ones that the station gets fucked the hardest by.

I don't even play or like security, yet I see that shit all the time. Security aren't saints or anything, far from it. Security, like heads of staff, tends to attract people who should never be put in a position of power. It just feels a bit lopsided towards antagonist. Instead of antags being a way to spice up the rounds, with the occasional station fuckening, antags (ESPECIALLY heretic and progtot) are instead designed around completely fucking up the station in its entirety. This is a bit of a problem since it's guarteed there will be traitors in rounds and more often than not there are also heretics. Most rounds tend to have MULTIPLE heretics and progtots, which means there are multiple station ending threats in every single round. Manuel does a catch-and-release system, and it's absolutely moronic. I've seen so many traitors/heretics fuck up the station to the point of half the crew (often more) dying because sec has to use kiddy gloves with round-ending threats.
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Super Aggro Crag wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 5:11 pm I assume he did it elsewhere because it's fucking goofball and he never half-asses his shitty ideas, he full asses them so both cheeks are absolutely slathered in shit
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Timberpoes
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Re: Miranda Rights, or similiar policy for Security

Post by Timberpoes » #687166

This is a highly technical area of play, with many competing interests.

However, we have looked at the previous complaint-spawned policy adjustment created during my previous term: viewtopic.php?f=54&p=639759#p639759

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules - Security Policy tab:
Security Policy wrote:6. Players have more leeway to resist arrests they don't understand the reason for.

When dealing with minor crimes where there are no realistic threats present, communicating the intent and the reason for an arrest to the player lowers confusion and makes it less likely a non-antag player may validly resist the arrest.
We'd like to expand the scope of that ruling, and we will be replacing Sec Policy 6 entirely with the following updated version.
6. Security meta-protections rely on communication when dealing with minor threats.
Security gameplay with limited meaningful communication in low threat situations can completely remove security meta-protections, falling back to standard escalation rules instead.
The headmin team all believe that in low-threat situations, security should be engaging in meaningful communication across all our servers. Obviously revs, cult, malf AI, nuke ops and the like are all high threat situations. We don't want to force security to have to run up to and bar RP with nuke ops. But they should make a minimum effort to communicate where it's safe and sensible to do so, or risk being subject to standard escalation if they fail to do that.

The flip side is that using your words to meaningfully communicate fully cements any and all of your metaprotections as security and an admin will find it very difficult not to rule in your favour in these cases.

Big dick bold edit: The fact sec generally can't be antags and players should overall treat them as if this was the case is a metaprotection that also gets lost. We have emphasised this point internally via an admin announcement.

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